stories : Table Manners
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Ham on Rye, Extra SadismIs it OK for a restaurant to abuse its customers? |
Dear Helena,
I was at a well-regarded Chinese restaurant with some friends, and the owner told us he’d order for the group. I’m a vegetarian, so I objected because I feared there wouldn’t be enough dishes I could eat. He started to yell at me, kicked me out, and told me to never come back.
I feel like part of the reason people like this place so much is because it’s so hard-core. But I didn’t like it at all. Shouldn’t people in the hospitality industry make themselves hospitable towards customers? Is it ever OK for them to boss you around?
—Anti–Stockholm Syndrome
Dear Anti–Stockholm Syndrome,
In America, most restaurants follow the “have it your way” philosophy of Burger King. If a restaurant has rules (a topic that Chowhounds have tackled), patrons are quick to compare the proprietor to Seinfeld’s Soup Nazi.
But in other countries the customer isn’t always king. A few years ago my husband and I were in Brittany, and we went to a café for breakfast. It was just past noon. We wanted coffee and croissants, but the waiter refused to give us any croissants, even though we could see them behind the counter. In France, you only eat croissants for breakfast. We ended up having a plate of fruits de mer instead, and enjoyed our meal.
Often, Soup Nazi types are culinary purists. Their view is that if you insist on customizing everything you eat, you lose the chance to taste their food the way it’s supposed to taste. Brian Spangler, owner of Apizza Scholls in Portland, Oregon, won’t let customers order more than three toppings on their pizzas. People are used to ordering what artisan pizza makers call “garbage pies.” But, says Spangler, when the dough is good, it doesn’t need to be loaded with toppings. Besides, he explains, a garbage pie won’t cook properly. “Any moisture added to the basic pizza slows down the cooking process,” he says.
Rules aren’t always designed to make the food better, of course. Occasionally the restaurant owner just hates people. Tony Persuade, a.k.a. LA’s Crêpe Nazi, has plastered his restaurant Crepe to Go with snippy signs, demanding that patrons decide on their order before they get to the counter (“unless you’re a kid or an IDIOT”) and prohibiting “stupid questions.” One sign forbids laughing at the signs.
The vegan Montreal restaurant Spirite Lounge doesn’t let customers order dessert unless they’ve finished their entire entrée, and won’t let them back in the restaurant if they don’t finish their dessert. Proprietor Rozer Noel says he’s trying to prevent food waste. He also says he doesn’t post his menu in the window of the restaurant, or allow prospective diners to peruse it before sitting down, because “food has nothing to do with pleasure.”
It might seem like such misanthropes should get out of the restaurant business, but many patrons enjoy being bossed around, either because they find it entertaining, or because it creates an aura of in-clubness for those who learn the rules. One Spirite Lounge diner writes on the vegetarian restaurant site HappyCow, “We all cleared our plates with the exception of me who dared to leave a date stone and half a spoon-ful of slop … me and family were kicked out … It was hilarious.”
One can be uncompromising without being rude. When I was still new to the ways & foodways of Italy, a chef-owner once refused to serve me a certain type of pasta with a certain type of sauce—but he did it almost with regrets, shaking his head sadly, explaining why they didn't go together, & suggesting a pairing that did.
Bullying is incomprehensible to me as a business practice, all cultural differences aside.
I feel there is more to the story that you are not letting on. I don't believe this guy kicked you out because you were a vegetarian. That doesn't make sense.
If you're trying to promote a food that needs to be approached the way it was intended, there's better ways to communicate that than berating the people who give you money.
The purists tend to be a little exasperating and almost insufferable, but they mean well and as much as I hate to admit it, they're often right.
Unfortunately, they're overshadowed by people who use the abuse gimmick to mask the fact that they're not very versatile in the kitchen or that they're using average ingredients straight off the Sysco trucks. I'd say Helena's correspondent wasn't actually kicked out of that restaurant for being a vegetarian, but for deviating from the owner's set menu -- would we be surprised to learn that the owner "ordering for the group" was giving every table the same thing that night?
Wow, going to a restaurant where the owner thinks “food has nothing to do with pleasure", sounds awful. If that were true, why even bother going out to eat? You could eat gruel at home, and save some cash.
You may (or may not) enjoy the film 'Big Night' (1996), where Tony Shalhoub plays an Italian chef with similar ideas for his patrons.
Great movie. Despite not 'having it your way', I think in this instance you'd like to try the wonders he'd put in front of you.
Stanley Tucci stars.
The original question on the "well regarded" Chinese restaurant is puzzling. I suspect that the vegetarian in his/her anti-meat zeal set the owner off somehow. That, or abuse is the new MSG.
Some of the other stuff is hilarious.
Can't have a croissant after breakfast? They are right there. Being "aged to perfection" for tomorrow? Staff has dibs on them for lunch?
"Don't laugh at the signs." Civil rights suit for attempting to curtail my freedom of expression.
No dessert until you finish your dinner. Food has nothing to do with pleasure. Who said vegans have a sense of humor? That one's must have been surgically removed.
I question whether that Rozer Noel quote is inaccurate or taken out of context. I've been to Spirite Lounge a few times and while there is no menu and you basically just have to eat what you're served, I never got the impression from the owners that the patrons weren't meant to find pleasure in the food. The food isn't fantastic but it's not like they serve you mountains of gruel and force you to lick your plate.
Their concept is quite gimmicky but some people enjoy it for that reason. They're not complete hard-asses though, and they're actually really nice people! If you don't think you're that hungry or if you're intimidated by having to eat everything, they give you the option of ordering smaller options or fewer courses. The idea is that you should be made aware of how much food is often wasted unnecessarily.
Another Montreal institution that would've been a great example for this story is Wilensky's. They have rules there about their sandwich called the Special and have signs up about it. They refuse to serve it without mustard, and they will never ever cut it in half for you. If you attempt to order it without mustard you'll get mustard anyway. Their explanation is "that's just the way it's always been."
Their concept is quite gimmicky but some people enjoy it for that reason. They're not complete hard-asses though, and they're actually really nice people! If you don't think you're that hungry or if you're intimidated by having to eat everything, they give you the option of ordering smaller options or fewer courses. The idea is that you should be made aware of how much food is often wasted unnecessarily.
Another Montreal institution that would've been a great example for this story is Wilensky's. They have rules there about their sandwich called the Special and have signs up about it. They refuse to serve it without mustard, and they will never cut it in half for you. If you attempt to order it without mustard you'll get mustard anyway. Their explaination is that "that's just the way it's always been."
Mean is mean no matter what the cultural excuse. People pay money for ambience as well as food and if they were mistreated, the money would stop for any establishment. I am amazed at the little things I have seen happen across the bar or between wait staff and patrons in resto's that I have frequented or worked in. I would be more concerned for the difficult patron and the waiter that seems to be taking the grief they are handing out than the other way...
This reminds me of the Wiener's Circle hot dog stand in Lincoln Park, Chicago, which a friend took me to on a visit. Late at night, when the drunk post-bar crowd shuffles in, the staff turns abusive. Then the crowd turns abusive. People apparently love this, as was evident by the line of cabs pulling up and unloading packs of people, many of whom didn't seem to even order anything. I found it incredibly disturbing, with the staff yelling out explitives and the crowd responding with violent, degrading language. When it descended into a racial disaster (crowd is mostly white, staff is black), we left, but I was shaken for days. I didn't even get to try any of their food, but it seemed to me that their business is NOT based on food, but on the abusive staff, and the fact that the patrons can treat them however they'd like.
I'm surprised that no one yet has mentioned Shopsin's here. Its a NY City diner-type place that has a HUGE menu, and a VERY cranky owner, who will toss you out if you break the rules. They tell you on the menu that they cannot accomodate "severe food allergies". No more than 4 in a party. No separate checks. EVERYONE at the table must order a meal. And when your finished, get the heck out! For those who want ambiance and civility, well, there are a million other restaurants in NYC for that (and Kenny Shopsin will tell you himself "where to go").
And then there is Durgin Park, a restaurant in Boston that is famous for its "tart-tongued" waitresses. I've only eaten then once, but our waitress that night did not disappoint -- an older lady with a genuine "kiss my grits" attitude. If you're ready for it, you can handle it.
Personally, I want my service people as obsequious as possible. But that''s just me.
This reminds me of the old story about the american visiting France who wanted to eat his dessert pastry with his coffee. The only way he could do it was to hide the dessert from the waiter, leaving an empty plate, so the waiter would bring his coffee. The waiter insisted that the coffee would ruin the taste of the delicate pastry. I'm not sure if people who work at restaurants are permitted to comment but I am sure they have some interesting takes. I'm thinking of the time my mom ordered pousse cafes all around and her maternal grandmother took one look at the painstakingly layered drink, plunged a spoon innto it to stir it all up and then drank it that way. I think the bartender was in shock.
My reply to these types of places would simply be to just not go. Sorry, but they would pretty much just get the finger from me and the hope they close their doors and find some other profession.
Am I being cold? Probably. Do I care? Nope. I feel that if they plan to be an ass, then they shouldn't expect a lot of customers and tought shit for them.
@Akitist -- "Can't have a croissant after breakfast? They are right there. Being "aged to perfection" for tomorrow? Staff has dibs on them for lunch?"
Too funny!
How utterly absurd! Next time you find yourself in these kinds of situations, perhaps try giving the waiter a bit of attitude in return - you might get your way! (Though this tactic probably wouldn't work on the owner...)
Definitely walk out and spend your money elsewhere if you are not treated in a reasonable manner (assuming you are not making unreasonable demands, yourself).
The thing to do in France, in fact, is take your coffee at the bar and politely ask if you can munch on your own croissant that you picked up from the local boulangerie/patisserie. Or sit on the front terrace with your coffee and eat what you like. Of course I would only do this if they had the damn croissants on hand but were refusing to serve me one. Even the smallest towns in France generally have more than one establishment to choose to spend your money in.
p.s. Who wants 'fruits de mer' with their coffee, anyway?!
I can't believe you guys were bullied into purchasing and consuming something you didn't actually want and which probably cost *at least* 10 times what you would have spent. That you enjoyed that meal is hardly the point.
Also, Big Night is a fantastic movie! It's all about two Italian brothers trying to serve authentic cuisine at a time and in a place where the locals couldn't even begin to comprehend what these guys were offering.
Rent it then feast!
I had a similar experience at Pacific House in Colleyville, Texas earlier this year. The pasta dish I ordered was supposed to have chicken in it but I found barely any chicken. About as much chicken as you get in Campell's chicken noodle soup -- hardly ANY! I asked the waiter "Isn't this supposed to have chicken in it?" He said "There's chicken, there's chicken, there's chicken." I said "But there is not enough chicken. May I have more?" And they would not bring more. I was shocked. So I asked to speak to the manager, and just like the waiter said "There's chicken, there's chicken, there's chicken!" I have never been treated like this in a restaurant before or since. And nope, I was not rude at all during these exchanges. But I was at the end of this truly pitiful dining experience. When it was time to pay, I said "No tip for you and I won't be coming back!" It really rubbed me the wrong way to have to pay the bill for that truly pitiful meal.
My brother relates a story about how he tried to order a capuccino in Paris one afternoon, and the waiter refused to serve it to him, stating that one only has milky coffee for breakfast, and after that it's espresso or nothing.
I say when in Paris, do as the Parisians!
There is a flip side to this. My wife and I went to a well regarded seafood restaurant in Hawaii where they list some thing like 15 different main ingredients (different types of fish, meats, vegetables, etc) and then another 15 or so different ways to prepare them (grilled with a choice of different preparations, in different types of pastta, baked, fried, whatever). My wife could not choose what to order to save her life. Too much choice. She kept asking questions like, "but what's good?". Waiter, "Why, they're all good". They both got exasparated. We almost left. Finally we ordered and neither thing we ordered was right, really.
I have a differing opinion to the original post. If the owner volunteered to order for the party, I find that to be a very generous and gracious gesture,and for the Vegetarian to object was quite insulting to the owner of the restaurant. I feel the Vegetarian could have very easily handled the matter,by indicating that he/she was a vegetarian and asking the owner in his selections to include some items that they could have eaten ,rather than objecting and imposing his/her will on the entire party and the owner's gesture.
As in most stories such as this I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
If the owner went off on you simply because you were a vegetarian, then why is it so well regarded? Service is, for many, as important as the food, and I can't believe you were the first patron who queried about vegetarian dishes.
But if it has the reputation for being hard core and you believe hospitality is important, then why did you go in the first place?
My soup nazi moment came at a most unexpected and unlikely time and place. It was a considerable number of years ago at the staff cafeteria of the city hospital where I was doing a medical school rotation. Up all night, I went for the free breakfast. Allergic to oranges, milk, and caffeine, and offered only those beverages, I asked for a cup or glass so I could have water from the drinking fountain to wash down the breakfast elements I could eat. No way, it was forbidden to give me an empty cup. So I asked for tea and poured it out onto the counter and went to the fountain for water. Unlike soup nazi effects, I was't banned, and in the future I was given an empty cup on request.
LOL therealdoctorlew that is too funny.
chinese resturants aren't there for customer service... it's all about the food. Sometimes it's good food and sometimes it's bad.It's never about customer service.
glad you mentioned shopsin's cheflambo! by far the WORST dining experience i've had in nyc !! i went with some friends, was impressed and excited about the menu, but then was seated at the "bar" where i witnessed mr. shopsin cooking in all his putrid glory. he is a sweaty, greasy mess, who picked his nose and coughed on his hands (seriously !!) while wearing no gloves. i nearly puked everywhere and couldn't wait to escape. the health department should shut him down.
unless a place has exceptional food (shopsin's does NOT)--that you can get nowhere else and cannot make yourself--i say forget them. i have not repeated restaurants that have good food but poor service. sorry. i pay for the service and atmosphere as much as the food, otherwise i would dirty my dishes at home.
nothing ruins a meal faster than poor service. i wish our tipping custom could reflect bad service, but i suppose this is another topic..
I used to be a bigger pain in the ass than I am now when it came to ordering in a restaurant (no fat, oil, salt, or animal product of any kind for 11 years), but was accomodated at most of the restaurants I went to whether alone, with a date, or groups. If you know food and how to cook, being a pain is less of a problem, as you can work with what's on the menu.
The dim sum/whatever nazi could have accomodated. If they had initially requested a fixed menu, he could have been offended if the vegan's requests wasn't included in the reservation (what group doesn't need a reservation, especially at a popular place?). If it were 8 people, and 7/8 of the table were getting his specials, he could have had different courses for the 1 person who wasn't eating (split the table as 7 servings with the vegetarian being a separate table, in theory). What non-BBQ restaurant doesn't serve vegetables?
Silly problems I've experienced:
1. Moronic waiters who have tried to convince me that ghee doesn't have butterfat
2. Having the requests completely ignored (and plates therefore returned)
3. Dealing with well-intentioned cooks who don't comprehend know how to variate from what is on the menu using the ingredients from the menu, including forming a plate from the sides listed on the menu--at whatever cost
4. Being told at a Korean/Japanese place that it wasn't a real Korean restaurant, so they couldn't give us lettuce to eat with the bulgogi
And I reserve the right to tip accordingly. If the food was crap but the service good, I'll tip--it's for service. If the waiter was a pain, little or no tip. I don't feel guilty about that either, particularly after they've ruined one of my greatest pleasures of the day--eating (on the other hand, if the place is known for its surly waiters and I was paying for that entertainment and discomfort, well, I have to tip as it was my own fault for going there in the first place).
I would like to hear the owner's account of this experience.
Not necessarily implying the OP was wrong, but I've been around for too long to take just one person's side of the story when there is a major disagreement.
Just sayin'.
Obviously, none of you ever made it to Sam Woo's in San Francisco befor Edsel Ford Wong passed away. When I went there, he had the folks at the next table serve us our tea. He told me and another fellow to squeese the lemon juice onto our salad. When I wiped my hands on his apron, he said, "Hey! You don't know me that well." Food was authentic, reasonably priced and very good. Google it for more info, or check prior Chow listings.
Dick
I remember Sam Woo's well, Dick. Edsel was a character, alright, but that was it -- you knew it was an act and that it was all in fun.
Aecanium -
Did you go through his scrap books? Clippings from major mags, photos with celebs, and non-celebs. He especially liked his photos with attractive women.
Dick
I feel its much ado about nothing... however the guy who says that only three toppings belong on a pizza is right on!
Dick eckhoff, forgive me please a bit of semanticism, but the name of Edsel Ford Fong's "home field" was and is Sam Wo(not Wo's) and is Cantonese (I think) for "three in peace" signifying the original 3 partners. I live 5 blocks from there and remember liking it but I used to be easier to please.
Does anyone remember the original Rattner's in NYC on the lower-east side? I always said the reason we went there was for blintzes and abuse. The average age of the waiter was mayble 105 and one was nastier than the other. By this time (the late 70s) it had become an institution with the reputation of being "colorful". One expected the miserable waiters and mediocre service.
Generally, people who abuse customers should not be in the restaurant business, and people who abuse restaurant staff should not be allowed in restaurants. Civility is what separates us from the other members of the animal kingdom who have no restaurants.
I really loved this piece.
Angelenos with a sushi bent will no doubt be familiar with the "Sushi Nazi" Nozawa of the eponymous hole-in-the-wall restaurant in Studio City. NO California Rolls, NO spicy-tuna rolls, NO special requests of any kind if you were seated at the bar (those who scored tables were permitted to order from a checklist). And if you violated his rules, you were shown the door. I believe he was even the subject of a NY Times piece years ago, detailing his various quirks.
I'd heard stories about him for several years, but had never seen his fabled wrath first-hand until one sunny weekday when a young couple were seated at the bar in the midst of a fully-packed room. Chef Nozawa glanced at the woman, who ordered the only thing you could order when seated at the bar (omakase, sort-of - chef's choice in name, but really, you were served a series of dishes you most likely had there the last time - Nozawa was not a place for cutting-edge sushi innovation, just pristine fish). He then glanced at the man, who told Nozawa that "I'm not really hungry, so I'll just have a Coke." Wrong thing to say. Chef Nozawa proceeded to become more and more agitated, as he starting haranguing the poor guy - "What do you mean, you're not hungry? Why do you come to a restaurant if you're not hungry?? If you want a drink, there's plenty of other places you can go. Just go! Now!" In the end, the couple hightailed it out of the place, Nozawa gradually cooled down, and the rest of the place (most of whom I suspect were regulars) just shook our heads. Not at Chef Nozawa, but at the guy who had just departed. I guess everyone else was acclimated to the abuse.
Spatlese, I love that story! There are people out ther that think they are just TOO precious to go with the flow.
I respect a chef’s art enough to eat the food as it was prepared, and I wouldn’t ask for special customizations to a signature dish, and I respect a restaurant’s rules. But, it’s puzzling to me that a restaurant would use the humiliation and intimidation of patrons as a hook to get people in their slophouse. Most people I know like to feel welcomed into a restaurant, not treated like a bothersome rash.
I don’t expect to be abused when I eat out, by either the staff or the owner, and I will not be abusive to them either. But, if I was berated like an uncultured slob because I wanted four toppings on my pizza, I didn’t finish my dessert or I ordered the wrong wine for the meal, then that restaurant would not get repeat business or a good word from me.
A polite suggestion or gentle urging would likely have changed my mind, and would have been more appreciated and garnered more good will (not to mention a return visit). I also understand that restaurants get a wide range of patrons, sophisticates to cretins and they can’t cater to everyone’s specific needs. But why is cruelty the only recourse?
I really hate think that if I was abused, yelled at, and run out of a restaurant, the remaining patrons would be cheering the owner on and laughing at me as I left. Perhaps I’m overly sensitive to these things, but I’m generally a very happy person, and I neither have the time nor the energy to waste on anger and ridicule.
I used to write a music column, and so many people in town knew me from other connections, so I would often get phone calls the day the column appeared. I would write about good music recommendations all I wanted and the phone would remain silent. However, if I out and out SLAMMED a musician, the phone would ring off the hook and people would say "Great column, man, you really socked it to 'em."
This led me to believe that the general public is no better than spectators at a pro wrestling bout. They would LOVE to see someone get beat up, as long as it wasn't THEM getting beat up.
What's this got to do with this thread? Well, the utter disrespect for civility in public life. Cuccubear's point is spot on -- polite suggestions should be enough, and certainly a chef will live through in episode of disrespect -- it comes with the job. When chefs and waitstaff have to hector and abuse people, it rolls out a huge platform of incivility. Personally, I have never gone back to places where the customers are abused. I just don't like seeing people get beat up.
lol, I used to go to Crepe to Go - the signs used to crack me up, but it's true that sometimes the people who work there really are mean.
As for Chinese restaurants, I've grown up going to them a lot and learned that there is no such thing as 'service' in Chinese restaurants. Better get used to it if you want authentic taste/experience.
Sorry, but I would NEVER enter a restaurant that forbids me to choose my own meal, limits the number of items on a pizza(FYI, I don't like a lot of items myself but that's not the point) or tells me I can't have dessert if I don't finish my meal or tells me I can't return if I don't finish my dessert. Also, a restaurant that tells me I can't ask a question and places signs around will not get my business. I will make sure the establishments that receive my business are ones that actually enjoys their customers. To each their own and if someone enjoys these behaviors than so be it. This, of cours is just my opinion.
I'm always torn in this debate, and in the end, I think it comes down to evaluating each case. I don't like fussy, demanding customers, but that's no excuse for arrogant, uncompromising restauranteurs (after all, success in the hospitality business depends on satisfied customers).
As for Spirite Lounge, where I've eaten a few times, there's more to the story that what's written above. Yes, you have to finish your entrée if you want dessert, but you get to choose how much much you get (small/medium/large sizes, priced accordingly). Personally, I like that option, since I tend to have a smaller appetite. And from what I remember, you're not banned for not finishing dessert, you just have to pay a $1 or $2 "fine," which I believe goes to charity.
darlenet, perhaps you should have told them "there's a tip, there's a tip, there's a tip, - right alongside the chicken."
Coming from the perspective of someone in the food service industry, (meatcutting) I've had all kinds of crazy requets over the years. For example grinding filets mignons, cutting a whole lamb into one inch cubes, grinding fish in a meat grinder, and many, many others. If they are spending the money, you do your best to accomodate your customers needs. I tell people, don't argue, jusy do whatever they want they are buying it. I understand restauraunts are different, but you don't have to be mean to people and treat them with disdane because they want something different.
Proper Chinese banquets always include at least two vegetable dishes. Perhaps our vegetarian OP wasn't aware of this.
On a deeper level, is it just me or do vegetarians play a little game which gets them attention and empowers them? How many times have I overheard vegetarians in restaurants grilling the server with questions like "are you *sure* there's no meat in that dish?"
Frankly, I think the OP had it coming when interfering with the graciousness of the restaurateur.