On a recent weeknight, two San Francisco omnivores went on what they proudly referred to as a “healthy date” to Café Gratitude. A raw vegan
restaurant, Café Gratitude serves, with a few exceptions, nothing that has been heated to over 118 degrees Fahrenheit, to keep the food’s vitamins, minerals, and enzymes intact.
The man had “nacho cheese” made of cashews, and the woman had “pizza,” also with nut cheese, and raw vegetables, piled on top of what looked like a big Wasa cracker. For dessert they had a slice of banana cream pie, whose creaminess was the result of coconut milk and coconut butter, sweetened with agave nectar, with a crust made of coconut and dates. There was no doubt in their minds that they were giving their bodies the temple treatment. Imagine their surprise if they were to have learned that, in the eyes of some raw foodists, they were nearly eating the equivalent of McDonald’s.
Raw food has become glamorous. Restaurants like Café Gratitude are opening up around the country—from Present Moment Café in St. Augustine, Florida, to Maggie’s Mercantile in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania—and lines of raw packaged foods are hitting the shelves of Whole Foods. You can get raw takeout, like at Pure Food and Wine in New York City, or have it delivered to you from catering companies like Los Angeles’s RAWvolution.
But this commercial success has led to a schism in the raw foods community. A school of purists thinks “gourmet” restaurants like Gratitude are seducing mainstream diners with secretly unhealthy
San Francisco’s original Café Gratitude Photo Credit: Hero
food. These traditionalists eat very little refined oil, few processed foods, or things like nut pâtés (an avocado or the occasional handful of nuts is about as caloric as it gets). Dinner, they believe, should be salad, or maybe tomatoes puréed with mango. In their eyes, the gourmet trend is potentially destructive to the raw foods movement because its aim is sales, not maximum health. Some of them feel that diners like the couple at Gratitude are getting hoodwinked into thinking they’re being healthy, when in fact they’re eating a lot of excess fat and calories.
“It’s an unfortunate twist to expose people to what we’re saying is something different, and the world’s most nutritious foods, then giving them raw pizza and raw lasagne,” says Douglas Graham, a raw foods author and endurance athlete. “We miss the opportunity to make use of raw foods for what they are, rather than turn them into a poor excuse of mimicry of something that was never truly, if you will, nutritious in the first place.”
The gourmet raw foodists counter that their pies and pizzas are gateway dishes to eating more raw fruits and vegetables.
“For people who really need comfort foods, they would not be able to start out eating simply,” says Cherie Soria, founder of the Living Light Culinary Arts Institute in Fort Bragg, California, a gourmet raw foods cooking school.
And those in the gourmet camp point out that nut pâté and banana cream pie are still a big step up from trans-fatty fries and hormone-laden burgers. At the raw restaurant Quintessence in New York City, you can get the Big Moc: two “burger” patties with lettuce, tomato, and special sauce.
What both camps share is an almost religious worship of raw fruits and vegetables, and a belief that people should be eating them as much as possible, all day long. It’s the groups’ methods that differ: the pop-lite megachurch version of gourmet raw versus the messianic approach of purists like Graham. The megachurch may get more members, but they may not be well schooled in the particulars.
The article author precisely described the raw food movement as "church." IMHO raw foodists are sincere people who've turned food and the act of eating into a religion, complete with own dogma, scripture, clergy and an Inquisition. Raw food has become their communion element. This article describes religious schism perfectly.
I'll shake my head and go back to my roast chicken with boiled new potatoes and herbs.
I understand and respect the notion of eating for "optimum health" but one should be careful to dictate what "health" envelops. Raw purists (or purists of any type of strict diet) may have their definition of health but need to understand that health is understood in many ways. Personally, regular food-orgasms are required for me to reach optimum mental health and I will not deprive myself from it in exchange for someone else's idea of optimum health. Likewise, people eating raw foods should feel free to manipulate their food so it tastes good to them. Eating raw should not be confined by the single "health" objective.
Raw food is always a good option, but at the same time, it should be noted that our body does not have the ability to break down cellulose. So even if they chew the food very well, they are not getting the most nutrients from the food. Heat will generally break down the cell walls of plants, releasing the nutrients. Another option to eat the food "raw" is to freeze the food, which will break down the cell walls. The enzymes will not be denatured
That looks really icky...do they ever use spices/herbs?
also, this kind of reminds me of Buddhism...like, the four noble truths and the whole you must remain constantly vigilant thing
I agree with the first comment. It's been made into a religion where people think they can stop sleeping and heal cancer simply by denying themselves food that has any kind of good flavor. That's the basis of most religion really, denying yourself something for a cause.
Raw food diets sound just like any other diet fad out there. Atkins, South Beach, whatever the diet of the week is. Are they effective? Sure, to an extent. But as I see it, why bother? You severely compromise your food selection for the health benefits of a specific group of foods while completely neglecting the benefits of other groups of foods.
The occasional raw food experience would be just fine. Like going out for sushi or Italian, you can go out for some raw cuisine. But limiting yourself to a seemingly bland and, frankly, not very appealing diet like that? No thank you.
While I don't think the Raw movement is necissarily a "fad diet" I do think like anything it has it's good and bad sides, If a raw food diet is a way to convince people to eat more veggies, than that is a positive thing, but like always people will use the idea of raw food to eat seemingly lighter versions of things like pizza.
There's zero evidence that a raw food diet is somehow healthier. What is this nonsense? I love the idea of a cooking (ooops--I mean preparing food) challenge, so I'd love to try a raw recipe or two, but turning this into a diet could be very UNhealthy.
Although deeply involved in raw foods, I still think the best course of "health" is trusting your body. Certainly for some of us just getting in touch with "how we really feel" is a healing, but ultimately your body knows what is good for it, what gives it the most energy, clarity, support. I would certainly say eating more raw foods, especially juices energizes myself, but really, I simply invite everyone to experiment for themselves. Trust yourself, what supports you in feeling your best!
Hi - it's the writer here. As people are discussing whether raw foods diets are "healthy" or "fads", I just want to reemphasize something, because I think it's really important. Many raw foodists think cooked = unhealthy. Not true. But that does not mean that raw foods diets that are composed of lots of fruits and vegetables aren't healthy. They are extremely so. To equate raw foods diets to Atkins or South Beach is not accurate. Fruits and vegetables are very good for you in large quantities. Animal fats and proteins are very bad for you in large quantities.
They sound so joyless
It's the same thing in the 'orthodox' vegetarian world. Those of us who are 'merely' vegetarians are looked down upon by vegans. They think we are just as 'bad' as meat-eaters. I don't think there's anything like a non-radical vegan. I chose my diet for mostly health reasons, but the fact that I'm not eating animals feels good too. However, the vegans think it is harming the animal just as badly to drink it's milk or eat it's eggs. Since I buy organic and free-range foods, raw when possible, I don't think it IS harming the animals. I often go to the farm, and all the animals look healthy AND happy to me. (And, I have been known to 'lapse' on occasion with fish, and once in a while...bacon!! (As I said, it's mainly a health issue for me.)
Oh, and in the spirit of 'confession', I will also admit that I sometimes cannot resist Italian charcuterie. (I don't know what it is with me and pork products, but since the good stuff is usually quite expensive, it's not a huge problem, at least not often.
For those of us with intestinal disease (Crohn's, colitis) or syndromes (IBS), an abundance of raw foods IS unhealthy. I'm just sayin'.
And yes, I agree, these people do sound joyless. What about the health effects of never being asked over to dinner because you're so high-maintenance?
I have to ask: "Animal fats and proteins are very bad for you in large quantities." Animal fats, sure. But please show me a study that shows that protein is in any way bad for you.
Why is whipped cream not considered raw? Is it because most cream is pasteurized?
"But please show me a study that shows that protein is in any way bad for you."
http://www.thechinastudy.com/about.html
Research done by the Picower Institute in the early 1990s and the Swedish Academy in the early 2000s showed that when food is cooked, harmful chemicals are produced that cause aging and chronic disease.
Raw vegan cuisine (which just happens to be a healthful way to eat) is not at all joyless. It's full of joy and creativity. It's edible art!
I second what Terces wrote. See how you feel when you eat raw food; let your body be the judge.
http://www.RawFoodsNewsMagazine.com
Here's another link in answer to violet22's protein question:
http://mednews.wustl.edu/news/page/no...
BBQ BROIL and even baking creates carcinogens look it up and I am not 100 percent raw I am balanced but since eating green smoothies and other raw foods I have realized it is about the best way to avoid the toxic chemical substances that are added to all mainstream processed food. Check out Excitotoxins or read your cereal box MSG is in many things we eat under a different name. With all the GMO toxic food out there being a purist might be the only way if we do not stop it.
The raw foodies are just another new age cult. Yes, raw fruits and vegetables are good for you, but that's conventional wisdom, not revelation. The idea that any of these things can 'cure' cancer or terminal illness is a tragic delusion. And "trusting your body" isn't particularly helpful either. Some people trust that their body wants (and enjoys) a 20-piece Chicken McNugget combo from McDonalds, or crack. Concepts like "clarity" or "energy" or even "self-healing" are trippy-hippy, mental diarrhea. They're way too subjective and completely immeasurable means of assessing some standard of health. I'll leave the study to the expert researchers who publish peer-reviewed scientific nutritional literature based on the scientific method. If I want spiritually sound, raw, life-giving (and intensely powerful) hydroponic "herbs", THEN I'll consult the nudist vegan gnawing on a raw potato.
Any time a philosophy goes mainsream, many of its initial adherants are going to be disturbed at the changes it undergoes. An idea can't remain pure when it is marketed to the masses.
Look at the explosion of meat substitutes marketed to vegetarians! If you don't want to eat meat, why would you want Tofurkey? The very idea should be repugnant. And yet some meat substitute products are undeniably delicious and an excellent alternative to meat, even for those of us who also eat meat.
I don't think a diet made up exclusively of raw food is necessarily healthier for humans than a balanced diet made up of raw and cooked food with an eye toward moderation of the consumption of fatty meats, high-calorie foods in general, sugar, and processed grains.
I do think that anyone who wants to eat a raw food diet should go for it! And people who feel that the philosophy and health goals of the raw food movement are being compromised by the attempts to make it appeal to average folks should not be stifled from saying so or ridiculed for their beliefs.
It is 30 below. I need hot soup to energize. I do not have time to cook raw- food dehydrators and sprouting from scratch take too long. Too much sweetner in raw desserts.
(Soap box ON)
IMHO vegans, strict vegetarians and the raw foodies do themselves a disservice by their extreme diets. They've abdicated from an enormous part of the great central experience of being human--eating wholly.*
They've have cut themselves off from what some euphemistically call "the circle of life." It's as if these people chose to live on nothing but distilled water and baby food. (O no! I think that's the next fad diet!)
Eating meat is a normal, natural and appropriate act for us as humans. It acknowledges our place in the food chain, acknowledges we're dependent on animals (and plants) for sustenance and we have a responsibility to husband them wisely. In turn we give of ourselves when we die and our bodies feed the earth.
I think everyone who eats meat ought to participate at least once in the slaughter of an animal they eat, so they know exactly what sacrifice that pig or cow or tuna made for us. Also, it breaks that chain of ignorance our culure fosters in us, that meat automatically comes cut and shrink-wrapped on a foam tray.
====================================================
*People who eat nothing but processed or junk foods do the same thing.
(Soap box OFF)
Eating is one of life's pleasures, and food is a very personal thing. Memories of our childhood are entwined with memories of what we loved to eat. Thus it's threatening to many people to think that the dishes and meals that they love the most might not be the best for their health and well-being.
In addition, all major changes--in the arts and sciences and in social norms--go through stages. At first they are made fun of and criticized. It can take a long time for them to be accepted by the masses. It will take a while for raw foods recipes to be accepted by most people. But eventually they will. It took many decades for the public to wake up to the harmful aspects of tobacco, after all.
I invite you to consider The Little e-Book of Raw Holiday Recipes--second edition:
http://www.rawfoodsnewsmagazine.com/m...
violet22: Hear, hear. As a Crohn's sufferer, I shudder to think how long it would take a raw diet to land me in the hospital. Two meals, perhaps? Simple carbs are my friend.
Regardless, life is too short for such culinary sacrifices in the name of health, and food is one of the few simple joys in life. I'd far sooner live to be 50 and have thoroughly enjoyed the food I ate than live to be 100 and have missed out on all the wonderful meals I've enjoyed so far.
Furthermore, I do believe in listening to my body in the majority of circumstances, tempered with common sense. I think people who binge on bad food are simply used to eating bad food and thus feel compelled to eat more of it because they associate it as food and hence, due to its low nutritional content, require much more of it to meet their nutritional needs, so they crave what they know.
I generally eat healthy (in the context of my health condition), but given the fact that Crohn's causes malabsorption, my body often tells me what it needs, rather like a pregnant woman, I'd imagine. For example, a few times a week I become aware that I need a big dose of fat, and so I'll have a natural meal rich in it: e.g. organic apple pancakes with loads of butter and non-chemical laden bacon. Other times it's glazed carrots, or mangoes, or bananas.
I agree with most of the above--of course raw food is healthy and will help your insides be cleaner due to the fiber and water content prevalent in raw plant food (as opposed to the other types of living organisms which we can easily digest in yummy carpaccio, sushi, and ceviche).
Non-raw vegetarians can eat too much processed food with high sodium levels. Fat consumption, from dairy or soy cheese, may be high; to the raw foodist's credit, it actually is hard to eat that much raw fat by itself (anyone who has been to an olive oil tasting knows this). Once you mix fat into something else, it becomes easier to consume in greater quantities because it is more palatable.
Forcing oneself to eat by a process that is too difficult to maintain (cost and health-wise) and which makes one sick of the process of eating can allow someone to continue a self-inflicted eating disorder wherby food ceases to be enjoyed; other food (and non-believers) become the enemy. All in the name of the great almighty (body).
Some people need something to latch onto so they can be part of a special group, and raw foodists are simply one of the these (all follow the same dogma, look the same...see goth, jock, theatre person...).
A good article to read regarding health/food obsessions: http://www.beyondveg.com/bratman-s/hf...
During the summer I (accidentally) eat raw some days, vegan others. Then I have my cravings for fish or dairy. Or a burger. During the winter, potatoes and gravy--salads don't interest me at this time of the year, particularly when it's freezing out. So yes, I do listen to my body, and it tells me that fads and eating disorders ar things to be avoided.
What about beverages? Can the raw foodists drink hot coffee or tea or does it have to be at room temperature?
Yeah, there's a foot of snow here, give me a cup of hot cocoa and a bowl of chicken soup.
212F/100C is the temp for boiling water, so heated liquids are out. Sun tea is apparently ok (as long as the herbs are sun dried and not heated past x temp? 105F?)...the Bad Girl's Guide to the Open Road had a recipe for backseat coffee, which included having the grounds in a gallon-sized ziplock bag (in a nylon) soaking in the sun, so I guess that would be acceptable if unroasted (green) coffee beans were used? I do think it would taste awful.
Chicken soup does sound good. I should start on that now.
I love a big, leafy salad, but I would be depressed having to pass up some of the world's incredible cuisine: garlicky cassoulet, a long-simmered ragu with polenta, anise-scented pho... Isn't that sort of what being a Chowhound is all about?
cheezkitteh, I agree with you about loving incredible cuisine.
What many people would be excited to know is that there are talented chefs making wonderous dishes in raw vegan restaurants. If you'd like to see some of these recipes, check out a beautiful book called Raw by Roxanne Klein and Charlie Trotter. And there are many such books--and some fabulous raw food restaurants, depending on where you live.
Sooo... people who need comfort cannot eat simply? I have a few thoughts on people like these, but it is the holidays. They do not (I am sure) realize how they sound. Maybe they don't care. Obnoxious.
"Since I buy organic and free-range foods, raw when possible, I don't think it IS harming the animals. I often go to the farm, and all the animals look healthy AND happy to me. (And, I have been known to 'lapse' on occasion with fish, and once in a while...bacon!! (As I said, it's mainly a health issue for me.)"
I beg to differ, love.
The terms "Organic" and "free-range" have virtually no regulatory standard by the USDA. (I'm assuming you're from the US. If you're not, feel free to ignore me as I'm unaware of the regulations in other parts of the world.)
I could cage a cow all its life and slaughter it, while labeling the meat sold as "free-range" and nobody would tell me otherwise.
You people are amazing in that you would criticize a legitimate way of eating without knowing it's breadth and scope of its existence. Raw foodism is far more than just shoveling unseasoned, bland, raw fruits and veggies down your gullet and denying yourself pleasure from food.
I'm not a raw foodie, but my sister and her boyfriend are, and the food they prepare is always delicious. Raw foodism doesn't deny the use of fresh herbs, spices, salt, garlic, onions, chiles, and good virgin oils. She has made me some amazing green smoothie concoctions in her Vita-Mix that leave me pumped with energy for hours (and for those with digestive problems, green smoothies are the easiest to digest as the blender tears up all the fiber so it's easy on the system. It's actually an ideal nutrient delivery system for those with IBS and Chrons disease). She also makes a Gazpacho that I could eat everyday. She has an amazing collection of raw foodie recipes that include marinated veggie salads, raw veggie curries, and sprouted grain dishes. Eating at her house, I have never been unsatisfied.
No, raw foodism is not ideal for everyone, but it IS ideal for some, and these people thrive on it. My sister decided on the lifestyle because she's not a fan of cooking; she doesn't like using the stove or the oven--that's just the way she is. Raw foodism gives her a way to have fresh healthy food without having to resort to processed foods. She loves what she eats, and she doesn't at all feel deprived. She has endless amounts of energy, and despite all the nuts, sprouted grains, coconut oil, and avacados she eats; she has lost a lot of weight in the 2 years she's been following the lifestyle. (I remember the week she made a coconut oil/cashew nut/sprouted nut cheesecake where each slice must have had at least 1500 calories; she ate the whole thing in one week, and still lost 8 pounds that month!)
And even though she's a raw foodie, she's not a vegan and only mostly vegetarian. She loves raw, aged cheeses and will eat raw sushi.
Don't disparage a lifestyle just because you don't know all the particulars of it, don't understand it's appeal, and definitely don't disparage it when you don't personally know anyone who follows it.
I also meant to include that Raw Foodies can have coffee and green tea. Many raw foodies follow a cold brewing method for coffee and green tea is brewed at about 165-180 (depending on the green tea). My sister follows the cold brewing method for coffee, and it is quite good (it's pretty well known--just google "cold-brewed coffee).
s8ist wrote:
"And "trusting your body" isn't particularly helpful either. Some people trust that their body wants (and enjoys) a 20-piece Chicken McNugget combo from McDonalds, or crack. Concepts like "clarity" or "energy" or even "self-healing" are trippy-hippy, mental diarrhea. They're way too subjective and completely immeasurable means of assessing some standard of health."
It's not the body that wants that 20 piece box of Chicken McNuggets, or crack; It's the brain. There's a huge difference from what the body wants and needs for vitality and health, and what the brain wants for emotional comfort, or to satisfy a craving, or to pacify an addiction.
The brain may be in the driver's seat for the body, but many times the brain can loose direction.
Sure, I could be emotionally soothed and temporarily happy with a plate of fried chicken, but boy, would my body be paying for it afterwords! I'd be physically sick to my stomach for hours and lethargic. Clearly, a plate of fried chicken is not what my body wants or needs to be healthy and energetic--no matter how emotionally happy it leaves me.
I don't buy for one minute that we cannot consciously know when our bodies are healthy and how food affects our well-being. I know what foods and cooking preparations make me sick to my .stomach, decrease my energy levels, and leave me lethargic. These three outcomes are exactly why I avoid fast food, foods rich in animal fats, and most fried foods--they are clearly not health promoting for me. Anyone who claims he/she cannot "measure" how his/her body feels after eating a certain food or meal is not paying attention to his/her body--even a doctor will tell you this!
I believe eating a diet BASED on (Not solely consisting of) raw fruits and vegetables probably is a very healthy way to eat. I also believe that eating this way could help a lot in warding off life threatening maladies such as cancer. But by god, I've seen people that live very unhealthy make it to their 90's, and I've seen fanatics expire before 50. The feeling of euphoria these people feel is their bodies being deprived of nutrition. Ever perform a cleansing fast? By day 5 you feel high. Rokzane, I dont know how they drink coffee since the beans are roasted. If one can make coffee from raw beans, I shudder to think of how it tastes. Another thing is, these people cant drink alcohol either! What kind of life is this to lead? People (Americans) have a very hard time being balanced in anything, diet particularly. Thats why there are so many ridiculous unbalanced diets out their. If your a vegan, raw foodist, or Atkins diet follower, you dont have to use your own judgment when making decisions, as the doctrine you follow is the ultimate guideline. Enjoy your almond 'cheese', I'll enjoy my baked ziti. To balance the ziti, I will eat an avocado and some nuts for dinner. If you use your good judgment, extremism is not necessary to remain healthy.
Hi Rokzane - just wondering if you have any good recipes from your sister using sprouted grains?
I too find raw foods and green smoothies fantastic, although will probably never go 100% raw, but am certainly eating a very high percentage of raw food on most days.
However, I seem to need Essene bread (which is sprouted but not strictly "raw" ) every day in order to feel really good - most raw food recipes don't use grains or legumes, and I'd probably be 100% raw on some days if I had good sprouted grain recipes.
So far I've only enjoyed and been satisfied by a tabbouli made from sprouted rye, and a flatbread I've made from sprouted rye/buckwheat + ground flax. I tried substituting soaked oats (our organic oats in Oz won't sprout properly) for the Essene bread for a couple of days, but it wasn't a success - got hungry, felt spaced out + weak despite eating the same amount of grain as in the "baked" Essene bread! Looks like I can't absorb the nutrients in the soaked oats!
(By the way, goldendawn, I think a lot of "raw foodists" many of whom are NOT 100% raw anyway, DO drink wine - and it certainly sounds as if Rokzane's sister is FAR from being a "fanatic" or 100% raw)
I've heard the "religion" comment many times in connection with vegetarianism, veganism and raw diets. I think I know where it comes from, but omnivores are perhaps too comfortable using it as an epithet. It's an easy arrow to sling, and allows for unthinking dismissal of an entire spectrum of reasoning on why people choose to eliminate certain items or classes of items from their diets.
However there are times when criticism is merited. When a friend or family member goes off any kind of deep end, it can be cause for concern. I think the element of many voluntarily restrictive diets that makes others so uncomfortable is the idea of purity. There appear to be as many nutty food gurus out there as there are fundamentalist bible-thumping preachers, busy whipping up self-loathing within fearful or insecure people and reaping harvests of dollars from their efforts. These gurus convince folks that their bodies and the food they eat are impure.
There are snake oil salesmen out there selling everything from colon hydrotherapy to very expensive "kirlian" pendants (if you want a laugh go to http://oxygenresearch.com/oxybliss/me... ) to purify you and save you from the effects of everyday things they are claiming as harmful. These folks don't even need to make sense, they just name something to be afraid of and cock up a thinly plausible line of chatter and they can sell stuff to fearful people. This includes very expensive raw foods, such as less than a pound of cocoa butter for 35.00 or 1.5 lb. coconut "butter" (It's OIL, folks) for 30.00 at sunfood.com.
The bottom line is that one should eat judiciously. Many of us don't, and end up fat and sick at a time in our lives when we could be healthy and active. Others of us seem to have no problem enjoying rich foods in moderation and eating mainly healthy choices. For me, however, this is not easy. So when I tried eating raw for a few months, it was great. It was an automatic way to create dietary boundaries and take many less healthy foods out of my diet. Unfortunately, once I went back to school, it was too difficult to do all of the very time-consuming food prep, and I dropped it. It's too bad, because I really did experience easy weight loss, increased energy and a feeling of well-being, and I actually did need less sleep. But I think these benefits came from cutting the fats, sugars, processed foods, wheat, soy, and other potentially problematic items from my diet that I normally tend to eat more of than I should.
As a student of science (an actual student taking actual science courses at an actual accredited and well-thought-of college) I have come to believe that the enzyme argument is bunk. Our bodies make all the enzymes we will need. Of course we need to provide adequate building blocks in the form of the many nutrients we know of and the many micro and phyto-nutrients we are constantly discovering, but I think that to some extent whether we get these raw or cooked is irrelevant. Some nutrients are better preserved raw, some are more available when cooked, but it's possible to get adequate nutrition in a raw diet, with enough work.
And there's the rub. It can be difficult to get enough nutrients in a vegan or raw diet without spending much of your time preparing food. Some very organized and disciplined people can do it and still accomplish many other things, but others need to really work at it to get it right. It requires time and constant vigilance to make sure you are remaining healthy. Once you start spending more than a certain amount of time and attention on your diet, you risk looking a little crazy, unless you are a chef or a nutritionist. And if you believe crazy things about your diet and your body, well, you may actually be turning food into a kind of belief system, thus attracting the religion comments.
Now you omnivores may not like this, but an omnivorous diet can be very unhealthy as well, and you know it. Cholesterol is a problem. Too much of certain kinds of protein may actually lead to some problems later in life. There are studies suggesting dairy may not be as healthy as everyone thinks, but the research will take time to develop. (Most vegans don't eat meat and dairy because of the abuses of the industries producing those products, FYI. Health claims are made but IMHO still need more study.) As an affluent culture, we do, however, eat many rich foods to abandon - and it is clear to see that as various cultures have gained in affluence and eat more animal foods, they generally also gain in certain kinds of diseases. Moderation is still the key to health, no matter what you do or do not eat.
Nutrition is still a developing science, and will be for some time to come, not only because the technology is developing, but because what people eat on a macro scale constantly changes. So before you label all vegetarians, vegans, or raw dieters with some unkind epithet, you may wish to take another look at what could simply be an effort to eat in a healthier and more considered way.
We couldn't help but think of raw-foodists when reading about dry-cured sausages: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/17/din...
It likely has as many calories as the raw-food banana-coconut pie on this site.
(I know, this is not what was intended by the raw foodist movement, but I thought it was interesting, none the less)
Also, the dry cures use the naturally found yeasts and other live cultures in the air, so they could be considered live in one sense.
Caralien,
There are a bunch of raw foodists eating a lot of raw meat. They call it the "caveman" diet and there is some crazy lady named Fallon promoting this. I think they're being deliberately stupid but hey, it's their life they are risking and it's not for me to judge them.
Some folks also give raw meat to cats and dogs, which is at the very least highly questionable. Yes, these are predators and kill and eat animals raw, but it's a far stretch from that to the "prey" animal being slaughtered and going through the commercial packing, transportation and marketing process before getting to the animal's dinner bowl.
Some raw foodists also use raw dairy and I look slightly less askance at this, although it could also be dangerous.
There's a reason why Lister and Pasteur and their compatriots in food safety are still regarded as heroes. I mean we need to actually be careful these days not to pick up E. coli O157:H7 from vegetables, due to cross contamination from poor farming practices and other local sources, and the recalls of dairy and meat products due to various forms of bacterial and other contamination are astounding. You can look recalls up on the FDA website, and here's a listing of articles about recalls from the NY Times: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/referen...
Caralien,
There are a bunch of raw foodists eating a lot of raw meat. They call it the "caveman" diet and there is some crazy lady named Fallon promoting this. I think they're being deliberately stupid but hey, it's their life they are risking and it's not for me to judge them.
Some folks also give raw meat to cats and dogs, which is at the very least highly questionable. Yes, these are predators and kill and eat animals raw, but it's a far stretch from that to the "prey" animal being slaughtered and going through the commercial packing, transportation and marketing process before getting to the animal's dinner bowl.
Some raw foodists also use raw dairy and I look slightly less askance at this, although it could also be dangerous.
There's a reason why Lister and Pasteur and their compatriots in food safety are still regarded as heroes. I mean we need to actually be careful these days not to pick up E. coli O157:H7 from vegetables, due to cross contamination from poor farming practices and other local sources, and the recalls of dairy and meat products due to various forms of bacterial and other contamination are astounding. You can look recalls up on the FDA website, and here's a listing of articles about recalls from the NY Times: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/referen...
oops, sorry for double posting!
Bettina,
My post was meant to be humourous, as the traditional methods for dry curing meat are within the rules applied to raw foodism.
My husband and I don't base our food choices on fear or danger, and I do not agree that one needs to be careful to NOT pick up E coli, but for many it's better to be safe than sorry. My husband and I don't have suppressed immune systems and have eaten food we haven't sterilized at home, without problems. That said, when I heard about the tomato, pepper, and green onion E coli outbreak, I wasn't stupid--we sterilized the foods and made sure that what we ate was fully cooked.
I support the producers of traditional products, which include raw milk cheeses and traditional raw, dry-cured meats. I don't like my choices to be regulated by the government to not to eat something that doesn't make me sick (pasteurized processed cheese food product--approved as a food item by the FDA--does, however, upset my insides).
My cat doesn't like raw food, so I couldn't convert him if I wanted (he also doesn't like fish, unless it's canned tuna). A previous cat at my parents' house ate a squirrel which was his size--everything but the tail--and was fine.
If someone's lifestyle choices prevents them from becoming ill mentally or physically, wonderful--keep doing it. If they're fanatical or to the point of pushing away everyone they know or become delusional and think that they can magically cure diseases which are killing them, I can't support that or find it wonderful.
We live in a germy world and science, medicine, and government are doing what they can to make it safer, though sometimes at the cost of taste or other unknown (as yet) problems.
I am saddened to read that food at Cafe Gratitude is akin to some as McDonalds. I've eaten at Cafe Gratitude and own the cookbook. Except for the emphasis on spiritual recovery (practiced long before raw foodism) I did not get any impression when I was there that there is dogma associated with raw food diets if anything I really enjoyed the whismical nature of the food and the creative alternatives to pizza, tabouli and pie. The message that was pretty clear is that it is not fast food and that Cafe Gratitude goes to great lengths to provide healthy food for their customers, with an emphasis of quality over quantity. I think when any new food 'lifestyle' is brought in the spot light it gets all sort of controversy and the pendulum swings to both extremes but in the long run when all the broo-ha-ha settles down it becomes just another option in our spectrum of dietary choices.
Caralein,
No no, I was not critiquing your post or your lifestyle, but rather providing extra info and commenting on a truly dangerous fad. I'm not currently eating meat, but when I was, I would sometimes enjoy carpaccio from a really good source. To clarify - which I do only because you responded as if to a crazy person - I'm talking about nutjobs who think we need to eat like the cavemen did, despite many obvious evolutionary, social and technological advances since that time! :-)
Traditional raw but cured products that are commonly eaten which don't transmit disease are not within the scope of my comments. (Did you know that for years, we could not get Italian prosciutto in the US? I believe that ban has now been listed. I think the problem was trichinosis. But I believe that this problem is now dealt with by irradiation.)
As for feeding raw meat to animals, as I said, my objection is to the packing, transportation and marketing process, where many ills can occur from bacterial contamination to high levels of pesticide application and so on. (I should add that I also object to the large-scale slaughter process which is now handled as a high-volume mass-production process with many resultant problems both for the animals and for consumers. Eat local.) The source is all-important. I'm not unilaterally against the practice of feeding raw meat to animals, necessarily, but rather suggesting use of due care in selecting foods for pets as one would for oneself.
And as I also made quite clear, I'm not entirely against raw milk products either. But it's still true that they could be dangerous. Again, one simply needs to be careful and aware.
free sample addict aka Tracy L,
Cute doggies!
I think the food at Cafe Gratitude is just fine! The article didn't say it was the equivalent of McDonalds, but that it was such "in the eyes of some raw foodists." Oh - and claiming that all raw foodists somehow religiously worship raw fruits and vegetables, which is clearly a sweeping generalization, and a misguided one which I've spoken to in my first comment on this piece.
I think what happens is that when there's no news elsewhere, food writers or bloggers etc. decide they need to write about some vegetarian variant and how crazy some of its adherents are.
What I find most amusing about this is that if you could somehow accurately poll all omnivores (or adherents of other dietary practices) and quantify how many of THOSE people are crazy I think the numbers would be similar. Well, actually, some diets are crazier than others and probably attract a higher number of crazy people!
:-)
But the bottom line is that the author here was not claiming that the food at Cafe Gratitude is in any way like McDonalds, but rather conducting a somewhat long and detailed discussion of several different schisms among the "raw food movement" and their views on the commercial rise of raw food eateries. Old news, really.
Oops, in the sentence above where I say "Well, actually, some diets are crazier than others and probably attract a higher number of crazy people!" I meant to specify weight-loss diets.
Just to clarify, irradiation is in part what the raw foodists, raw milk cheese makers, and traditional sausage, dry cure prosciutto, jamon & Westphalian ham purveyors etc.--are against. It does diminish the flavour.
There are fanatics of every sort, but there's also over-regulation. I'd rather not eat a burger than be told I had to eat it well-done to the point that my boots would taste better, but that is what regulations are for, to protect the innocent and ignorant.
Is someone out there regulating how "done" your burgers need to be now?
I don't eat meat but not for reasons of health, it's for the animals. If I did still eat it, however, I don't think I'd stand for someone not cooking it to my specifications.
In Toronto you can only order well-done burgers (no soft-boiled eggs, etc.). There are other posts on this site regarding the same topic.
Wow. That's messed up. What the heck is wrong with soft-boiled eggs? To answer my own query once I thought about that for a few seconds - I guess the yolk doesn't get hot enough to kill any potential pathogens. Ah well, it's a new world out there.
I wonder, what about fried eggs? No sunny-side up?
Is this all because of regulations? Or have restaurateurs all decided this on their own to avoid litigation?
No sunny side up eggs either. Illegal in NYC for decades (since 1978 or 83?) but ignored for the most part nowadays.
Salmonella (and e coli)contamination is from the shell, not the yolk, If the eggs are rinsed first in hot tap water, the bacteria dies. Then you can safely eat the egg, completely raw, or whole, if you really want to.
Restaurants aren't for regulating foods or being told how they ought to protect their customers when they know how to prepare safe food. Neither are food importers or traditional producers.
The person who told doctors to wash their hands between visiting corpses and delivering babies was considered a foolish idiot at the time, but once doctors started washing their hands, fewer babies and mothers died during childbirth from infections. This is a matter of hygiene, which is practised in restaurants and regulated by the government (you can look up which restaurants failed their inspections, and what the failures were).
This is not even about the food. If the restaurant is kept clean and food preserved correctly, which most are (otherwise they'd be shut down), what they serve shouldn't be the issue and they should be judged by the consumers. Most restaurants are cleaner than the average home kitchen--they're bleached daily, top to bottom.
rokzane wrote:
It's not the body that wants that 20 piece box of Chicken McNuggets, or crack; It's the brain. There's a huge difference from what the body wants and needs for vitality and health, and what the brain wants for emotional comfort, or to satisfy a craving, or to pacify an addiction.
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The brain is part of the body. People going through drug withdrawals often experience symptoms of shaking, upset stomach, and a variety of other symptoms that are not specifically related to the brain. I still contend that 'listening to your body' is not a valid way to steer yourself toward proper nutrition.
rokzane wrote:
Sure, I could be emotionally soothed and temporarily happy with a plate of fried chicken, but boy, would my body be paying for it afterwords! I'd be physically sick to my stomach for hours and lethargic. Clearly, a plate of fried chicken is not what my body wants or needs to be healthy and energetic--no matter how emotionally happy it leaves me.
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Your body would, but believe it or not some people wouldn't have that issue. Their bodies have become accustomed to greasy, horribly processed foods. Your body wouldn't be used to it, and the psychological association you have with 'fried chicken' would likely not make you feel any better. Part of the diet's allure is based on people's psychosomatic responses.
rokzane wrote:
I don't buy for one minute that we cannot consciously know when our bodies are healthy and how food affects our well-being. I know what foods and cooking preparations make me sick to my .stomach, decrease my energy levels, and leave me lethargic. These three outcomes are exactly why I avoid fast food, foods rich in animal fats, and most fried foods--they are clearly not health promoting for me. Anyone who claims he/she cannot "measure" how his/her body feels after eating a certain food or meal is not paying attention to his/her body--even a doctor will tell you this!
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You think you 'know' these things for sure. To some degree you're right. You don't eat the foods that make you feel bad. But that also means that your body has adapted to a specific diet. It doesn't have some kind of inherent knowledge and you're not listening to it. It's a perfectly natural interaction of psychology and physiology.
rokzane wrote:
It's not the body that wants that 20 piece box of Chicken McNuggets, or crack; It's the brain. There's a huge difference from what the body wants and needs for vitality and health, and what the brain wants for emotional comfort, or to satisfy a craving, or to pacify an addiction.
========================================
The brain is part of the body. People going through drug withdrawals often experience symptoms of shaking, upset stomach, and a variety of other symptoms that are not specifically related to the brain. I still contend that 'listening to your body' is not a valid way to steer yourself toward proper nutrition.
rokzane wrote:
Sure, I could be emotionally soothed and temporarily happy with a plate of fried chicken, but boy, would my body be paying for it afterwords! I'd be physically sick to my stomach for hours and lethargic. Clearly, a plate of fried chicken is not what my body wants or needs to be healthy and energetic--no matter how emotionally happy it leaves me.
=================================================
Your body would, but believe it or not some people wouldn't have that issue. Their bodies have become accustomed to greasy, horribly processed foods. Your body wouldn't be used to it, and the psychological association you have with 'fried chicken' would likely not make you feel any better. Part of the diet's allure is based on people's psychosomatic responses.
rokzane wrote:
I don't buy for one minute that we cannot consciously know when our bodies are healthy and how food affects our well-being. I know what foods and cooking preparations make me sick to my .stomach, decrease my energy levels, and leave me lethargic. These three outcomes are exactly why I avoid fast food, foods rich in animal fats, and most fried foods--they are clearly not health promoting for me. Anyone who claims he/she cannot "measure" how his/her body feels after eating a certain food or meal is not paying attention to his/her body--even a doctor will tell you this!
==================================================
You think you 'know' these things for sure. To some degree you're right. You don't eat the foods that make you feel bad. But that also means that your body has adapted to a specific diet. It doesn't have some kind of inherent knowledge and you're not listening to it. It's a perfectly natural interaction of psychology and physiology.
Im sure that this is a much healthier option when compared to most eat=out restaurants, but raw! I don't think i can get with eating raw food. And it never even gets cooked above 118 degrees? So that means its still raw even when they cook it. Well, count me out! The fish at Club Sushi is the only raw stuff i eat
I think that the way one eats is a personal choice and I would have no problem making something appropriate for raw foodie friends(I do not currently have any). I myself would fail miserably if I tried to follow a raw regime, but I am also fairly certain that a strict raw eater is no healthier than I am.
It's amazing how mean and nasty the majority of you are. You don't have to eat this diet, no one's magically enveloped you in their hideous food cult by simply tricking you into reading these words, yet most all of you feel completely comfortable lambasting these folks for their personal choices. I often hear that vegans are freaks, fanatics, and crazies, on par with religious extremists. The funny thing is, vegans weren't even mentioned in this article, yet plenty of you chose to introduce them into the dialogue and trumpet your diet over theirs and the raw-ists in what sounds an awful lot like freakish, fanaticism on par with some sort of religious extremism.
I have been an omnivore (for 19 years), a vegetarian (for 19 years), and now a vegan for close to two years. I live very near Cafe Gratitude and have enjoyed their delicious food numerous times. The thing that most amazes me about slams directed at vegetarians, vegans, and raw-ists is that the slammer seems to think we folks were born eating this way, that we never ate meat, cheese, quarter-pounders, sushi, or roast-chicken. Well, next time one of you thinks it appropriate to comment on our diets, as if you know which diet is best, consider that we have eaten your diet and in transitioning to ours, we have read, struggled, sought out online sources, attended classes, and gathered with others to discuss our new choices, discoveries, problems, triumphs, and goals. Most of us know more about our diet—and yours—than you likely ever will. The person who said we don't think, we just follow, made me laugh out loud. You haven't a clue how much thinking I have done, and by comparison, how little you have. I guarantee I am the more thoughtful one here, and you my friend, are the follower. You are eating the same food you were taught to eat. You eat the food society continues to tell you is good and sanctioned. You don't, and won't, risk standing on your own and looking deeply at what's currently the norm because that would make you a crazy with "no friends and no pleasure" according to you all. Get real folks! Do you not realize how much you sound like taunting 3rd graders on the school playground mocking the new kid who looks, acts, dresses, or talks differently from you? Grow up, you supposed sophisticates. You embarrass yourselves with this thread, yet you're so content with your superiority over me and my diet, that you can't even recognize your own nastiness.
Since no one mentioned it above, it's worth stating that every vegan I know has transitioned to their current diet in response to new information they either sought out or were exposed to about the suffering involved in non-vegan diets. Vegans are vegans ONLY because they are thinking, feeling, empathetic individuals who have recognized the ability to sustain themselves without the need to torture and kill sentient animals (just like us) that feel pain and fear. I probably would not have gone vegan if it were not for my cats. After observing their complex interactions with each other, and with me and my husband, I was no longer able to separate "these animals" from "those animals." I couldn't continue recoiling at the thought of domestic animal abuses, puppy mills, or dog-fighting rings, and at the same time compartmentalize "farm animals" into a place that didn't allow for them to also have loving feelings for their offspring, complex friendships with each other, and most importantly, the same desire to live that both I and, my cats, share.
I said I was a vegetarian for many years; I loved cheese more than any person should. It was when I finally learned that cheese, milk, and eggs cause more suffering, extended torture, and, yes, death, than steaks, burgers, and chicken breast sandwiches, that I had to ask myself why exactly I'd chosen to be vegetarian for so long. If it was in any way for the concern of the sentient animals I didn't want (or need) to kill for my dinner, then it was time I recognized I had consumed more misery in all my years of cheese, milk, and egg eating than I had probably spared by forgoing meat. I won't go into details because they're easy to find if you want them, but I'll just ask you to consider, where do the boys go? Where do the baby boy chicks born to egg-laying hens go? Where do the baby boy calves born to dairy cows go? Where do the baby boy goats go? If that vegetarian that eats prosciutto still thinks no harm comes to the givers of the milk and cheese, let me tell you, if you do ever open your mind to allow a little bit of truth in, yeah, it'll be sad, but the beautiful, wonderful thing about it is you can do something about it! Unlike so much of the misery in this world, this is a place where you can make a difference. And I'll tell you, food never tasted as good as it did once I went vegan!
For the rest of you that aren't vegetarians, one more thing to know about a vegan diet is that there are, in fact, more and more folks becoming interested in this particular diet because it is the SINGLE BEST THING anyone can do to counteract global warming. Everyday more people become vegan because they have learned that the non-vegan diet is killing the planet faster than all the cars, all the planes, all the trains, and all the ships on the planet. I don't have kids, but if I did, my concern for their future and a healthy planet that can create ANY food and sustain ANY life would certainly make me adopt a vegan diet even if I despised animals and thought they all deserved the horrible fate humans have dealt them.
Oh, and one last thing, humans are not at the top of the food chain. Whoever said that up above needs to get into some of those basic science classes you all are so fond of referring to.
Vegans will continue to learn and evolve. I have been you. I have eaten your diet. I thank my lucky stars everyday that I no longer have to. I am filled with joy every time I put a bite of food to my mouth knowing that no harm was done to make it. I am also delighted by how expansive a vegan diet is. I have eaten a more varied, more exciting roster of foods since going vegan than I ever did before my transition. I can only hope that some of you will be moved to ask more questions and throw fewer insults.