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Table Manners
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Breast PracticesThe etiquette of nursing in restaurants |
Dear Helena,
It looks from the comments generated by one of your recent columns that the issue of breast-feeding at a restaurant is a hotly debated topic. As a child-free male, it will never be anything that I will have to worry about personally, but I’m in favor of women being able to breast-feed when and where it is necessary. Many clearly disagree.
I was curious if you could shed some light on this matter. What are the manners of breast-feeding in public and, in particular, in restaurants? —Thirsty for Insight
Dear Thirsty for Insight,
Breast-feeding does make some people uncomfortable, especially when the woman doesn’t huddle in a booth or cover herself with a shawl. When Maggie Gyllenhaal was snapped breast-feeding last year, she caused a media stir, in part because she was doing it so unabashedly.
Nudity in public is taboo, so it’s not surprising that an exposed breast might cause a slight frisson. Yet when a mother goes out to dinner, she doesn’t want to retreat to the restroom every time her baby’s hungry. Rachael Donaldson, mother of twins and marketing director for Bébé au Lait, a company that sells nursing covers, says: “You’re desperate for adult conversation and interaction. It could be the first time you’ve worn makeup all week.”
Pumping milk into a bottle in advance is not a great option either. If the mother has just fed the baby, she might not have enough milk to express before she leaves the house. In any case, there are drawbacks to feeding a baby from a bottle. (For instance, because it’s easier to get milk from a bottle, some babies become more reluctant to suck from the breast.)
In fact, many states have laws stipulating that women can breast-feed when and where they please. But out of modesty or in deference to other people’s squeamishness, some mothers drape themselves with a baby blanket, scarf, or specially made nursing cover such as the Hooter Hider.
But others say that breast-feeding is complicated enough without having to fiddle with a cover, and Emily Lindsey, chairperson of the Merced County Breastfeeding Coalition in California, points out that during the summer a blanket is often too hot for mother and baby alike: “It’s like a little sauna under there.”
Personally, I’m all for a woman’s right to breast-feed in public—be it with naked breast exposed, Gyllenhaal-style, or in a more subtle fashion. My only potential problem with it is that it creates a distraction for the mother’s dining partner. Donaldson admits, “Especially for first-time moms, conversation does come to a bit of a halt.” However, it’s not as if the mother is taking a personal cell phone call. And it’s a lot better than listening to the baby cry.
Table Manners appears every Wednesday. Have a Table Manners question? Email Helena.
Two words: Baby sitter.
mwliechty, if a young baby is being breastfed, you can't leave them with a babysitter -- a sitter won't be able to feed the baby. Duh.
I have no qualms about feeding my baby in restaurants, although I do use the bebe au lait cover. Most of the time no one even notices, and to date no one has complained. Truth be told, I couldn't care less if people have a problem with it -- it's a baby *eating* for chrissakes -- there's absolutely nothing gross or weird about that.
There is something seriously wrong with a person who thinks feeding a baby should be covered up or done in private.
I'm pregnant with my first child and intend to breast feed. Thank you for the links to the state laws with regards to the practice. I wish they sold the bebe au lait products in my area.
Check out www.motherwear.com. When we had a baby a little over a year and a half ago, I ordered a few nursing shirts from them for my wife, and she was very pleased with them. They have styles that look like the same kinds of things she would normally wear, but they have extra panels and flaps for nursing with minimal exposure.
There is another pitfall to breastfeeding in public, especially in restaurants. Most young babies will have a poo very soon after their feed and in breastfeeding babies this can be a messy affair, requiring immediate changing. I once congratulated myself on breastfeeding my 5 week old in public without having displayed any boob, but as he finished his feed, the little one let forth a resounding prolonged squirt from his bottom end with accompanying aroma and everyone in the room turned to look at us in horror. I rushed to changed his nappy and was left with no appetite.
I'm okay with breastfeeding in public except when the "baby" is 3 years old. I was recently seated at a table beside two women and a toddler who was old enough to walk, talk in nearly complete sentences, and eat pita dipped in hummus. I have to admit that I was horrified when, in between the mother's salad and entree, she let the 3 yr old hop up onto her lap and nurse. THAT'S when you need to just get the babysitter!
There's a small industry built around providing women with "nursing appropriate" apparel and covers. Several of my friends have enjoyed wearing the line David mentions, but my favorite is at http://www.thecowgoddess.com/2005/05/...
Seriously, I found that a normal T-shirt would drape to my babe's face, and his body covered up my belly, so we were generally fine in what I typically wear. A cardigan can be pulled around for a little extra coziness. Button-down-the front blouses and dresses did not work as well--for those it is better to get the special panels.
Rosemary, honey, if that child's old enough to talk, I'm sure s/he's old enough to come up with all kinds of mischief, putting a quick, sour end to her mom's lunch and adding an unpleasant taste to yours as well. Far better to have her comfy and calm in her mama's lap!
You can buy the bebe au lait covers (also called Hooter Hiders) at www.bebeaulait.com as well as other online stores too. I had two of them, 1 a pretty pattern, and 1 was just a white eyelet cover (I preferred the latter, since it drew less attention to me). I would nurse my daugher at restaurants or anywhere all the time, I never got any comments, stares, or anything - except other women coming over and asking where did I get the cover, lol. I don't have anything against nursing w/o anything, I'm just way to uncoordinated myself, I'd end up flashing the world the entire time. With the cover, I could not worry about that, and could actually even eat my meal (and if I'd spill sometimes b/c I was eating with one hand, at least it went on the cover and not the baby!).
Rosemaryhoney -- I, too, am horrified at the scene you described. Holy cow! (pun intended!)
This topic was a spinoff of the "kids gone wild" debate started here a few weeks ago. I see some of the same names above as I did there, with similar comments. I realize that nursing mothers are a force to be reckoned with, and have instigated legislation in some states that will legally allow them to do this any damn place they choose. That said, there is seldom a way to do this that will not attract attention in some way or another. A hungry nursing baby is going to let his mother (and everyone within hearing distance) know loud and clear when he/she is ready to eat Once the alarm is sounded, and the need satisfied, there is, indeed, the "poo issue" also noted above.
I realize that a nursing mother who does so in public is not too concerned about what other's see or think about the procedure, but what about those folks (persumably family, but sometimes friends) who are sitting at the table with you in that nice restaurant, trying to enjoy their meal? I've seen this scenario all too often -- the dad, trying to act like it isnt happening, the grandmother oohing and ahhing over the little darling, or the friend of either sex who stares with odd fascination......
Im not saying that a nursing mother should never eat a restaurant meal until the child is weaned (the mother of the 3-year-old noted above is an exception of course). Im just suggesting a little more discretion, choice of venues, and better names for the nursing outfits ("Hooter Hiders"? please.......)
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Most people 'within hearing distance' didn't know my babe was asking to eat--he generally began with a certain smile in my direction, followed up by a wave of his arm.
I agree with you that the phrase 'hooters' is crass and demeaning. Presumably the makers of this product are trying to encourage a humorous approach.
Their website gives the background of the name Hooter Hiders, and also why they have changed it to Bebe Au Lait (and why they also keep the original name): http://www.bebeaulait.com/about.php
Not sure why a name of a product would offend someone (someone who is not even a potential customer at that). But then again, I'm not sure why someone would be offended at a mother nursing her baby (especially if the baby is covered), just the thought that under the cover is a naked breast, and a baby nursing upon it?
Their website gives the background of the name Hooter Hiders, and also why they have changed it to Bebe Au Lait (and why they also keep the original name): http://www.bebeaulait.com/about.php
Not sure why a name of a product would offend someone (someone who is not even a potential customer at that). But then again, I'm not sure why someone would be offended at a mother nursing her baby (especially if the baby is covered), just the thought that under the cover is a naked breast, and a baby nursing upon it?
I'm actually more offended when I see a woman pull out a bottle of formula, especially when the baby is a real infant. Babies are meant to be breastfed. Formula doesn't even come close to meeting the same quality of nutrition.
I know this is a very hot topic. I also know that some mother's can't. However, by and large, most women make a choice that I think is ultimately detrimental to their child's health. I realize that lots of people are formula fed and turn out "fine". But, that is a poor justification.
If we started a philosophical shift that shunned anything other than breast-feeding, it would be interesting to see the effects on the health care system in 20 years.
Personally, I have breast-fed in some very nice restaurants, including Valentino and Spago and found 99% of the time, people thought it was great.
paige -- people thought it was "great"? Im wondering ... how do you know this? Did you take a poll? Or did you just assume that since no one was rude enough to "say something" it was ok?
Cheflambo - I actually have had people come up to me while nursing and say positive things to me, on many occasions. You may not understand, but many people realize what a great thing it is for the baby (even though it can be so difficult and tiresome for the mother), that they will say something. In fact, many times mothers who formula fed their babies will say something, that they wished nursed themselves or had done it longer. Or women who were grandmothers now would stop by and say what a wonderful thing it was that I was doing. Or even men. I think they were proud that their wives nursed, and wanted to tell anyone they could, lol.
Like I mentioned, I also have had people come up to me and compliment me on the cover itself. And many times people came over to peek at the baby in the carseat and realized she wasn't there. They hadn't even noticed she was under the cover!
Before I had a child, I definitely admit if I saw a nursing mother at a restaurant (or anywhere), it would feel a bit "odd". Not bad or good, just different, because I wasn't used to it. I'm so glad that my friends had babies before me, and I saw how normal and routine it was for them to nurse, a total non-issue. They fed their babies, so what. Yes, I "noticed" they were doing it, but I wasn't aghast like the family and friends you describe in your previous post. My husband had reservations at first when we went out with the baby and nursed, that it was odd, but after about a week, he never batted an eye again.
I understand that if you aren't used to something, it can be jarring at first.
Cheflambo, to echo suebebe, yes, people actually came up to me and told me that nursing my baby was wonderful, that more women should and that my husband should be proud of me. (I'm not so sure about that last part, I would like to think spousal pride rests upon things other than child-rearing).
On more than one occasion, I had verbal evidence that people (some anyway) thought the practice of breast-feeding in a restaurant was commendable. You hint at something that might be right - it is possible and probably likely that those who were troubled did not speak up.
But, like I mentioned earlier, I happen to think using commercial formula is appaling, yet I have never once gone up to a woman and said so. It would be terribly rude.
I think one part of this issue is that people do all sorts of things that are bothersome to others. Breastfeeding might be one of them. I think people who eat too loudly or who are grossly overweight or wear too much perfume are all rude. Would I ever say anything? No. Usually, I look up from my dinner and my conversation, notice whatever obnoxious thing they are doing and forget about it moments later.
I find it ridiculous that people find breasfeeding to be rude or obnoxious, but if they do, they should probably find some more entertaining dinner companions to distract them.
paigeharrison - we used to not have anything but breastfeeding and, you know what? Babies died because of it. As an adoptee, I saw thank goodness for formula.
I mostly breastfed my son when he was an infant, but there were occasions when I gave him formula for a variety of reasons. The idea that someone could be offended over that is utterly ridiculous. What reasonable people choose to feed their children is between them and their doctor. Everyone else should mind their own business.
shellyesq, I am not offended so much as I feel strongly that there is a better choice. We clearly are in a health care crisis in this country, mostly for lifestyle choices. Breast-feeding is one lifestyle choice. I feel this way about other choices, such as smoking or drinking too much or eating poor quality food. I freely admit to an extra (and un-needed) glass of wine on occasion. I'm not saying you should be damned for your choice, but I'm also making a stand here by saying that breast-feeding is the *better* choice.
I agree with you that everyone should mind their own business. I was making the point that however you feed your child, (bottle or breast) is not something that should be commented upon by other people in a restaurant setting.
I believe the original point of this discussion was WHERE the feeding is done. Let's take the "breast vs. bottle" debate to another board, please.
Cheflambo, I believe the main point of the auxiliary debate was "however you feed your child, (bottle or breast) is not something that should be commented upon by other people in a restaurant setting".
Same way as paigeharrison recoils when she sees formula coming out, but minds her own business - the same would go for a mother feeding her baby via the breast, at a restaurant, if another patron happened to be repulsed.
Now that my daughter is toddling around and causing havoc, I dream of the days when I could eat in peace "just" with a nursing baby, lol. We may still give it the old college try, in loud/kid-friendly places (not past her bedtime though!), but save the nicer restaurants for sitter nights!
Good point, Suebebe -- although I dont think anyonr is actually "repulsed"... but I get your drift. And indeed, save the nicer restaurants for sitter nights! I know there are lots of nice loud/kid friendly places in which to teach your daughter her "dining out" manners. Sorry Paige feels so strongly about the bottle thing, especially since it seems to be a better choice in public, if the baby will accept it (again, it is a personal decision that does not require unsolicited comments from strangers). I think the bottom line here, like most of these threads, is that we should all be more concious of those around us in restaurants (or public places in general) and conduct our personal business (baby-feeding, cell phone calls, etc) in an appropriate and considerate manner.
yep, people have also commented to me how glad they are to see us nursing, because it brings back sweet memories, because of the iconic image of mother and child, happy to be together, or for whatever reason.
Unlike many other objectionable restaurant behaviors (loud talking, sneezing when they pass your table, etc) this is one that's very easy to avoid being bothered by. Follow the baby's example and find something else to absorb your interest, like your food or your dinner companion.
Baby care, from delivery through feeding through childcare options, is way too much in corporate hands in this country. "Diaper" bags with formula handed out at the hospital and ads claiming a formula brand is almost as good as mothers milk do their part to discourage nursing.
How is the nursing vs. formula question pertinent to this board? If mama's not going to nurse, she's probably going to whip out the bottle of formula.
Cheflambo,
How is a baby's eating 'personal business', but your eating is not?
I agree, for the most part, Cheflambo :-) However, I have found that breastfeeding in public was WAYYYY better than dealing with a bottle, or even food now that she's older. Baby hungry? It took me 2 seconds to grab the cover out of my bag and I was done...happy baby...no matter where I was.
My friends who used bottles - they had to ask the waitstaff for a cup of hot water to warm it in. Sometimes they would do that ahead of time, but there were plenty of times it wasn't in time (unhappy baby!). Or the bottle wasn't warm enough yet...I never had that issue. Yes breastfeeding has its drawbacks but the convience of being able to do it wherever mom is, is unbeatable. And hopefully it will continue to get more commonplace and accepted so it is not such a weird thing to see in public and in restaurants, and we'll look back at these debates and wonder what everyone's fuss was about!.
I'm pretty queasy when it comes to bodily fluids. Baby vomit, breast milk, poop.... doesn't matter how cute their parents think it is, it grosses me out.
Yes, I think it's rude for a woman to just whip out her boob and feed her kid in a restaurant. But, when I can tell they are being discrete (the nursing blankets, etc.) it really doesn't bug me. Probably because I don't see the actual process. I don't know if breast milk has a smell, but the idea makes me gag. The vomit that often ensues after a baby eats is enough to ensure I wont be finishing my meal.
The definition of being rude is having no regard for your company or other people. So, even if you think they should get over it because the baby is just eating, or because it's the best way to meet his nutritional needs, doesn't mean you're not rude. So, just be discrete. That doesn't mean you have to go sit in a bathroom stall. But, realize that people have queasier stomachs, different religious views about nudity, or simply have no desire to see what you've got going on under your blouse.
And to those who said that the patrons at restaurant commended them, so everyone must love it...that's pretty inaccurate. I don't like it, but I wont walk up to you and say something rude or try to ruin your day by being a jerk.
hmmm, I think the people who commend moms for nursing either are or are close to moms who were given a hard time about nursing, so it's a bit of a 'we're on your side' kind of thing.
As for babies spitting up...that happens much more frequently with bottle-fed babies. Mothers' milk and breast shape are pretty ideal for babies' needs.
Again, baby sitter. And if a mother isn't smart enough to figure out how to put breast milk in a bottle and then put the bottles in the refrigerator for the baby sitter to use, then she shouldn't be allowed to have kids in the first place.
mwliechty, if a mother has so little regard for connection between herself and her child as you suggest, she shouldn't be allowed to have kids--or to associate with other humans. She won't miss it much anyway.
It is exceedingly easy to nurse a baby discreetly without destroying Azizeh's fine meal.
I wonder how the "queasy" crowd here and elsewhere feel about sharing the dining venue with stroke victims or otherwise challenged individuals who might drool or lunge toward their plates? Is that different?
I think a little common courtesy from both the mother and other diners would go a long way. If both considered the other person's feelings over their own, this would not be an issue. It's not that the mother is wrong, or other uncomfortable diners are wrong. Everyone is entitled to determine his or her level of comfort with the subject, but should also realize that the other's perspective is neither right nor wrong, it's just different.
Stay home and feed your child in the privacy of your own home. Nobody wants to witness the intimacy of you bonding with your child in order to feed it. And nobody wants to have dinner in adult settings like restaurants when there are babies there. You decided to have a child, not everyone who went to dinner at the restaurant. And nobody thinks it is cute to see your hooter in your kids mouth. Stay home and cook for yourself and your family until the child can order for itself and have a glass of wine.
Saacnmama, I think the mother-child connection can survive a two-hour hiatus known as dinner at a restaurant. Do you really believe the relationship between a mom and child suffers because mom missed one natural feeding because she went out for a couple of hours? I mean, really? What do you think happens to the baby when mom is at work? When a mom goes to work, does that mean she's severing the mother-child connection?
For me, it all depends on where a mother decides to breastfeed. I've seen this happening everywhere from the park to the subway to restaurants considered 3 stars and above. The first, no prob. The second, well, let's just say I've seen the expressions on some of the men's faces and were pretty disgusted by them. For my own safety, I would not breast feed on any public transportation. The last, absolutely no. I wouldn't do it, and I don't want to see others doing it.
And personally, I really wouldn't want other people coming up to me and complimenting me on my breast feeding in public. First of all, MYOB. Second of all, I have friends who do not breast feed and I don't judge (don't women have enough issues against one another?), and I don't need some total stranger to come up to me to "bestow" upon me some golden seal of approval. "My husband should be proud of me" for breast feeding??? WTF??? If ever a more demeaning comment could pass through someone's mouth...
mwliechty, You have every right to your opinion, but you'd do well to learn a bit about a subject before holding forth. Some babies can't go back and forth between a bottle and the breast, so their *doctors* tell them not to use bottles (lest the baby reject the breast entirely). Many babies can do both. If you're lucky, you have the latter and can hire a babysitter. Saacnmama wasn't saying that the mother-child bond could be undone in 2 hours. It's that if your baby won't take a bottle, you can't leave him/her.
I'm a nursing mom and I think there *should* be adults-only restaurants (and other public places). I wouldn't take my child to a fine dining spot, simply because he's too likely to start fussing and ruin everyone's time (including mine). But I will go to all kinds of more casual spots, from bistros on down. And I'll nurse discreetly, with a cover, if I have to.
These days, the pressure on women to exclusively breastfeed their kids in the first 6 months is huge. Society can't promote/demand breastfeeding on one hand and then rope nursing moms off from normal life. So you and padrona and others are going to have to learn to deal with your squeamishness because that tide has turned. But we nursing moms also have to use good judgment about where to bring our kids. It's not fair to people paying $200 for dinner to have to be distracted by my child.
I think there is something of a conflict of rights or privileges here. First, there is the right of people not to be made to feel uncomfortable. Second, there is the right of a baby to have the best diet possible. By all accounts, this is breast-feeding on demand for most babies. Third, there is the right for a woman to go where she likes in public.
In short, while I have some sympathy for the first right, I find that when it comes to eating in restaurants the second and third rights trump it. If you feel uncomfortable, look away: I doubt the mother or baby will mind the aversion of your gaze.
Yes, you've got it-- going to work breaks the connection! I've worked full-time since my babe was 3 weeks old (was scheduled to return a week earlier, but had to spend a few nights at the hospital with him because of jaundice). THAT"S WHY I want him to spend the time I'm not at work with me, not more babysitter.
Not many people go to restaurants solo. Most people in restaurants are there because they want to 'bond' with other people, from lovers to business associates working to seal deals by having a human relationship beyond the business end. When I see lovers using food to build their intimacy in ways I don't care to watch, I look the other way. Why should a younger person be excluded, assuming that we follow guidelines of decorum, quietly at our table?
Padrona, did you really mean to say that everyone under 21--not old enough to have a glass of wine--should be banned from restaurants?
well said, cliobaci. I agree completely. I'm not going to bring my little one to Per Se or other fine dining places, but there are plenty of restaurants where it's perfectly reasonable for me to nurse discreetly.
And I have to reiterate: it's a baby eating. It's not disgusting and **it's protected by law.** If you have prejudices against breastfeeding, it's time to overcome them. You have no more right (or moral standing) to prevent a woman from feeding her baby in public than someone with racial prejudices has to prevent anyone from eating at a restaurant.
I was one of the original posters who frowned on it in the other column, but I mainly object to rude yuppies who think motherhood gives them the right to ignore everyone else, except to the extent that they serve as handmaidens.
Personally, I do think, as long as you're breastfeeding—for how long, a few months, a year tops?—you should try to stay out of nice restaurants with the baby as much as possible. You did sign up for the gig, presumably, aware that there would be temporary sacrifices to be made. I don't think a nice restaurant where people are conducting business or celebrating privately or what have you is the place for a baby, *whether or not* it's feeding. The potential is always there for disruption: wailing, pooping, etc.
I agree completely with Oolah that there are family restaurants where it seems less out of place. If you simply must get have the nice meal and aren't cool with pumping, then the special clothing also ameliorates the problem, for sure. It at least shows you give a shit about other people. You don't have to fully agree with other people's concerns to respect them, and many of the responses of you mothers show you do try to meet your/your baby's needs and acknowledge others' concerns too. That's what polite society asks of any of its members, I think.
Breastfeeding is a perfectly natural practice of which no one should be ashamed or embarassed, especially the mother! That said, I'm a single male and will never have children. However being the oldest of 5 (breastfeeding wasn't fashionable in the 50s) I remember watching my mother breastfeed my younger siblings. She had the good sense not to make a big deal out of it being obscene or "dirty". Sadly, a good deal of our society seems to think it is. I agree it should be done discreetly. The less attention paid, the less commotion made.
I just would hate to feed my own child in the bathroom of a restaurant- most don't have the clean lounges that many department stores offer (and those aren't that clean).
I worked with a man that would take his lunch tray into the bathroom (he didn't eat it in there- don't worry) presumably to wash his hands. That was gross- I feel like breastfeeding in there is equally icky.
I don't like seeing it and wish women wouldn't do it at restaurants, but it is their right. And unlike other things that are done at restaurants that are irritating or disgusting (cell phones, body odor, drunkenness, etc.) breastfeeding is a necessity and easy to ignore (after all didn't your mom teach you that it's not nice to stare?).
If someone thinks that it is okay for a baby to eat in a bathroom then I'm sure that they wouldn't see a problem with changing a diaper on a dining room table. After all if the baby can eat where you poop, he/she should be able to poop where you eat.
I'm pretty sensitive to smells too, and I would be bothered by it within "smelling distance". But would I say anything? Hell no. Why? Because I would be crucified for it. That doesn't stop me having a problem with it.
Is it my choice? No. But I choose to be respectful of other people's decisions.
I just with people would be respectful of my decision to not have kids without jumping down my throat about it. Kids aren't for everyone.
That should've said "I just WISH" not "with". Doh.
Let me start by saying, I don't object in any way to women breastfeeding wherever they choose. More importantly, if I did object to it, what business is it of mine? I might really rather not see anyone breastfeeding, but, being an adult with fully functional neck and extraocular muscles, I can direct my gaze elsewhere.
That being said, the points often made in the debate over this (not necessarily on this site, just generally) are often offensive to logic.
For starters, calling a person's objection to public breastfeeding a form of prejudice or misogyny is absurd. While sexism, misogyny, etc. may sometimes coincide with prudish and interfering attitudes towards public breastfeeding, I seriously doubt that a significant percentage of those against the practice harbor such prejudices. Even those that do aren't likely to be thinking, "I hate women. They shouldn't be allowed to breastfeed in public," or, "I hate babies..." The attitude that leads people to object to public breastfeeding is a product of our society's prudish squeamishness towards nudity, body functions, and body fluids.
Which leads to another point. It's perfectly logical to defend public breastfeeding as a perfectly natural practice of which one should not be ashamed. However, when one supports this perfectly natural process as acceptable in public, but decries other perfectly natural, non-sexual, processes, which may or may not also involve nudity or body functions, as unacceptable in public, that's an inconsistent application of logic.
Finally, I can't let this one go:
suebebe - Do you really not understand why "Hooter Hiders" could be an offensive name for a product, or why anyone would be offended by any product name? By itself hooters is a pretty offensive term, with a derivation steeped in the objectification of women and the sexualization of the breast, usually only bandied about by misogynist slobs (think Al Bundy) and teenage boys. Combine it with the word hiders, and you've got a product name implying that breasts are a sexual object that one needs to conceal, likely out of a sense of shame. This obviously was not what the creators of the product had in mind. Likely they were trying to be cute, but only succeeded in being kitschy and vulgar. That's not to say I find it offensive (I don't) or think you should, but it's understandable that some would. And, if you give me two minutes, I could probably think of a couple dozen product names that would offend you and just about anyone past their pubescent years.
daniel-You're right of course, there are plenty of products that have offensive names. I do recognize the name as being tongue-in-cheek and since probably because it's a product by women for women, it doesn't raise my hackles. I don't think they "only succeeded in being kitschy and vulgar" - otherwise they would not have the tremendously popular product that they do - almost every mom I know has one of these products. Not that I love the name, and not that it appeals to me in any way but gosh, there are so many more things in life to be offended over, that I find it hard to get riled up over silly names (but of course it is a person's right to get rile up over those things). I'm even interested in hearing the couple dozen product names you mention, but that would really derail the debate :-)
Then again, I also find it hard to get riled up over a woman nursing in public, and it definitely seems like I am in the minority, as least in this chow-crowd. I'm so so glad that I didn't run across some of the people here, or those like them, when I was nursing my child. Parenting is hard enough without dealing with people who think you should stay home in your house for a year, or not step foot into a restaurant because apparently restaurants are only for their own kind of people. I definitely consider myself lucky now for never having run across someone with those views.
I really do think it's largely a matter of just not being used to it, what with our prudish society and all. For example, I pumped my milk at work for close to a year. Before I got pregnant, I never even knew what that was! And if someone would have mentioned it to me, I would have been bright red I'm sure, and very uncomfortable talking about it or hearing about it. Once I came back to work, it wasn't something I could hide or anything. My windows were blocked on my office, I got a lock for the door. I would sometimes have to leave meetings and then call in from my office, and yes, sometimes there would be a pumping noise during a call, although I tried to manage that, lol. And after the first few weeks, it was so normal. "I gotta go pump", and no one blinked an eye, it's part of life, get on with it and over your weirdness about it. If someone asked why my window was blocked off, I'd say that I was pumping. Yeah, I'm sure it made a few people uncomfortable hearing me say that, but then they knew, got familiar with it, and over time their attitudes shifted, because it became something normal. I do wonder if I had a manager like mwliechty or some of the others, I imagine it would be tough in a situation like that, but again, I haven't run across people like that in my work or life.
If you never have interaction with a breastfeeding or pumping mom, then you'd probably still be weirded out, that's totally normal. So those kinds of comments on the thread don't bother me, it's just that person's experience. But the comments that are so harsh towards moms are really discouraging. I'm new to this site though, so maybe this is normal and it's just not the place for me. Fair enough.
And I do have to add one thing, a few people here have said how a breastfeeding mom is not something they want to see, so they avert their eyes. Speaking as a breastfeeding mom, it's not something I want to see either, I avert my eyes too, lol. I get the impression that people think just b/c you are a nursing mom ,or approve of publicly nursing mom, that you would just watch someone do it. I mean, I'll talk to someone I'm with who's feeding their baby, but if I see a random nursing mom, I wouldn't stare at her any more than I would stare at any other random person. I'm a bit prudish still myself!
Also, am I the only one seeing the irony, with people saying they don't want breastfeeding in **restaurants** because they are sensitive to smell?
First off, I'm not aware of any smell that eminates from breastfeeding when in progress, but maybe I am used to it. Any slight smell the milk might have, a) it's going directly from breast to mouth anyway and b) wouldn't it be worse if a lactating mother left her baby at home and leaked all over her bra?? Then you could get a sour/sweet smell I suppose, but not if you were actually feeding the baby (in my experience anyway). Or should lactating mothers also now stay at home, even if baby is home with a sitter, because the smell of mother's milk offends some?
But anyway, "sensitive to smell"... in a restaurant?? I'd think there are way more distinct smells in say, the food, then in mother's milk droplets, tables away from you.
Maybe I missed something, but I thought that comment referred to an earlier post, about a babe who did a doo--stinky and noisy--immediately after nursing.
If I'm wrong, and the person meant that the smell of nursing is irritating, then I agree with you--very strange, makes me want to make some breastmilk bread (No, I've never made it, but there are plenty of recipes...)
People are all different. I think in general bottle-babes are more likely to have nasty smell earlier, because the formula isn't as well-matched to little digestive systems. If we were to start banning people from restaurants or other public spaces because of flatulence or other tendency to stink, we would be in trouble indeed!
I meant to say that although I don't doubt that her baby filled the diap, I don't think that's always to be expected from babes digesting milk anymore than it is to be expected from older people digesting other foods, although it can happen. There are, however, cultures where both burping and (I think) passing gas are seen as appropriate ways to show one's appreciation for a good meal!
And the 'sight' phobia/animosity doesn't make any more sense than the concern over smell: the nipple (which I assume would be the offending part) is, of course, tucked safely away in the baby's mouth. Assuming the kid's a good nurser and the mom's wearing appropriate clothing, no one's going to see a thing.
For those who haven't followed the bebe au lait/ hooter hiders link, a summary: the couple who makes them are a Brit and a Belgian (my guess is they're a bit mystified at US attitudes towards bodies, and names for various bits) who picked up the name from a male friend's (sarcastic?) comment.
I still think restaurants should keep a stock of the covers at the 'cow goddess' link in my earlier post!
I have a 5 month old whom I am nursing. I pump for her while I am at work, and I also choose to pump and give her a bottle when I will be taking her to a nicer restaurant. People who see me bottle feeding my daughter have remarked that giving my child "formula" is akin to child neglect. It goes both ways, I would NEVER comment on a woman's choice to nurse in public. Parenting is a hard job, as long as a mother (or father) doesn't have a bottle of Coke propped up in a infant's mouth, keep your comments to yourself!
I'm not squicked out by the smell (whatever that would be) of breastfeeding itself, but of the aftereffects mentioned in previous posts: the spitting up, the "noisy and stinky doo".
Just because I love the smell of a strong curry or lovely and fragrant fish dish (among other things) doesn't mean I like the smell of spit up and doo.
Why is my viewpoint so wrong? I'm not yelling to "OMGZ STOP UR FEEDINGZ" - I'm just giving you examples of why it may not be particularly palatable in a restaurant to someone who has never had the experience of doing it themselves. Am I looking to change what you do or what the restaurant does? No.
Other people have posted above about just being considerate. That's it. Go to the restaurant if you want. Just don't be surprised if someone has a problem with it.
For the record: I would never say anything. I haven't yet, and I won't in the future.
kmf - that is nuts, I can't imagine what must be going through a person's mind to have the gall to say something like that to a stranger (or friend!). And sadly, my 15 month old always wants to drink whatever I'm drinking, so I gave her sips of my diet coke, figuring she'd be disgusted and that would be that. Unfortunately, she wasn't deterred, so I occasionally let her drink a little from my straw, all the while thinking people must think I'm the worst mom ever :-)
blogkitten - surely you have been at a restaurant where there were fragances or odors that did not appeal to you? Someone else's dish maybe? But anyway, I do agree with you about the smell of spit up and poo, that certainly isn't something I would want to smell during my meal, and thankfully that has never been the case for me, with my then-nursing baby or current-eating baby, or other babies I have dined with. That would be nasty for sure, lol!!!
No one DARES to say anything negative about this to the "offending parties", as the nursing-in-public mother can simply whip out the LAWS that give her the right to do this pretty much anywhere she chooses. And for the record, the people who still feel compelled to criticize these mothers on the downside of bottles/upside of breasts are just as rude and a bit crazy. Do you really want to mess with a hormonally-charged woman over anything she does for her child?
When I had my daughter in 1981, my parents were furious at me for breast -feeding her at home, much less in public. "It's barbaric"they cried. My husband backed me up 100 % and eventually my mother confessed that she was worried the baby wasn't getting "enough". Dad eventually came around to the idea as we explained the process to both of them. After that, it was a lot easier going to dinner with them. I was always discreet (I was one of a very few mothers who were nursing, and people didn't hesitate to express their disgust if they guessed what I was doing-and we didn't go to the temples of haute cuisine, rather just nice restaurants. Only once did I go to the ladies room to feed Rachel, but it was so dirty and disgusting that I just went back to the table and did it there. After all, would you want to eat your dinner in a ladies room? I think not. Now, to be fair, I had a very quiet baby, so it was a little easier for me. We were at dinner with friends, baby had to eat, so I slipped her under the light blanket I always had with me. When she came up for air to be burped, the husband looked quite surprised, saying "did you just feed that baby? I never heard or saw a thing!"
Nowadays you have those great shirts and also better nursing bras than I did back in the day. You nursing moms are lucky to have these things...and I wish you all the happiness in the world with your new babies.
One more note; bottle or breast, right or wrong, it is a personal decision how and where to feed one's child.As I said above, for me discretion was the better part of valor. The time to be upset is when said child isn't in a car seat, but that's another subject for another time.
Not any more than I want a hormonally-charged man charging at me, that's for sure.
I'm very happy to be able to nurse my son, am also glad that the boy I gave up for adoption 20+ years ago was able to eat formula. I tsk-tsked at a mother giving a coke to her babe in a stroller, but would never dream of striding up and enforcing my opinion. Those who don't like to see nursing for whatever reason should show the same courtesy.
It is unfortunate that the simple right of a person to be in a public space, to commune with someone dear to him or her, and to eat nutritious food had to be put into law. I would like to think that the basic idea that everyone has those simple rights could be understood without resorting to legalities.
In the end, that's what it's all about--do the rights of the adult diners to enjoy everything they see trump those rights of the child?
What I really don't understand is the folks who say not to let kids make a fuss that interrupts others (I agree--no one should) but then don't want mothers doing the easiest, fastest, most natural thing in the world to deal with it!
One last comment on the positive comments--I don't look for them, most folks wait until after nursing's over to say anything (other than perhaps a smile or thumbs-up). But many people find the sight of a mother and her baby so happily interacting that they don't quite realize all that's entailed in the interaction, come closer to get a better look and smile--and then are a bit embarrassed. It doesn't bother me--I'm covered by the babe. But it is possible to be that discreet that even someone looking right at us doesn't notice.
Not any more than I want a hormonally-charged man charging at me, that's for sure.
I'm very happy to be able to nurse my son, am also glad that the boy I gave up for adoption 20+ years ago was able to eat formula. I tsk-tsked at a mother (in my mind, behind a window) giving a coke to her babe in a stroller, but would never dream of striding up and enforcing my opinion. Those who don't like to see nursing for whatever reason should show the same courtesy.
It is unfortunate that the simple right of a person to be in a public space, to commune with someone dear to him or her, and to eat nutritious food had to be put into law. I would like to think that the basic idea that everyone has those simple rights could be understood without resorting to legalities.
In the end, that's what it's all about--do the rights of the adult diners to enjoy everything they see trump those rights of the child?
What I really don't understand is the folks who say not to let kids make a fuss that interrupts others (I agree--no one should) but then don't want mothers doing the easiest, fastest, most natural thing in the world to deal with it!
One last comment on the positive comments--I don't look for them, most folks wait until after nursing's over to say anything (other than perhaps a smile or thumbs-up). But many people find the sight of a mother and her baby so happily interacting that they don't quite realize all that's entailed in the interaction, come closer to get a better look and smile--and then are a bit embarrassed. It doesn't bother me--I'm covered by the babe. But it is possible to be that discreet that even someone looking right at us doesn't notice.
I don't know cheflambo, something tells me you wouldn't shy away from telling someone exactly how you felt, or making it known in one way or another. You don't seem like the shrinking violet type!
Also, it seems like you feel all nursing moms are these militant types or something, just ready to break bad with anyone, to whip out these (horror-upon-horror) laws that give them the right to not be harassed hopefully - but I can asure you that is not typically the case. It's just a mom. Feeding her child. Period. Not trying to start a fight, whip out laws at you (most nursing moms don't even know about these laws, and even more wouldn't whip them out I'm sure, continuing a confrontation, in front of her baby she is trying to feed.) I'm sure there are exceptions, most probably nursing moms who have been harassed or criticized in the past, who may have their shackles up. But I feel like you have a false impression of most moms.
Also, if the only thing stopping you from telling a nursing mom something negative is a LAW, then I guess it's done something good. I would have hoped the common courtesy described by others in this thread would be more the driver (i.e. nursing mom should be considerate, those who are skeeved out by nursing moms can avert their eyes and pay attention to their own dining companions).
But am I correct in reading that you believe someone who criticizes a bottle-feeding mom is "a bit crazy" and someone who criticizes a nursing mom is not " a bit crazy" but merely prevented from saying anything because of the law? I say, they're all a bit crazy , no one more so than the other.
suebebe - I don't think you get my point.
Going to a restaurant to try new things is why I go to restaurants in the first place. If they cook things that make my stomach turn, then I won't be going back. You're making me out to be some insane smell-o-phobe whack-jop that can't stand any smell that is stronger than mashef potatoes. I can love the strong smells of food and not like the smell of spit up or poo. How is that so hard to comprehend?
And yes, I was in a restaurant once where there was an inconsiderate mother who left her child sit there with a particularly fragrant diaper while she enjoyed their entree. Yes, they did know about it because she said to the baby "you made such a stinky!".
Granted, I'm getting off the topic of breastfeeding in this column, but subebe - I won't change my mind about what I like or don't like just because you don't agree.
To get this back on topic: I think all people want is for everyone to be considerate of everyone else. That goes double for the people who berated the people using a bottle! I commend the women with the stories of "nobody noticed when I breastfed" - and that's really what my point is. Stop trumpeting that you're doing it and others will stop having a knee-jerk reaction against it.
Can't we all just get along?
Who is trumpeting that they're nursing?
The MG photo Helena links to shows what I meant about button-up tops being problematic, but she sure doesn't seem to be flaunting her bod the way many not holding babes do. Even that is much more open than what most of us are talking about!
I hear you blogkitten. I'm certainly not asking you to change your mind, I would be offended at the smell of poo as well, as I mentioned. If I was in your situation sitting next to a stinky diaper or whatever, I'd think it would be appropriate to say something, either to the family or to a restaurant manager to say something to them. Nobody should be expected dine next to a foul smelling odor. But again, I don't see what that has to do with breastfeeing in a restaurant, that is a different matter right?? I thought I read in one of the posts, that someone was opposed to BFing in a restaurant b/c of the smell of breastmilk, but maybe I am mistaken. I think it was Azizeh, who mentioned the smell of breastmilk, and then you're post said that you were sensitive to smell too. I must have misunderstood and thought you meant the smell of breastmilk, sorry about that!
I'm also not sure what you mean by "trumpeting" it, I'd say in 99% of the cases, it's like I said, just a mom feeding her baby, no harm no foul (and no smell).
Believe it or not, Suebebe, I generally keep my negative comments to myself on all occasions, unless specifically asked. I honestly do feel that everyone should be free to do whatever the bleep they want, unless it impacts others in a negative way. Even if I did feel one way or the other about bottle/breast, I would never express it to someone currently nursing in whatever way she felt was best for the baby. From my perspective the bottle's advantage is that you can hand the baby and the bottle over to DAD and let him bond with baby, too. Being a new mother is VERY hard work with no off-hours, A co-worker of mine a few years ago finally was able to get a sitter for her little 1-month-old darling and come out to dinner with us. It was the first restaurant meal she had enjoyed in over 6 weeks. Poor thing fell asleep in her chair.
I'm not criticizing MG for not 'covering'. I don't think about covering when we nurse--I'm all wrapped up in thinking about my boy. I think she's acting with the same impulse I do, the same reason nursing moms aren't jumping up to find lawsuit victims--she's involved with her baby! Seems to be sitting next to her hubby just as involved with another of their kids.
How one can let a babe sit in a poopy diaper, I don't know (unless, of course, they're under some sort of duress). It's bad for the kid's skin, so you have to deal with diaper rash. I put it in the same category as the neighbor holding the coke bottle for her babe--I'll never ask her to watch my kid, and the babe goes to the bottom of the potential playmates list.
cheflambo - that is too funny (about your co-worker fall asleep), I can relate!
saacnmama - The aversion to the sight is not a phobia or an animosity, and in most cases has nothing to with seeing a nipple or naked breast. Most people just aren't interested in witnessing other people's body functions. Think of it this way: you're on a picnic in a nice park, and some dude walks into a nearby patch of trees to urinate. His penis and the actual urination process are obscured from sight by the tree he's picked, but you can still see him. Don't you pick to look somewhere else while it's going on. Both urination and lactation are normal, healthy, natural, necessary, everyday practices, and neither is dirty or shameful. But no one who doesn't have to be involved wants to be (obvious fetishists excluded). Yet your right to breast feed in public is often protected by law, while that dude in the park can serve jail time in some states for what he's doing. While central Europe might have a more relaxed attitude towards the body than the US, their streets also smell strongly of urine the day after parades from all the drunks using the sidewalk as a urinal. And the aversion to the sight of body functions is not necessarily connected to any sort of body shame. I have some experience with a few aboriginal cultures where women do not cover their breasts (or else only cover them prior to becoming pregnant for the first time). In all three of these societies, breastfeeding is done in private with no one else around.
And yes, I did read all about the name Hooter Hiders on their website. It's still pretty stupid. I don't doubt that it's a great product, but they were pretty wise to change the name (just like Nas was wise to leave his newest album untitled instead of using his originally intended title, a word the culture he is a product of deems inoffensive). I also don't think that a stupid name is a reason not to buy a product; I order tea from websites with the absolute worst names I've ever seen for anything.
danieljdwyer - that's interesting about the aboriginal cultures. There are also many countries, not just progressive European ones, where breastfeeding is done openly and in public.
I'm not sure I understand the parallel between public urination and breastfeeding though.
It's depressing to read this. I breastfeed my 8-week-old in restaurants all the time -- I use the name-challenged hooter hider. I've never felt that people are upset by my actions. But many of you are saying that they/you are. Everything changes once you have a baby; going out to eat every once in a while is a privilege now. This might be the sleep deprivation talking, and I'm not saying that you should feel sorry for new mothers, just have a little compassion.
Can't the same be said about having a bit of compassion for those shelling out the bucks to go to a restaurant without having to witness the boobage?
Cheflambo, I'm back to having some adults only restaurants. What say you?
Carriegoch .... touche. I'm bringing my clevage, instead of boobage. No one has ever objected to that!
the process of urination may not be harmful, but the product is!
Breastmilk doesn't get left on the ground for anyone to smell--as suebebe pointed out earlier, it goes into the child's mouth!
I can't believe I need to explain this to grown-ups, but I guess I do, so here goes: the process of elimination removes waste products from one person's body. the process of nursing delivers nutrients from one person's body to another's.
Carriegoch, I'm not asking you to sit at my table, or to look in my direction. Don't you have any companion, not even a book, to interest you while you dine, or must you stare at other diners?
When I was growing up, women who breastfed in public without covering up, or being discreet, were considered uneducated, crude, and unmannered.
Seems like now the educated folks want these "privileges" too -- so much for equality.
Besides breast-feeding, one thing mothers (and fathers alike) want to do is talk about breast-feeding; without realizing that its pretty inappropriate/gross for someone who hasn't had kids.
Once at a party at my parents' place, two moms got into a loud breast-feeding discussion, ignoring the fact that there people of many ages around. Thank goodness they didn't do show-and-tell!
carriegoch - That sounds brilliant. I'm sure I'll get crucified for this - but how about Whites only as well? I know that's un-"PC" these days, and that they are permitted to go wherever they want to, but honestly, wouldn't our meals be more pleasant without having to see and hear them? It's just not something I want to look at, and why should I, if I am shelling out big bucks for a nice dinner.
And nancc - thank goodness for small miracles. I once was at a party at a colleague's house, and 2 women did take out their breasts. It wasn't related to breastfeeding (they were playing strip poker at the time), but still, I was absolutely horrified. I'm sure those two have had a litter of babies by now, just so they have an excuse to flaunt those obscene appendages. I think many women are dirty at heart.
Babies are not quiet while they feed, and some of us find the little weeweewee nummy noises less than appetizing.
Coming from a person whose user name is "Binkychow," that is just ... hilarious. There are a few other things it is, but I don't need to accelerate the flamewar by getting nastily personal, do I? :-)
Beastfeeding. Is not pissing. Conflating the two functions IS the height of misogyny, however much you declare it isn't. Clearly, you have a lot to learn about both topics.
I have been biting my tongue all day after looking at this discussion earier this morning. I have to say first of all that I have NEVER read a discussion on a chowhound board (in the several years I have frequented them) that ignited me so! Did someone really just suggest "white only" restaurants and another compare breast feeding to urinating?! It seems to me that many of you need a good psychiastrist to help you with your intense discomfort with the human body. Hear me loudly now; BREASTS ARE NOT SEXUAL ORGANS. Yes, they have been sexualized in our culture as well in many others however their MAIN function is lactation (I can hear many of you eeewwwing right now at THAT word). This discussion screams of people having serious issues with women in general and womens bodies specifically. Yes, it's mysogeny. There is nothing better for a baby than mothers milk straight from the breast (and nothing better for a mother I argue). Of course some women choose to and have to bottle feed for a myriad of reasons and it's not my place to judge. Of course the AAP suggests mother nurse their baby's for *at least* the first year. And to the person who proclaimed that nursing a baby in public offended her religion? Are you freaking kidding me? What does MY body have to do with your religious persuasion? Again, my personal take on those of you on the against side is (to quote Mr. Parker) that there's something seriously wrong with you. Some deep seeded mysonginist split. Months ago I heard Bill Maher (who I typically enjoy) spew similar anti-public nursing nonsense while at the same time say how much he enjoys cleavage! (didn't one nay sayer posted she was going go advertise her cleavage but how dare I nourish my hungry child....) How many of you would be just as offended by a 'hottie' in a little black low cut number & high heels? Oh, that's ok thought right? It's called a madonna/whore complex....get the
%!*# over it. What offense me while I dine out? Obnoxious drunk people, people who abuse servers, get into arguments at dinner, talk loudly on their phones or just loud enough for the whole restaurant to hear etc. Offended by a mother nursing a baby? You've got issues......if you need a referral for a shrink let me know.
also, this week was world breastfeeding week.....nice.
I have to say that I'm SO glad I live in Germany where people don't have all these crazy Puritan issues.
I was once breastfeeding my baby in a nice restaurant in Munich when a family sat down at the next table. The little girl came over to touch my baby and the father told her that she could watch, but not to touch him while he's eating. She stood next to me, watching, for a few minutes, while the father explained that that's how babies get fed and that's how she was fed. And no, he wasn't using the opportunity to sneak a peek.
We take our now 1 year old everywhere. I've never seen children raised in Germany misbehaving in restaurants. They're welcome everywhere and they sit at the table, eat with the family and are generally a joy to be around.
We recently went to a Michelin starred restaurant and I asked beforehand if it would be okay to bring our little one and the owner seemed shocked that I would ask. And we breastfed there and had nothing but smiles from the other patrons and our dinner group.
Like Dotrat said, it's sad that this conversation took place during World Breastfeeding Week. I made a post on my blog about <a href="http://www.mamasworldwide.com/2008/08... breastfeeding in Germany compared to the US</a> if you're interested in knowing more.
Well, that didn't work! The link is: http://www.mamasworldwide.com/2008/08...
"Well, I nursed my almost 3-year-old in Red Lobster"
What a sick, twisted person. No 3-year-old needs to be 'nursed'. It's all about the 'mother' and her 'want' to be needed by someone, even if it is her own child who she refuses to let grow up.
There is humane, respectful breastfeeding, and then there is classless, attention-whoring women who have no life and are so desperate for attention that they are willing to exploit their babies just to get their 15 seconds of fame.
Just think, if only these women would practice respect when they breastfeed, then they will pass that respect on to their children, who will in turn grow up to be decent, respectful, non-entitlementminded citizens who think of others.
Nursing a 3-yr-old is not 'disrespectful'. It's normal, statistically speaking. Most people around the world breastfeed much, much longer than people in the US. The UN recommends at least 2 years for the health of the child. Again, I ask people to recognize that food is not only nutrition. If it was, we could shut down chowhound and all go swallow our tablets any morning and find more productive ways to spend our time than sitting around waiting for someone to bring us the vitamins and fiber.
Could someone please describe to me how on earth a woman can breastfeed in a way that is aggressive or calls attention to herself? That's what many of you are describing, and I just can't picture nursing as anything other than a mother and child reunion, where the focus is on eachother.
Now the UN is weighing in on this? Interesting.
As far a the "sharing" issue goes (re: nancc) -- Significant Other and I attended a Christmas party a few years ago where nursing mothers (both current and recovering) were in attendance, and there was an extended discussion on the subject. SO was visibly uncomfortable but diplomatically quiet. However on the way home he asked "what the h**l is 'nipple cream'? "
And how can a woman call attention to herself by breastfeeding? I think doing it with a 3-year-old would definitely get MY attention, whether she wanted it or not. A litte baby, suckling quietly under a light blanket is one thing. Any child (a 3-year old is NOT a baby) who can climb into your lap and unbutton your blouse is old enough to drink from his own cup.
Yes, the UN has an entire branch devoted to Children's Health. You might recall international outrage and protest 20-odd yrs ago about Nestle and other companies very aggressively promoting formula in developing countries. (I was no where near ready to have kids then, but I remember). Nursing is important to kids' health, so the UN's involved.
As for nipple cream, I'm sure those mothers would've been happy to explain. A google search would also answer the question.
So what I do with my companion at your table is your business? No, of course not! Eavesdropping on other tables, scoping out what they're doing, that's aggressive. Clearing off the dessert cart to nurse on top of it while scootering through the restaurant would be calling attention to oneself. But sitting quietly at our table, enjoying our dinners, is our own business. Mind your own beeswax!
Well, the ladies WERE discussing "nipple cream" with extensive details. Oversharing, so to speak. "More information than I need" was his version of it.
SO is in the business of remediating toxic waste sites. Im sure if he brought this up and extensively discussed naturally-occurring radioactive materials and the disposal of hazardous waste (which often looks and smells a lot like baby poop) during dinner, someone who is not in the business would probably think that this was "more information than they need" too. "Inappropriate table talk" as most etiquette mavens might describe it.
and " So what I do with my companion at your table is your business? No, of course not! " Excuse me? If you are at MY table, in my face, it IS my business.
I'm the poster for this question, and I'm very open to women nursing in public wherever it is needed, hooter hider or bare breast. The idea, however, of seeing a three year old nurse, quite frankly, just disgusts me completely. I've asked my friends and family about this, too, to see if I was the odd one out, but they all agreed. It's your business if you want to nurse a three year old, but please do it at home. If a child is old enough to eat food off of the menu in a restaurant, when out at a food establishment, that's where he or she should be getting his or her meal. Certainly, the child can wait until getting home to nurse, unlike an infant.
Hmm, guess I was assuming too much--figured that you'd be able to handle your personal relationships yourself and that we were talking about what diners in *other* parties were doing.
I don't think any of us on chow will be able to help you figure out how to get along with your personal acquaintances better. That's your business and I'm not going to suggest how you ought to behave at your own table.
saacnmama - Urine is not harmful. Yes, it would be pretty gross if someone micturated in the middle of a restaurant floor. But I never suggested that any such behavior should be tolerated. I compared watching someone carry out one body function to watching someone carry out another body function. I never suggested the two body functions are the same thing, or should be tolerated under identical circumstances.
Mawrter - Comparing. Is not conflating. Clearly you have a lot to learn about the two concepts. You might also be well served to acquaint yourself more fully with the idea of misogyny. It involves hatred. Conflating two body functions (which I didn't do, at all) which to me are both perfectly normal, natural, really silly to get upset about, or squeamish towards, or bothered by in the slightest way doesn't involve hatred.
dotrat - Let me get this straight, by not having a problem with either body function mentioned, I have somehow led you to believe I'm uncomfortable with the human body? Your attitude suggests a squeamishness toward urination (otherwise, why would such a comparison elicit such a negative response). That pretty loudly screams discomfort with the human body. What would make you think I am comfortable with the human body? If I stared at breastfeeding women instead of looking somewhere else? I think most women would find that severely creepy.
Having made my comments about breast-feeding, I would like to re-direct my attention to the real issue at hand. Here's the deal, people. Many of us witness behaviors that are either odd, creepy or just bug us for reasons unknown. Sometimes we witness these behaviors when we are dining. Who the f@ck cares? Ignore it and get back to your dinner. If you are so otherwise involved in other people's behavior, you have bigger problems.
It really shouldn't make a difference if someone is nursing, kissing or doing some other sort of non-eating activity (although I guess the baby is eating) while you are in a reataurant. Eat your own damn dinner and let it go.
again, urine is WASTE (and is corrosive, if you disagree pee yourself & don't change clothes all day).
breastmilk is FOOD full of nutrition & antibodies
yes, they both come from a human body but with vastly different properties & purposes.
yes, mysogyny is the hatred of women....and all things related to women. as i read the distain with which people discuss breasfeeding, to me it only echos mysogyny. it does not have to be explicit & i believe implicit unconscious mysogyny has been displayed by many people posting here. and yes, even women can project it; known as internalized oppression.
If the choice is between a screaming baby and one with a breast in his/her mouth, boobies always win.
Urine therapy is an age-old practice used by many cultures. Google it and you'll see. So it's not far-fetched to compare urine to breast milk. They are both believe to have curative properties.
I never thought I have to stick up for urine, but then again, this thread has become so hysterical, why not?
It's funny to me that anyone who could be considered squeamish or even prude is a misogynistic woman hater. Funny, I'm a woman, and in the truest sense of the word, a feminist. I think women should do whatever the hell they want. Be a brain surgeon, be a stay at home mom, that's your right. Both deserve respect. Just because I don't want to see your nipple, its secretions, or a child spit up doesn't mean I hate women. It's a preference. And if you prefer to not stay at home with your baby that needs to be breast fed, that's your right. Just like it's my right to think it's tasteless. You can think I'm wrong, I can think you're wrong. Telling those of us that don't like it to grow up is just ridiculous. You may think your child is the most important person on the planet, but not everyone agrees. So, give it a rest and stop the name calling.
Azizeh, the question was not whether you want to see anyone's nipples or milk or spit up. It was about nursing in restaurants, which does not involve anyone else seeing nipples, milk, or spit up.
a feminist who doesn't support a womans right to breast feed publicly? how do you decide where to draw the line in your support of women? feminists don't say you can do this but not that, doesn it? my children ARE the most important people TO ME and I don't expect everyone else to feel that way, that's absurd. what i do expect is a live & let live attitude toward breastfeeding. this irrational fear/dislike (or whatever you want to call it) of breasts, nipples etc (which aren't even exposed while nursing) is IMO a form of internalized oppression.
it's so interesting to me that 'glorious food' used the term hysterical to describe this discussion.....hysterical is one of the most anit-feminist terms out there! sigh.....whether it was conscious or not hysterical comes from the word hysterectomy & was used to describe an overly emotional woman who was forced to have her reproductive organs removed!
no no this is NOT a mysogynist based discussion......
Oh for god's sake, dotrat, take a chill pill. First, the word is spelled "misogynist." If you're going to throw it around like an Olympic javelin, at least spell it correctly. Second, I think this thread is both hilarious AND hysterical, and it matters not if the people posting on it are women, men, and those in the midst of sex-change operations. Third, "Hysterical" does not come from the word "Hysterectomy." Its etymology is "Hysteric" (New Latin, English); "Hystericus" (from Greek "Hysterikos"; from "Hystera," womb).
As a friend commented (a non-breast-feeding mother--shoot her, if you all must) when she saw this thread, "No one takes down women better than women themselves" (call us "hysterical," but it seems that most of the posters here are female).
pardon the spelling....20+years of spell check have hindered my skills. didn't realize i was being tested.
if you know so much about the etymology of the word then you know yes, women were deemed hysterical (in modrn psychological terms) and forced to have hysterectomies not so long ago. the result of couple brief online searches:
"Hysteric disturbances", that most frequently occur in women were ascribed erroneously by ancient Greeks to the influence of the womb and were, for this reason, called hysteria, "disease of the womb".
"Hysteric/hysterical entered English around 1615. At that time, they had a theory of vapours--that a womb that wasn't pregnant was an empty bag that trapped bad air that would rise through the body to a woman's head and create emotional and psychological problems. It was a term used only about women."
I don't think I ever said I don't support womens choice to breast feed or not. The discussion here is about doing it publicly and specificall while dining. The problem I have is when I am judged for doing this or for breastfeeding at all.
In these posts breastfeeding moms have been labeled attention seekers, low class, rude, militant etc. It seems to me that we are the ones being judged here. Even the fact that you assume somehow that I would want to shoot your non breast feeding
friend is an example to me of the assumption of the all of the before mentioned adjectives.
And your friends are absolutely right, it is women pulling wome down here. Can you tell me why you would think I'd want to shoot her???
Amazing (and a little bit sad) that this argument has declined into a finger-pointing contest based on etymology and semantics.
For the record, I've seen men become "hysterical" too. Here in the 21st century, it is no longer a gender-specific word.
Dotrat, there's a huge difference in disliking something and working to ban it. I am not in the latter group.
But, apparently anyone that is uncomfortable with it should just get over it. I've also noticed that the pro public feeders are the ones calling names and making accusations about the anti public feeders character. We don't think it's tasteful? We're probably communists, too.
All of my statements are "I" statements. I never told anyone what to do with themselves. I, personally, do not like it. This is an opinion board, no social or political issues are going to be solved here. The nursing mothers are more focused on what everyone else needs to do. "You need to get over it" or "You need to grow up!"
I'm with Azizeh. I breastfed my baby, but not in public, no more than I wou ld change him in public. Yes, it's natural and beautiful, but so's sex, and I SURE to hell don't want to see you doing that.
If we were an unclad tribe living in an openly communal village, it wouldn't be such a big deal. But please, I just don't care to see your breasts, functional or not. In fact, I suggest that YOU need to grow up and stop showing us your tits. If I can't see them it's not a problem, but I really don't want to see th em displayed in public.
Um Dineout...first of all, I don't think that an adults only restaurant is akin to "whites only" and secondly, I was joking. I was referencing another Helena column where Cheflambo and I were discussing children in restaurants. So, please learn to use an analogy that actually has something to do with the original statement.
Wow EWSflash - tits? That makes "hooters" sounds classy. And yet I'm the one being called crass for feeding my child outside my home or a bathroom. Strange world.....
OMG I change my baby in public too! Clearly I'm insulting people left and right by just leaving the house with my hungry, dirty child. Poor, poor sensitive people. I'm going back to my hole now.
The women who think they can just "whip it out" and nurse are just asking for trouble. You don't change people's minds by forcing them to accept your choices, especially concerning anything to do with tits. The best answer for public breastfeeding is DISCRETION. It's not difficult to do, and you'll keep the crazies from crawling out of the woodwork to give you dirty looks and to complain about you. They do have the right to not see your nude body parts, even though you tend to see more tit on a Victoria's Secret model. People are awful. They suck. But shoving your choices into their faces aren't gonna change that.
Yes, breasts are sexual. Yes, they are used for feeding children. What's wrong with a dual-purpose body part? Why is it that people forget that curvy flesh (whether breasts or buttocks) are ways of eliciting a sexual response from the opposite sex (or the same sex, for that matter). Gorillas and other primates aren't knuckle-dragging themselves around with a rack. Look at any other animal, and you'll see that their breast enlargement is strictly offspring-bearing and offspring-feeding related. Humans are quite different in that respect. And it's very common for the male partner of a nursing mother to become aroused the first few times he witnesses his child being fed.
But to compare breastfeeding to taking a dump, masturbating, urinating, or having sex is just immaturity at its finest.
As far as for pumping and putting the milk into a bottle so "dad can bond," are you forgetting that there are many other ways to bond with your child? And when you put breastmilk into a bottle to take your baby somewhere, what are you supposed to do about leaking and engorgement that will follow from not feeding your child (or pumping) for a few hours? Not to mention a possible infection that could result?
My adoptive mother was grossed out by breastfeeding too. Of course she beat the hell out of me when I was growing up and should probably be in jail, but she said some of the same things some of you have. It's possible that she has Borderline Personality Disorder too, but don't try to accuse me of saying the dissenters are insane.
I see people who are offensive to me every day. The religious, the poorly dressed, the ones who can't speak in complete sentences, and so on. Do I think they don't deserve to go out in public or to dine in fine restaurants? Of course not. The same polite ignoring should be the action taken by you breastfeeding-haters and child-haters. You can do it all you want, but please shut your godd*mn mouth.
Edit: But shoving your choices into their faces ISN'T gonna change that.
Holy crap! Why don't we just agree to disagree?
suebebe - You're absolutely right that tits is now a rather vulgar term, but you might be interested to know that is not how it started out. The term dates back at least seven hundred years, and potentially well over a thousand. In Middle English, before the vowel sounds in English shifted, it was pronounced "teet", from which comes the modern "teat". It was a fairly polite term, usually used in reference specifically to the nipples, and particularly to nipples being used for nursing. Terms such as this largely disappeared over the course of the Victorian Era when talking about such things was considered impolite. Tit, or teat as is was now spelled, came to refer only to the nipples of livestock, as livestock nursing their young was not so vulgar as humans doing the same. Due to the extreme body shame of the era, breast eventually arose as the polite term because it referred vaguely to the chest, with no specific gender implications, and without specifically involving that oh so vulgar organ that provides nutrition and sexual stimulation. Hooters is a term that has only ever been used by actually vulgar men (and women, I suppose), and initially had the specific connotation of a pair of breasts worthy of catcalling at a passing young woman. So, anyway, despite the modern connotations, we say breasts instead of tits because of an era of sexual repression and extreme misogyny, the word breasts having the function of hiding the true nature of the body part, while tits explicitly implied the function of the organ as being lactation.
Viva la' boobs!
But seriously, I feel that infants (or any non-toilet trained child for that matter) should not be brought to public places that don't have changing tables provided in the restrooms. It's a big hint that the babes aren't welcomed.
I do not find breast feed offensive if it is carried out tastefully without calling any undue attention to yourself.
As long as I don't have to hear your baby sucking and slurping away, which is really gross to me, I have no problems with breastfeeding in public. But if I have to hear it, I may have to complain.
Then again, if I am dining at a joint in the mall that has a kiddie menu and changing tables in the bathroom, I would think twice about complaining.
danieldjwyer- Thank you! Actually I read that about 30 years ago in Playboy! It was one of those questions in the Playboy Advisor.
:-)
I may be adding fuel to the fire, but feel compelled to pass this on, as it is newsworthy:
http://www.gadling.com/2008/08/10/put...
No one wants to see breasts when they eat dinner, unless they are at the strip club. Get a baby sitter.
danieljdwyer- thank you for being so eloquently, verbally, and historically accurate.
LaurCar, that's a silly standard. I get your larger point -- and agree that there are places where infants just aren't welcome -- but by your measure, I couldn't take my kid to the pediatrician's office (no changing table), or to the diner down the street.
It's about using common sense and having discretion, no? There are no simple "rules."
it's amazing that the whole subject of breast milk as actual food has only so barely been touched upon in the many comments. this is chowhound, people! breastmilk is hands down the best food you can give your child. restaurants are for eating in. of course, each child and each family is different, but if you have a kid that you can expect to be peaceful and respectful in a restaurant, why the hell should that kid not eat the best food in the joint?
Andy. At most eating establishments, outside food is not allowed!
it would be hard to call breast milk outside food - it's in the restaurant whether it gets eaten there or not. similarly, the restaurants food will soon actually be breast milk.
I don't have a problem with mothers breastfeeding in public in general, and in restaurants in particular, but surely a little discretion and consideration for other diners should be a part of the equation. My wife breastfed our two daughters in public, but being a fairly modest woman, she always draped herself. It was clear to anyone who wanted to stare what she was doing, but she never exposed herself.
And yes, breastfeeding is natural, but so are bowel movements. Would you expect a mother to change her baby at the table? I remember on a long flight from Toronto to Asia, my wife changed our daughter at our seat. I was horrified, and told her she couldn't do that. She looked daggers at me (she's not the best traveler at the best of times) and told me "Then you do it!". And so, for the rest of the 13-hour flight and the entire flight home, I took the baby to the restroom to change her. As I said, it's all about discretion and consideration.
Jesus, another person comparing breastfeeding to taking a shit. Get over it already. It's not even close, and the comparison is childish.
Clearly, you were bottle fed, LaurCar . Such a shame. One of the advantages of breast feeding is better brain development.
That said, this should not even BE an issue. I breastfed everywhere I went and NEVER had a problem. The "sucking and slurping sounds", if the baby is covered and latched on correctly, are non-existent. It's the bottles and those vile pacifiers that are noisy.
That said, an exhibitionist actress who pays people to get her press really doesn't compare to other women. For one thing, while breastfeeding one needs a very good bra, so little of the actual boob is exposed anyway for most. In addition, the idea of a specific overpriced stupidly trendy garment for covering is ridiculous. If you have an infant, you will be carrying what is known as a diaper bag (although these have gotten quite trendy too) that should also contain changes of clothes for the baby (don't believe that no diaper doesn't sometimes leak) and a wonderful thing (or two) called RECEIVING blankets which also work wonders while BFing as cover ups.
1. Chowhound is much more interesting without the censorship - as shown here and on other sites about bfeeding like urbanbaby.
2. It is SO CLEAR that the people hating on bfeeding mothers have not had children. How can they criticize when they haven't been through it?
I see absolutely nothing wrong with breastfeeding in public so long as the mother is hot.
LOL. Cheers!
Nurse on, mamas! Breastfeeding makes for healthier babies (and adults) and reduces society's healthcare costs dramatically. If more women did it in public, maybe we'd have higher breastfeeding rates.
"It is SO CLEAR that the people hating on bfeeding mothers have not had children. How can they criticize when they haven't been through it? "
Ok, i fit in here as someone who's not been through it (I do not criticize breastfeeding however, and i am a proud auntie of breastfed little ones)....but on a side note, a LOT of people who have moved into the "three of us" category, seem to immediatly forget what it is like to be sans kids. Anyone else remember that episode of Sex and the City (a women's right to shoes?). I can't tell you how many times i've sat there with my eyes glazed over and nothing to contribute while a few friends went on and on about someting to do with their babies bodily functions and their kids. Something to keep in mind at the next dinner party !
Back on topic, i think most people are on about discretion and so forth I guess (but i'd have to say sorry to whoever it was that breastfeeds a three year old, but that I would have a hard time averting my eyes from, i have a touch of ADD i guess, trouble filtering out my environment). Within this topic, however, I have to say it ANNOYS me to no end when someone launches into the old "breasts are not sexual organs, and have been sexualized by our culture". Breasts (mostly nipples, female and male to some degree, although i can't attest to the male version), are sexual organs by biology alone. They're hard wired into the nether regions, and react when touched, and appear to enjoy the attention, to the point of....well you get where i'm going. All those nerve endings and such are in there for other reasons than breast feeding. Otherwise, mine would have no purpose at all. There, i said it.
There are a lot of different variants to this situation. Seeing a stranger doing this, is a completely different story. I would not de-bra in front of my father, so expecting him to "get over it" if I ever choose to breastfeed, would be asking a bit. Nor would I want my friend's husbands/boyfriends, or a business associate to catch a glimpse of my nipples, we're just not THAT close ! So I would assume there would be SOME etiquette in these situations.
I was breast feeding my daughter 4 years ago at Outback steakhouse and had a man ask me to take my child into the bathroom to feed her. I was totally covered the entire time with a shaw. I told him that if he would take his food in the bathroom and join me I would be more than happy to oblige him. I always kept myself covered so there were no issues I guess to me doing it in public. I never went to really nice restaraunts to eat with my children (we still dont), but I think there are many restaurants where it is just fine!
What is the difference between breast feeding and exposing yourself and a drunk girl who whips them out for all to see? Atleast one is actually doing it for a good reason!
It is times like this that I truly cannot understand people. 1. As a rule, be polite. This goes if you are breastfeeding or in the presence of someone else breastfeeding. 2. Regarding the thoroughly ridiculous "bodily function" debate, EATING IS A BODILY FUNCTION. If you don't want to watch people EAT, don't go to a RESTAURANT. 3. Please goodness stop citing a poopy diaper or slurpy baby for a reason to ban them. There's always an example of a horrible incident involving some type of person. If that's the new way we get to do things, I'm banning all teenagers, drunk folks, farty old men, frat boys, young and in love couples, old ladies who are losing their hearing, people who slurp their soup, and anybody with an inability to put their cell phone on vibrate.
Peace.
I'm just curious about the opinion of the "breasts aren't sexual organs" camp on this:
If women's breasts aren't sexual, why bother wearing a bathing suit top at the beach? Or, why cover up the breasts during feeding at all? Why not whip 'em out whenever you want if their just a feeding mechanism?
I guess what I'm getting at is that you can't have it both ways. As long as women cover their breasts by stigma/tradition/habit/etc, they will be considered sexual.
I don't have any problem with women breast feeding in public. Kid has to eat too.
I do however think that if the child is too young to eat solid food, then it's probably a bad idea to be taking him or her out to resteraunts. If the kid is too young to be left at home with a stranger then why would you take him/her to a place with lots of stragners?
interesting article about a swiss restaurant serving breast milk!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newst...
Good Heavens!
I breast fed for 2 years and nobody ever said a negative word to me, ever. In restos, coffee houses, parties, the park, malls, everywhere. NEVER did I or anyone notice a bad odor from the MILK and as far as the poop goes, it's practically odorless compared to formula fed babies. So, you go change the baby.
Besides what I'd like to know is, why are people paying attention to what goes on at another table when they're out to dinner?