Table Manners
Kids Gone Wild
How should restaurants handle misbehaving children?
Dear Helena,
I am a server in an Italian restaurant. It’s not superfancy, but it’s a nice place. Recently a couple came in with two kids, aged around two and five. The younger kid sat in his high chair screaming incessantly and flinging couscous across the table. The other one roamed round the restaurant, tearing open sugar packets and emptying them onto the floor, and even knocking over a chair at one point. I felt bad for the other customers. But I was scared to ask the parents to control their kids in case they bit my head off. When kids run wild, when should the restaurant intervene, and what’s the best way to go about it? —Flustered Server
Dear Flustered Server,
How kids should behave in restaurants is a contentious issue on the Chowhound message boards. No parent likes to hear anyone tell him his children are misbehaving. But the fact is many children find restaurants pretty boring, and they’re likely to amuse themselves by shredding napkins, mashing food, or using french fries dipped in ketchup as paintbrushes.
On the restaurant’s end, it helps to be smart about where folks with kids are seated. Larry Bouchard, general manager of One Market Restaurant in San Francisco, says, “For the most part … we put families [with young children] in large Pullman booths so they’re contained, as opposed to being on open floor where messes are a little more noticeable.” This way, if the tots do get spaghetti in their hair or use the condiments to make Jackson Pollock–like splatters on their clothes, the only patrons who are bothered are Mom and Dad.
But if a kid drags those french fries along the divider between your booth and his, getting ketchup in your hair, you should feel comfortable asking the server to do something about it, and the server should entrust this sensitive task to someone in management. The same is true if the kids are making too much noise—for instance, screaming, crying, or running their fingers around the wetted rims of wineglasses to make a piercing sound. Of course, adult patrons make plenty of noise too, but arguably it’s more painful to listen to a screeching toddler than to grown-ups’ tipsy conversation.
Maite Montenegro, maître d’ at Daniel in New York, says she’d blame the intervention on the other customers. “I’d tell them somebody has complained their kid is a little bit loud.” But, in my view, that’s unnecessary: The family may spend the rest of the meal wondering which of their fellow diners ratted them out.
It’s more helpful, says Hope Timberlake, a public relations consultant in Mill Valley, California, and mother of two children aged three and six, if the restaurant management has a concrete suggestion, “like offering crayons or a more private table or even asking you to step outside.”
A restaurant can also take measures to make sure only well-behaved future gourmands show up. At Daniel, says Montenegro, if a diner mentions bringing kids at the time of the reservation, he or she will be warned that “dinner lasts three hours.”
Table Manners appears every Wednesday. Have a Table Manners question? Email Helena.
"But I was scared to ask the parents to control their kids in case they bit my head off"
I can not speak for the server, but the manager should be scared that all of the other customers will simply not come back.
"No parent likes to hear anyone tell him his children are misbehaving." To them, I say, "TOUGH!"
The only time I was ever spanked was after I behaved poorly at a casual restaurant. Management should feel comfortable telling customers, "You need to control your child or we'll have to ask you to leave."
Indeed, this is a hot button issue here. I like the notion of strategically seating these potential troublemakers in booths where they can be contained. Any server who finds themselves in a position of having to "say something" to parents about their little darlings definitely puts the gratuity at risk. Management should have the courage to get involved as needed, but many don't.
Some children are ready to eat in nice restaurants as young as 4 or 5. Others can't handle sitting still until they reach 10 or older. There are many, many child-appropriate places they can be taken where they can LEARN their restaurant manners. But parents who allow their spawn to ruin other people's dining experiences are as rude as their children.
Speaking of courage, I, for one, do not hesitate to caution an errant child about their behavior. A couple of years ago there was a 4-year old literally running past my table at a restaurant. After several laps past my chair, and a near-collision with a server carrying a tray of food, I resisted the urge to "accidentally" stick my foot out and trip him, but I did wave him down and he stopped next to me. "Where's your mommy?" I asked. "Over there" he said, waving in some distant direction. "Well, let's go find her" I said, and I got up, took his sticky little hand, and we walked back to where his family was sitting.
Their table was a shambles -- food all over, and another little monster-in-training was securely strapped into a highchair, being fed by a very harried woman whose husband looked like he was trying to pretend the whole thing wasn't happening. "Is this your child?" I asked cheerfully. "Oh yes" she said. "He was about to turn over a tray of food at the other end of the restaurant' I said.. The look on her face was priceless.
One of the most popular restaurants in this area, did not allow kids. I think the business they lost not allowing kids, was made up by people knowing that when they came in to dine, it would be a pleasant experience. I know I get uneasy seeing kids at the next table, just thinking that they might start screaming.
And as far as the kid in the next booth dragging his ketchup laden french fry through my hair...well, I would not call the waitress to straighten things out.
jim Peterson
jimpeterson ... I am curious ....(and not being facetious) -- just how did this restaurant not allow kids? Was there a sign on the door? A stern hostess? A line painted on the front that indicated "you must be this tall to eat here"? A notation in the advertisements? Just knowing that such a rule existed and was enforced would DEFINITELY draw me to a place like that.
Im just waiting for the string of protests here from parents who will whine "but you don't understand! We want to eat out in nice places even though we have kids!" Well, allow me to introduce the concept of BABYSITTERS. Nice young/old ladies who come to your house and, for an hourly fee, allow you to leave the precious darlings in capable care while YOU enjoy a quiet, calm and delicious meal at the restaurant of your choice.
Cheflambo, my I asked my sister to take me to a moderate to upscale restaurant for my birthday this year. Being that she has a three year old, I told her to ask when she called for reservations if they allowed children. She said that they didn't. I told her that I didn't want her to pay a babysitter, too, so we went somewhere else. She wasn't mad about it or anything. She would still go there when she didn't have her daughter, so I don't know if it is necessarily a deterrant to have a no children policy.
My point is, I guess I just assumed that there are some places where children just wouldn't be welcome and although they didn't have any signs or anything of the sort, that was their policy. I just believe that there some times that it is not appropriate to take children to a particular restaurant out of respect for the other patrons.
>> I just believe that there some times that it is not appropriate to take children to a particular restaurant out of respect for the other patrons. <<
That's IT, Carrie. If only more parents felt this way.
If a child is mentioned during the reservation process, THAT is the time to say, politely, no kids. But Im sure just as often, the subject doesn't come up, and if the restaurant has that policy, it should be mentioned during EVERY reservation conversation.
But as we both know, youngsters of a certain age WILL show up and be seated in even the nicest places. A great majority of them do know at least some restaurant manners and understand "THE LOOK" from mom or dad to quell any potential outbursts. That's why we never notice them. Its the "oh let him run, Im tired of dealing with him" parents that get all our attention, and their own thread here.
For the poster who wrote they were "fearful" of dining out when there are children at a nearby table. Be careful dear, those snotty nosed sticky handed hooligans can smell fear muah ha ha! Oh puuuhlease not every child is a hooligan ;)
But seriously, I do take my kids out to dinner on occasion. I take care to make sure before we even set foot in the car to go out that they're well rested, not sick, not whiney/teething... I also sit them down and explain what's expected of them when we get there...no, the two year old doesn't fully get it but he's not usually the one I have to worry about oddly enough.and I make sure we're armed with our own colouring books, quiet toys and the like and we go early in the evening so the resto is at it's least busy and we can get a table son after arrival. I know their limits though and fully understand the "concept of babysitters" thank you very much and leave the kids at home when the dinner is anywhere the words amuse bouche are used.
sorry...I see now it was "uneasy" not fearful... still... lol.
You know, if a kid misbehaves and causes disrruption and they are 0 to 6 or so, it isn't their fault. It's the fault of the parents who did not properly raise their kids, or miscalculated in a good place to bring the anklebiters.
Still, there should be solace for the other paying diners. I hate eating next to a brat with permissive or lazy parents. If the kid is being a pain in the ass, the establishment should, and does have the right to refuse service, and kick the who lot out, and still charge for what they crammed down whilst junior was screaming his head off and cartwheeling past the tables.
Fine dining should not involve anyone under the age of 10 who can't behave, and very few can, cause they just ain't got the attention span. Get a sitter. If you can't find one, ask for pick up or take out, set the home table up nice, and use the opportunity to teach the kiddies manners in fine dining at home.
I love a parent who expects and demands good behavior from the kids, and one who is ready to prepare for it ahead of time, and find a quick resolution should things fall apart!
Diana, I don't think anyone is disputing that it is the parents fault. That is where I have the beef...the parents. If they are like maplesugar, more power to ya. That's not where the problem is.
My thought is that I just really couldn't fathom taking a kid to a fine dining place in the first place. That's why the first thought that popped into my head was, hey, is my niece even allowed? I can see taking your kids to other types of restaurants to help teach them table manners, etc. But, at a white linen place where people are paying for an upscale or romantic environment? What's the point? Just because you can?
The bottom line is that the same people who's kids are so oblivious to their kids running around being hooligans are hardly going to have the conscience of mind to care about anyone else in the first place. Gee, junior, isn't this foie gras just delicious!?!
Kudos to those restaurants which say in advance, "no kids allowed", kudos to those restaurants which step in when the behavior of children gets out of hand and kudos to those restaurants which provide coloring pages and other sources of amusement.
I speak from experience. When I was about five or six years in age, I had to wait for what seemed hours with my elders and became very bored. Had I brought along a book to read, such as Seven Little Postmen or Smokey The Bear, that might not have been good manners, but it would have beat spilling my milk (as I did at an old Lum's hot dog place). I'm glad that many restaurants take kids into consideration nowadays; in fact there are some restaurants which have special nights for kids with entertainers who make animal balloons, perform magic tricks and more.
I witnessed the following in a nice, UES restaurant last week, a set of parents (with grandparents) brought their two children and were seated in the middle of the restaurant.The older child, about 3, had just learned to shriek, and happily let out shrieks about every five minutes, piercing the quiet of the restaurant. The infant, perhaps provoked, began to cry, and the mother picked up the baby, opened her blouse and breast fed it in the restaurant.
Halfway through, her husband draped a raincoat over her so that breast and baby were shielded from the stares that other diners were throwing at the table. There was no effort by the server, manager or the grandparents to calm the shrieking child and/or ask the mother to walk about six steps to the ladies' room, where she could have fed her child in private. Instead, the table just chatted away as if the feeding and shrieks were not happening.
I didn't want to veer into the "nursing zone" here ... but thanks, Brenda. I had thought about this too. Oy vey ... and on the UES. I am LOL.
These people are in their own little world. That it spills out into our faces doesnt seem to concern them. Management SHOULD step in at this point. There are SO many other ways to deal with a baby that you KNOW is going to be hungry at some point during your oh-so-public evening. The shrieking child? Mom doesn't hear it - she tuned it out so that she could enjoy her meal.
Having worked in the restaurant for more than a decade, I agree that management should be the one to intervene and they should intervene after a second small outburst or if the children are bothering servers and other guests.
BTW many states have laws that allow breast feeding in public and if you live in such a state, there can obviously be no expectation of the mother feeding in the bathroom (which seems like a bad idea to begin with....)
As far as I'm concerned, if the parents can afford to dine at Daniel, they can and should pay for a sitter!
A child who is shrieking or running amok is one thing; management (not the waitstaff or other customers) should take care of it in that case. A nursing mother is another thing entirely; it's not disruptive, and you don't have to look. What's the big deal?
Healthy children are quite simple and straight foreward in their tastes. They enjoy simple food, familiar tastes, and most of them have a restricted repertory of food they really enjoy. Healthy children enjoy eating but, after they finish their food they will want to do something also. Their developing brains aren't still ready to concentrate for too long, and their growing bodies are not ready to sit still for a long time. In a child, everything is about learning, exploring and making new discoveries. The decision of becoming a parent means dedicating part of your life to this small, developing person, so you'll have to make plenty of sacrifices.
You don't own you children. Most of times when you see a kid messing around in a restautrant is because the parents aren't really caring for them. They're tortured kids, being subjected to their parents selfish desires. A loving parent tries hardly to understand how a child feels in every situation, and not to expose their kids to situations with wich they aren't able to cope.Children need limits, but in a measure they cn learn with it. Otherwise, it is cruelty. There are so many kid friendly restaurants, with lots of food children love, activities, playgrounds, other families, ecc. And if you must go to a fancy place where your child won't be able to be a child, hire a sitter or stay home.
And yes, i think the staff should intervene. Sometimes i do, when kids are misbehaving in elevators, malls, shops, public transportation, ecc. They're persons, they live in society and must learn to respect others. If theyr parents don't teach them, it's our duty to do it.
Unless you're eating at a restaurant that caters to children, I think you really need to be respectful of the other patrons that may be trying to get away from their own children for the night. Even if it's just Olive Garden, this may be a very special night for the couple. Maybe they saved up all month for the evening. Regardless, everyone deserves to have a nice peaceful meal.
Azizeh, you bring up a good point. Yesterday, I was at a "family-friendly" restaurant when the toddler at the table next to us started banging her plate oh, every 5 mins. or so. People were giving the table dirty looks, but nothing was done. This was also around 9am, so it was particularly jarring. I let it go b/c I figured it was a place where families commonly dine, but maybe I should expect more.
Personally, I did not bring my children to any restaurants except for the local diner until they were about 6-7. And even then, it was mostly chains. I definitely did not bring them to places where patrons spend a decent amount of money and were most likely looking forward to a relaxing dining experience sans screaming, whining kids. Some people I know think that you should start taking your kids out to such establishments to "socialize" them, but I think that's ridiculous. I would not have wanted to spring my kids to the unsuspecting public all in the name of a social experiment! Manners begin at home, and that's where my kids learned.
Also, when I walk into a fine restaurant or am checking in for a flight or anywhere where I will be in a confined environment for at least a couple of hours, and I see kids of a certain age group, I wince and cross my fingers that I don't have to sit near them.
I don't care if it's the local diner or a five star restaurant - it is absolutely inexcusable that a parent would allow their children to misbehave to the extent that they are disturbing other diners.
I don't understand how there can even be a debate on this topic.
Speaking of kids and manners, I was at WF last wekend, and saw two little kids stuffing themselves from the bulk bins whilt daddy looked on. Daddy finally stepped away, but one little snotty princess (and she was oozing snot, by the way) came back to reach in and grab another gobfull. I said "Oh no, no, honey, that's not right!" She looked stupidly at me, and moved away (she was just beyond toddler, maybe 4 or 5).
Daddy came up and said "It's not up to you to tell my children how to behave"
I responded "I'm sorry, but it's not hygenic or fair for them to be reaching into the bins to grab food and then eating it unpaid for".
Other shoppers were watching, and SuperDad backed off.
I get the feeling Mr. Permissive had sorta taught his brats how to grab, cram, and steal.
When they grow up and he has issues with bad behavior, then he'll blame the schools for "not teaching my kids right".
We have an 18-month-old, so we're pretty sensitive about this issue when we take him out to a restaurant, which we've done since he was born, so it's a fairly familiar situation to him, and he's generally pretty well behaved. He likes to sit at the table with mommy and daddy and friends, and is interested in trying the foods we like. He makes a bit of a mess, of course, but we try to keep it all pretty contained. For instance he might do things like grab food off our plates, which we take as a positive sign that he likes the food, but we keep him well supplied on his plate once we've figured out what he's in the mood for at that moment, so he's not as inclined to poach, and he's starting to get the hang of using utensils. He doesn't run around the restaurant or scream, because he's figured out, even at eighteen months, that that's just not what one does, and he likes being at the table with us.
We generally try to make sure he's well rested before we go out, and that usually keeps things under control, but if he gets antsy and it's clear that he's losing patience, then we ask to have the leftovers wrapped up and go home. Aside from the issue of disturbing other diners, there's no use making him sit through something he doesn't want to do at that age.
I have seen this happen too. Central Market here in Houston has an olive/condiment bar, and two children, ages about 8 and 10, (old enough to know better) were helping themselves to the olives, and then dropping the pits on the floor. (I am NOT making this up). When they got in my way as I tried to package up my selections, I said (as patiently as I could) "Girls, its not a snack bar." The older one shot me a nasty look. "Where are your parents?" I asked. Blank stare. "Did you know that the store will charge you for what you ate?" The younger (and wiser) one tugged at her sister's sleeve and said "lets go look at the lobsters".
During the same shopping trip I watched a 10-year-old boy help himself to large handfulls of pistachios from an open bin. Do I even need to tell you where the shells were going? When I asked him how he was going to pay for what he ate, he said "dad said its OK".
What puzzles me about all these incidents (and obviously many people witness this) is that no one in authority (salespeople in the stores, managers in restaurants) seems to have the courage to confront these parents about this. Apparently these places would rather lose ME as a customer, than someone who decided to bring their children along to "help" them shop.
I worked at a restaurant that, while it did not prohibit children, also did nothing to encourage their presence. There were no highchairs, no crayons, and no paper menus. There was, however, a childrens menu consisting of a couple of pastas without meat, and chicken fingers and fries, with each entree at $14.00. We had very few problems with children.
I will never forget the time my friend and I went to a small restaurant with his one year old daughter. This kid was used to restaurants, having accompanied her parents eating out at least once a week since she herself was all of 7 days old, but I digress. Anyway, after her dad put her in the restaurant high chair she let out a screech the likes I've never heard before, and didn't stop. I was horrified, not only wondering what the heck was wrong with her, but I also knew the disturbance she was causing. Can you imagine?
Upon further investigation as to what was causing this screaming fit, I quickly realized the top of the high chair was pinching her and hurting her. As soon as I released the top, peace prevailed and she returned to her previously happy mood. Thank God, because I was really looking forward to their homemade Italian food and no way would we have stayed if she'd continued.
Not having high chairs will definitely keep parties with small children away. We've had experiences in some neighborhoods of going from one restaurant to the next looking for a place with a high chair.
Another issue though is high chairs in poor repair. The most common problem we see is with the stacking wooden high chairs that have a nylon strap with a Fastex buckle. The buckle breaks eventually and is never replaced, so the strap is useless. Aside from the fact that these chairs are probably exposing the restaurant owners to liability, it makes it a lot harder to deal with a toddler in a restaurant when they're tempted to squirm out of a high chair or stand up in the chair instead of maintaining attention to the meal.
Also some waiters are better than others at serving to a table with a small child. The basic rule is: don't put anything within the child's reach, if you don't want them to handle it, like hot food, hot soup, sharp utensils, water glasses, and stemware. To facilitate this, it's a good idea to seat a family with a small child at a larger table, so they can keep things at a safe distance and also, because they're probably carrying extra things like a changing bag and such. If the parents can be relaxed, the child will be more relaxed, and everything goes more smoothly.
Kudos to you, David A. Goldfarb, for your prudent observations of kids in restaurants.
I've been waiting tables in two chain restaurants for the past few years and it's always interesting to see how parents control their kids. My favorite tables are the ones that don't let the kids play with the sugar caddies or the salt and pepper and assist me in placing the plates and drinks far away from the reaches of little ones (especially in booths with high chairs placed at the end. Always tricky).
My least favorite tables are the ones oblivious to the smashed saltines, broken crayons, and desecrated sugar caddies. I even had a table who, in the middle of a very busy lunch service at the height of the restaurant's Christmas rush, changed her daughter's diaper on the table. Her father and his friend were worse than nonplussed; they encouraged her to do it. The horror. I ran to get my manager and when she confronted the lady with the obvious health implications of confusing a dinner table with a changing table, was yelled at by the woman. The woman then demanded that Elena comp her meal because of the "stress" Elena was putting her through.
Elena, always a tough cookie, didn't comp the meal. The check was a little over $100. I got $5. You heard that right.
I think it's such a wrong to do to a child not to teach them how to behave in public and then insist on it. I have a son and a daughter and by five they were so proficient at ordering and protocol that I still get a laugh today when remembering my son's first time to order all by himself and telling the waiter 'I'll have the whatever to start.' He was like five. The point is that if they want to be with adults enjoying adult experiences why on earth wouldn't they be told that their behavior is a big part of that? I never wanted anyone to say 'Oh god, she's bringing her kids.' That's not fair to the child. To let them be disliked because I didn't tell them what was expected.
My daughter is now in my position with a 3 year old of her own and I'm afraid that he can be quite 'independent' shall we say when in public or anywhere else for that matter. Times are just very different but I still place the responsibility on the parents to insist that the child behave properly. And don't get me wrong; I'm not some stick in the mud proper type. Quite the opposite. I just think it's so great all the way around to have children that are a pleasure to be around and mine were. They're on their own training theirs I'm afraid. But do it or don't take them to restaurants.
I don't have any children, but my best friend has two girls who might as well be my nieces. Now four and seven, they didn't visit restaurants until they could sit through an entire meal at home without wiggling, whining, or getting messy. The younger girl still has trouble sometimes, but my friend is perfectly comfortable bringing her older daughter, Elizabeth, anywhere, and her behavior is always wonderful.
Actually, last year I met her Elizabeth at a restaurant somewhere. There was a brat running around, screaming, crying, throwing things, getting in the way of servers with trays of hot food, you name it. In a moment when the restaurant was quiet, Elizabeth asked my friend, "Mommy, why is that boy being so bad? He should get a time out!" The mother of the misbehaving kid heard, and was actually shamed into controlling her son for the rest of the meal. It was awesome.
Amazing, isn't it? If an adult had said something about the wildchild, there might have been a confrontation. But when another CHILD speaks up, the parent listens. Go figure.....
There's a 9 y/o boy who comes (reluctantly) to my saturday "family" yoga class. His mother has been dragging him there for several years (Ive learned) and he has yet to understand why he's there. While we concentrate on our breathing and our poses, this kid flops around, talks, climbs on his mom or dad, and generally does his best to disrupt the class. The instructor has even been known to cut the class short because "Daniel" cant get it together.
One day a little girl of 5 or so was in class, watching the usual performance, and she finally said "Tsk ... what a brat!" loud enough for EVERYONE to hear. Well, everyone except Daniel's parents, who still refuse to see or hear what he's doing.
Well... i have to take issue with the, um, issue of breastfeeding in public. Would you want to eat in the ladies room? Didn't think so. To expect a nursing mother who is discreetly nursing to go into a public restroom to nurse her infant is slightly ridiculous. And gross. It's perfectly natural and ok for a mom to nurse her kid in public. That's how it eats, folks.
However, I do think that it is ok to expect parents to control their children in a public place. I own a small bakery/cafe that's pretty family-friendly, plus I have children of my own, but it still bugs when the littles run all over the place screaming and potentially tripping folks, or lie down and have a giant tantrum and the parent just sits there staring off into space and smiling or gossiping with their friends. When our kids were young (they're 10 and 11 now and great in restraunts) if they started acting up, we'd pack them up and go, no questions asked. There's nothing wrong with an expectation of responsible parenting when other people are being affected.
>>What puzzles me about all these incidents (and obviously many people witness this) is that no one in authority (salespeople in the stores, managers in restaurants) seems to have the courage to confront these parents about this. Apparently these places would rather lose ME as a customer, than someone who decided to bring their children along to "help" them shop. >>
They have probably learned from experience that even the most tactful request to modulate a kid's behavior can often be met with a screaming fit from the parent. The worse the kid's behavior, the more the parent is apt to feel that his/her parenting skills are being attacked and react in an over-the top-way. After a while you decide it's better to just jolly those people along and get rid of them with as little disturbance as possible.
Oh, and if you're a salesperson in a store (or otherwise on the front lines) you can probably get written up for having an altercation with a customer even if you never raise your voice while they are yelling their heads off. Sucks, but bad diners/customers/whatevers often get what they want in this way, and they have no incentive to stop it.
Cheflambo, the servers and store clerks probably do want to say something, they're just fearful of their job.
I work at a restaurant that is part of an upscale, small (50 restaurants) chain. It is owned by one man, but has a corporate nature. We're very focused on our guests and if they sent in a letter saying that their server was rude to them and their children, heads would roll. Sometimes a general/regional manager wants to set an example and doesn't bother to vouch for the employee they've had for years. They just decide that it's not reasonable to keep an employee that may have been rude to a paying customer. Of course it's not right, but that may explain why everything is left to the frazzled managers to do.
Oh I fully appreciate the risk one takes when the job entails dealing with this situation. But my statement was aimed more at the managers and the people who DO have the authority to tell some lady (regardless of how much she just spent on her meal) that you do NOT CHANGE A BABY DIAPER ON A DINING TABLE. (And kudos to the one above who did!) I realize that for the server to gently suggest "you might find the changing table in the ladie's room a bit easier" puts her gratuity in jeopardy, but a Manager who tells the customer that what she is doing is a hygeine risk to others is just doing their job.
This is why I feel no hesitation at all in speaking to the offending children in the situations upthread here. I dont have anything to lose. Its not my store, so technically its not my "place", but as a consumer who doesn't want to draw my food from the same bin that a sniveling rugrat has repeated stuck his hand in, I don't mind speaking up. If a parent wants to chew ME out because I've pointed out the flaws in their parenting, hey Im tough - I can take it. Because I know I'm right (and the store would agree).
As you've probably already deduced, I am NOT a parent. Many of my friends are, and one in particular used to really get my goat by bringing her child to our aerobics class (she was the instructor). When the baby was small and just sat in a chair, it was OK. As she got older, she would toddle around the room get into her mom's purse and pull things out, start to explore OUR purses, etc. In the year or so when this was really becoming a problem, I never once hear the mother say "NO" to this child. Her mother gave up trying to pass the child on to her dad for the hour or so that we worked out, because the little princess made such a fuss, and dad "couldnt deal with it":
Did I say anything? No. Why not? Well, its not because the mom was a lawyer (who should have known enough to recognize the liability of the situation!). But I knew that it was only for an hour, a couple of times a week, and having the LP there meant the difference between whether or not the class started on time. Also we had been friends for a long time, and I knew that since I was not a parent myself, anything resembling criticism would be met with deaf ears. I did (and still do) value our friendship, and the Little Princess is now 8 years old, and has the nicest manners I've ever seen on a child. They can take her anywhere.
And now let me pose this question to the servers who are reading this post -- have you ever had occasion where your gratuity was actually BOOSTED by the guilty feelings of parents whose chlidren were loud, messy or rude? (It CAN happen!) I'd like to hear those stories too.
I'm surprised at the response this thread has had. I guess someone could be on either side depending whether or not you had children. I don't have them, and I don't like to be around them, especially when I'm trying to enjoy a good meal....But....I've spent 1/3 of my young life living in Mexico. I've eaten in restaurants that were tar-paper shacks, 100 miles from the nearest hard road, to the best Mexico has to offer, and I don't believe I've ever seen a family member correct their kid in a restaurant. They just let them run wild. So, at least things aren't quite that bad here.
Oh...a note to Chefambo...the restaurant that I used to frequent that didn't allow children, was the old Wally's Hot Springs, in Genoa, Nevada. There was no sign telling people that they couldn't bring their kids, or any notice of any kind. When you showed up with kids, you were told they weren't allowed. There also wasn't a sign of any kind telling you that it was a restaurant, or any advertising either. The place was out in the country, and you just had to look for it.
We were lucky. My son loved to go out to eat (or at least go out to restaurants, he was too transfixed to eat most of the time) and never made so much as a peep the whole time. Had he not been that way we wouldn't have taken him out to restaurants. Period.
"To expect a nursing mother who is discreetly nursing to go into a public restroom to nurse her infant is slightly ridiculous. And gross. It's perfectly natural and ok for a mom to nurse her kid in public."
Kayke, I can't fully agree with you. There are lots of things that are perfectly acceptable in public in general that still strike some of us as rather inappropriate in a restaurant. This thread is no different than the ones about wearing beach clothes, chatting on your cell phone, etc.; just because you can do it doesn't mean you should, especially in a formal restaurant. As others have said, with parenthood comes responsibilities and hard choices. You can't have a baby and eat your foie gras too.
Back when most restaurants around here had smoking and non-smoking sections we would always answer the hostess's question "smoking or nonsmoking?" with "non-screaming baby section please." We don't have kids, and don't plan to. When we do spend money to eat out we actually want to enjoy it. Nothing ruins a great steak quicker than having a family with screaming kids seated next to you. If there were a "no children" restaurant here I know we would go. What a heavenly idea. Don't get me wrong, I like kids. Love my nieces and nephews. I just don't think they should be inflicted on the public who are paying for an enjoyable evening -- whether it is a chez whatever or the Olive Garden or even the local diner until they can behave in public.
The problem isn't the children - it's the parents who feel that they are entitled to any behavior they choose which includes the behavior of their children. People in general have poor manners, and it's getting worse all the time.
Your average American slob thinks it's perfectly normal and acceptable to go out to dinner dressed in clothes more suited for hanging out in a barnyard - flip-flops, tee-shirts with sayings and/or huge logos all over them, dirty pants, sweats, etc.
When we dine in a restaurant we are in a public setting, yet so many feel that they can dress and behave as if they were in their own filthy trailers. It's depressing and disgusting how far our standards have fallen.
In Europe, South America, and Asia, when one goes out, it's usually in your better clothes, and you are expected to be polite and good mannered. Here in America, it's a free-for-all where parents don't discipline children and allow any and all sorts of improper behavior. I don't enjoy most public settings anymore because of the boorish behavior of people.
I have to agree 100% with kayke here. There are still a lot of people (many in my mom's generation), who have a problem with breastfeeding, period, and thus don't want to see it in public. I'm sorry, but that's your hangup, not mine. If you are perfectly willing to go to the restroom to eat your dinner to avoid seeing me nurse my son, feel free to do so. I am NOT feeding my son in a public restroom. My mother used to leave the room when I nursed my son...her hangup. My mother-in-law (from Europe), had no such issues.
It's not a hard choice that you have to make when you are a parent.. I can eat AND feed a baby at the same time. In fact, in California, companies are required to place for a mother/employee to pump THAT IS NOT A RESTROOM. So why would I feed my baby there?
Alas, that was more than a year ago. My toddler is generally well behaved in restaurants now, but when he misbehaves, one of us takes him outside or we leave. However, in general, we don't eat out very often. I don't find it enjoyable. My son can be quiet nicely for about 30 mins. That means one of us (either my spouse or myself) is eating a cold dinner, and we are rarely able to converse with our friends while trying to keep him quiet. Having them over for dinner is MUCH better - we can talk, and my son can play with his toys.
Don't even get me started on plane trips...have one of those coming up. That's when you bring out the big guns (DVD player).
I have no problem with mothers nursing their children. And I understand that it is considered politically incorrect to object to this. But if you're going to take your baby to a nice restaurant at a time when you KNOW he/she is going to be hungry, the best course would be to pump in advance and bring a bottle. Really. It seems like the hormones women generate soon after childbirth render them immune to the sensibilities of others. Yes yes, its perfectly natural -- its how the baby eats. There are plenty of other "natural" things a baby does that the general public doesn't want to participate in either.
Many fine dining establishments have a secluded area where this can be discreetly done (and yes, some of those places are behind the "ladies room" door -- check it out before you turn it down) I fully appreciate not wanting to nurse your baby while you sit in a toilet stall but there are other places. Once you leave home and join the general public, its not just about you and your baby any more. Are you going to nurse your baby at your older child's soccer game? In church to keep him quiet? At the food court in the mall? Where do you draw the line?
"Are you going to nurse your baby at your older child's soccer game? In church to keep him quiet? At the food court in the mall?"
Yes.
That said, *if* there's a quiet and clean place to do it, I would opt for that. Not for the people who whine about breastfeeding in public, but for my comfort and that of my child.
For example, the stands at a sports game will be noisy, and you're likely to get jostled. It's clearly not the ideal place to nurse a child.
I know this is getting a little off-topic here, but I am interested in this conversation about the etiquette of breastfeeding. Clearly over the past 50-60 years the pendulum has swung away and back again - breastfeeding has been proven to be the most ideal and inexpensive way to feed a child. There are probably a lot of American women who will breastfeed now, but who were themselves not breastfed. I am curious to know what rules our grandmothers or great-grandmothers followed when breastfeeding. I don't have children, but I probably will someday and I will breastfeed them. Of course, this is speculation, but I think that I wouldn't have a problem feeding them at the mall or at a casual resto. But I definitely would not feed them at my synnagogue's services nor would I do so at a really nice place. Did women of past generations feel that breastfeeding 'anytime, anyplace' was appropriate, or were there some rules about it? Should there be rules now? (not laws, but social norms)
My mother didn't breastfeed, so I can't tell you what the rules were. My mother-in-law, from Europe, did, and openly.
"Are you going to nurse your baby at your older child's soccer game? In church to keep him quiet? At the food court in the mall? Where do you draw the line? "
Yes. Yes, and Yes. And I don't draw the line. I nursed my son in nice restaurants, at the mall, in the car, on a plane, in friends' and relatives homes, wherever he is hungry. Whatever the usefulness of pumping is...it's not perfect. Some children never take a bottle, only the breast. On long car or plane trips, it's not always possible to take enough milk - eventually, you will have to nurse, for your own comfort at least. And in a nice restaurant...I would guess that if the toddler hadn't been yelling (as mentioned by the poster), that few people would have even noticed the nursing.
Babies don't always get hungry when you expect them to. So you deal. I know in our town, it's well known what "comfy" places there are to nurse (for example, the ladies "lounge" at a local retailer). But if you are out for a nice dinner because your in-laws are visiting from the opposite coast, and your 5-week old son (who isn't taking a bottle yet) wakes up and gets hungry...you feed him.
I really can't speak for what was appropriate many years ago. My great great grandmother had 18 children and worked the fields. She probably didn't worry about "decorum". By my mother's time, the midwestern-Catholic-guilt-stuffiness-breasts-are-icky meant she didn't breastfeed. Some of my older sisters were having kids in the hippy era, where breastfeeding was more common. My best friend is traveling soon to Malaysia, where breastfeeding in public is socially unacceptable (as opposed to Denmark, where it's normal.)
We have three kids - 3, 3, and 2. We started eating at the Chinese buffet until they mastered the art of eating in a restaurant. Why did we pick this place? Because you pay ahead of time, you have immediate access to food, and there there was plenty for the kids to try out. The second that we arrive, we flagged down the server and asked to put all the condiments and sugar packets in a secure location, and we dropped the tip on the table in case we had to bolt.
We also would bring a cutting board, paring knife, the kids own plates, and their own sippy cups so that they were prepared for a normal dinner routine.
This seems like overkill, but we managed to "train" the kids to have a nice, calm meal, and have started to stretch our wings and have had successful meals at other restaurants now. Any time there was a hint of an impending meltdown, my husband or I would give a warning, start eating as fast as we could, and get ready to leave at the first sign of howling or inappropriate behavior. We've even eaten at this restaurant with six kids under three and only two adults (the looks going in were PRICELESS) without a single incident, and with compliments and thank you's for the well-behaved kids.
Yes, this is quite a stretch from the pre-kid days. We are the ones who chose to have kids, and we knew going in it was our job to raise them. If this means limited dining options for the next couple of years, so be it. Kids that grow up understanding proper behavior and manners if worth more than a nice hot meal I didn't cook any day!
(And besides - there is always carryout!)
Karen ... this is a perfect solution to feeding little ones! They get the restaurant experience without having to decide from a menu and wait for the food. Also an excellent way for them to taste new things without being committed to an entire "order" of something they discover they don't like. You've anticipated every problem and have Plan B in place as needed. No surprise that you were complimented on their behavior. Bravo!!
I am always surprised by parents who think they have some licence to allow their child(ren) to disturb others. On the other hand I am aware that roughly 10% of the adult population has some kind of personality disorder.
Every interaction we have with our kids teaches them how to interact with their own children in the future.
Leaving a restaurant once, I walked by a table with a very obnoxious family, parents swilling Martinis while their kids bounced off the walls and with a smile on my face asked the parents: "Are you in town for the day?" They were speechless.
The following week I was back and the manager asked me what I had said to them because one moment it looked like they were going to rip the place apart and the next the kids were sitting completely still with their hands folded in their laps.
Nope, I still don't understand. I understand that babies need to be nursed when they need to be nursed, that you have every right to take your child to most public places & take care of their needs as they arise.
Obviously, to edit that, you have the right to take them anywhere. But you *shouldn't* take them to nice restaurants for the sake of your fellow diners. That's the whole point. Hire a babysitter or stay home (or go to family-friendly restaurants; I disagree with those who say it shouldn't be done there).
Hence, it's not a "hangup." I don't have a problem with anyone doing anything in the right circumstances. Wear flip-flops to the burger joint. Chat on your cell at the taco stand. Nurse your baby at Chuck E. Cheese. But don't do any of the above at a place where a certain amount of formality is expected.
Nope, I still don't understand. I understand that babies need to be nursed when they need to be nursed, that you have every right to take your child to most public places & take care of their needs as they arise.
Obviously, to edit that, you have the right to take them anywhere. But you *shouldn't* take them to nice restaurants for the sake of your fellow diners. That's the whole point. Hire a babysitter or stay home (or go to family-friendly restaurants; I disagree with those who say it shouldn't be done even there).
Hence, it's not a "hangup." I don't have a problem with anyone doing anything in the right circumstances. Wear flip-flops to the burger joint. Chat on your cell at the taco stand. Nurse your baby at Chuck E. Cheese. But don't do any of the above at a place where a certain amount of formality is expected.
Nurse your kid in a restaurant? Gee......I don't know. I guess maybe it depends on how nice your boobs are.....
I see nursing in a restaurant as a very different issue from children misbehaving in a restaurant, because nursing is normal behavior. I also don't see nursing as incompatible with formality. It can be done fairly discreetly even in a public setting and doesn't produce odors or loud noises that other people can't avoid. If one finds it disturbing for some reason, it isn't necessary to watch.
"I am aware that roughly 10% of the adult population has some kind of personality disorder."
And how!
On the topic of kids behaving badly, it's interesting that there really doesn't seem to be much dispute here. Pretty much everyone here agrees that a) it's a delight to eat with well-behaved children, b) it's annoying to eat with horrible children, c) other people shouldn't have to deal with the horrible children of others and d) horrible children are typically the product of horrible parents who really don't care about other people. Oh, and e) managers who step up to chastise these horrible parents should be given medals.
The sad realization is that none of these horrible parents seem to read CHOW and thus will never hear our words of wisdom/complaint. And they know what they're doing. They know it's wrong. That's why they get so angry and defensive when confronted. Nobody likes being called out, especially when they know that they're the ones who screwed up.
I only wish common sense was, you know, COMMON.
To paraphrase my hero, W.C. Fields, "I love children, if they're properly cooked.":
From the OP:
>>When kids run wild, when should the restaurant intervene, and what’s the best way to go about it?>>
My opinion: Certainly when the kids are running around unsupervised, creating a danger to themselves and others. At that point a manager (rather than a server, for all the reasons cited above) can and should invoke safety. Tell them they're going to have to keep the kids at the table. If they can't or won't, wrap the food up to go.
If they are sitting at the table but just making a lot of noise or something, it's harder to justify intervening. At my favorite Italian restaurant, staff pay a *lot* of attention to families with kids. The owner comes by and talks to them-- including the kids-- in a friendly manner, early on and more than once. The server also engages the children. The positive attention really seems to work, maybe because it reminds these families they are in a social setting. If a family did go on causing a ruckus (which I have not seen at this place) fellow diners would be aware that at least staff were trying to manage it. Same would be the case with misbehaving adults, actually. It helps that this restaurant has tons of staff, so they have time to "love-bomb" problem diners.
Dana__what, your posting begs the question: Has anyone ever witnessed a restaurant manager who has ever chastised a parent of a misbehaving child, a misbehaving parent or a misbehaving restaurant patron? And if so, how have the other restaurant patrons reacted?
Sorry but I couldn't help asking.
I enjoy dining in restraunts where kids eat if they are well behaved. I like to see them even if they are standing in the booths and talking and making a little mess. This is normal behavior for a toddler. I have no problem with this. If they are misbehaving, and the parents are just oblivious to what is going on, that is another story. If you find youself in a situation where kids running wild or screaming maybe the solution is to ask to speak to the manager and complain, that your meal was totally disrupted and you will not return if something is not done. If enough patrons did this, maybe management would get the message that they have to deal with it. It is a delicate situation, I realize that. If the majority of diners who are not able to enjoy a meal would complain to the management maybe the management would finally get the message, either deal with unrully kids or loose partons that would be more likely return than the ones with the kids, who would want them back anyway. I just dont see the logic in management who would take the risk of loosing a lot more patrons from not dealing with these situations than just loosing people who drive the majority of people away. Lets all take a proactive approach to this and from now on request to speak to the manager and make sure they know you were unhappy and will not return.