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Table Manners
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Done Eating, Not DiningWhen should a server take your plate? |
Dear Helena,
I hate it when I’m eating in a restaurant and the server snatches everyone’s plates away the instant they are done. I like to take my time over a meal and sometimes am the last to finish. I feel like by removing the other plates, the server is trying to rush me through dinner. When clearing plates, shouldn’t the server wait until all members of the party have stopped eating? Or is it now considered good service to whisk away each diner’s plate as soon he is done? —Savoring My Entrée
Dear Savoring My Entrée,
Some servers may take plates away in an effort to hurry you up and turn the table. But they know their tip will be smaller if you haven’t had a pleasant experience. More likely, they are removing plates as diners finish because they think that is attentive service. In fact, it’s an annoying intrusion, like when they top off your water glass each time you take a sip.
Martha Keller, a hospitality instructor at the Culinary Institute of America’s California campus, says: “The proper etiquette is to wait until everyone has completed their meal and clear everyone at once.”
A diner should be content to have his empty plate in front of him while he waits for his companions to finish. Unfortunately, as Keller points out, some people feel an obsessive-compulsive need to get rid of their plate as soon as they are done. “People sometimes shove their plates away to signal to the server to take it,” she says.
And some diners are anxious to have the remains of their meal taken away so they won’t be tempted to overeat. Jonny Bowden, author of Living the Low Carb Life: Controlled Carbohydrate Eating for Long-Term Weight Loss, cautions dieters that having your half-eaten burger sitting in front of you could lead to “mindless picking.”
But, when you’re having dinner with people you care about, you are enjoying one of life’s greatest pleasures, and for the short space of time you are seated at the table, all you should be thinking about is the meal and the conversation. Ideally, you shouldn’t be worrying about your waistline or chafing at the sight of a dirty plate, and should be happy to wait until your companions have finished. (Your friends, in turn, should try to eat at a reasonable pace.)
When everyone is finished, the server should not pile the plates in an unwieldy tower so he can remove them all at once, as he could send lukewarm spaghetti slithering into someone’s lap. According to Keller, no server should clear more than three plates at a time. Two is the ideal, because even the clumsiest server can remove a pair of plates without incident. In top-tier restaurants, she says, all the plates should be removed at once, which means there should be one server for every two diners, all working together. That way, clearing the plates causes minimum interruption to the diners’ conversation.
As a side note, I’ve noticed that people at restaurants and home dinner parties sometimes try to help clear the table by scraping food remains and cutlery onto a single plate, then piling the other plates neatly underneath. This is a bad idea: A pile of plates in the center of the table can be hard for a server to reach or lift. Plus, watching congealed lamb chops get mixed together with wilted spinach and pieces of damp bread may cause indigestion.
Table Manners appears every Wednesday. Have a Table Manners question? Email Helena.
Keller is, of course, correct - "The proper etiquette is to wait until everyone has completed their meal and clear everyone at once.”
But this doesn't seem to be the case in most places in LA. I am a slow eater and I often feel a bit rushed (but I try not to notice).
In nice restaurants, eg Lucques, they won't clear the plates ahead of your companion(s). I notice things like this and it signifies a high level of service as well as a respect for the slow diner (me). So this attention to my comfort is definitely something that encourages me to return.
BUT here's my main complaint -- outside of the US a diner signifies they have concluded their meal by placing their cutlery side by side, fork tines facing upwards. It's a clear sign you are no longer eating.
When I have my knife and fork at "four & eight o'clock" respectively, tines down, then -- newsflash -- I am still dining and do not want either the waitstaff nor the bus staff to reach for my plate or ask if "I am done with that."
Ugh.
My most pet peeve is having a plate removed while I am still chewing my last mouthful. I am unable to thank them!
Dear Abby wrote about this in column of hers. ( I can't remember when, seems like it was within the past year) Apparently, she got extensive mail in favor of both. It seems a no-win situation for servers. Either way someone is going to be unhappy. Despite what Helena thinks, plenty of nice people would rather not have their plate sit in front of them. It has nothing to do with not enjoying the company of one's dining companions. While I am usually not bothered by Helena's missteps, her implication that those who want their plate removed when they are finished eating are rude and inconsiderate really annoys me.
As a member of the "Slow Eaters" club as well as the "Clean Plate" club, I pay attention to tricks that will allow me to keep my plate from being taken before I've finished.
Maxmillion - I was instructed that forks with the tines *down* was the signal that I was finished eating and my plate could be removed. Maybe this is differently interpreted in different regions?
If I sense my plate is about to be cleared before I've completed my meal, I simply hold my fork which generally signals to the server that I'm still "using" it.
I'm one of the people who would rather have my plate cleared after I've finished eating. I feel awkward with an empty plate in front of me, and I'd rather have the extra space once done consuming my food to stretch forward and more intimately engross myself in the conversation of my dining companions. Once I've completed my meal, the plate becomes just unnecessary clutter.
Im a card carrying member of the slow eater club too, and I am ALWAYS the last to finish. I learned long ago about the fork&knife at 5 o'clock rule to signal that you are finished, but not every server in every restaurant is trained to read this. I've developed the habit of just holding onto my fork and allowing it to hover over the plate to indicate that Im "still working on that".
Its not always the server who may be the problem here, either. I had a co-worker with whom I had lunch fairly often and he was always pumping me for etiquette tips, as he knew that one faux pas on his part in front of our European management could impede his rise up the corporate ladder. One of the hardest habits to break was his inclination to stack up the empty plates when the meal was over. "I'm just trying to help" was his explanation. "You don't work here" I told him. (Now, this was Olive Garden - his favorite place for lunch - so we had a few other things to work on too!!)
Is there a way to send this article to every restaurant in the New-York metro area? I am always the last to finish, and I find it to be such an intrusion when waiters take others' plates while I am still eating, not to mention the fact that I feel rushed and self-conscious, like I'm taking too long because I'm overeating Even the "fork-hover" trick isn't foolproof - on several occasions I've had a server ask if I was finished while I was practically mid-bite (at which point I am so put off that I simply let him take it).
Im with you, Andrea. Many years ago I had dinner at a greek restaurant in NYC, where the server would try to take away my bread plate every time liifted my pita to take a bite. Finally on the third attempt, I actually grabbed his arm and said "PLEASE leave the plate! I am still eating!". I too feel like the "overeater" when all the other plates are gone and mine is still in front of me. But I understand there are others who want the plate gone as soon as they are done, regardless of how others at the table might fell. And the servers really CAN'T read our minds, you know!
As a veteran member of the "Slow Eaters of North America" club, I've grown used to gripping my plate with both hands when threatened with its disappearance. In the Los Angeles area, I've learned to smile and nod sweetly when asked "Are you STILL working on that?" (as if I were an ABD plodding toward the completion of a PhD. over the course of a decade).
There are two different dining settings fine and casual. Fine dining is just that and the service should follow all rules of etiquette. Casual dining rules are different. Etiquette is an afterthought. In fact casual dining at a national chain restaurant (Applebee's, Olive Garden, et al) is actually fast food. The owners of these restaurants want you to eat fast and get out. The servers may not agree but the corporations want numbers not experiences. It is a constant battle that workers at these establishments fight everyday: customer service vs. corporate service. However, the entire issue is diffused if the server simply asks, “Would you like me to clear your table?”
Since we have brought up etiquette, it is never good etiquette for you to hang out at a restaurant after you have finished your meal. This is America not Europe. Every fifteen minutes you sit at a table after your meal is done you are costing that restaurant and the server money. If you like to “camp” the proper etiquette is to leave an additional $1 per person for every 30 minutes you sit after your meal is done on top of the minimum 20% you should leave on the cost of your bill.
My biggest peeve is when they snatch away my wine/drink before it's empty. No really, I paid for that and want to drink every drop, hands off!
Being a server and having been reprimanded both ways on this issue I have to say, we are not mind readers. I have had people ask in a rude tone of voice "if I could get this out of their way" within seconds of their finishing and have also had people get offended when I tried to remove a completely empty plate because their dining companion wasn't finished. Someone said earlier in this thread that it's a no-win for the server and they are right. Regardless of whether you want us to take your plate or not, when we ask if you are done we are just doing our jobs, so please be polite in your response.
I agree -- similar to the Dear Abby column, this topic has come up on chowhound and there was no consensus. Also, the "knife/fork signal" does vary from place to place is a lot of servers aren't trained to recognize it anymore, which makes it problematic. I know things are supposed to be more causal and democratic these days, but formal etiquette has its place in creating a system of rules and signals that are universally understood.
It's all a question of context for me. In a fine restaurant - I expect to never be bothered by such issues. Unfortunately there are few well trained waitpersons anymore. Too often I hear the phrase "Are you still working on that?" - perfectly OK to hear from a woman older than me at a diner. She may also call me "hon" "dear" 'Sweety" and anything else she wants, it goes with the territory. But that phrase is NOT OK to hear anywhere else.
Of course the companion phrase often heard when I say "Thank you." to a server is "No Problem." - WTF? at these prices it better be no problem...and if it is I don't care!!!! I hear from many dining companions that I'm a pleasant guest and when I hear either of those phrases from a wait-person, I might take them aside away from the table and express my angst at hearing them uttered with a suggestion on how to improve their skills...married to a $10 or $20 - if I expect to be back.
If I don't think the place is worth the effort - meaning they've thrown together a menu of 'pop' food and hastily staffed the restaurant with kids from the local J.C. who are only looking for tips. I make it habit to never return.
Barry
I'll start by saying I don't have the pleasure at eating at fine dining establishments more than 4 times a year.
That being said...
I'd rather be overserved than underserved. You're not going to win all the time, and if the waiter is trying to assist when not needed, I find no reason to give him/her hell.
I'd find it very annoying if I have a plate of residual sauce or meat drippings sitting in front of me for 10-15 minutes while I'm trying to converse with my company.
I'm definitely in the camp of get it out of my way NOW please. The biggest reason being that even if I've had enough (or too much!) I will continue picking at what ever's left until the plate is empty. By putting my fork and knife in the done position, I'm signalling I'm done. And that pile of potatoes or pasta or rice that I didn't touch needs to leave before I start. I understand it's not "proper", but looking at my leftovers congeal in front of me does't feel right either. Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way! (Sorry slow eaters, I occasionally do eat with a VERY SLOW eater and waiting for him to finish is bad enough without having dirty dishes in front of me. He often takes more than 30 minutes after everyone else is done and it definitely goes by more pleasantly with a cup of coffee or an after dinner drink than with a dirty plate.)
In a number of restaurants I worked in while in college, managers went ballistic if you came back to the kitchen from the dining room with empty hands. Anytime we saw an empty plate/glass/bread basket we were under strict orders to bring it in. I got yelled at on both ends - from customers who though it was rude to take a plate while others were still eating and the manager at the other end when I came back empty handed. Depending on the restaurant it is likely how the staff is trained that determines if they take the plates, not the waiters personal choice. In NY a few years later, worked at a restaurant that had the "correct" ettiquette - once again got it from both ends: customers (like me) who want the plate removed, owner yelling that I'm NOT ALLOWED to take a plate until the whole table is through. Oy.
1. I don't think we should be yelling at waiters regardless of the service. Tips with tips (a la Barry) are fine.
2. I think that preferences aside, when the dishes are cleared prematurely it draws attention to the fact that one person ate quickly (wants to leave? is tacky in his fast eating? etc.) and another is eating slowly (uninterested in whether he is boring his companion? eating far too much? etc.) and I think in formal situations good etiquette is still appropriate.
I recently had a funny experience with this... a waiter cleared the other three diners' plates, boxed their leftovers, and then came back to take their dessert orders. I'm still clearly only halfway through my salad, and I say, "Actually, they're being *polite* and waiting for me to finish, since I'm still eating my dinner." I think the waiter was very embarrassed, but for some reason my dining companions thought it was hilarious -- something about my restrained but clearly irritated tone, I guess. Those desserts didn't come for another 45 minutes at least.
You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. As a server, I've been barked at for attempting to take a plate that a person had their napkin in. I've also had people shove their plates at me while I'm in the middle of something else and having to take their plate immediately disrupts my service to other tables.
We're taught to take the plates away when someone is done. If you don't like it, simply say "I'd like to keep it until everyone has finished." It's not that hard.
Not everyone thinks in terms of etiquette. It's a time of convenience and comfort, good or bad.
My peeve in this area is being asked by the wai/ter/tress "are you still working on that?"
I wasn't working, I was eating. I know it's a picky thing, but somebody has to be picky and it might as well be me.
I agree. The question makes me feel like an incompetent eater, which I'm definitely not:) I suggest something like "OK if clear that away for you?", a question that shoudn't even be asked unless the customer has put down the fork and stopped eating.
@BarryCBMartin: I think taking the waiter aside and giving them 'suggestions' would be a rude thing to do. After all, they are doing a job, just like you do, and you wouldn't like if someone from outside came in and told you how to do you job, right? Regardless of if they're doing it wrong, it's their boss' place to say something, not yours.
@StillWater girl: Working in a restaurant, I completely agree with you. We can't read minds, and every single person likes to be treated differently. I've been taught to remove all plates at once when everyone's finished, but some people call you up and ask you to remove their plates when their companions are not done, or even worse, they ask you for dessert.
And also, one server for every two diners? That means half of America would have to be waiters on a busy night.
I missed the "one server for every two diners" comment! Where was that on here? That's an insane idea for two reasons. One being exactly what harfenist said above, half of America would have to strap on an apron to wait on the other half of America. Secondly, if you want to complain about undertrained servers that would be the fastest way to exacerbate that problem. The reason the well trained servers are as good as they are is because they make an excellent living in a profession they enjoy. If they were suddenly cut down to one or two tables at a time, therefore causing a significant drop in income, my guess is they wouldn't stick around very long. I realize this is completely off-topic but I thought that comment warranted a response.
After reading some of the replies here--and almost always after reading the servers threads on Chowhound--I feel so, so sorry for servers today who have to cater to obnoxious customers who feel entitled to everything.
It's amazing how rude some people can be to a complete stranger. I'll say 90% of the people I wait on are great. Polite, good tippers, etc... As for the other 10%, those are the diners who believe that "it's our job" to be their temporary servants. They are also the ones who think we're trained to read minds. I'm here to assist in any way I can to make your experience more enjoyable, not to let you run me in circles without a please or a thank you and clean up after your kids.
The fact of the matter is that most americans do not have the benifit of growing up in a household where dining etiquitte is taught and respected. Helena is quite correct that proper service in a restaurant dictates srvers should wait untill the last diner is finished before clearing plates. Those respondants who are using silverware placement as a means of communication (the show finish, or meal at pause positions) represent a very smalll minority of american diners. It can be very educational to observe things such as how diners hold silver (stabbing food with forks held in the fist thumb up and tines downfor example) I try to teach my waiters to look for these clues as they often give a heads up as to which sort of preferences a guest will have, At the end of the day waiters should default to the correct rules of service but with the understanding that their job is to serve and not judge so that if a patron wishes or indicates that they wish to have a plate/ cutlery cleared early it should be done so in as timely manner as possible.
Ok, so chances are if I do this at work I'm trying to make you hurry up. What you have to understand is that I make most of my income in tips and if you're taking foreeeever to eat it's better for me to risk getting a very small tip from you as long as I can turn the table.
If you want to avoid feeling rushed, try making reservations during the slower times of day. Most servers aren't going to rush you if there isn't anyone waiting for the table.
Wow- a classic "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
I do have one thought- why would you dine out with somebody who was still picking away at their salad when everybody else was finished, packed up, nad ready to go? I mean, more than once, anyway- that would drive me right out of my mind!
Nice selection of comments from servers and other restaurant people here. I particularly like wwashington's comment about tailoring server behavior based on observing the customer's demeanor. Very astute!
Having lived in Europe for a while I am one of those few Americans who is familiar with the flatware signaling procedure, which is pretty well universally observed over there. Here in the US I've become resigned to the fact that almost no servers recognize it (or if they do, they see it used so seldom as to be an unreliable guide). And I agree that it is not appropriate to remove any plates until all diners have finished a particular course, but I'm not offended when this happens, especially in less-than-sublime settings.
Speaking of which, to those who are boggled by the thought of having one server for every two people to clear properly: this is correct procedure, but not something that is expected anywhere but in the finest and most expensive (and yes, I realize that those two adjectives are not synonymous) establishments. When I experience it it's like a well-choreographed ballet - and I see it about as often as I get to the ballet, which is to say rarely.
Pella, I will tip you better than any two tables you rush through their meals if you are simply respectful. I will not make reservations at the slow time of the day. I am paying a lot to eat in your restaurant (If you are working at a chain I don't go there)
I also loved wwashington's comments.
I am sometimes slow, sometimes fast in comparison to my co-diners. Leave my plate. Leave theirs. Just don't leave all of our plates for 20 minutes after we have touched them.
My thought is to approach diners who appear to be finished, ask if their meal was satisfactory, ask if they require anything from you at that time. this allows the fast people who can'y bear empty plates to say take this, allows others to say, coffee or another glass of wine or no thank you
To clear the table early -- possibly while other table-members are still eating -- is called pre-bussing. When I was a server we were pressured to pick up empty plates/glasses/whathaveyou and if we failed to do so would little by little be considered "bad servers" and given the bad shifts and the bad tables. Gatta play by the boss' rules! Now that I am the eater, not the server, I HATE when servers DON'T take my plates. I place my silverware and napkin on my plate and then usually move the dish/glass to the side of the table -- two clues that usually help the server to remove my setting. Or if they still don't take it away I willingly hand it to them. Nevertheless I treat the server with respect and reflect my taste of their service in their tip and only comment to the manager if the service was actually disrespectful and more than awful, and whether or not the server takes my plates or not never is a deciding factor.
I think it's also important to take into account of where you're eating. I know how snobbish Chowhounders are about chain restaurants, but let's say you're eating at one... odds are, the rules the server plays by are imposed on them. Corporate decides everything, including when/how dishes are cleared. This is also true in many non-corporate places. Places run by celebrity chef's have more to risk than just a regular bistro, so everything has a system. If you don't like it, just tell the server to leave your plate or take it away.If you have a server that's unwilling to take your requests into account, that's a whole other story.
I think the one thing that a lot of people forget is that the people who serve you and help you at restaurants are people. For some reason those f us in the service industry tend to be sort of moved into the category of "droid" I don't wait tables, I manage a gym, but the treatment is the same: "you're here to serve ME, so I can be rude to you" Many perfectly nice people fall into this habit of demanding demanding demanding to such an extent that they are quite openly rude to those who are serving their needs.
I've had papers shoved in my face, telephone calls interrupted, conversations with other clients interrupted, fingers snapped at me, people come around my desk and try to use my office to hold private cell phone conversations (here's a hint: you're in a gym, turn the damn thing off and exercise). My favorite was when someone handed me unwrapped gum to throw away. I've even been coughed and sneezed on.
I've seen waiters suffer similar indignities.
If a waiter clears your plate or cup before you are done, say "no thank you". If he tries it again, say it more strongly, "please, I am not ready yet, others are still dining." If you want it cleared early, then politely ask when he or she comes near or buy, "Excuse me, when you are free, please take my plate, I am finished."
Heck, if you want, tell the waiter as you are ordering, "I know this may be premature, but I'd like you to know that we would not like our plates cleared until the party is finished, if that's at all possible" , or, "Excuse me, this may be a little, but I just really like my plate taken away when I'm finished, even if others here aren't. But I'll wait till they are done for coffee/dessert."
Then be sure to tip well if your server complies.
Me, I tend to like things removed when I'm finished. it's a weight-control thing. Daddy trained me to eat what's in front of me. He also was a fan of never liking an empty plate on his table. The dude kept giving us more, proud that he could provide and feed us well, I guess. Then he wondered why I got so fat as a kid. I can't bear an empty plate, I'll keep putting more on it, be it bread or whatnot. Well, especially bread. ow that I have worked hard to get the blubber off and keep it off, I need to get that plate away when done.
This is also why I tend to like moving away from the table after big holiday meals.
Ooohh, what a long aside!
Anyhow, what I mean is, just respect your server, runner, table clearer and more, and your service will probably match your needs, or exceed them. hey, those of us who serve you deserve respect, too!
Having worked in high end restaurants in every capacity for the last 15 years, I'd say there's about a 90/10 ratio of those who want to be cleared immediately versus those who don't.
Our waiters are required to ask, "May I begin clearing or shall I wait until everyone has finished?". This lets the customer know the waiter is trying to cater to their individual needs, without pressuring them.
Personally, I understand the etiquette value of waiting til everyone at the table has finished, but excuses like "I feel rushed" or "I feel like I'm overeating" are kind of garbage to me. Here's a tip: if everyone else at your table has long-since finished eating and you've been dawdling over your salad, YOU'RE being rude, both to your guests and to those waiting for your table. Also, does a cold, congealed piece of filet really taste good 60+ minutes later? Ugh.
I think it all depends on your dining companions. When I'm with quicker eaters, I follow suit. Same with slower eaters. Either way, I think trying to adapt to the nuances of your guests make for a polite diner, and overall enjoyable dining experience. If everyone basically finishes around the same time, these clear/don't clear issues become obsolete.
Servers are definitely in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation when it comes to this topic. Personally, I like it when a server, thinking that you are finished, politely asks "would you like me to clear some of these plates for you?" instead of asking, "are you finished with that?" This way you can say yes or no, depending on whether you are finished.
yes dinwiddie that's perfect ! which should follow with the server taking only those plates etc that are empty.
I hate being asked "are you finished with that" or "are you still working on that?" ....it makes me feel like a pig if I want to keep eating.
I also give a thumbs down to the servers who remove plates/platters/appetizer baskets etc with food still in them, or wine glasses with wine, without even asking. Hey i still wanted that and I paid for it !! It's almost as if they're telling me i've had enough.
>Our waiters are required to ask, "May I begin clearing or shall I wait until everyone has finished?"<
That's the best approach I've heard/read yet.
Having worked in Fine Dining for 25 years, you are requiring your staff to be rude and unprofessional.
"After reading some of the replies here--and almost always after reading the servers threads on Chowhound--I feel so, so sorry for servers today who have to cater to obnoxious customers who feel entitled to everything."
So true! Go to a fine dining restaurant if you feel "put-off" by servers not adhering to your definition of etiquette. There are different sets of social norms for different situations, and I think that people who expect fine-dining service in a casual restaurant are getting mixed up. The sets of behavior that apply to each are not the same. Also, speak to the manager if you feel that a server's behavior or lingo is offensive ("Are you still working on that?"). Giving your tips (even with money attached) is patronizing, condescending, and rude.
Barry,
Your social ineptitude is pitiful. Have you ever considered why someone says "no problem"? It's not for their benefit, it's for yours. Some people are actually considerate of the impact their requests have on the lives of others. "No problem" is simply a way of letting you know that IF you were worried that you were being bothersome, rest assured you are not. Furthermore, many people say "no problem" when you ARE being a bother but they want you to know that it's okay.
As someone else said, it's not your job to correct servers. It's management's job. If you don't like how management trains employees, dine somewhere else or speak to the manager. The fact that you accompany your rudeness with money doesn't make it acceptable. It just makes you more of a pretentious ass.