stories : Table Manners
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Get a RoomNo fondling over dinner |
Dear Helena,
When my friend finally found a girlfriend, I was happy for him, but now they can’t stop touching each other. I seriously can’t stand having him over for dinner anymore, because he acts like they’re just on a date. Holding hands or even putting your arms around each other seems OK, but why does she always have to sit on his lap? If not that, she’s stroking his arm, squeezing his knee, or playing footsie under the table. Is this behavior rude or am I just being a kill-joy? Where PDAs (public displays of affection) are concerned, how much is too much? And is there a polite way of asking my friend and his girlfriend not to paw at each other? —The Anti-Cupid
Dear Anti-Cupid,
I once had a friend and his girlfriend to dinner, and all evening long, they played with each other’s hands. Gazing into each other’s eyes, they barely made eye contact with the other guests. I served a chocolate mousse cake for dessert. My friend daubed a little on his girlfriend’s arm and licked it off. I felt like a voyeur.
Couples should avoid making obviously sexual gestures. Not only do they make other guests uncomfortable, they can also make them depressed. Bella DePaulo, author of Singled Out, a book in which she argues that singles are stigmatized, says, “It’s like [the couple] is saying: ‘We’re so madly in love and so sexual.’ It’s offensive in the same way as it would be if someone who worked in finance started bragging about taking home a huge bonus.”
On the other hand, when your friends are in relationships, it’s nice to see a little PDA—an arm around the shoulder, a peck on the cheek, a caress of the hand. It reassures you that people you care about love each other and are happy.
So where do you draw the line? A good question for lustful couples to ask themselves is: Are we paying more attention to each other than to our friends who invited us over? Take footsie, for instance. If someone is gently resting his foot against his lover’s foot, it doesn’t distract the pair from the conversation. But if someone is busy inching her bare toes up the other’s leg, the couple won’t be able to focus on much else.
If you bring it up, the couple may react defensively. Any time you’re hoping to change someone’s bad manners, you should use “I” statements. Make it about you, not about them. For example, you might say: “I feel like I didn’t get enough time with you last night.”
If your friend doesn’t get the hint, you’ll have to put up with his behavior. Just be sure that when you have him and his girlfriend over, you don’t serve anything resembling body frosting.
Table Manners appears every Wednesday. Have a Table Manners question? Email Helena.
if you go to someone's house for dinner you attn s/b on them simple
you can wait for your dessert (lol) till later if not kindly refuse the invite
While I can see how many people would be annoyed by this, I personally think that it's kind of cute, as long as it remains romantic infatuation and doesn't go grossly sexual. My partner and I were like this when we first started dating and fortunately for us, despite the fact that I'm sure it was irritating, most of our friends were pretty tolerant of it. I have a few single, lonely friends and if they met someone they could be this intimate with, I would be thrilled for them.
Besides, the mega-mega lusty factor in relationships usually doesn't last all that long, so the initial poster probably won't have to deal with it for more than a few months. I also believe that having this initial intense lusting is important to having a relationship become successful and endure to form that initial passionate connection, so armed with that opinion, I would encourage this.
This is a topic I've long hoped to see discussed.
Medio tutissimus ibis - You will go safest in the middle. (Moderation in all things) - Ovid
And that goes double for humping over dessert.
Sounds like this couple is trying a little too hard, always a sure sign of a relationship in trouble. I'd suggest hosing them off like dogs.
Or maybe next time offer an all stinky menu (funky cheese, garlic, etc.) so as to put them off of making out at the table!
I know someone who has been with her boyfriend for over 5 years. They are still fondling each others hands on top of the dinner table, playing and twirling each others' hair as everyone casually chats in the living room, or lightly brushing their fingers up and down each others thighs and arms. They are not distracted and still completely pay attention to the conversation and everything going on at the group gatherings but it's extremely hard to pay attention to anything they say because everyone is too repulsed by all their touching.
2 points here
1 in the opening of this article it appears they have been asked to dinner many time
so ok once or twice a little feely grabby the 1st one to 3 times but it is growing old not for the two doing it but for the people around them
2 NOT said here but if any kids are around it should be a no no
Anyone with even just a basic knowledge about good manners would not behave like that. I would give that friend a book about etiquette for her/his birthday. In this era entitlement, a la:"me, me, me", it seems like more and more people would benefit from etiquette education.
I actually agree with the poster who wrote: "Sounds like this couple is trying a little too hard, always a sure sign of a relationship in trouble." Yup, sounds a bit too desperate. Who are they trying to convince, themselves or the others - or both? There are people who need an audience to "witness" that they "truly" are in "love", so that the couple can believe ("feel") it too, but actually they feel hollow somewhere inside.
But whatever the reason is, in my opinion that kind of behavior is so disrespectful toward the host / hostess, disregarding all their effort (all that work!) to create a lovely evening for everyone, with good food, nice discussion and pleasant atmosphere. It is plainly rude and selfish.
My husband and I are romantics - and still, after a long marriage, feel very affectionate toward each other, but we would not even dream about disregarding our hosts and dinner companions like that - and forcing them to be our audience.
If my friend behaved like that at my dinner table, I would have a gentle but firm chat with him/her after the party, in private, expressing happiness for her/him, but also asking him/her to respect common boundaries while in company - at someone else's house. Actually, depending on the situation (if I noticed that the other guests clearly felt uncomfortable), I might ask them to tone it down, right there and then. (It actually can be done in a positive tone.) Or, I will ask the friend to "come help me" in another room, and then talk to her /him. I will not let one or two selfish people ruin an evening I have worked hard for.
Holding hands or little discreet gestures of fondness are fine, but to keep fondling and playing footsie, etc., is definitely not.
We actually once experienced this at a restaurant. We were seated next to a couple, who were basically engaged in foreplay. We refuse to be anybody's audience, so we "requested" (demanded) to be seated far away from them.
foodwine after your request the waiter should have gotten the hint and ask them to behave or leave rather than have you move you should not have to move. it's kinda like they did the bad thing and your punished (you go sit in the corner)
I am a great fan of punctuation, but not everyone is.
I am a great fan of public affection, as long as it's not overly sexual -- that's when you should probably -- as suggested in the title -- *get a room*.
I do have a hard time understanding QP's repulsion by 'lightly brushing your fingers over your SO's arms or legs' (presuming they are fully dressed and don't start making porn faces). Repulsion's a strong word for something that sounds rather innocent. Unless you are lonely & miserable and thus can't stand seeing a couple be nice to each other...
I had to deal with this recently at a party I threw. It was a costume party, and the guests took their costumes as license to get really "handsy" with each other. My solution was to go up to the couple and say I was glad that they were so comfortable, but I wanted my other guests to be comfortable, too, and were they OK reducing the PDA? This worked really well, I invited them to my next party, and - now that they weren't paying so much attention to each other - they hit it off with some of my other friends.
I think the best response is to ignore the behaviour.
linguafood: I have to agree with you; we may not all be touchy people who enjoy PDAs, but given QueenPeach's earlier statements about the couple's comportment, I find it confusing that she is "repulsed". I don't know in her case specifically, but I do concur that in many cases, such feelings are likely an expression of relationship jealousy or jadedness.
As for the people who said that they thought this was a sign that the relationship is in jeopardy, I suppose that this could be true, but I doubt it. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, my husband and I were extremely touchy - much moreso than this couple. This was not because we were having relationship problems in any capacity but because we were just completely overcome by how emotionally infatuated we were for one another. We've been together for over four years now and things continue to be phenomenal; indeed, even though the flames of white-hot passion have cooled over time, remembering those deep intimate moments we had earlier on really does warm my heart and help to spark things up and rekindle the romance.
I do agree that in many cases it can be from relationship jealousy, however for me it's not the case. I'm extremely happy for my longtime friend and am in my own happy relationship. Also, to answer someone else's question, No, they are not fully dressed, she could be wearing a miniskirt, a tube top or some other garb that has skin on skin action too close to private parts for comfort. If you sitting right next to the couple on a couch, you don't need to have the bare thigh next to you being massaged. Repulse is a strong word, but if you have to endure PDA that makes you feel uncomfortable over and over and over again, then eventually discomfort will inevitably become repulsion. Since I have a crowd of friends who are equally replused by their PDA, I know that I'm not being overly sensitive. Maybe you wouldn't feel this way if it happens to you only every so often or once in a blue moon, but you have not put yourself in my shoes and you just don't know. Also, I thought it was pretty passive aggressive, LinguaFood, to imply that only someone who is "lonely & miserable and thus can't stand seeing a couple be nice to each other..." would feel this way. Are you being passive aggressive because it's actually something YOU do with your loved one??? All in all, it's just plain bad ettiquette to do such things at the dinner table and I think we can all agree on that.
I do agree that in many cases it can be from relationship jealousy, however for me it's not the case. I'm extremely happy for my longtime friend and am in my own happy relationship. Also, to answer someone else's question, No, they are not fully dressed, she could be wearing a miniskirt, a tube top or some other garb that has skin on skin action too close to private parts for comfort. If you sitting right next to the couple on a couch, you don't need to have the bare thigh next to you being massaged. Repulse is a strong word, but if you have to endure PDA that makes you feel uncomfortable over and over and over again, then eventually discomfort will inevitably become repulsion. Since I have a crowd of friends who are equally replused by their PDA, I know that I'm not being overly sensitive. Maybe you wouldn't feel this way if it happens to you only every so often or once in a blue moon, but you have not put yourself in my shoes and you just don't know. Also, I thought it was pretty passive aggressive, LinguaFood, to imply that only someone who is "lonely & miserable and thus can't stand seeing a couple be nice to each other..." would feel this way. Are you being passive aggressive because it's actually something YOU do with your loved one? All in all, it's just plain bad ettiquette to do such things at the dinner table and I think we can all agree on that.
QueenPeach... I'm in your corner. After the age of 21, you should be able to go 2 hours without constantly touching each other. We have a group of friends we socialize with frequently all in their mid 30's to late 40's. It is very common to occasionally see PDA between the couples (a glass of wine is delivered with a kiss on the cheek... a wife gets her husbands attention away from the game by a gentle rub on the shoulders... a quick kiss if passing in a hall...arm around the shoulder while sitting on a sofa). But that's the limit. Frankly, watching any one twirl their own hair or someone elses is irritating (didn't all of our mom's have us stop that behavior by highschool? are they chewing gum too?) and fingers constantly up and down your own or someone elses arm makes me wonder if a rash is involved and ointment is needed. If you wouldn't engage in that behavior in front of your boss or your grandmother than don't do it in front of me.
Immature...
Another vote here for "hosing them off like dogs."
What a great week to post such a thing for all us lonely and bitter people...haha
I think most people are talking about limits here. If you are at a dinner party or a restaurant, no sitting on laps feeding each other, and no licking things off each other...particularly if you are not alone at the table ! Affection is great, i love seeing even people who have been together for years show affection. However if i wanted to be in the bedroom with you, that's where i'd be . My or your dinner table is not your bedroom (well...at least when there's guests around, lol )
I recently went to a casual dinner/cocktail type party , myself and two couples. I felt like i was alone in the room for the majority of the night and seriously questioned why i had even come over. I often wondered where to avert my eyes. Way to make someone feel like a fifth wheel.
Something no one else mentions is that some of these behaviors can be territorial. Ever notice how much the PDA's increase if a single person is floating around? I've seen some of these things that almost make me wonder if he or she is about to pee and mark their territory, lol .
want to stop them when they are getting a little to carried away
ask if you can join in
either they will stop OR you may be in for a good time me i'd go for either
foodperv, do you use your cell phone to post these comments?
no i don't own one don't believe in them
why?
foodperv, let me assure you that, unlike the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus, cell phones do exist.
@ foodperv - perhaps PlatypusJ meant your posting style was similar to txtng.
cf the indecipherable segment of your first post, to wit:
"...you attn s/b on them..."
Perhaps reserve txtspk for chatting with teens and make the effort to communicate with clarity on a public bulletin board?
I mean, I am interested if what you have to say, foodperv, so I don't want to skip your comments because they are too tough to decode.
Hey, I think romance is wonderful, love is beautiful, courtship is sensational, and relationships are the best idea humankind has had since the wheel. (This "senorita" is unpartnered but hoped to soon find her real-life "Zorro") Having said that, I think there's a time and a place for everything, and manners are manners. In love or not, there are certain ways one conducts oneself in public or in social company, and certain ways one does not. Hand-holding is adorable, as is a light kiss (ON THE CHEEK!), or lightly touching or patting your partner's hand or arm, or making a flattering remark to your partner. Makeout sessionsor French kissing at restaurants or dinner parties, however -- that is UNCALLED FOR.
Subtle displays of affection show your mealmates that you have a happy healthy relationship and know how to make someone feel special and cared for. Blatant showings, however, convey to your tablemates that you are perhaps not mature or emotionally developed enough to know how to behave in a social setting and that you may have a self-control issue.
I can see gazing tenderly across the table at your sweetheart at a party or during a restaurant outing, taking his or her hand in yours, and telling him or her that his or her eyes sparkle like enchanted crystals. (Awwww!) However, a rough, intense, go-for-the-gusto type "beso" (think of the swallow-your-face-whole kiss that Lloyd gave Mary in the dream sequence of the movie "Dumb and Dumber" and you'll see what I mean) is OUT!
Sorry for the long post. I am now hopping off my soapbox.
What about feeding each other?
I don't think it's appropriate in many situations, but I enjoy it at casual gatherings and at casual eateries, especially if we're at a table alone.
I just want what's on his plate sometimes. There's no gazing into each other's eyes and no sexy chewing. If someone's around who seems like they'd be uncomfortable witnessing it, we don't do it.
i see just thought it less time consuming for both me as a slow typer and for others to read. ok, i will take the time to spell things out sorry
@QueenPeach... well, my man and I are still very passionate with and about each other. That said, clothes tend to stay on in public or private settings such as parties when other people are involved. I am also not a great fan of mutual tonsil massages or massive make-out seshs in a dinner party setting.
However, it wasn't entirely clear from your first post how *intimate* the 'finger-running' was, and I felt that repulsion was a rather strong word in this context. No passive-aggressiveness here, QP -- I always try to be openly and actively aggressive :-D
Let's all say it together, again: "Ettiquite is about making those we're with feel comfortable so we can all enjoy sharing the world." That means limits and codes of acceptability are differ depending on who's in the room. Where your friends went wrong wasn't in the level of the fondling, but the level of the fondling in the present company. What they could've done is to look around and see if anyone has that "oh my god! This is SO repulsive" look on their face, they should tone it down. If they're too oblivious to notice the people around them, they're necessarily not turned in to helping everyone be comfortable.
Of course, we can gently clue people in. That's our job too, if they're making us uncomfortable because it's our job too to make everything smooth and happy.
Let's not get all "rulesy" here. "Finger on arm=ok; fingers on leg=not ok." It always , always depends on the context!
I hate to say this, but were they ugly?
Seeing other people make out and do PDA is gross, but watching ugly people engage in PDA makes it hard to keep down lunch.
Yes, I know. I am evil, and I must be destroyed.
I think the range of replies on the subject is very interesting. However, I'm firmly in QueenPeach's court on this one, It's truly pathetic how people think other people are fascinated with their sex lives and include previews. They'd be embarrassed to know the talk that went on about them after they were out of earshot.
Once a couple was impressing me (they thought) with stories of their sexual escapades. This wasn't the first time it had happened, and I grew weary of it. Something snapped and I said "The only sex life I care less about than my grandparents' is yours." They never brought it up again, oddly enough.
mldubose, I hate to concur with your last line, but...:-)
As previously posted by many, etiquette should be observed. Still this etiquette has nothing to do with the subjective opinion of the viewer vis-a-vis the attractiveness of those engaging in affection.
Diners at a party or restaurant need to maintain a certain amount of decorum - whether they are "attractive," " average," or (as mldbose anoints and opposes) "ugly." Manners do not depend upon the relative and disputable attractiveness of the parties at the table.
Couples with mutual affection should get a pass on a hand tough or light kiss. Quasi-pornographic displays are vulgar at best. I've had both at my table. Guess who gets invited back. And, um, these aren't necessarily the most "non-ugly" people.
Cay
I'm awful, I know. That's why I never go anywhere.
Even after reading all these comments (this is a fascinating discussion and topic, BTW), I still can't get past the fact that Helena's guest LICKED CHOCOLATE OFF HIS DATE'S ARM! In front of everyone! That's just plain icky.
Nsolis i agree with you on the choc.
but whipped cream IN the right place yummo
mldubose- Oh I am in such agreement, we can be evil that should be scourged of the earth together.
But mldubose, are you saying that the uglies should know they're ugly, and that they're somehow ugly enough to be below the threshold of who displays PDA?
In general, I am anti-PDA. As many have said, there is a line somewhere of where it goes from cute to gross, but I always err on the side of caution. I think not doing so is tacky at best.
I don't really think this post has anything to do with food, and my favorite memory of uncomfortable PDA also had no food involved. I was actually giving a speech in front of 200 people (just a stupid, but huge organizational meeting) and noticed that two people in the front row were, umn, approaching second base. I paused, and said straight into the microphone, "Excuse me, but if you wish to continue fondling one another could you move further back so that I can't see you? Thank you." They stopped.
I'm just being mean and crazy.
I don't like seeing anyone fondle and slobber all over each other in public. Ugly or not. It's just that seeing anyone do it is disgusting, but seeing ugly people do it gives me nightmares.
Sorry...
Char9498 is my daughter. She had been logged on in my computer.
If I had been to a dinner party, or hosting one, while people are touching and kissing, I would get up and leave the room. Not to be mean or anything, but those people would probably get kicked out of my dinner party!
Touching or no touching, I would make them go to another room, no food. All they need are themselves. Seems like they only come to touch. They might only come to show their "love" while in public places. Who knows! They could touch in any other thing or place, too! Ugly or not, it is disgusting! But in a restaraunt where they are surrounded by other people gives me the thoughts of those people. The mostly might be, Aww! They are so cute together! Or, Get a room, lover boy.
"ugly people"..........seriously? unattractive can be in the eye of the beholder.........besides which....are we in high school here? wow. I'm waiting for someone to break out in a chorus of "U.G...L...Y.....you aint got no alibi".....staying home in order to avoid running into "ugly people".......even worse.
i like jlgarret's comments. it is about sharing the world.
Oh god this thread is fabulous! Thank you all!
Every time I read 'People' (yes, I read People. It only takes 30 minutes after all. Hee!) and the anonymous sources are gabbing on about how great it was that this celebrity couple of the latest nanosecond "were so into each other, kissing and hugging all night, sitting in his lap, blah blah blah" I thank various deities that I was not there. It is incredibly selfish to assume that anyone wants to be able to count your taste buds as they wander over your date's arm. Or somewhere else.
The many points about plain old manners made above are very well done. I like all your individual approaches to rudeness! If I was confronted with such behavior amongst friends, I would address it in the group, but in humorous form. For example, the exact same words "oh get a room" can be a huge laugh or a huge fight depending on the inflection of your voice. If they object to your objection, still keeping it light, make a joke about not wanting to see the conception of their future child in person. If that fails, well you just have to be rueful yet stern: Cut it out.
That's just one. I got a million of 'em...
"This wasn't the first time it had happened, and I grew weary of it. Something snapped and I said "The only sex life I care less about than my grandparents' is yours." They never brought it up again, oddly enough."
I give fair warning that I will borrow this line at my first opportunity. (roflamo)