stories : Table Manners
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Kids Gone WildHow should restaurants handle misbehaving children? |
Dear Helena,
I am a server in an Italian restaurant. It’s not superfancy, but it’s a nice place. Recently a couple came in with two kids, aged around two and five. The younger kid sat in his high chair screaming incessantly and flinging couscous across the table. The other one roamed round the restaurant, tearing open sugar packets and emptying them onto the floor, and even knocking over a chair at one point. I felt bad for the other customers. But I was scared to ask the parents to control their kids in case they bit my head off. When kids run wild, when should the restaurant intervene, and what’s the best way to go about it? —Flustered Server
Dear Flustered Server,
How kids should behave in restaurants is a contentious issue on the Chowhound message boards. No parent likes to hear anyone tell him his children are misbehaving. But the fact is many children find restaurants pretty boring, and they’re likely to amuse themselves by shredding napkins, mashing food, or using french fries dipped in ketchup as paintbrushes.
On the restaurant’s end, it helps to be smart about where folks with kids are seated. Larry Bouchard, general manager of One Market Restaurant in San Francisco, says, “For the most part … we put families [with young children] in large Pullman booths so they’re contained, as opposed to being on open floor where messes are a little more noticeable.” This way, if the tots do get spaghetti in their hair or use the condiments to make Jackson Pollock–like splatters on their clothes, the only patrons who are bothered are Mom and Dad.
But if a kid drags those french fries along the divider between your booth and his, getting ketchup in your hair, you should feel comfortable asking the server to do something about it, and the server should entrust this sensitive task to someone in management. The same is true if the kids are making too much noise—for instance, screaming, crying, or running their fingers around the wetted rims of wineglasses to make a piercing sound. Of course, adult patrons make plenty of noise too, but arguably it’s more painful to listen to a screeching toddler than to grown-ups’ tipsy conversation.
Maite Montenegro, maître d’ at Daniel in New York, says she’d blame the intervention on the other customers. “I’d tell them somebody has complained their kid is a little bit loud.” But, in my view, that’s unnecessary: The family may spend the rest of the meal wondering which of their fellow diners ratted them out.
It’s more helpful, says Hope Timberlake, a public relations consultant in Mill Valley, California, and mother of two children aged three and six, if the restaurant management has a concrete suggestion, “like offering crayons or a more private table or even asking you to step outside.”
A restaurant can also take measures to make sure only well-behaved future gourmands show up. At Daniel, says Montenegro, if a diner mentions bringing kids at the time of the reservation, he or she will be warned that “dinner lasts three hours.”
Table Manners appears every Wednesday. Have a Table Manners question? Email Helena.
"But I was scared to ask the parents to control their kids in case they bit my head off"
I can not speak for the server, but the manager should be scared that all of the other customers will simply not come back.
"No parent likes to hear anyone tell him his children are misbehaving." To them, I say, "TOUGH!"
The only time I was ever spanked was after I behaved poorly at a casual restaurant. Management should feel comfortable telling customers, "You need to control your child or we'll have to ask you to leave."
Indeed, this is a hot button issue here. I like the notion of strategically seating these potential troublemakers in booths where they can be contained. Any server who finds themselves in a position of having to "say something" to parents about their little darlings definitely puts the gratuity at risk. Management should have the courage to get involved as needed, but many don't.
Some children are ready to eat in nice restaurants as young as 4 or 5. Others can't handle sitting still until they reach 10 or older. There are many, many child-appropriate places they can be taken where they can LEARN their restaurant manners. But parents who allow their spawn to ruin other people's dining experiences are as rude as their children.
Speaking of courage, I, for one, do not hesitate to caution an errant child about their behavior. A couple of years ago there was a 4-year old literally running past my table at a restaurant. After several laps past my chair, and a near-collision with a server carrying a tray of food, I resisted the urge to "accidentally" stick my foot out and trip him, but I did wave him down and he stopped next to me. "Where's your mommy?" I asked. "Over there" he said, waving in some distant direction. "Well, let's go find her" I said, and I got up, took his sticky little hand, and we walked back to where his family was sitting.
Their table was a shambles -- food all over, and another little monster-in-training was securely strapped into a highchair, being fed by a very harried woman whose husband looked like he was trying to pretend the whole thing wasn't happening. "Is this your child?" I asked cheerfully. "Oh yes" she said. "He was about to turn over a tray of food at the other end of the restaurant' I said.. The look on her face was priceless.
One of the most popular restaurants in this area, did not allow kids. I think the business they lost not allowing kids, was made up by people knowing that when they came in to dine, it would be a pleasant experience. I know I get uneasy seeing kids at the next table, just thinking that they might start screaming.
And as far as the kid in the next booth dragging his ketchup laden french fry through my hair...well, I would not call the waitress to straighten things out.
jim Peterson
jimpeterson ... I am curious ....(and not being facetious) -- just how did this restaurant not allow kids? Was there a sign on the door? A stern hostess? A line painted on the front that indicated "you must be this tall to eat here"? A notation in the advertisements? Just knowing that such a rule existed and was enforced would DEFINITELY draw me to a place like that.
Im just waiting for the string of protests here from parents who will whine "but you don't understand! We want to eat out in nice places even though we have kids!" Well, allow me to introduce the concept of BABYSITTERS. Nice young/old ladies who come to your house and, for an hourly fee, allow you to leave the precious darlings in capable care while YOU enjoy a quiet, calm and delicious meal at the restaurant of your choice.
Cheflambo, my I asked my sister to take me to a moderate to upscale restaurant for my birthday this year. Being that she has a three year old, I told her to ask when she called for reservations if they allowed children. She said that they didn't. I told her that I didn't want her to pay a babysitter, too, so we went somewhere else. She wasn't mad about it or anything. She would still go there when she didn't have her daughter, so I don't know if it is necessarily a deterrant to have a no children policy.
My point is, I guess I just assumed that there are some places where children just wouldn't be welcome and although they didn't have any signs or anything of the sort, that was their policy. I just believe that there some times that it is not appropriate to take children to a particular restaurant out of respect for the other patrons.
>> I just believe that there some times that it is not appropriate to take children to a particular restaurant out of respect for the other patrons. <<
That's IT, Carrie. If only more parents felt this way.
If a child is mentioned during the reservation process, THAT is the time to say, politely, no kids. But Im sure just as often, the subject doesn't come up, and if the restaurant has that policy, it should be mentioned during EVERY reservation conversation.
But as we both know, youngsters of a certain age WILL show up and be seated in even the nicest places. A great majority of them do know at least some restaurant manners and understand "THE LOOK" from mom or dad to quell any potential outbursts. That's why we never notice them. Its the "oh let him run, Im tired of dealing with him" parents that get all our attention, and their own thread here.
For the poster who wrote they were "fearful" of dining out when there are children at a nearby table. Be careful dear, those snotty nosed sticky handed hooligans can smell fear muah ha ha! Oh puuuhlease not every child is a hooligan ;)
But seriously, I do take my kids out to dinner on occasion. I take care to make sure before we even set foot in the car to go out that they're well rested, not sick, not whiney/teething... I also sit them down and explain what's expected of them when we get there...no, the two year old doesn't fully get it but he's not usually the one I have to worry about oddly enough.and I make sure we're armed with our own colouring books, quiet toys and the like and we go early in the evening so the resto is at it's least busy and we can get a table son after arrival. I know their limits though and fully understand the "concept of babysitters" thank you very much and leave the kids at home when the dinner is anywhere the words amuse bouche are used.
sorry...I see now it was "uneasy" not fearful... still... lol.
You know, if a kid misbehaves and causes disrruption and they are 0 to 6 or so, it isn't their fault. It's the fault of the parents who did not properly raise their kids, or miscalculated in a good place to bring the anklebiters.
Still, there should be solace for the other paying diners. I hate eating next to a brat with permissive or lazy parents. If the kid is being a pain in the ass, the establishment should, and does have the right to refuse service, and kick the who lot out, and still charge for what they crammed down whilst junior was screaming his head off and cartwheeling past the tables.
Fine dining should not involve anyone under the age of 10 who can't behave, and very few can, cause they just ain't got the attention span. Get a sitter. If you can't find one, ask for pick up or take out, set the home table up nice, and use the opportunity to teach the kiddies manners in fine dining at home.
I love a parent who expects and demands good behavior from the kids, and one who is ready to prepare for it ahead of time, and find a quick resolution should things fall apart!
Diana, I don't think anyone is disputing that it is the parents fault. That is where I have the beef...the parents. If they are like maplesugar, more power to ya. That's not where the problem is.
My thought is that I just really couldn't fathom taking a kid to a fine dining place in the first place. That's why the first thought that popped into my head was, hey, is my niece even allowed? I can see taking your kids to other types of restaurants to help teach them table manners, etc. But, at a white linen place where people are paying for an upscale or romantic environment? What's the point? Just because you can?
The bottom line is that the same people who's kids are so oblivious to their kids running around being hooligans are hardly going to have the conscience of mind to care about anyone else in the first place. Gee, junior, isn't this foie gras just delicious!?!
Kudos to those restaurants which say in advance, "no kids allowed", kudos to those restaurants which step in when the behavior of children gets out of hand and kudos to those restaurants which provide coloring pages and other sources of amusement.
I speak from experience. When I was about five or six years in age, I had to wait for what seemed hours with my elders and became very bored. Had I brought along a book to read, such as Seven Little Postmen or Smokey The Bear, that might not have been good manners, but it would have beat spilling my milk (as I did at an old Lum's hot dog place). I'm glad that many restaurants take kids into consideration nowadays; in fact there are some restaurants which have special nights for kids with entertainers who make animal balloons, perform magic tricks and more.
I witnessed the following in a nice, UES restaurant last week, a set of parents (with grandparents) brought their two children and were seated in the middle of the restaurant.The older child, about 3, had just learned to shriek, and happily let out shrieks about every five minutes, piercing the quiet of the restaurant. The infant, perhaps provoked, began to cry, and the mother picked up the baby, opened her blouse and breast fed it in the restaurant.
Halfway through, her husband draped a raincoat over her so that breast and baby were shielded from the stares that other diners were throwing at the table. There was no effort by the server, manager or the grandparents to calm the shrieking child and/or ask the mother to walk about six steps to the ladies' room, where she could have fed her child in private. Instead, the table just chatted away as if the feeding and shrieks were not happening.
I didn't want to veer into the "nursing zone" here ... but thanks, Brenda. I had thought about this too. Oy vey ... and on the UES. I am LOL.
These people are in their own little world. That it spills out into our faces doesnt seem to concern them. Management SHOULD step in at this point. There are SO many other ways to deal with a baby that you KNOW is going to be hungry at some point during your oh-so-public evening. The shrieking child? Mom doesn't hear it - she tuned it out so that she could enjoy her meal.
Having worked in the restaurant for more than a decade, I agree that management should be the one to intervene and they should intervene after a second small outburst or if the children are bothering servers and other guests.
BTW many states have laws that allow breast feeding in public and if you live in such a state, there can obviously be no expectation of the mother feeding in the bathroom (which seems like a bad idea to begin with....)
As far as I'm concerned, if the parents can afford to dine at Daniel, they can and should pay for a sitter!
A child who is shrieking or running amok is one thing; management (not the waitstaff or other customers) should take care of it in that case. A nursing mother is another thing entirely; it's not disruptive, and you don't have to look. What's the big deal?
Healthy children are quite simple and straight foreward in their tastes. They enjoy simple food, familiar tastes, and most of them have a restricted repertory of food they really enjoy. Healthy children enjoy eating but, after they finish their food they will want to do something also. Their developing brains aren't still ready to concentrate for too long, and their growing bodies are not ready to sit still for a long time. In a child, everything is about learning, exploring and making new discoveries. The decision of becoming a parent means dedicating part of your life to this small, developing person, so you'll have to make plenty of sacrifices.
You don't own you children. Most of times when you see a kid messing around in a restautrant is because the parents aren't really caring for them. They're tortured kids, being subjected to their parents selfish desires. A loving parent tries hardly to understand how a child feels in every situation, and not to expose their kids to situations with wich they aren't able to cope.Children need limits, but in a measure they cn learn with it. Otherwise, it is cruelty. There are so many kid friendly restaurants, with lots of food children love, activities, playgrounds, other families, ecc. And if you must go to a fancy place where your child won't be able to be a child, hire a sitter or stay home.
And yes, i think the staff should intervene. Sometimes i do, when kids are misbehaving in elevators, malls, shops, public transportation, ecc. They're persons, they live in society and must learn to respect others. If theyr parents don't teach them, it's our duty to do it.
Unless you're eating at a restaurant that caters to children, I think you really need to be respectful of the other patrons that may be trying to get away from their own children for the night. Even if it's just Olive Garden, this may be a very special night for the couple. Maybe they saved up all month for the evening. Regardless, everyone deserves to have a nice peaceful meal.
Azizeh, you bring up a good point. Yesterday, I was at a "family-friendly" restaurant when the toddler at the table next to us started banging her plate oh, every 5 mins. or so. People were giving the table dirty looks, but nothing was done. This was also around 9am, so it was particularly jarring. I let it go b/c I figured it was a place where families commonly dine, but maybe I should expect more.
Personally, I did not bring my children to any restaurants except for the local diner until they were about 6-7. And even then, it was mostly chains. I definitely did not bring them to places where patrons spend a decent amount of money and were most likely looking forward to a relaxing dining experience sans screaming, whining kids. Some people I know think that you should start taking your kids out to such establishments to "socialize" them, but I think that's ridiculous. I would not have wanted to spring my kids to the unsuspecting public all in the name of a social experiment! Manners begin at home, and that's where my kids learned.
Also, when I walk into a fine restaurant or am checking in for a flight or anywhere where I will be in a confined environment for at least a couple of hours, and I see kids of a certain age group, I wince and cross my fingers that I don't have to sit near them.
I don't care if it's the local diner or a five star restaurant - it is absolutely inexcusable that a parent would allow their children to misbehave to the extent that they are disturbing other diners.
I don't understand how there can even be a debate on this topic.
Speaking of kids and manners, I was at WF last wekend, and saw two little kids stuffing themselves from the bulk bins whilt daddy looked on. Daddy finally stepped away, but one little snotty princess (and she was oozing snot, by the way) came back to reach in and grab another gobfull. I said "Oh no, no, honey, that's not right!" She looked stupidly at me, and moved away (she was just beyond toddler, maybe 4 or 5).
Daddy came up and said "It's not up to you to tell my children how to behave"
I responded "I'm sorry, but it's not hygenic or fair for them to be reaching into the bins to grab food and then eating it unpaid for".
Other shoppers were watching, and SuperDad backed off.
I get the feeling Mr. Permissive had sorta taught his brats how to grab, cram, and steal.
When they grow up and he has issues with bad behavior, then he'll blame the schools for "not teaching my kids right".
We have an 18-month-old, so we're pretty sensitive about this issue when we take him out to a restaurant, which we've done since he was born, so it's a fairly familiar situation to him, and he's generally pretty well behaved. He likes to sit at the table with mommy and daddy and friends, and is interested in trying the foods we like. He makes a bit of a mess, of course, but we try to keep it all pretty contained. For instance he might do things like grab food off our plates, which we take as a positive sign that he likes the food, but we keep him well supplied on his plate once we've figured out what he's in the mood for at that moment, so he's not as inclined to poach, and he's starting to get the hang of using utensils. He doesn't run around the restaurant or scream, because he's figured out, even at eighteen months, that that's just not what one does, and he likes being at the table with us.
We generally try to make sure he's well rested before we go out, and that usually keeps things under control, but if he gets antsy and it's clear that he's losing patience, then we ask to have the leftovers wrapped up and go home. Aside from the issue of disturbing other diners, there's no use making him sit through something he doesn't want to do at that age.
I have seen this happen too. Central Market here in Houston has an olive/condiment bar, and two children, ages about 8 and 10, (old enough to know better) were helping themselves to the olives, and then dropping the pits on the floor. (I am NOT making this up). When they got in my way as I tried to package up my selections, I said (as patiently as I could) "Girls, its not a snack bar." The older one shot me a nasty look. "Where are your parents?" I asked. Blank stare. "Did you know that the store will charge you for what you ate?" The younger (and wiser) one tugged at her sister's sleeve and said "lets go look at the lobsters".
During the same shopping trip I watched a 10-year-old boy help himself to large handfulls of pistachios from an open bin. Do I even need to tell you where the shells were going? When I asked him how he was going to pay for what he ate, he said "dad said its OK".
What puzzles me about all these incidents (and obviously many people witness this) is that no one in authority (salespeople in the stores, managers in restaurants) seems to have the courage to confront these parents about this. Apparently these places would rather lose ME as a customer, than someone who decided to bring their children along to "help" them shop.
I worked at a restaurant that, while it did not prohibit children, also did nothing to encourage their presence. There were no highchairs, no crayons, and no paper menus. There was, however, a childrens menu consisting of a couple of pastas without meat, and chicken fingers and fries, with each entree at $14.00. We had very few problems with children.
I will never forget the time my friend and I went to a small restaurant with his one year old daughter. This kid was used to restaurants, having accompanied her parents eating out at least once a week since she herself was all of 7 days old, but I digress. Anyway, after her dad put her in the restaurant high chair she let out a screech the likes I've never heard before, and didn't stop. I was horrified, not only wondering what the heck was wrong with her, but I also knew the disturbance she was causing. Can you imagine?
Upon further investigation as to what was causing this screaming fit, I quickly realized the top of the high chair was pinching her and hurting her. As soon as I released the top, peace prevailed and she returned to her previously happy mood. Thank God, because I was really looking forward to their homemade Italian food and no way would we have stayed if she'd continued.
Not having high chairs will definitely keep parties with small children away. We've had experiences in some neighborhoods of going from one restaurant to the next looking for a place with a high chair.
Another issue though is high chairs in poor repair. The most common problem we see is with the stacking wooden high chairs that have a nylon strap with a Fastex buckle. The buckle breaks eventually and is never replaced, so the strap is useless. Aside from the fact that these chairs are probably exposing the restaurant owners to liability, it makes it a lot harder to deal with a toddler in a restaurant when they're tempted to squirm out of a high chair or stand up in the chair instead of maintaining attention to the meal.
Also some waiters are better than others at serving to a table with a small child. The basic rule is: don't put anything within the child's reach, if you don't want them to handle it, like hot food, hot soup, sharp utensils, water glasses, and stemware. To facilitate this, it's a good idea to seat a family with a small child at a larger table, so they can keep things at a safe distance and also, because they're probably carrying extra things like a changing bag and such. If the parents can be relaxed, the child will be more relaxed, and everything goes more smoothly.
Kudos to you, David A. Goldfarb, for your prudent observations of kids in restaurants.
I've been waiting tables in two chain restaurants for the past few years and it's always interesting to see how parents control their kids. My favorite tables are the ones that don't let the kids play with the sugar caddies or the salt and pepper and assist me in placing the plates and drinks far away from the reaches of little ones (especially in booths with high chairs placed at the end. Always tricky).
My least favorite tables are the ones oblivious to the smashed saltines, broken crayons, and desecrated sugar caddies. I even had a table who, in the middle of a very busy lunch service at the height of the restaurant's Christmas rush, changed her daughter's diaper on the table. Her father and his friend were worse than nonplussed; they encouraged her to do it. The horror. I ran to get my manager and when she confronted the lady with the obvious health implications of confusing a dinner table with a changing table, was yelled at by the woman. The woman then demanded that Elena comp her meal because of the "stress" Elena was putting her through.
Elena, always a tough cookie, didn't comp the meal. The check was a little over $100. I got $5. You heard that right.
I think it's such a wrong to do to a child not to teach them how to behave in public and then insist on it. I have a son and a daughter and by five they were so proficient at ordering and protocol that I still get a laugh today when remembering my son's first time to order all by himself and telling the waiter 'I'll have the whatever to start.' He was like five. The point is that if they want to be with adults enjoying adult experiences why on earth wouldn't they be told that their behavior is a big part of that? I never wanted anyone to say 'Oh god, she's bringing her kids.' That's not fair to the child. To let them be disliked because I didn't tell them what was expected.
My daughter is now in my position with a 3 year old of her own and I'm afraid that he can be quite 'independent' shall we say when in public or anywhere else for that matter. Times are just very different but I still place the responsibility on the parents to insist that the child behave properly. And don't get me wrong; I'm not some stick in the mud proper type. Quite the opposite. I just think it's so great all the way around to have children that are a pleasure to be around and mine were. They're on their own training theirs I'm afraid. But do it or don't take them to restaurants.
I don't have any children, but my best friend has two girls who might as well be my nieces. Now four and seven, they didn't visit restaurants until they could sit through an entire meal at home without wiggling, whining, or getting messy. The younger girl still has trouble sometimes, but my friend is perfectly comfortable bringing her older daughter, Elizabeth, anywhere, and her behavior is always wonderful.
Actually, last year I met her Elizabeth at a restaurant somewhere. There was a brat running around, screaming, crying, throwing things, getting in the way of servers with trays of hot food, you name it. In a moment when the restaurant was quiet, Elizabeth asked my friend, "Mommy, why is that boy being so bad? He should get a time out!" The mother of the misbehaving kid heard, and was actually shamed into controlling her son for the rest of the meal. It was awesome.
Amazing, isn't it? If an adult had said something about the wildchild, there might have been a confrontation. But when another CHILD speaks up, the parent listens. Go figure.....
There's a 9 y/o boy who comes (reluctantly) to my saturday "family" yoga class. His mother has been dragging him there for several years (Ive learned) and he has yet to understand why he's there. While we concentrate on our breathing and our poses, this kid flops around, talks, climbs on his mom or dad, and generally does his best to disrupt the class. The instructor has even been known to cut the class short because "Daniel" cant get it together.
One day a little girl of 5 or so was in class, watching the usual performance, and she finally said "Tsk ... what a brat!" loud enough for EVERYONE to hear. Well, everyone except Daniel's parents, who still refuse to see or hear what he's doing.
Well... i have to take issue with the, um, issue of breastfeeding in public. Would you want to eat in the ladies room? Didn't think so. To expect a nursing mother who is discreetly nursing to go into a public restroom to nurse her infant is slightly ridiculous. And gross. It's perfectly natural and ok for a mom to nurse her kid in public. That's how it eats, folks.
However, I do think that it is ok to expect parents to control their children in a public place. I own a small bakery/cafe that's pretty family-friendly, plus I have children of my own, but it still bugs when the littles run all over the place screaming and potentially tripping folks, or lie down and have a giant tantrum and the parent just sits there staring off into space and smiling or gossiping with their friends. When our kids were young (they're 10 and 11 now and great in restraunts) if they started acting up, we'd pack them up and go, no questions asked. There's nothing wrong with an expectation of responsible parenting when other people are being affected.
>>What puzzles me about all these incidents (and obviously many people witness this) is that no one in authority (salespeople in the stores, managers in restaurants) seems to have the courage to confront these parents about this. Apparently these places would rather lose ME as a customer, than someone who decided to bring their children along to "help" them shop. >>
They have probably learned from experience that even the most tactful request to modulate a kid's behavior can often be met with a screaming fit from the parent. The worse the kid's behavior, the more the parent is apt to feel that his/her parenting skills are being attacked and react in an over-the top-way. After a while you decide it's better to just jolly those people along and get rid of them with as little disturbance as possible.
Oh, and if you're a salesperson in a store (or otherwise on the front lines) you can probably get written up for having an altercation with a customer even if you never raise your voice while they are yelling their heads off. Sucks, but bad diners/customers/whatevers often get what they want in this way, and they have no incentive to stop it.
Cheflambo, the servers and store clerks probably do want to say something, they're just fearful of their job.
I work at a restaurant that is part of an upscale, small (50 restaurants) chain. It is owned by one man, but has a corporate nature. We're very focused on our guests and if they sent in a letter saying that their server was rude to them and their children, heads would roll. Sometimes a general/regional manager wants to set an example and doesn't bother to vouch for the employee they've had for years. They just decide that it's not reasonable to keep an employee that may have been rude to a paying customer. Of course it's not right, but that may explain why everything is left to the frazzled managers to do.
Oh I fully appreciate the risk one takes when the job entails dealing with this situation. But my statement was aimed more at the managers and the people who DO have the authority to tell some lady (regardless of how much she just spent on her meal) that you do NOT CHANGE A BABY DIAPER ON A DINING TABLE. (And kudos to the one above who did!) I realize that for the server to gently suggest "you might find the changing table in the ladie's room a bit easier" puts her gratuity in jeopardy, but a Manager who tells the customer that what she is doing is a hygeine risk to others is just doing their job.
This is why I feel no hesitation at all in speaking to the offending children in the situations upthread here. I dont have anything to lose. Its not my store, so technically its not my "place", but as a consumer who doesn't want to draw my food from the same bin that a sniveling rugrat has repeated stuck his hand in, I don't mind speaking up. If a parent wants to chew ME out because I've pointed out the flaws in their parenting, hey Im tough - I can take it. Because I know I'm right (and the store would agree).
As you've probably already deduced, I am NOT a parent. Many of my friends are, and one in particular used to really get my goat by bringing her child to our aerobics class (she was the instructor). When the baby was small and just sat in a chair, it was OK. As she got older, she would toddle around the room get into her mom's purse and pull things out, start to explore OUR purses, etc. In the year or so when this was really becoming a problem, I never once hear the mother say "NO" to this child. Her mother gave up trying to pass the child on to her dad for the hour or so that we worked out, because the little princess made such a fuss, and dad "couldnt deal with it":
Did I say anything? No. Why not? Well, its not because the mom was a lawyer (who should have known enough to recognize the liability of the situation!). But I knew that it was only for an hour, a couple of times a week, and having the LP there meant the difference between whether or not the class started on time. Also we had been friends for a long time, and I knew that since I was not a parent myself, anything resembling criticism would be met with deaf ears. I did (and still do) value our friendship, and the Little Princess is now 8 years old, and has the nicest manners I've ever seen on a child. They can take her anywhere.
And now let me pose this question to the servers who are reading this post -- have you ever had occasion where your gratuity was actually BOOSTED by the guilty feelings of parents whose chlidren were loud, messy or rude? (It CAN happen!) I'd like to hear those stories too.
I'm surprised at the response this thread has had. I guess someone could be on either side depending whether or not you had children. I don't have them, and I don't like to be around them, especially when I'm trying to enjoy a good meal....But....I've spent 1/3 of my young life living in Mexico. I've eaten in restaurants that were tar-paper shacks, 100 miles from the nearest hard road, to the best Mexico has to offer, and I don't believe I've ever seen a family member correct their kid in a restaurant. They just let them run wild. So, at least things aren't quite that bad here.
Oh...a note to Chefambo...the restaurant that I used to frequent that didn't allow children, was the old Wally's Hot Springs, in Genoa, Nevada. There was no sign telling people that they couldn't bring their kids, or any notice of any kind. When you showed up with kids, you were told they weren't allowed. There also wasn't a sign of any kind telling you that it was a restaurant, or any advertising either. The place was out in the country, and you just had to look for it.
We were lucky. My son loved to go out to eat (or at least go out to restaurants, he was too transfixed to eat most of the time) and never made so much as a peep the whole time. Had he not been that way we wouldn't have taken him out to restaurants. Period.
"To expect a nursing mother who is discreetly nursing to go into a public restroom to nurse her infant is slightly ridiculous. And gross. It's perfectly natural and ok for a mom to nurse her kid in public."
Kayke, I can't fully agree with you. There are lots of things that are perfectly acceptable in public in general that still strike some of us as rather inappropriate in a restaurant. This thread is no different than the ones about wearing beach clothes, chatting on your cell phone, etc.; just because you can do it doesn't mean you should, especially in a formal restaurant. As others have said, with parenthood comes responsibilities and hard choices. You can't have a baby and eat your foie gras too.
Back when most restaurants around here had smoking and non-smoking sections we would always answer the hostess's question "smoking or nonsmoking?" with "non-screaming baby section please." We don't have kids, and don't plan to. When we do spend money to eat out we actually want to enjoy it. Nothing ruins a great steak quicker than having a family with screaming kids seated next to you. If there were a "no children" restaurant here I know we would go. What a heavenly idea. Don't get me wrong, I like kids. Love my nieces and nephews. I just don't think they should be inflicted on the public who are paying for an enjoyable evening -- whether it is a chez whatever or the Olive Garden or even the local diner until they can behave in public.
The problem isn't the children - it's the parents who feel that they are entitled to any behavior they choose which includes the behavior of their children. People in general have poor manners, and it's getting worse all the time.
Your average American slob thinks it's perfectly normal and acceptable to go out to dinner dressed in clothes more suited for hanging out in a barnyard - flip-flops, tee-shirts with sayings and/or huge logos all over them, dirty pants, sweats, etc.
When we dine in a restaurant we are in a public setting, yet so many feel that they can dress and behave as if they were in their own filthy trailers. It's depressing and disgusting how far our standards have fallen.
In Europe, South America, and Asia, when one goes out, it's usually in your better clothes, and you are expected to be polite and good mannered. Here in America, it's a free-for-all where parents don't discipline children and allow any and all sorts of improper behavior. I don't enjoy most public settings anymore because of the boorish behavior of people.
I have to agree 100% with kayke here. There are still a lot of people (many in my mom's generation), who have a problem with breastfeeding, period, and thus don't want to see it in public. I'm sorry, but that's your hangup, not mine. If you are perfectly willing to go to the restroom to eat your dinner to avoid seeing me nurse my son, feel free to do so. I am NOT feeding my son in a public restroom. My mother used to leave the room when I nursed my son...her hangup. My mother-in-law (from Europe), had no such issues.
It's not a hard choice that you have to make when you are a parent.. I can eat AND feed a baby at the same time. In fact, in California, companies are required to place for a mother/employee to pump THAT IS NOT A RESTROOM. So why would I feed my baby there?
Alas, that was more than a year ago. My toddler is generally well behaved in restaurants now, but when he misbehaves, one of us takes him outside or we leave. However, in general, we don't eat out very often. I don't find it enjoyable. My son can be quiet nicely for about 30 mins. That means one of us (either my spouse or myself) is eating a cold dinner, and we are rarely able to converse with our friends while trying to keep him quiet. Having them over for dinner is MUCH better - we can talk, and my son can play with his toys.
Don't even get me started on plane trips...have one of those coming up. That's when you bring out the big guns (DVD player).
I have no problem with mothers nursing their children. And I understand that it is considered politically incorrect to object to this. But if you're going to take your baby to a nice restaurant at a time when you KNOW he/she is going to be hungry, the best course would be to pump in advance and bring a bottle. Really. It seems like the hormones women generate soon after childbirth render them immune to the sensibilities of others. Yes yes, its perfectly natural -- its how the baby eats. There are plenty of other "natural" things a baby does that the general public doesn't want to participate in either.
Many fine dining establishments have a secluded area where this can be discreetly done (and yes, some of those places are behind the "ladies room" door -- check it out before you turn it down) I fully appreciate not wanting to nurse your baby while you sit in a toilet stall but there are other places. Once you leave home and join the general public, its not just about you and your baby any more. Are you going to nurse your baby at your older child's soccer game? In church to keep him quiet? At the food court in the mall? Where do you draw the line?
"Are you going to nurse your baby at your older child's soccer game? In church to keep him quiet? At the food court in the mall?"
Yes.
That said, *if* there's a quiet and clean place to do it, I would opt for that. Not for the people who whine about breastfeeding in public, but for my comfort and that of my child.
For example, the stands at a sports game will be noisy, and you're likely to get jostled. It's clearly not the ideal place to nurse a child.
I know this is getting a little off-topic here, but I am interested in this conversation about the etiquette of breastfeeding. Clearly over the past 50-60 years the pendulum has swung away and back again - breastfeeding has been proven to be the most ideal and inexpensive way to feed a child. There are probably a lot of American women who will breastfeed now, but who were themselves not breastfed. I am curious to know what rules our grandmothers or great-grandmothers followed when breastfeeding. I don't have children, but I probably will someday and I will breastfeed them. Of course, this is speculation, but I think that I wouldn't have a problem feeding them at the mall or at a casual resto. But I definitely would not feed them at my synnagogue's services nor would I do so at a really nice place. Did women of past generations feel that breastfeeding 'anytime, anyplace' was appropriate, or were there some rules about it? Should there be rules now? (not laws, but social norms)
My mother didn't breastfeed, so I can't tell you what the rules were. My mother-in-law, from Europe, did, and openly.
"Are you going to nurse your baby at your older child's soccer game? In church to keep him quiet? At the food court in the mall? Where do you draw the line? "
Yes. Yes, and Yes. And I don't draw the line. I nursed my son in nice restaurants, at the mall, in the car, on a plane, in friends' and relatives homes, wherever he is hungry. Whatever the usefulness of pumping is...it's not perfect. Some children never take a bottle, only the breast. On long car or plane trips, it's not always possible to take enough milk - eventually, you will have to nurse, for your own comfort at least. And in a nice restaurant...I would guess that if the toddler hadn't been yelling (as mentioned by the poster), that few people would have even noticed the nursing.
Babies don't always get hungry when you expect them to. So you deal. I know in our town, it's well known what "comfy" places there are to nurse (for example, the ladies "lounge" at a local retailer). But if you are out for a nice dinner because your in-laws are visiting from the opposite coast, and your 5-week old son (who isn't taking a bottle yet) wakes up and gets hungry...you feed him.
I really can't speak for what was appropriate many years ago. My great great grandmother had 18 children and worked the fields. She probably didn't worry about "decorum". By my mother's time, the midwestern-Catholic-guilt-stuffiness-breasts-are-icky meant she didn't breastfeed. Some of my older sisters were having kids in the hippy era, where breastfeeding was more common. My best friend is traveling soon to Malaysia, where breastfeeding in public is socially unacceptable (as opposed to Denmark, where it's normal.)
We have three kids - 3, 3, and 2. We started eating at the Chinese buffet until they mastered the art of eating in a restaurant. Why did we pick this place? Because you pay ahead of time, you have immediate access to food, and there there was plenty for the kids to try out. The second that we arrive, we flagged down the server and asked to put all the condiments and sugar packets in a secure location, and we dropped the tip on the table in case we had to bolt.
We also would bring a cutting board, paring knife, the kids own plates, and their own sippy cups so that they were prepared for a normal dinner routine.
This seems like overkill, but we managed to "train" the kids to have a nice, calm meal, and have started to stretch our wings and have had successful meals at other restaurants now. Any time there was a hint of an impending meltdown, my husband or I would give a warning, start eating as fast as we could, and get ready to leave at the first sign of howling or inappropriate behavior. We've even eaten at this restaurant with six kids under three and only two adults (the looks going in were PRICELESS) without a single incident, and with compliments and thank you's for the well-behaved kids.
Yes, this is quite a stretch from the pre-kid days. We are the ones who chose to have kids, and we knew going in it was our job to raise them. If this means limited dining options for the next couple of years, so be it. Kids that grow up understanding proper behavior and manners if worth more than a nice hot meal I didn't cook any day!
(And besides - there is always carryout!)
Karen ... this is a perfect solution to feeding little ones! They get the restaurant experience without having to decide from a menu and wait for the food. Also an excellent way for them to taste new things without being committed to an entire "order" of something they discover they don't like. You've anticipated every problem and have Plan B in place as needed. No surprise that you were complimented on their behavior. Bravo!!
I am always surprised by parents who think they have some licence to allow their child(ren) to disturb others. On the other hand I am aware that roughly 10% of the adult population has some kind of personality disorder.
Every interaction we have with our kids teaches them how to interact with their own children in the future.
Leaving a restaurant once, I walked by a table with a very obnoxious family, parents swilling Martinis while their kids bounced off the walls and with a smile on my face asked the parents: "Are you in town for the day?" They were speechless.
The following week I was back and the manager asked me what I had said to them because one moment it looked like they were going to rip the place apart and the next the kids were sitting completely still with their hands folded in their laps.
Nope, I still don't understand. I understand that babies need to be nursed when they need to be nursed, that you have every right to take your child to most public places & take care of their needs as they arise.
Obviously, to edit that, you have the right to take them anywhere. But you *shouldn't* take them to nice restaurants for the sake of your fellow diners. That's the whole point. Hire a babysitter or stay home (or go to family-friendly restaurants; I disagree with those who say it shouldn't be done there).
Hence, it's not a "hangup." I don't have a problem with anyone doing anything in the right circumstances. Wear flip-flops to the burger joint. Chat on your cell at the taco stand. Nurse your baby at Chuck E. Cheese. But don't do any of the above at a place where a certain amount of formality is expected.
Nope, I still don't understand. I understand that babies need to be nursed when they need to be nursed, that you have every right to take your child to most public places & take care of their needs as they arise.
Obviously, to edit that, you have the right to take them anywhere. But you *shouldn't* take them to nice restaurants for the sake of your fellow diners. That's the whole point. Hire a babysitter or stay home (or go to family-friendly restaurants; I disagree with those who say it shouldn't be done even there).
Hence, it's not a "hangup." I don't have a problem with anyone doing anything in the right circumstances. Wear flip-flops to the burger joint. Chat on your cell at the taco stand. Nurse your baby at Chuck E. Cheese. But don't do any of the above at a place where a certain amount of formality is expected.
Nurse your kid in a restaurant? Gee......I don't know. I guess maybe it depends on how nice your boobs are.....
I see nursing in a restaurant as a very different issue from children misbehaving in a restaurant, because nursing is normal behavior. I also don't see nursing as incompatible with formality. It can be done fairly discreetly even in a public setting and doesn't produce odors or loud noises that other people can't avoid. If one finds it disturbing for some reason, it isn't necessary to watch.
"I am aware that roughly 10% of the adult population has some kind of personality disorder."
And how!
On the topic of kids behaving badly, it's interesting that there really doesn't seem to be much dispute here. Pretty much everyone here agrees that a) it's a delight to eat with well-behaved children, b) it's annoying to eat with horrible children, c) other people shouldn't have to deal with the horrible children of others and d) horrible children are typically the product of horrible parents who really don't care about other people. Oh, and e) managers who step up to chastise these horrible parents should be given medals.
The sad realization is that none of these horrible parents seem to read CHOW and thus will never hear our words of wisdom/complaint. And they know what they're doing. They know it's wrong. That's why they get so angry and defensive when confronted. Nobody likes being called out, especially when they know that they're the ones who screwed up.
I only wish common sense was, you know, COMMON.
To paraphrase my hero, W.C. Fields, "I love children, if they're properly cooked.":
From the OP:
>>When kids run wild, when should the restaurant intervene, and what’s the best way to go about it?>>
My opinion: Certainly when the kids are running around unsupervised, creating a danger to themselves and others. At that point a manager (rather than a server, for all the reasons cited above) can and should invoke safety. Tell them they're going to have to keep the kids at the table. If they can't or won't, wrap the food up to go.
If they are sitting at the table but just making a lot of noise or something, it's harder to justify intervening. At my favorite Italian restaurant, staff pay a *lot* of attention to families with kids. The owner comes by and talks to them-- including the kids-- in a friendly manner, early on and more than once. The server also engages the children. The positive attention really seems to work, maybe because it reminds these families they are in a social setting. If a family did go on causing a ruckus (which I have not seen at this place) fellow diners would be aware that at least staff were trying to manage it. Same would be the case with misbehaving adults, actually. It helps that this restaurant has tons of staff, so they have time to "love-bomb" problem diners.
Dana__what, your posting begs the question: Has anyone ever witnessed a restaurant manager who has ever chastised a parent of a misbehaving child, a misbehaving parent or a misbehaving restaurant patron? And if so, how have the other restaurant patrons reacted?
Sorry but I couldn't help asking.
I enjoy dining in restraunts where kids eat if they are well behaved. I like to see them even if they are standing in the booths and talking and making a little mess. This is normal behavior for a toddler. I have no problem with this. If they are misbehaving, and the parents are just oblivious to what is going on, that is another story. If you find youself in a situation where kids running wild or screaming maybe the solution is to ask to speak to the manager and complain, that your meal was totally disrupted and you will not return if something is not done. If enough patrons did this, maybe management would get the message that they have to deal with it. It is a delicate situation, I realize that. If the majority of diners who are not able to enjoy a meal would complain to the management maybe the management would finally get the message, either deal with unrully kids or loose partons that would be more likely return than the ones with the kids, who would want them back anyway. I just dont see the logic in management who would take the risk of loosing a lot more patrons from not dealing with these situations than just loosing people who drive the majority of people away. Lets all take a proactive approach to this and from now on request to speak to the manager and make sure they know you were unhappy and will not return.
As a sometime business owner, my reaction to people who are quick to threaten with not returning is "Mind the door." Speak to the manager; don't being out the heavy artillery so fast.
That said, a restaurant where no one seems to care about kids running around is one I won't return to. Those places actually seem to draw more and more patrons with uncontrolled children; work probably gets around that no one minds.
Mind the door, that is exactly what I would be doing. I would hope more people would be minding the door as well.
Ask the manager to handle the situation and then see how the situation is resolved, if at all. If nothing is done, the writing is on the wall, or the door if you will. Ask for your food to be put in to go containers (if you care to) and get up and leave right then. Dont return. If the manager doesn't care then I most likely would not want to return anyway. I am not saying you should walk out without paying - it was not the restaurants fault the unruly family came in, it is their fault if they allow the behavior to continue though.
The idea of charging outragous kids meal prices to discourage kids is interesting but as I said, I do enjoy eating with kids around if they are well behaved. I love kids!
I still feel that if more people would let the manager know how unhappy they are with the situation, sooner or later they would get the message. I think everyone who is being overly annoyed with unruly kids needs to let management know. How else are they going to learn that they need to deal with these type of problems.
It does nothing if you just sit there and complain to those around you give dirty looks to the family, (which more than likely would have the effect of just creating more problems) and you take no action whatsoever. The management needs to know people are unhappy. You need to be proactive!
One side note, breastfeeding done discretely does not bother me in the least but I think I have heard it all when I read the blog above that told of someone changing a diaper on the table. That is truly unbelieveably disgusting and definitely a health problem...it amazes me sometimes how truly uncouth people can be.
Well, I guess I'm lucky I live in California, where it's acceptable to nurse in nice restaurants.
Of course, it's all relative. I don't tend to eat at $50/plate restaurants, even for anniversaries, and these places tend to not be child friendly.
But $20-25 a plate (for the entree)? Yep, I eat there occasionally, have taken my son to such restaurants (albeit only once or twice), and nursed him, discreetly. The only time I ever left the restaurant to do so was when we had outdoor seating and it was COLD! So I went to the car.
I'm not going to limit myself to chains, and I don't really have to here.
I too breastfed my son whenever he needed it; it can be done very discreetly in a booth & most people would be unaware of it. I agree about breastfeeding whenever & wherever is necessary (I too live in California). And, when my son was that age, he rejected the bottle for months; moreover, many women can't pump out enough milk in advance. Although I completely agree about ill-behaved children in restaurants (an entirely different issue) & was fortunate that my son was always well-behaved & easily distracted by quietly playing w/ trains, coloring or looking @ picture books, I find it interesting that no one talks about unruly, uncouth adults in fine dining establishments. I've been in several expensive, nice restaurants w/ tables close together & had to contend w/ drunken, loud expletive-filled conversations, often w/ explicit sexual descriptions. Far more offensive to me than most children I've encountered. And, as a parent w/ a child, I don't want my son to have to be accosted by this verbal pollution. I've never seen waiters, managers or anyone else ever ask these adults to lower their voices or watch their speech...
As a child my Father and Mother traveled and dined out a lot for business. Sometimes we were home with the babysitters, or went to more casual places as we lived in a small pretty casual town, but we dined out frequently at nice places and when we traveled we often ate at very nice places.
But we also grew up with a family that had very strict manners, especially at the dinner table. Spilling something on yourself was embarrassing, you knew what utensils to use, not to raise your voice, all the normal etiquette standards that a parent should teach their child. I loved eating out. My family were all fantastic cooks and I did not have a simple palette and really liked getting to eat out at nice places. I remember sharing tasting menus with my Dad.
Had I ever made a scene I would have been escorted out of that restaurant so fast that all people would have perhaps seen is a flicker and felt a rush of air from my Mother. I also would not have been taken out again until I understood how inappropriate my behavior was and that I had not only embarrassed myself, but my family at a nice place.
They also had the look, even if it wasn't something someone else would necessarily notice, if they noticed anything I should not be doing I either got the look, or was politely told that ladies did not do what I was doing. By the time I was 8 and my parents divorced I was expected to have all that stuff down, I then soon after had some step siblings who had not been raised that way. I felt bad for them and my Dad as I think they were all frustrated with each other. They still to this day remember and loathe that their mother and my father would say, "Look at kt she hasn't..."
Not to say I didn't often enjoy crayons and other things provided at casual places when I was a toddler, and when provided my parents didn't mind that sort of thing, but they felt that early on you could comprehend where you were and what behaviors you should use. I remember eating at Commander's Palace back in the day and other places like that. I was so excited at Commanders Palace because my Dad told me to get bananas foster and they made it tableside, that was so cool to me then. I just looked at my Dad with big eyes and a big smile. I was the kid who loved clams, oyster, escargot, blue cheese, etc, so that was a big trill I didn't give up.
I think it is all what you are taught and how you were raised. I was also raised to be able to occupy myself quietly if need be, it was just expected. I learned that as a toddler, if not before.
I agree it is all about knowing your child's limits, and setting good examples and expectations. All children are different and some are perfectly suited for dining almost anywhere and some are not. And some just need a little training at places better equipped to do so. I adore seeing well behaved children in restaurants. But if I am at even a casual place I expect good manners, not perfection or anything, but running around, screaming? that just isn't acceptable in restaurants. If I am at a place known to be kid friendly though it isn't as big of a deal, you go in knowing, and I normally just avoid!
make sure your server knows that you have no tolerance for screaming little children. and that you want to be seated in a area where there is no children. Has worked for me for many years.
Another thing that ticks me off about bad parents with naughty kids is that they never attempt to clean up the mess they've left behind. .
My daughter and I have been eating out at restaurants since she was 2 and have had only one incident when she was 5 and decided to find out what happens when you behave unacceptably. We had just ordered and she started acting out so we quietly paid for our meal in full tipped the server as if we had stayed for dessert and apologized to the server and the Manager. For the next six months when her Mother and I went out to eat she stayed with my Father. Now she loves her Grandfather but would have loved to have been going out with us. She understood that her actions had consequences and it never happened again. And for the last twelve years she has been a welcomed dinner companion for myself and my friends.So the next time you see a child acting out feel sorry for them because their parents don't care enough to teach them otherwise.
we have two little boys, 3 and 4 and we have worked very hard at teaching them how to behave in a restaurant as well as how to appreciate the delicious food they will get. We started by taking them out regularly to very casual dinners and have gradually picked up the level of dining. we are now perfectly comfortable taking them to almost anywhere although i'm pretty sure my 3 year old is not quite ready for daniel. they have however dined in many of the finest restaurants in nyc and we frequently receive compliments from other diners on how great they are. it is definitely the parents responsibility to deal with their children and teach them to behave. however we should all note that no one ever complains or asks the very rude, loud and drunk table to quiet down or remove themselves.
Cheflambo asks, regarding children helping themselves to product, where the staff are.
Well, you've gotten than answer from some- I had this happen to me also, when a child grabbed the KNIFE that was in my hand while I was it using to cut cheese for sampling- I scolded him and told him to NEVER grab a knife blade.
Redneck Mama complained to the store manager. Store manager, fortunately, laughed at her. And her 4 snot-nosed brats.
I don't know if it's just me, but i at least feel a little better when you see the parent actually dealing with the child instead of blatantly ignoring them. The ones ( and yes this has included close relatives ) who think of their children as free spirits deserving of their prance around the restaurant, are a different story. I'm sorry, but ear piercing shrieks hurt my ears, and being hit with flying objects whilst deep in conversation is also no fun ( a recent occurance, which came complete with parental smirking )
Yes everyone likes to chime in with the "I didn't get away with that when i was a kid"...but hey, I rarely if ever, remembered being taken out to eat when i was a child, I was not allowed to attend my parent's parties either. Due to cost i'm sure, as well as the fact that I was not an adult.
I'm not really sure a child really needs to experience a $20-plus entree...that's just me. Nor is that required in order to "learn" how to behave as an adult in restaurants..i know how to behave in a restaurant, and i never had these experiences. Thankfully i've also seen the "free spirits" of some parents, turn into very well behaved, well mannered adults, so maybe it all factors out.
I have to comment on the issue of breast-feeding. I don't think people's reaction is necessarily because breasts are considered "icky" here..........it's because breasts are private, for the most part, for a lot of people. I'm pretty sure i'd get booted out of a restaurant for popping one out, nor would my request to "well....don't look then" fly. Yes, it's natural to feed your child, i applaud it, i have no problem with anyone i know doing it right in front of me...it's also natural to be sexual, but no one allows that in restaurants out in the open now do they? Tables in restaurants are often VERY close...i'm just saying.
Thanks, Im nomad. Well put (on the breastfeeding issue). I know it is politically incorrect to (gently) object to this, but honestly, there is no discreet way to do it. And a hungry baby that young does not quietly request this feeding either. There is usually quite a bit of noise out of him/her before they finally get what they want, so this preamble calls attention to what is going on.
Just this past weekend I was in a restaurant where this took place. I was with my sister and her 12 year old son. The whole scene was played out only a few tables away from us, with the predictable questions and snickering from my pre-pubescent nephew. Later that day my sister and I discussed this with my mom, who nursed all of her children. She said she would never, under any circumstances, have done that in public, back then, or now, when it seems to be more "acceptable".
I dont know, Cheflambo, I think you could have done better to discuss the issue with your nephew and explain why snickering really isn't the appropriate response. I don't have children, so my understanding is second-hand, but if you nurse and baby won't accept a bottle, that pretty much means you're housebound for as long as you're nursing if you're not able to nurse outside of the home. Isn't it nicer to cut the new mom some slack rather than grumble about how your meal was disrupted?
Besides - a woman was feeding her child. (If I could italicize and bold that, I would!) What part of that scenario required comments and snickers from the peanut gallery?
Keslacye -- with all due respect -- if you DONT have children, you don't understand that even a generally well behaved child like my 12-year-old nephew is going to be, ahem, unduly interested in a bare breast in a public place, even if it is just a glance at a "natural" act. He was chastized for his comments, and yet, could not take his eyes off it. He had just never seen this before in a PUBLIC PLACE. He was not loud or crass, and just asked us quietly why she was doing that "in front of everybody". Of course the scenario does not require "comments and snickers from the peanut gallery" but in reality, that is what happens. Yes, a learning experience, but one that most parents would prefer to have somewhere other than a restaurant over lunch.
And you are correct -- >> if you nurse and baby won't accept a bottle, that pretty much means you're housebound for as long as you're nursing if you're not able to nurse outside of the home. << Im just saying that there are many more appropriate places to do this away from home, other than the middle of a busy lunch crowd at Denny's.
If it's a nice enough place that reservations are accepted (and necessary) and has a dress code (or at least is nice enough that you ought to know you should dress nicely even if they aren't going to force you to) you should leave the children at home. If you're paying $50+ per person (without drinks) you should leave the children at home. The only times it is acceptable to take children out is when you know that they are polite, well-behaved, and able to sit quietly and behave themselves during a meal or if it is a place that caters primarily to children.
If a child is making a scene and behaving poorly it is the responsibility of management to intervene before the customers have to say something about it. A simple warning that they need to control their children should be enough. If they fail to do so then they should be asked to leave. A child that gets up and start running around the place... well, it might depend on the restaurant, but I'd probably ask them to leave then and there.
In short if it's not acceptable for an adult to behave in a similar manner it is not acceptable for a child to behave in that manner. They should be dealt with in exactly the same fashion.
If it's a nice enough place that reservations are accepted (and necessary) and has a dress code (or at least is nice enough that you ought to know you should dress nicely even if they aren't going to force you to) you should leave the children at home. If you're paying $50+ per person (without drinks) you should leave the children at home. The only times it is acceptable to take children out is when you know that they are polite, well-behaved, and able to sit quietly and behave themselves during a meal or if it is a place that caters primarily to children.
Are there going to be exceptions to this? Yes, of course. I know that I was well-behaved as a child and was taken out to eat at many nicer places without problems. Of course, I didn't scream when I was bored or wasn't getting what I wanted. I didn't get up and run around. I presume that my parents knew that I was able to behave acceptably and thus they knew that it was ok to bring me to places that I would be able to handle. If you know that your child is well-behaved enough to sit still and quietly eat at an upscale restaurant where dinner might last 2 hours or more, by all means bring them... just be certain that you're right.
If a child is making a scene and behaving poorly it is the responsibility of management to intervene before the customers have to say something about it. A simple warning that they need to control their children should be enough. If they fail to do so then they should be asked to leave. A child that gets up and start running around the place... well, it might depend on the restaurant, but I'd probably ask them to leave then and there.
In short if it's not acceptable for an adult to behave in a similar manner it is not acceptable for a child to behave in that manner. They should be dealt with in exactly the same fashion.
This brings up the alternative point: there are many adults that are not acceptable to be allowed to dine out. Primarily people who can't keep their conversations to themselves. I don't care if you've been drinking. That's not an excuse, just a reason why you shouldn't be drinking if you can't do so without becoming a loud, obnoxious boor.
Regarding the breastfeeding in public--and in restaurants. It CAN be done discreetly. And this is speaking from experience. I've nursed in front of groups of people who accused me of starving my baby because they never saw me feed her! If it's done correctly, people simply think you are holding a sleeping baby.
I am one who thinks that boobs should not be flashed in public, and if you can't feed your baby without showing your stuff, then you need to practice in front of a mirror before going out in public. Forcing yourself onto people won't make them more accepting of your choices. Breasts are natural, sure, but I don't want to see other women's.
Also, comparing mothers who nurse in public to parents who let their children run wild is just stupid. Those are completely different issues.
People who don't have "hyper" children and don't breastfeed babies, shouldn't be too quick to judge. It is difficult to eat with one hand, control the older one and converse with the spouse. We do what we can to be respectful of other diners. It is not easy when there are no relatives nearby to look after the kids nor practical to hire babysitters everytime.
As with breastfeeding in public, it is possible to do it discreetly. There are plenty of ways to do it without flashing anyone. To deal with questions from a 12yr old, then it is up to the accompanying adult to explain quickly and move on. It is possible that the 12yr old picks up on the discomfort of the adults and make an issue out of that.
>>People who don't have "hyper" children and don't breastfeed babies, shouldn't be too quick to judge. It is difficult to eat with one hand, control the older one and converse with the spouse. We do what we can to be respectful of other diners. It is not easy when there are no relatives nearby to look after the kids nor practical to hire babysitters everytime. >>
Don't assume the people judging you don't have their own hyper children-- whom they've left at home to get away from all that.
Agreed with a previous poster-- breastfeeding and intractable children are completely different issues.
When many of our parents were dandling us as babes on their knees, some dining spots, shops and more had a ladies room that included a "lounge" or "powder room". Mirrors, comfy chairs and such This is now, sadly, limited to places such as old theaters and department stores.
If places had them, moms who insisted on bringing the baby to dinner could step out and feed in comfort there.
Y'know, when my sister and I were tiny, our parents took us to drive-in movies (in the family Volkswagen Squareback, with sleeping bags spread out in the back, so we could crash when we got cranky/sleepy). We went to Sizzler/Shakey's/other family-friendly restaurants, where Mom and Dad kept us in check/gave us quarters for the player piano/cleaned up around our table before the check came. When my sister and I were older and more capable of being appropriate to the venue, we went with our parents to indoor theaters/nicer restaurants.
The point is, we weren't expected to behave above our level of ability, and our parents didn't put us in a position where we would annoy other theater/restaurant patrons.
MOST IMPORTANT-- when in public, we were MONITORED; our parents didn't do that most-hateful thing of abrogating their parental responsibility simply because we were out in the world. I can't count the times I've confronted parents who have let their kids run and scream through stores/restaurants/etc., and have physically brought their toddlers back to them. They are invariably outraged that I am "questioning their parenting."
My answer? "You have a right to 'parent' however you want. But you DON'T have a right to wish your ill-parented children on the rest of the world. Curb your child or leave. Have a nice day."
When we had our first child (30 years ago!) and she was a baby/toddler we only took her to casual places. She was normally a very good child, but inevitably as soon as our food arrived, she would break into tears. She wasn't shrieking, but it made us uncomfortable, and if we were then others probably were, too. Simple fix: To go boxes, take girl to car while DH paid the tab. Luckily by the time she was about 2 1/2 - 3 she got over it, but it was frustrating.
After we had the second, and we would go out to eat we kept a very firm hand on them, but anticipated boredom beforehand. I had a bag with some non-noisy toys, crayons, paper, books, and a snack just in case the food took too long. If there was any acting up they got taken out to the car by one or the other of us, threatened with a severe punishment, calmed down and brought back in. It got to the point that all we had to do is say "Do we need to go to the car?" and they would settle down. Now our food may have gotten a bit cold, but I hate eating around brats, and will not let my kids get that rep!
I have an "evil eye" look that I use on other patrons children when they go to far. It usually works, and it is scary enough that they don't say anything to their parent. If the parent turns and looks at me, I smile very sweetly. I also do as Cheflambo, and if I can't figure out where the child is supposed to be, will step in and take the child back to their table, for "their safety." As in "poor baby almost got trampled/almost fell, etc."
The breastfeeding is fairly easy. If there isn't a comfy place to go inside the restaurant, you still have your car. I breastfed, and so did my daughter, but not in public, unless covered up in the car. The car works for diaper changes as well, if there isn't a changing station.
I feel sad for the folks who are so freaked out about public breastfeeding. To me it would be terrible to never be able travel to other countries or experience other cultures where breastfeeding is (and breasts in general are) a natural part of life. Kids who grow up in places like this (the majority of places in the world, the US is the aberration, I believe) don't think twice when they see someone breastfeeding and wouldn't see anything to snicker about.
Duct tape usually works well. :)
I remember taking a CPK-deprived friend to their outpost behind Bloomingdale's in NY one night, only to be seated in a booth near a round table of the Von Trapp kids on ritalin. They were torturing the wait staff and other customers, the parents didn't respond when the server asked them to reign their children in, and so my friend (a fellow former waiter) casually stuck his foot out the next time the kids made their run around the table. That worked.
I also recall being in Trader Joe's about six months ago with two kids terrorizing those of us making rush-hour purchases in cramped quarters. They smashed jars of marinara sauce, kicked an elderly woman, smashed into everyone in the aisles. When I saw their mother (who couldn't have been much older than me and I'm in my mid-20s), I said to her loudly she needed to keep a better eye on her kids. I think she would have killed me if five other people in our vicinity didn't pipe up and agree. It was really fun when she insisted none of us knew what it was like to have children, since some of the other shoppers had well-behaved kiddies in tow.
Well, THIS is certainly a very relevant post!!!
http://parentzing.wordpress.com
the post on upscale restaurants and kids
I agree with what's been said before about the breastfeeding... I have no problem with it, and I realise thats what youre doing, good for you.
That said, I do have a problem with seeing naked breasts in public. Theyre natural, yes, but theyre also sexual. Grabbing one constitutes sexual harassment/assault. So, I'm quite embarrassed to see someone else's sexual places naked, in public. It doesnt weird me out too much, because Ive seen a lot of relatives do it. But I can see, and agree with, the problem. Is covering up with jacket or napkin so hard?
(I'm genuinely curious- I've never breastfeed. How many hands do you need to hold the baby?)
And I wouldnt breastfeed in a toilet either, and be appalled at anyone who suggested it to someone I was with. You do not eat in a restroom, and shouldnt expect anyone else to, either.
And I wouldnt go back to a restaurant that did nothing about screaming children, nor a supermarket that let some grubby brat stick their dirty hands in the produce. Both businesses no doubt lose a lot from people like me, so it should be in their own interests to curb bad behaviour.
*"If I realise thats what youre doing..."
And I really am curious about the breastfeeding- I plan to be in this situation someday. How did you manage for people at your table not to notice?
Getting a babysitter is not only a matter of cost. There's also a unit in society known as a 'family'. To some, this is a large group including grans and in-laws, for us it's just my son and me. We like to be together. It's important for us to be together. We like good food. It's important for him to know good food (nearly 6 and can't stand french fries!) For babies, the best food in the world is mother's milk. I assume that every person registered on chow.com has some feeling that food is more than nutrition, that flavor matters, as does the chance to relax and enjoy what you're eating. Breastmilk is more than nutrition. Nursing is a connection between mother and child, and can help both relax and enjoy their environment more. I don't think anyone on this discussion is trying to say people should let their kids run wild, but well-behaved children, nursing or not, should be as welcome in nice restaurants as they are in any decent society.
as for breast-feeding discretely, there are a bunch of tricks one learns along the way, like sitting in a booth, on the end by the wall, wearing simple clothing that doesn't have to be unbuttoned, perhaps wearing the child in a sling.
And I can't stand the 'children's' section (usually informally dubbed) of restaurants for the reasons ogiovetti cites with the Van Trapps (before Maria!). Besides that, there are many disagreeable parenting methods that I don't want to have to deal with, or for my son to be exposed to, from hitting the kids, threatening to hit them, to video games that make weird noises and get the kids all jittery.
Seems to me there's plenty that restaurants can do if kids are a bit energetic--seat them in an out of the way booth, with whatever toys/coloring pages/etc you have, understand that none of us, when we were little, understood time in the same way we do now, and that waiting for a spoon or the check or whatever might seem so long that a kid becomes much more difficult than otherwise likely, and bringing everyone's food together. I never have understood why some places insist on bringing out kids' meals first. I suppose if you're dining in a big group the adults could eat in shifts, but doesn't it just make sense to have everyone chat together, then eat together, then take a moment to relax while the bill's dealt with? They should at least ask before carting out the kiddo's eats, or understand that if they free the babe up from eating just when the parent's food arrives, they are probably going to have a kid in need of entertainment on their hands.
I do mind when mothers breast-feed and public, but I never show it. Quite the opposite in fact, I usually just stare, not in a condensending, but more of a "I enjoy where this is going" type stare. You know, with a half smile and an occasional wink.
Usually the mothers would stop or hurry the process up, but sometimes I get comments from the mothers to stop and the such. My response is usually "Breast feeding is a beautiful and natural experience; however, if you feel ashamed or embarrassed, then you can just use the ladies restroom right over there. Don't worry, I won't follow you there" Then I give a friendly smile.
One time a nursing mother sicked her husband at me. Small little, pale white man, scared out of his wits it looks like. He came to me, stuttering "S-s-sir, I d-don't a-a-ap-ppreciate t-the way you are s-s-staring at my w-wife". I stood up from my chair calmly. With him being such a small guy, and myself such a big guy, I think I had almost a good two feet on the poor man. So, I calmly explained to him that I don't appreciate what is essentally public nudity. I then, as a gentleman, gave him a smile and the compliment "You're quite handsome by the way". He and his loved ones seemed to disappear immediately afterwards.
Anyway, when I'm dining with my boyfriend, the last thing I want to see is a little baby attached to some woman's bare-breast. Still, in all rights, mothers can and are allowed to nurse their young in public. However, if those mothers don't do the deed discreetly enough, I will be there to "enjoy the show".
Kids misbehaving in restaurants have been going on for years. I don't think it's a result of bad parenting, well actually it's part of it. But I'm pretty sure some of the people who posted here do have kids that misbehave in restaurants, so I guess that makes them hypocrites. And Diana the employees should at least give them their money back, people work hard to get money, and money is a precious thing, especially if it's something over $50. They shouldn't have their money wasted because their kids were misbehaving. If they don't get their service, they get their money back, don't have the mentality of an asshole. How would you feel if you bought something for $50 and you have gave them $80, but you were missing $15 in change. You would be pissed, you can use that $15 or other things. I hate it when employees are not aware of how much money people are spending, it's as if their stealing from their customers, and that's just wrong.
Well I have worked in many a restaurant and i have to say the cheaper the food the rowdier the kids. example i used to work at a 4 star wine bar and Italian place.. no kids at all ever .... now i work at Chuys tx-mex, where the parents that bring their kids in may think us akin to chuck e cheese , children literally running around near the kitchen entrance and could easily be stomped by servers , parents don't seem to care though they continue to allow their children to act like the place is a playground , bottom line though places like Chuys wouldn't even be in business if it wasn't for the hordes of bible thumping republican breeders coming in for free queso bar , chips and watered down margatitas to numb themselves from their caffeinated hyperactive hellspawn.
I have never been to a $20 a plate restuaraunt. However, I love chinese food, and chinese buffets are great. Although, if your child is uncontrollable, please stay away from buffets. I have been to buffets and have seen a few things I didnt quite agree with: a)Kids using their hands instead of tongs, b)kids picking their noses etc. and then touching things that will be touched by others. Thats just the things that stick out to me at buffets, but all the normal resturaunt conditions apply. Me and my family were recently at a nice resturaunt, and a woman had a screaming infant, and a three year old running around little snot even tried to trip a waitress) However, I took this time to have some fun (had a laser point in my pocket). The kid eventually sat down with his mom when he squished the fairy. When I was younger, if I was misbehaving, my dad would tell me to "come to the bathroom." That meant a spanking for me. But about the woman changing the baby's diaper on the table, that is unsanitary and I believe a lawsuit could have been filed if you ahd a good lawyer.
I find it ironic that no one admits to letting a child run around in a restaurant. Parents get tired, let the kid go to the bathroom alone, will let them wander a "few steps away" which is, of course, right where others are eating.
I was at a "kid friendly" restaurant where a kid who was running around knocked an older lady to the ground. While waiting for the ambulance to arrive, the lady asked the manager for the company information to give to her lawyer. While she was yelling about the lawsuit she was going to file, the family with the child got up and left, not even stopping to apologize to the lady on the floor.
I'm in Northern California and the snooty wine people think their children are perfect and simply expressing themselves. If you ask them to get their kids under control, they will often make it worse by telling the kid to ask you what your problem is. It's happened to me twice. There are NO restaurants, stores, movie theaters or such places where it is appropriate to let your kid run around. If they can't behave, keep them at home until they can.
My son is now in college, but we have been taking him to restaurants with us since he was very young. Early on, we went to "family" places or our local Chinese restaurant where they knew us. However, if he started to cry or fuss, one of us got up and took him away from the dining room to calm him down. By the time he was 4 he knew how to behave in restaurants and was well known to the staff at quite a few, including some very fancy restaurants here in DC. He know that if he misbehaved, we would take him out. The only time it was ever a problem was when he was 6 and I told him he couldn't order a whole lobster. He started to argue, and quickly found out that the argument was going to take place in the parking lot, because that is where I hauled him darn quick.
I have to admit that I smiled when I read ogiovetti's story of how his friend handled the running children by sticking out a foot. I will admit that I have also indulged in this type of behavior upon seeing that speaking to the parents has no effect. I have also taken the child back to their parents and commented to the parents on how easily I could have been a psyco/pervert who took their child's hand and led them out of the resturant. I find that this tactic usually prevents any confrontation from the parrents.
Somewhere on this someone said they talk to the parents but blame it on the other patrons so they don't take the heat.
I like that idea but unfortunately we had someones child run up and down the isles then they keep comming to our booth standing just talking away to us we tolerated it patiently knowing the parents were idiots.
when our food came we asked the kiddie to go back to her table she just ran all over the place. I was amazed no one did anything until a waiter with a tray was almost knocked down. Suddenly a young woman came to our table and told me I need to get control of my kid. I just looked at her and said " I would love to but she's not mine". she went away speechless.
I was not mad at her for this and it was easy to see why she thought this the couple who were her parents did not even claim her.
i for one think that kids should be taught to be good while in a restaurant, but there are certain times where a kid who is screaming his head off is not because he is a little monster. my son can go to any restaurant and be a great little kid until he starts to get hungry then he starts to get mad, and throw a fit, and there is not a lot that can be done for that - you see my son is autistic, and he does not understand the concept of it takes time to make food. now i do not go to nicer restaurants but there are places like village inn where we will go for food, and if anyone ever says anything about his screaming like a spoiled brat i tell them he is autistic and to go away ( i am being nice here my normal words are more grown up and would make most sailors blush ).
now as for the kids who are given free range at any resturant and are running amok - yes the managers should step in, but i do beleave that the parents should do something too, i never let my son out of the booth nor would i if he was not autistic.
while the idea that a parent should just get a babysitter for their kids may be easy for some people, i for one can not there are none in my area who are trained to deal with my sons needs.
It is so nice to know that I am not the only one who is bothered by misbehaving kids. I have even had people tell me that I need to learn to tune it out. That I should expect there to be bad kids. That I just let too much bother me.
Now that I read this thread, I realize that I'm the one who is normal! Yay! I have noticed many of the posters to this thread have resolved to accept that, if they don't have kids themselves, then they might not be entitled to as much of an opinion as the rest of us. I can say that, my opinion has not changed whatsoever, from the pre-kid and post-kid eras of my life. I still believe that parents should control their children and teach them to be considerate of the other patrons.
I have been taking my now college-aged son to nice restaurants since the day he was born. Even though he was always an active, and talkative boy, he could literally sit quietly in a restaurant for over two hours with NO problem. We often had people approach us with saucer-eyes, simply amazed at how good our son was.
How did I do it? It isn't rocket science. About 20 minutes before leaving for the restaurant, I would give Steven a small meal. Something bigger than a snack and smaller than a meal. While giving him the food, we would chat about the evening ahead of us. He never liked surprises, so I would tell him exactly what to expect for the evening, as well as what could unexpectedly happen. He'd take it all in, while slurping down his large snack. I don't recall telling him "how to behave". I'd more say things like, there would be candles and that people would be talking in a "salon whisper"... people would wear fancy clothes, etc. He found all of that somewhat fascinating. After all that, I'd ask him to pick out some things to take to the restaurant to read or "play with". Sometimes he'd select something noisy and I'd need to help him come up with something more appropriate. But, in general, we'd arrive at the restaurant with a happy, satisfied kid with a good attitude... ready to have a good time... along with a briefcase full of various books and small toys for entertainment.
One important thing people don't seem to get, is that kids have a really good sense of smell. It isn't reasonable to bring a kid into a restaurant, and expect them to be able to wait as long as you, to receive food. That's where zip-locks full of cereal, crackers, nuts, or cold-cuts, come in. I never entered a sit-down food establishment without some kind of goodies in my purse, to give Steven some way to quell his salivating mouth, while waiting for our order.
Gotta comment about the "no kid" policy of restaurants. Before taking Steven into L'Orangerie, I simply called ahead. I explained that I would be bringing a well-behaved "x"-year-old to celebrate the event, and that I would guarantee his behavior. Never a problem. In fact the French Matre 'D gladly catered to him and he became somewhat of a rock-star because he was so good.
Out of the mouths of babes, is particularly classic. I remember one time we were in an upscale casual restaurant. As usual, Steven was practically invisible, while some other kid his age was just being ridiculous: screeching, running amok, crawling on the floor, grabbing, etc. The family was at the next table. During a lull in the clamor and out of the unexpected momentary silence, I hear Steven's "manly" voice say, "Mom,..." I answered, "Yes, Noonie..." (my nick-name for Steven). "That kid is bad. He needs to be spanked!" Earlier in this thread, a poster said that the adults won't speak harshly to a kid who observes another kid's criticism of bad behavior. Wrong. The outraged parent turned to Steven (who was barely 2-years-old at the time), and shouted at him, "So, you don't appreciate our son's behavior!?" Wide-eyes, he looked at me in terror. His dilemma: I could answer and appear rude, or I could not answer and appear rude. Steven was always taught to be responsive to adults. So, I said, "It's OK, Stevie. Go ahead and answer the question." He answered, "No, I don't. He's loud and rude." (Steven spoke in sentences from the time he was 18 months old.) Their response, "So, I suppose your parents hit you!?" Steven, "No, they don't hit me. They might spank me." The parents were so frustrated by that reply, they picked up in a huff and left. They could not fathom that there is a difference in "hit" and "spank". But, my 2-year-old seemed to have a clear understanding of the difference in the two.
Indeed, toddlers can have conversations, and can understand very subtle differences in discipline styles. They also fully understand the difference in discipline and abuse. Parents who refuse to control the behavior of their kids do so because they are lazy... plain and simple. They need to give their kids credit. They know the score better than anybody realizes. All parents need to do is to tell them what to expect and how everybody there (including them) will act.
Oh, and to all you parents who are afraid that discipline might rob your kid of personality? Steven is now an animation artist and pilot. He has the creativity to develop imaginary characters, but also the discipline to be pilot-in-command of an aircraft. Those parents who refuse to discipline... good luck with your kid even being able to operate a fork lift. Sigh.
-e