stories:
Table Manners
How to Host a Turkey-Free Thanksgiving
Getting the meat eaters to do without
Dear Helena,
My wife and I are vegans. While the rest of my family is not, we nonetheless invited them for Thanksgiving dinner last year. We wanted to prepare as traditional a meal as possible for them without the turkey. Our family accepted and asked what to bring, to which we replied a salad. Then two days before Thanksgiving, we received both a call and an email from my brother and his wife asking if it was OK if they could bring a turkey (the sister-in-law offered to cook it here herself). We were insulted. How was my wife now supposed to prepare a large meal with a glad heart knowing our guests didn’t want to eat our food? They claimed it was “to help us out” and “for their kids to eat.”
—Save the Turkeys
Dear Save the Turkeys,
When you’re a guest in people’s homes, you must respect their wishes and customs. That holds true whether they’re asking you to take your cute boots off at their front door, or to refrain from carrying a slaughtered carcass across the threshold.
That said, to most Americans, being invited to a meatless Thanksgiving is like being tapped for an orgy in a church basement. They look forward all year to the savory smell of bird filling the house, its crisp brown skin, the drippings that get made into gravy, and the leftovers they can enjoy in sandwiches and soup. In other words, this is a special case, and therefore deserves a strategic and proactive communications strategy. You can prevent awkwardness by simply crafting the right invitation.
Be explicit. Explain that there won’t be a turkey, nor do you want there to be. It might seem harsh, but that level of bluntness will hopefully prevent your guests from asking if they can bring one.
Empathize and give an easy out. Say, “I realize that not having a turkey might be a real consideration for meat eaters, so I understand if you need to think about it and get back to me.” And be prepared for rejection. Some guests will decline, insist on hosting, or double-book so they can fill up on turkey at someone else’s house.
Stress the positive. Avoid striking a militant tone, as in, “I don’t want dead animal flesh polluting my house.” Simply explain: “There won’t be a turkey, and I would prefer it if you didn’t bring one, but I will be making X, Y, and Z.” Now is the time to rhapsodize about your chestnut and fig stuffing or some other deliciousness you have planned. Your excitement will be infectious.
Explain that you’ll have traditional elements. When guests fret about there being no turkey, and know they’re going to a vegetarian’s house, sometimes they worry that you’ll serve something like tempeh moussaka while the rest of the nation is having a Norman Rockwell–style feast. They’ll feel much better if you explain that there will be cranberry sauce and pumpkin pie. (If you are serving tempeh moussaka, best to let them know that too, of course.)
Offer to let guests bring a side dish. Then they’ll be doubly sure that there will be a familiar food they like. And asking people to help always makes them feel good. If their dish contains dairy or eggs, don’t demur. Your guests are making a sacrifice by giving up turkey. You could start a family feud if you insist they give up butter in their mashed potatoes as well.
Not yet sure about your Thanksgiving menu? Try our Thanksgiving for Beginners, which includes supereasy recipes for the staples, like cranberry sauce, sweet potatoes, and pumpkin pie. You decide whether or not to skip the turkey.
I am not a vegetarian, though turkey is my least favorite part of Thanksgiving, and I could easily give it up. That said, if I accepted an invitation at the home of a vegan, I would not expect them to serve meat, nor would I expect to bring my own. If it were that important to me, I would have an alternate meat filled dinner Wednesday night or Friday. To me the most important thing is to spend the time with people that you care about.
On the flip side, this article reminded me of a time when my cousin arrived empty handed to a Thanksgiving family dinner and announced that he was now a vegan. The only thing he could eat (because so many dishes had butter, milk, eggs, chicken broth, etc) was the salad, which he ate with gusto leaving none for the rest of us and I'm sure leaving him hungry. Awkward.
I think the key in any of these situations is communication before hand.
Turkey is tradition, people will want it on Thanksgiving. Sorry your oversensitive wife got all butt-hurt about it, but most people want to eat traditional foods on holidays, not new-wave vegan recipes that you are going to unload on them.
I'm a longtime, strict vegetarian (none of this "I eat fish/chicken/bacon" crap). I would have no problem with someone bringing a cooked/carved turkey to my home, as long as I didn't have to touch it.
On Thanksgiving, turkey is part of the deal. Many people expect and like it, especially kids. I wouldn't want my cousins, nieces and nephews not to have their favorite part of Thanksgiving because of my personal beliefs.
The obvious solution would have been to host a different holiday that isn't so food-centric. In most families, its difficult to refuse an invitation once it's put out there, and now you've put them in a position where their only options are to refuse your invitation, which would probably cause a whole new set of problems, or let you ruin their Thanksgiving.
Helena's advice is good, but since this is the LW's own brother, I think he can be more frank and honest about his Thanksgiving. The brother really was out of line asking to bring a turkey to a vegan Thanksgiving (or even more generally, asking to bring a main dish to a meal hosted by someone else). The LW can politely let him know that he's hurt and offended and that no, there will be no turkey at this meal, and if that's not okay, the brother can feel free to eat elsewhere.
gjd is 100% correct, why choose Thanksgiving as the holiday to host when you have a non-veg family? While I would love to attend a vegan dinner party, I'm not sure I would want to do it on Thanksgiving. If I was going to a vegan's house for T-giving, I would not bring a turkey, though and that was rude.
gjd does make a great point about this being the most food centric of the holidays. Having said that, the majority of holidays tend to have some food traditions, and unless you have grown up in a vegan family, those food traditions likely aren't vegan. I'm not sure many families would be too psyched about a vegan fourth of July or Christmas either. Part of being a good guest is accepting what is served to you. Maybe because we have often had to celebrate Thanksgiving on alternate days because of work schedules, I would just do my own turkey/bacon/butter/sour cream/etc dinner sometime in the vicinity of Thanksgiving, and enjoy what my vegan sibling had to offer on the day itself. If nothing else, you can give thanks (silently) that you aren't a vegan the other 364 days of the year.
Oh for heavens sake. It's a meal. If you HAVE to have Turkey, make one at home the day before and enjoy the sandwiches when you get home after the meal. Contrary to apparent belief, this day is NOT about food, it is about being thankful for ALL that we have. Seems pretty counterproductive to have a family feud over what is or isn't on the table, besides there will no doubt be plenty of other dishes to argue about.
While I agree that it is just a meal, we all know the memories associated with food and the bonding that happens at meals. I think it's selfish to expect everyone to adhere to your wishes but not consider theirs. Vegan cuisine has come a long way, but to non-vegans, most of it wont taste the same at all. So, 2 vegans get what they want and the rest of the family isn't thrilled? I'm guessing the holiday should be hosted elsewhere where there can be a turkey and vegan dishes alike.
Yes, they can make your own traditional meal on a different day, but it is pretty expensive. If you have a small family or are single, the cost and effort may not be worth it.
Why is it that veggies/vegans insist that everyone cater to their dietary preferences but God forbid they should have to cater to carnivores? It smacks of a conversion attempt--"ooh, look how tasty and HEALTHY everything is, why would you want to eat that poor innocent turkey CAN'T YOU SEE MEAT IS MURDER YOU HEATHENS!!" Moral of the story--vegans, if your family isn't vegan don't invite them to a holiday dinner where they expect traditional foods. Give them the fake soy meatloaf and dairy-free mashed potatoes at a less emotionally charged time.
Good suggestions, Helena. This sort of mealtime fussiness is why my husband and child and I have begun to prefer nice intimate holiday dinners with just the three of us! :-)
This letter is so obtuse that I actually thought it might be a joke, however...
Asking a family of carnivores to your vegan home for Thanksgiving smacks of asking-for-trouble, so I seriously doubt that that STT can be surprised that his "generous" invitation took a turn for the dramatique.
Aspiring to produce a vegan meal sans turkey (stuffing, mashed, pie, bean cass... since all those things are traditional, delicious, and vegan-ically verboten) is naive at best, passive-aggressive at probable.
And if there are (non-vegan) kids involved... really???
I by no means think that vegans are barred from perfectly delightful holidays insofar as they choose not to eat flesh, but this smacks of inviting a fight. The OP (writer-inner) can choose how much he will precipitate the same.
I am surprised by how mean spirited a few of these comments are. Whatever your dietary restrictions, the urge to host and feed the ones you love, especially on a holiday designated for giving thanks, runs deep in all of us. "Save the Turkeys" family should feel appreciative (dare I say thankful) for the invitation. As Azizeh says, preparing a Thanksgiving meal can be expensive, not to mention stressful and time-consuming. Props to "Save the Turkeys" for offering to take on the hard work and expense to provide their family with a delicious, loving and hopefully harmonious meal.
And I agree, if they or their kids can't forgo the turkey for one year (there's always next years feast!), they could cook turkey at home, or come up with an alternative that satisfied them without hurting the hosts' feelings. Haven't we all been to parties or events where we knew the food wouldn't be to our taste or dietary requirements and chosen to eat a little something before or after?
Best of luck for a happy Thanksgiving!
I am vegan, and never made a peep at family Thanksgivings, just calmly eating salad and enjoying the company. A few years ago, I started hosting the family the weekend after "Turkey Day" for a "No-Turkey Day". My (small) family would enjoy both get-togethers and we would all be thankful for the bounty of food, both veg and non-veg. But then a funny thing happened... the last couple of years my family has preferred "No-Turkey Day", and now our holiday dinners are just me hosting a vegan spread. This came with no push from me, and I was surprised to see my carnivore family ASK to have a vegan Thanksgiving. I think I'm a decent cook *blush*, and it's such a compliment to have everyone devouring the hearty food I've put out. My mom doesn't even make a turkey at home anymore.
Bottom line - food is so wrapped up in tradition and emotion and is so personal that we have to avoid the battlefields and concentrate on what the holiday is really about: family, and thanks for the bounty of the harvest and gratitude for our place in this world. If a vegan family has invited you to share their meal, don't insist on bringing a corpse. And vegans, don't use a family gathering to hop on the soapbox and make everyone else feel judged. There are over 350 other days of the year to discuss moral choices. Coexist. :)
MandalayVA: read my post. Then comment.
The brother asking to bring a turkey to a vegan dinner two days prior is rude. He could have just as easily had his own turkey dinner before or after the vegan dinner. However, as for the "innocent" vegan letter writer, the fact the letter is signed "Save the Turkeys" proves that he/wife were trying to send a political message during the holidays - that's rude too.
Vegans are such fun!
SeitansMinion, what a delightful story. And what a great way to introduce people gently, but non-confrontationally, to vegan foods. Too bad the original letter writer didn't try this approach. (Btw, great handle!)
I agree with other posters that, given that the brother and family had agreed to go to the vegan Thanksgiving, they should plan to have their turkey on another day. Though I do wonder if it was clear from the outset that that the meal was going to be vegan. I can easily imagine that the vegans, on saying, "We'll host next year" would assume people understood it would be a vegan meal, while the carnivores assumed that the vegans were saying they would host the gathering and serve a traditional T-day meal because it's a special family occasion, even though it's not what they themselves eat.
I can already hear the outcry from people saying, "Of course the brother should have understood it would be vegan!" But we have a friend who is vegetarian and hosts a big T-day dinner every year, with turkey and the whole thing. Admittedly, she does this along with her husband who is not vegetarian and whose tradition it had been before they married, but my point is that some vegetarians are willing to host traditional turkey dinners. Insert traditional caveat on assumptions.
invinotheresverde, what makes you think I didn't? Kudos to you if you're cool with people bringing meat into your house. My post was regarding the letter writer.
Isn't this the same woman who suggested vegetarians bring their own stuff to a barbeque so the hosts don't have to deal with it?
Thanksgiving is different than just a regular meal. Like many have said above, it's tradition, emotion and personal feelings all wrapped up into one day. What would the OP rather have: a perfect vegan Thanksgiving with half of their guest elsewhere getting their fix of traditional foods or a vegan + turkey Thanksgiving with everyone celebrating and happy? They're not making the OP cook the turkey, just letting her know ahead of time that they're bringing it. Besides, they could've shown up with a roaster full of turkey the day of!
An invitation is a set of instructions. If you can't abide by even one of that set of instructions, then you're obliged to decline the invitation.
There are several wise observations on this thread-
Vegans trying to have a large dinner on Thanksgiving really, deep down, does sound like somebody's asking for trouble. Especially if you have people from out of town over.
This was a good idea- the omnivores should cook their own turkey and leave it at home for enjoying later if they plan to attend the vegan dinner. If they want nothing to do with meat, what makes you think it's any different because you bring it over? It's still meat in their house. If they really don't mind, fine, just be very, very sure before you ask.
I'm not sure I'd go to a vegan Thanksgiving dinner on Thanksgiving. I really love turkey on Thanksgiving, Especially the way it smells cooking and the way it goes so perfectly with everything else. I love getting it ready for the grill and the rituals of fixing it and all the things we do at home as traditions. Not saying they should do it, too, but they shouldn't get their noses out of joint if I don't attend.
All the proselytizers- that means both carnivores and vegans- need to stop it. Right now. Your rights end when they step on mine and vice versa. I will not preach my eating habits to you, and expect the same in return. If we can gently tease each other about it, so much the better, as long as no feelings get hurt and nobody gets up on a soapbox.
Since the OP was dealing with family, they all should know better. Everybody pull the bunch out of your smallclothes and talk it out like adults.
I always chuckle a little at people who seem to believe that they will starve to death in a snowbank on the way home if they don't have "their" foods at ONE meal.
I don't eat meat, but have cooked thanksgiving turkeys and easter hams for other people, BUT, on the occasions when i've had dinner parties that are completely meat-free, i'd find it pretty odd for anyone to show up with a side of chicken. My family dinners back home, thankfully include un-turkeyed stuffing, and sometimes gravy, and there is an enormous choice of foods that I never missed the turkey even before I ever gave it up (I always preferred the side dishes-this year we had a sweet potato pie, a cheese and onion pie, roasted root veg, potatoes etc etc...I could barely move...and that was before dessert)
With a family dinner, if it's communal, pot-luck deal , or people agreeing to bring a dessert or something, all's well. But this sounds like a "no need to bring anything" dinner. Host would likely feel a bit disgruntled if they also wanted to bring their own dish of potatoes etc either.
Seitansminions, you had me until you had to throw out the "corpse". A corpse typically is human body by definition. That's a little over the top.
Well, I could enjoy a vegan feast nearly any time, except Thanksgiving. No, I won't dissolve into a pool of bubbles and tears if I don't get "my" dish, but what with tradition and all, I'm over a half-century old and you know what? I want turkey on Thanksgiving. I hate that it makes me sound like an old fart, but there you have it. I really, really like having roasted whole turkey on Thaksgiving. So shoot me.
im nomad is right, the corpse reference was one of those -gotcha- looks into somebody's agenda, IMO too.
It's just a habit for me to use words like "corpse" to refer to the dead bodies of animals -a little bit of "call it like it is", I guess. Our culture has so removed the tidily packaged supermarket meat from its origin that when talking about my reasons for not eating meat, I try to jar people into connecting to the origins of it.
That said, this discussion was not the place for it. The debate was about something different.
corpse – noun
1. a dead body, usually of a human being.
2. something no longer useful or viable: rusting corpses of old cars.
3. obsolete. a human or animal body, whether alive or dead.
I didn't read corpse as confrontational at all, or at least I wasn't offended by it. And I think it's certainly fair to use it to describe the dead animals we eat - this coming from a corpse eater. Vegetarian folks I know use the term somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
If a vegan friend were to invite me to Thanksgiving, I'd likely have some questions about what was to be served well in advance - surprised this did not come up in this situation. Talking about this sort of thing in advance can iron out a lot of problems.
It sounds to me like the parents were OK with the invite but when the lack of turkey was discussed with the kids there was dissent in the ranks. I imagine the brother was asking if they could bring meat to pacify the kids, who had only just been informed that this year thanksgiving would be different. At a young age looking forward to things that are not forthcoming is tremendously disappointing.
I don't eat meat and while I could deal with someone eating cold meat in my house, the smell of cooking flesh would be repulsive to me, and I would want my oven sandblasted clean afterwards!
The point made above about supermarket packaging removing meat from it's origin is interesting, because I think perhaps vegetarians are removing people from their origins too. Opposable thumbs, the teeth we have, and the brainpower to make tools, hunt and harness fire make us pretty good omnivores. I do think it's important to think about where the plastic wrapped meat came from and how it was raised, but I have no ethical problem with being at the top of the food chain.
If the hosts made it clear that the meal was going to be vegan from the get-go then the family members should either have declined or accepted the vegan restrictions. Am I the only person whose entire family doesn't get together for Thanksgiving every single year? Sometimes we go to my sister's house, sometimes to my in-laws house, sometimes I invite people over to our house. It's not always exactly the same group of people and I don't think it would be particularly weird or offensive if the brother just said "no thank you, we are having dinner at home/at wife's in-laws/with friends/whatever" if they didn't want to pursue the vegan option.
The whole vegan-must-be-proselityzing-by-inviting-family-to-Thanksgiving thing seems like an overly dramatic interpretation to me but maybe there are families out there that "who hosts Thanksgiving" really is a big emotionally charged deal, so as with most things, YMMV.
Mandalay: You're lumping all veggies/vegans into one inflexible blanket statement. There are closed and open minded people of all dietary preferences.
Disclaimer: I'm not a vegan. I'm just engaged to a lactose intolerant and we are vegetarian. The elephant in the room of this discussion is that a vegan thanksgiving is, um, not necessarily undesirable hippie food.
Roasted vegetables? Vegan. Homemade foccacia, or Bittman's no knead bread? Vegan. Gravy? Easily made from store bought or homemade vegetable stock, always gets eaten before the meat gravy at my omni family Thanksgiving, vegan. Sweet potatoes? Ditch the marshmallows for pecans and brown sugar, use earth balance instead of butter, vegan. Mashed potatoes? Garlic, rosemary and soy creamer, even my intensely critical father doesn't notice it is... vegan. Cranberry sauce? Vegan. Stuffing? Use vegetable stock, vegan. Dessert? I usually make a pumpkin cheesecake because vegan cream cheese is spooky good, but vegan pumpkin pie is still achievable without weird tempeh tastes and hey, you still get to pile it with Safeway non-dairy whipped topping (which is, oh well you know.) Seasonal sorbets are tasty and non-threatening. Gingerbread cookies. Poached pears with caramel sauce. It's not that hard.
If you miss the wow factor of a table centerpiece, http://www.bonappetit.com/magazine/20... Stuffed squash is pretty and tasty. I've made a similar one with olive oil instead of butter, delicious. So I guess, everyone, chill out.
SeitansMinion (great handle!), I had to smile at your "tell it like it is" explanation for your wry use of the term "corpse" in regard to the turkey. We're irreverent that way at our omnivore home, too. For instance, my husband loves French dip and happily refers to the juices as "blood" rather than "dip," "squeezings," etc. :-)
I am not coming
peta2 is now the largest youth movement of any social change organization in the world.
peta2 has 267,000 friends on MySpace and 91,000 Facebook fans.
A few years ago, PETA was the top-ranked charity when a poll asked teenagers what nonprofit group they would most want to work for. PETA won by more than a 2 to 1 margin over the second place finisher, The American Red Cross, with more votes than the Red Cross and Habitat for Humanity combined.
"A diet that can lead to heart attacks, cancer, and numerous other diseases cannot be a natural diet," writes Keith Akers in A Vegetarian Sourcebook. "A diet that pillages our resources of land, water, forests, and energy cannot be a natural diet. A diet that causes the unnecessary suffering and death of billions of animals each year cannot be a natural diet."
I understand there are conservative Christians who fear vegetarianism...which is kind of like being afraid of nonsmoking, nondrinking, or recycling. Ronald J. Sider of Evangelicals for Social Action, in his 1977 book, Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, pointed out that 220 million Americans were eating enough food (largely because of the high consumption of grain fed to livestock) to feed over one billion people in the poorer countries.
A pamphlet put out by Compassion Over Killing says raising animals for food is one of the leading causes of both pollution and resource depletion today. According to a recent United Nations report, Livestock's Long Shadow, raising chickens, turkeys, pigs, and other animals for food causes more greenhouse gas emissions than all the cars, trucks and other forms of transportation combined. Researchers from the University of Chicago similarly concluded that a vegetarian diet is the most energy efficient, and the average American does more to reduce global warming emissions by not eating animal products than by switching to a hybrid car.
A 2007 journal published by the American Dietetic Association found "meat protein production required 26 times more water than vegetable protein on rain-fed lands." The journal further states that dieticians "can encourage eating that is both healthful and conserving of soil, water, and energy by emphasizing plant sources of protein and foods that have been produced with fewer agricultural inputs."
"Livestock are one of the most significant contributors to today's most serious environmental problems. Urgent action is required to remedy the situation."
---Union Nations' Food and Agriculture Association
70% of the grain grown and 50% of the water consumed in the U.S. are used by the meat industry. (Audubon Society)
Over 260 million acres of U.S. forest have been cleared to grow grain for livestock. (Greenpeace)
It takes nearly one gallon of fossil fuel and 5,200 gallons of water to produce just one pound of conventionally fed beef. (Mother Jones)
Farmed animals produce an estimated 1.4 billion tons of fecal waste each year in the U.S. Much of this untreated waste pollutes the land and water.
The number of animals killed for food in the United States is 70 times larger than the number of animals killed in laboratories, 30 times larger than the number killed by hunters and trappers, and 500 times larger than the number of animals killed in animal pounds.
“If anyone wants to save the planet,” says Paul McCartney in a PETA interview, “all they have to do is stop eating meat. That’s the single most important thing you could do. It’s staggering when you think about it. Vegetarianism takes care of so many things in one shot: ecology, famine, cruelty. Let’s do it! Linda was right. Going veggie is the single best idea for the new century.”
Being a strict vegetarian (vegan) my entire life (over 70 years), I usually have holiday dinners with other vegetarians or want-to-be vegetarians. Everyone brings any vegan dish that they desire. For Thanksgiving we have Tofurky. Others are welcome with the understanding that there will be no dead animal body parts or bodily fluids for dinner..
I understand that the family wants their T-day turkey, but they should have thought of that before accepting the invite at a vegan house. It's rude to insist on bringing the main meal, because it implies you don't trust your host to provide. Plus, nothing's stopping them from cooking their own traditional feast the night before/after/whenever.
As a vegetarian, I probably wouldn't try to host a meat-centric holiday (aren't they all?), but I get why they would want to. Once in a while, you just want to be the one who welcomes everyone, instead of the guest.
VasuMurti: Interesting information, but frankly, and not to sound like a dickwad, I really couldn't care less. The human race is hell-bent on destroying itself, in my opinion, and even if the entire world were to suddenly wake up tomorrow and decide to become strict organic vegan locavores, we would still over-reproduce until even that was no longer sustainable. Our determination to sabotage ourselves never fails to utterly baffle me.
(In the past, I have toyed with the idea of vegetarianism, not due to any objection to eating animals but due to the objection of the treatment of animals in Canada and the US and because as a student, I can't afford free-range organic meats, despite how much I would like to. Unfortunately, now I have a severe health condition that absolutely prohibits vegetarianism: my diet must be extremely low in fibre and legumes, and I have severe malabsorption, so it is not an option. I eat a pound of sausage every day for breakfast as per doctor's orders, love it, have great cholesterol, and I'm stick thin! *grins*)
Sounds like PETA sent in one of it's minions here.
I don't eat meat for a number of reasons, one of which already outlined by vorpal, I disagree with the treatment of animals in corporate farming environments. I don't have any desire to convert anyone or launch discussions to friends about any of it, even if I do think people are too far removed from their food sources.
Anyway, sophiewest brings up a good issue about the elephant in the room. I do wonder how many who are quick to dismiss such a meal have really ever eaten a quality gourmet level meal that is meat-free. It's not all twigs and berries or ground tofu surprise.
And while I realize that thanksgiving is often a reason to have a turkey, it's primary reason IMHO is to gather with friends and family and give thanks over a meal. And if you're willing to give a pass on that because there's no turkey there, i feel a little sorry for you.
@Dorian KTB: Thanks! Seitan and I go way back! ;)
And I think it's interesting that your family jokes about the "real" names of what they're eating. There are lots of vegans that would disagree with me, but I think that if you are fully informed about what you're eating and able to make that choice, have at 'er. The problem is that most people can't stand the thought of eating a "dead body" rather than "ham", or "blood" rather than "au jus". Words are powerful, and the fact that euphemisms abound in the world of food
shows that most people would be uncomfortable with their choices if they knew how they arrived on the plate.
So, kudos for keeping an honest and irreverent household! :)
I can't help noticing here that the noncarnivore side seems to need to have the last word which is interesting to me. Again, it speaks of agendas.
I agree wholeheartedly with the house rules you specified at the beginning of your response.
My first impression is, "How hostile!" I mean, what if Xians wanted to "help out" by bringing their delicious baked ham to a Jewish home for the Xian friends? Eating non-kosher food won't kill any Jews, but it does damage them with uncleanliness, which is similar to how many non-meat eaters feel about animal products.
I hope "Wife" was able to let go of her hurt and anger, to see this as a teaching opportunity: Most kids prefer a carb-y dish--like potatoes--to meat, anyday. Seriously, try to serve pork chops WITHOUT apples or ketchup to most kids, and you'll get sulks to outright tantrums.
In-laws are thoughtless people. I hope they take the care to observe their kids' spontaneous choices, recognize their error and start RIGHT NOW to correct their attitude/behavior, so it doesn't become the kids' inheritance.
"The truth is also that life isn’t possible without death, that no matter what you eat, someone has to die to feed you."
If this ever happened at a family event, I would just bring a grill and a cooler and tailgate in the driveway. Once everyone has had their fill of salad and whatnot, we could cruise.
Oy vey.
People eat meat.. there isn't a crime in that.. But there is also not a crime in making a health or ethical decision to NOT eat meat.
Which is where I stand.
This is actually perfect for me because I am hosting Thanksgiving this year.. since the family decided to start rotating the host of holiday dinners, and it will be a vegetarian meal. Christmas, my parents are hosting.. and I can tell you all the meat the didn't get at my dinner they will certainly get at my parents. (and then some)
I have told everyone that it will be vegetarian (so if they want to make their own turkeys for left overs they can) and that it will remain a vegetarian meal since it is in my home.. if they give me grief i remind them of all the times they put bacon in the potatoes and ham in the green beans.. and how I was still grateful for the roll of bread and wine I consumed at Thanksgiving dinner.
Fortunately for me, I have a good reputation in the family for being a great cook-- and most of the time people don't even notice my dinners are meatless.. (as most wouldn't with any vegetarian cook) and we have a little thing called respect in my family.. I say grace with my Christan family members, even if i think its silly, and I don't make comment about how unhealthy and disgusting I think eating meat is when I am around my meat eating family members.. and I expect the same respect in my home-- and I get it. At least I am not only offering them bread to eat as many of them have done to me, "forgetting" that I have been a vegetarian since I was 14.
The moral of the story is.. Stand your ground, and be honest about the comestible carnival you will be offering, so If they would like to make a meat item for themselves at home, they can.
Back in the '80s, I was a huge Smiths fan. I've got nearly all their cassettes, but missed the opportunity to see them in concert in 1986. Their 1985 album, Meat is Murder, was on college radio stations everywhere. In an era when rock and pop seemed swamped in causes, the Smiths added their weight to (lead singer) Morrissey's support for animal rights.
"I think as long as human beings are so violent towards animals, there will be war," he argued. "It might sound absurd, but if you really think about the situation it all makes sense. When there's this absolute lack of sensitivity where life is concerned, there will always be war."
Back in 1985, Morrissey struggled to articulate a dualistic persona with a classic example of verbal doublethink: "Personally, I'm an incurably peaceable character. But where does that get you? Nowhere. You have to be violent...It seems to me now that when you try to change things in a peaceable manner, you're actually wasting your time and you're laughed out of court," he argued.
"...the only way we can get rid of such things as the meat industry, and other things like nuclear weapons, is by giving people a taste of their own medicine."
Ask Morrissey about the terrorist bombing of butcher shops in England, and he still coldly replies: "One dead butcher isn't such a great loss."
Peter Singer warned about this kind of thinking in Animal Liberation:
"We may be convinced that a person who is abusing animals is entirely callous and insensitive; but we lower ourselves to that level if we physically harm or threaten physical harm to that person. Violence can only breed more violence...The strength of the case for Animal Liberation is its ethical commitment. We occupy the high moral ground and to abandon it is to play into the hands of those who would oppose us."
Just a note about Pete Singer. His ideas of the value of life are argued in such a way that they must be taken wholesale. If you disregard any one component of his logic, you invalidate the entirety of his beliefs. One of these ideas is that infanticide is perfectly okay, morally justifiable, and that our society would greatly benefit from adopting it as a practice. His pseudo-veganism cannot be divorced from this support for infanticide. If you're going to advocate a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle, I wouldn't suggest using Singer's ideas in your argument. In many ways, he is a brilliant man, but his work relies on assumptions that the average person would describe as absolutely abhorrent.
It seems simple to me. If you accept an invitation, respect those who invited you. The hosts made it clear it was a vegan Thanksgiving. If you say "yes" don't bring meat. Otherwise say "no" than go somewhere else for your turkey.
I love food AND I love my family. I get to eat every day 3 (or more) times a day. I don't get to see my family that often. I can go one meal without what I want because family is more important than that. It blows my mind people would avoid spending time with their family because of a missing dish at a meal.
A vegan Thanksgiving sounds great as long as the cook is good AND THERE IS NO TOFURKY or other reliance on process soy food.
I'm not a vegan, not even vegetarian, but if someone were to invite me to Thanksgiving dinner and serve a meal composed of dishes from "Great Chefs Cook Vegan," I'd be thrilled.
I agree that asking to bring the main course to a vegan dinner is extremely rude. However, for all of those touting that a vegan dinner can be very satisfying, I should point out a few things. Roasted vegetables obviously will be delicious. Vegan pumpkin pie? I'm sorry but I have tried numerous versions and none can match up to the non-vegan, eggy pie. Personally, that would hurt me the most, not the turkey. Also, I do recognize the taste of soy milk (not pleasant!) and would not want it in anything, especially mashed potatoes. I wish vegans would realize that they may like some of these substitutes simply because they're used to them, but for someone who is not, they are much more obviously different from the original... and not always in a good way. However, I also feel family is more important than anything and I would simply eat my eggy pumpkin pie and non-soyified potatoes on another day.
VasaMurti- I literally can't believe you're citing PETA as an agency advocating anything to do with care and respect towards animals. One of PETA's stated goals is to end companion animals (read: pets), and how do they do that? They run one of the highest kill-shelters in the United States. They believe all domesticated animals should be killed. There is nothing humane about this organization. I'm afraid you're doing a disservice to the message of humane veaganism or vegetarianism when you link those ideals to PETA. Frankly, it makes me want to skip my salad for dinner and have a steak.
And I apologize for hijacking this thread (or, really, to continue the hijacking). I emailed the moderators at chowhound but I guess they think this an ok digression, so I couldn't just let it stand without commenting in turn, sorry.
The host sets the tone. After all it s their home. Good etiquette should warrant the guests to respect the host/hostess wishes. The guests should look at this as a new 'cultural' experience and bring their own vegan dish. Attitude is key. It's not a question of trying to convert to your point of view. It's a question of respect for your host. Ideally the host/hostess would accommodate the non vegan by cooking some traditional dishes that don't involve dead animals;) Oh and by the way this rule should go both ways. A vegan should have the same attitude when being invited to a carnivore's home.