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How to Tip on Wine?It’s already marked up so much |
Dear Helena,
I really like to drink good wine, but I don’t tip 20 percent on the cost of the wine, because whether it’s a $100 bottle or a $500 bottle, I’m still getting the same service. In any case, the restaurant marks up wine so much more than food, I feel justified in leaving a smaller tip. A friend of mine calls me a tightwad (while drinking my wine, I might add). His argument is that if I can afford to drink a $250 bottle of wine, then I can afford to tip $50. What do you think? —Spends Too Much on Wine Already
Dear Spends Too Much on Wine Already,
Unless the wine is extremely expensive, you should tip the same as you would on food: about 18 to 20 percent. Usually you get more elaborate service as the cost of the wine increases. Seth Kunin, a winemaker who has also worked in restaurants, says: “In more upscale places, there is better stemware that may be hand-washed and hand-polished, the wine is kept at a better temperature, there are buckets and coolers, and the waiter is more attentive and better trained.” With pricier wines, you’re also paying for service you get before you even show up at the restaurant. Rebecca Chapa, owner of Tannin Management, a wine consulting firm, says: “They are doing the service of holding and acquiring the wine. It’s hard to find some of these exceptional bottles. They have to store them in the proper way.”
Restaurants do typically mark up wine more than food, but you shouldn’t punish the server for that by tipping less. He or she often has to split tips with hostesses, busboys, and dishwashers. And, as Kunin points out, “the restaurant is getting the markup, the server isn’t.” In any case, the markup may not be as much as you think. “Quality restaurants have a series of markups,” explains Chapa. “Less expensive wines are marked up more than the most expensive wines, so if they’re marking up wines by the glass three times, they’re marking up more expensive wines two times, or less in some instances.”
The only time you need not tip the full 20 percent on wine is when you’re buying very expensive bottles. This is because service on wine only improves up to a certain point—about $500, according to Kunin. Above that, Chapa suggests tipping a flat rate of $100 per bottle. “A nice touch is to give the sommelier a taste of the wine,” she adds.
This all may seem unfair. If someone can afford to drop a few hundred bucks on a bottle of wine, then he or she can certainly afford a 20 percent tip. But unfair as it may seem, a tip is a reward for good service, not a form of income tax.
Table Manners appears every Wednesday. Have a Table Manners question? Email Helena.
I agree that there definitely has to be some sort of limit on wine tipping. Just as you shouldn't tip a mere $1.00 on a $5.00 breakfast, you shouldn't have to tip $200 on a $1000 bottle of wine.
That being said, I can't afford wine much less tipping on wine at restaurants, so I save the wine drinking for home when I don't have to worry about markups.
Ha, you're poor.
Yeah, I'm poor too. Knowing the limit on wine tipping is around the $500 mark is good advice for when I make my first million, I guess.
But seriously, sometimes I get a (much) less expensive bottle, and I never really know if I'm supposed to tip on it or not, so I usually err on the side of being nice to the wait-staff. It's good to know I was doing the correct thing.
diners should tip the same percentage on their wine as they do on their food. the markup on the wine has nothing to do with the server or the floor staff. end of story, if you can afford the wine you can afford the tip ...period.
diners should tip the same percentage on their wine as they do on their food. the markup on the wine has nothing to do with the server or the floor staff. end of story, if you can afford the wine you can afford the tip ...period.
I'd like to hear from some people who regularly drink bottles of wine in the $500 neighborhood. What is your practice? Or from restaurateurs/somelliers: what do people commonly do?
As for me, I drink $100 bottles on wine in restaurants once in a while, or wine pairings that add about that much to the meal, but never tip below 20% for good service. However I only order a $100 wine in restaurants that have a decent wine program and not too outrageous a markup. Service is those places tends to be excellent as well, for whatever reason.
As a side note, I onder if expectations about tipping on wine have changed recently. 5 or more years ago we got a bottle of champagne at Roy's in Waikoloa, Hawaii. It was a great deal, expensive but like zero markup over retail. Tipped a little over 20% on the total bill. We went back a couple of nights later and the waiter came up to us and thanked us for the nice tip.
I dont think you should tip the full 20% on the wine. Restaurants that gauge patrons should realize there is a price to be paid.
My guess is that our custom to tip based on a percentage of the bill is grounded in the fact that the cost of the meal is a good proxy for (1) the effort the server put into the service (higher cost usually means more courses and drinks to serve) and (2) the skill level of the server (more expensive restaurants have more elaborate service). What we really want to tip the server for is 1 & 2, and tipping as a percentage of the bill is the most objective way to do that. I think people's aversion to tippin fully on the cost of wine is because introducing wine to the mix, especially the expensive stuff, makes the bill a worse predictor of 1 and 2. This makes arguments like "you should tip on wine just like you tip on food" weak in my opinion. Although the restaurant provides stemware, the (huge) markup on the cost of the wine covers these expenses, so I feel that argument is weak too.
I'm torn about what the right thing is to do. Does anyone have arguments, on either side, that aren't based on what I consider to be weak arguments. I already agree that if a server or sommeiller helps me select a wine, i should tip fully on the cost of the wine.
I don't know how anytone is going to arrive at a rational argument for a certain percentage of tip, whether or not wine is involved. Tipping is just a custom and the percentage is arbitrary; it just becomes fixed by custom. (And occasionally changes; in the US, the norm seems to have moved from 15 to 20% recently.) People can give different reasons why they like certain numbers, but in the end are these any more than rationalization?
I think you're probably right, bibi. I guess I'll just keep doing what feels like the right thing.
I once made an argument (here or on another blog) that perhaps there should be kind of flat fee for serving wine, so much per bottle or something like that. The idea being that the wine service doesn't really change if you bought the cheaper or more expensive bottle. I know some places the wine service can be pretty elaborate, but let's say we're talking about a place with a nice wine list that's going to let you pour it yourself. Someone else responded that we tip on food according to price, even though it takes just as much effort to bring us a burger and fries as it does prime rib. That pretty much convinced me to tip on the amount of the bill, wine or no.
Keslacye, I made that comment about tipping on food according to price, and if I'm the one who convinced you to do the right thing, my work here is almost done.
Frankly, I think those who refuse to tip adequately on expensive wine because of the mark up are rationalizing. If they can afford a $500 bottle of wine they can afford, at minimum, a $75.00 tip on said wine. If they can't then order something less expensive.
This has been beat to death on this site already, but not tipping the same % because "whether it’s a $100 bottle or a $500 bottle, I’m still getting the same service" is like saying whether the entree was $10 or $50 the server is just bringing it to me. You're either a flat $ tipper (yes they exist) or a % tipper.
Thanks Marcia, I did think it was an excellent point. I have always been a % tipper, and a pretty generous one at that. As a young female who would sometimes eat alone or with other young women, I felt the need to do my part to dispel the myth of the oblivoius badly-tipping female.
So - I'm not the only person having a bit of deja vous reading this column?
Unfortunately we have to tip the same on wine as we do on food, otherwise we are made to feel like cheap, tight-fisted bastards. It's an absolutely ridiculous system in New York... to think that we have to tip 20% on a bottle of $100 wine for the fact that it has been kept at the right temperature, and served in a the right CLEAN glass, and that the server knows about the wine is insane. Shouldn't that all go without saying and be included in the price anyway??? When I order a bottle of wine, I expect the right glassware and the right temperature as a BASIC requirement... not as something that I should be grateful for and tip on. "Wow... I have a clean glass... here's $20 for that... thanks!"
I think wine should have some sort of "corkage" attached instead of a tip... a flat rate that you pay whether it's a $20 bottle or a $500 bottle.
I'm a waiter at a high end restaurant. The writer is correct, we have to 'tip out' a percentage of our SALES to the house, bus boys, hostesses, bar tenders, usually between 4-7 per cent of sales, so on a thousand dollar bottle of wine, i have to pay 40-70 dollars regardless of the tip i get. (the percentage is dependant on the restaurant's policies...mine is 5.25%). Also, if i have a table with a 1000 dollar bottle of wine, the manager will not give me other tables so that i can give the high spending table my complete attention, also assuming that my income for the night will be taken care of with that table (a 200 dollar tip will then turn into about 150 for the night...) So, you are really actually hurting the waiter's income if you stiff on wine tipping.
The industry is very complicated, and money get's passed around all the time--remember that good service makes all the difference between a good meal and a bad one, and the waiter needs to be tipped properly because the system of income is set up to foster that income. I've been stiffed many times and had to pay tip outs out of my own pocket because someone doesn't want to tip on wine....
oh and to platypus, about the percentage question, the percent was, i think, a custom for a while, but the industry has moved to give a certain income to waiters, bussers, and bartenders and the way that a restaurant is organised points towards an average amount of money. Because I work in a high end restaurant, i get fewer tables and more support, i also pay out more and pay more attention to detail. the move towards 20% (and now, 25 in some parts of the states) reflects two things: a desire for better service and the willingness to pay for it, and also an appreciation for the skill that it takes for good service to be executed .
If you go to Europe or other non-tipping parts of the world, there is a distinct drop in the level of service you receive--snobby waiters, ambivalent bar tenders and so on. When i have bar-tended, if I know i'm getting a dollar for a beer I make SURE everyone's drink is full--do the staff at McDonalds (who, in Ontario, make more hourly than a waiter) have that same attention to detail or eagerness to serve?
Tipping is not just a custom, but rather payment for good service. Period. And because a good waiter does a good job, she will get the best tables and make the most money. But that income needs to be secure, and stiffing on wine screws with someone's life.
Hate to say it, but being a waiter in European contries is considered a lifelong vocation, and the service tends to far exceed that in the US.
I find the notion that if you can afford a 500 dollar bottle of wine you can afford to tip $100 is asinine. At most restaurants you are already paying 3-4X wholesale. I find most waiters do not even know how to open and serve wine correctly, and the level of attentiveness and knowledge among sommeliers is variable at best. Also, if I tip the sommelier, am I also expected to tip the waiter on the wine?
Again, the owners are lousing up the experience out of sheer greed. Waiters are suffering due to this greed.
I find the concept of tipping 20% to open a bottle of wine near extortion. I totally concur with a fixed amount, usually $10-$20, per bottle.
well, if you have received better service in europe then i can't argue that, but it was not my experience. what i can attest to is that i know that waiters in the restaurants i have worked at DO know how to open a bottle of wine, sommelier's don't get tipped but receive a tip out (this can be variable, i think, and it's often best to ask)
but if you feel it's best to have a fixed tip, then we must also, by that logic, fix the tip per plate. what amount shall we attach to an appetizer? main course? coke? mineral water? one restaurant a friend worked at charged 12$ for a 750ml bottle of sparkling. others charge 4$. shall we tip the same on them too?
the point of tipping for service is that the service reflects the price of the meal--including wine--and that the service ought to reflect that price. I'm not saying that if you aren't getting expesnive wine you get bad service, but surely you will get the best stemware (which needs to be polished with more care) and while I always try to ensure none of my guests have to pour their own wine, i can promise you that the guy with the bottle of Shafer Hillside Select will not....
Smeagol-
You are talking about a perfect world.
I like to pour my own wine, as I find most waiters overfill the glass. In fact the best restaurants, in my view, are those that allow me to bring my own wine and charge a corkage fee. I usually add an equal amount for the waiter, and ALWAYS provide an ample pour to the waiter, usually worth more than any tip I could leave.
My last experience was at Craftsteak in LV. The manager was kind enough to allow me to bring in an '82 Grange and an '89 Beaucastel Hommage a Jacques Perrin. The waiter, the chef and the manager got full pours of wines that would have been in the several thousand dollar range. They all got hefty tips as well.
Who suffered? The MGM Grand and Tom Coliccio. Do I care in the least? Nope.
Waiters have been sucked into the tip on wine routine. If only wine were appropriately priced in restaurants, you would do far better on the volume (more people upticking on amount and cost).
BTW, I love Shafer Hillside, but would never order it in a restaurant due to the markup.
the other thing to remember is that the economics of mark ups might not make sense if you have never run a restaurant, but running a 30% wine cost is actually needed if you are going to run a successful restaurant. Now, that doesn't mean you mark every bottle up the same way, indeed, the more expensive bottles usually are marked up only double, but the restaurant business is one of the ones with the highest overhead in the retail industry. Routinely landlords charge more for a restaurant building than non, even if the chattels are owned by the business, rather than by the landlord, knowing that things like hoods cost tens of thousands of dollars to put in, even if you own the equipment. Also, you need to pay huge amounts in labor costs, with prep cooks and dish washers coming in as early as 10am to prep for dinner. Pounds of food might be thrown out if the evening was slower than thought, as a good restaurant will not use today's prep tomorrow (on some items, at least) and on top of that there is the huge utilities cost associated with kitchens. Linen in a small restaurant can run over 100 dollars per week, with minimum orders that need to be paid, even if there isn't a need that week, and, well, i could go on and on. when restaurants charge that price it is because that is the formula that needs to be charged in order for a restaurant to be successful.
i can't afford to drink really expensive wine out, so i order something less expensive--but, aadesmd, it just occured to me that perhaps the reason you don't get as good service in north america as in europe is because you haven't figured out how to tip...don't forget, a waiter always remembers.....
I really don't mean to be a jerk about this, but too many people think that being a waiter is just some easy job students and out of work actors do. It is a highly skilled job which takes intelligence to do well. If someone opens the bottle incorrectly, then they are not really a good waiter. If you get a spotted glass, then he has done his job poorly, and if providing a service which is difficult and precise isn't worth a few extra bucks, then you don't have to tip--but remember that a good waiter is worth every penny of that 20 percent, as those of us who have had bad service can attest to.
the tipping culture here ought to be used to ensure good service, not to cheap out--if you get bad service, then you don't tip. Even if it is the house or the kitchen's fault, then the good waiters will leave and get better jobs elsewhere. But remember, that if you don't tip on wine because of the principle, then that waiter actually suffers financially, and he has kids, mortgage and car payments, and so on. He is a professional, and it's like telling someone at the bank that they have to take a pay cut because you don't feel like their services are worth your money.
and one last thing, you didn't respond to the fact that if you tipped me 10 dollars on a thousand dollar bottle of wine, i would have to pay 45 dollars out of my own pocket to the other staff members. that hardly seems fair.
The way a waiter will suffer the most in a financial sense is if I don't go out to eat, or don't order wine due to the markup or the 20% tip involved.
This is not about a fee for service. Waiters have accepted less than minimum wage in this country. In Europe, the 15% service compris is built into the food, and the waiter is already making a guaranteed wage far in excess of what he or she make here, along with 4-6 weeks of paid vacation, all benefits, and basically lifelong empolyment.
It sounds like you take great pride in your work. But that should not include $200 for opening a bottle of wine that is sold for 1000.
The restaurant owner is using you to pay the rest of his underpaid staff. First, I wouldn't do it. Second, it violates fair labor practices- I know a little about this.
In no way is it the responsibility of the customer to compensate the waiter for the rip-off factor from the owner.
Actually, if you don't go out to eat the waiter will probably get a table that will tip on the wine. Let me be honest. In Canada, tipping is still usually 15 per cent, but is moving up, especially in the high end restaurants. I get tipped less than that, perhaps, once a week. On the whole bill, that is, not just the food. So, if anyone is interested in the 'norm' it is to tip on the whole bill, and that includes the high end wines. Actually, it's been my experience, that often i get tipped really really well from those who want to have high end wines. it could be the enthusiasm i show for the product, or the care i take in the service of the wine, but when you have only one table of four, and the bill is 1500, your manager makes sure that you only have that one table to serve....
i was just talking to a friend of mine in the industry, and i think i found the best way to put it while talking to him. You can't look at each item on the bill and try to attach a value to it, but the bill is a guide to the type of evening you want to have, and to the aesthetic experience as a whole. The tip is on the bill, not on the items, and ought to be treated as such. If you and a friend are going to have an evening where the bill is 500 dollars, then 100 for service is reasonable, especially when that is built into our dining culture, and ought not to be deconstructed into a list of services.
I'm not sure what waiters in europe make dollar wise, but in toronto it is normal for a waiter in a top restaurant to make 60 000 after tax. that sounds to me like 'lifelong employment' for a professional. True, it is not guaranteed, but it usually averages out.
Given the dollar, can't afford to eat in Toronto restarants anyway <GG>
aadesmd, I find it appalling you would tip so little on such an expensive bottle of wine. While I have never spent that much on wine, from what I've read I can't believe that restaurants who sell such high priced wines would employ such clumsy waiters. Perhaps you've encountered them, I obviously can't say, but maybe you should warn your fellow chowhounders to stay away from those establishments.
As for my argument that if one can afford to spend that much money on wine, I stand by it. I'm curious as to what you would tip the sommelier for a $500 bottle.
Sorry, Marcia, but to tip 100 to open a bottle of wine is absurd. What I find appalling is that a nurse would make that for 4 hours of taking care of a human being desperately ill in an ICU, or for a morning teaching 17 first graders how to read.
I would tip $20.00 for 30 seconds of effort. Again, if a restaurant wants to serve expensive wine at 4X wholesale, then the owner can afford to pay his expert waiters more to do it expertly. If a waiter upticks a customer to that 500 bottle of wine that cost the restaurant on average 125, then by golly the owner should pay the waiter himself.
I should point out here that the mark up on wine and food is about the same. A piece of grilled ahi tuna takes very little time or effort to prepare, but we have no problem paying $45 for that plate! and, remember, that that 500 dollar bottle is more like 230 or so, as most restaurants make the percentage by having lower cost wines at around 35% and higher at 50% .....
Actually in most upscale restaurants it is 3-4X wholesale. At one time, I was the wine consultant for a Wine Spectator Grand Award winner. Never would I expect the sommelier or water to get 15% of a bottle of wine that I studied, bought, described on the list, stored properly, etc.
Again, it is ludicrous for a waiter to expect 15-20% on a $500.00 bottle of wine. It no longer merits discussion.
well, wine is cheaper in the states than in canada, but i can tell you the beringer knights valley that the LCBO (liquor control board of ontario) sells for $40 is sold for $100 in my restaurant, and the caymus special selection which is 190 at the LCBO is 300 at my restaurant.
"It no longer merits discussion."
I see we've run into the Chow police. Even though aadesmd has decided we shouldn't discuss this further, I'm going to give it a go.
I'm a sommelier at an upscale eatery with a phenominally underpriced wine list. It's kept low to encourage people to buy more, better wine. We're talking SHS for under $200, Insignia, Ornellaia and Heitz Martha's Vineyard for $150. We sell a ton of good wine. The best of the best is sold every night, time and time again. People's wine bill usually far, far outweighs their food bill, due to multiple bottles purchased.
The lack of price-gouging really allows people to splurge on better wine without breaking the bank. The customer wins, the owners win. Do the waiters win? I'd say once a month or so, someone doesn't fully tip on the wine. Once a month. Out of thousands of diners. So people like aadesmd are in a teensy minority. A teensy, ahem, "frugal" minority.
We'll never change aadesmd's mind, nor people like him who decide to pick and choose which part of the bill they're going to tip on. He's right in his own mind. And he's the only person he has to answer to. We in the business hope he falls victim to Bad Tipper karma. Because however he rationalizes it in his head, that's what he is- a bad tipper.
aadesmd, I'm an RN and let me tell you, I've railed against my measly salary, along with those of teachers, cops and firefighters. However, that would never excuse me from tipping servers what they deserve. Nice try, but I don't think it's a valid argument.
You've declared that this no longer merits discussion, which, frankly, is a rather snotty thing to say because unless you're a mod here, you really have no decision in this matter, do you? Perhaps you meant to say you really have no interest in further discussion, which is well within your rights. But do not tell me what does or does not merit further discussion because it's beyond arrogant.
>>Tipping is not just a custom, but rather payment for good service. Period. >>
It's still a custom. A diner can't be arrested for leaving no tip or a smaller tip than expected. The restaurant owner may count on you getting a certain tip in figuring your compensation but if this leads you to lose money when you serve expensive wine, it's an unfairness on the owner's part. They should figure out what people normally do and base their tipping out practice on that.
i made that exact point. most people tip on the wine, expensive or not, and so things are organised based on that norm. the non-tipper is breaking that norm., and is getting in the way of the server's income. (i mentioned how she might not get as many table as usual b/c the manager wants the server to be more attentive to those tables drinking expensive wine, and hence needs that tip)
Bibi Rose, should the US Government also allow you not to pay taxes on the sales of expensive wine? Sounds like a nice idea, but unfortunately, that just ain't how it works, kiddo.
>>Bibi Rose, should the US Government also allow you not to pay taxes on the sales of expensive wine? Sounds like a nice idea, but unfortunately, that just ain't how it works, kiddo. >>
Tell me how that's the same thing. A sale is a sale and the price is fixed. A tip is discretionary. Management does not know ahead of time what it's going to be. And tip-outs are not the same as taxes. I could go on all day listing reasons why that analogy does not work.
I understand that tipping is the norm and that mangement is going to figure on that when it comes to things like tip-outs. But I'm still waiting for an answer to my question as to what the typical person who gets $500 bottles of wine tips. Can somebody who either buys or sells these bottles tell me?
Again, I tip 20% or more including wine and I would never argue for tipping less, at least for any of the reasons that have been given so far.
Tipouts ARE essentially the same as taxes. They're both a fixed rate automatically taken away from the server w/o his input and zero stipulations based on sales.
You said it yourself, "A sale is a sale". Neither the owners or the IRS care of your $3,000 in sales was from sixty Porterhouses or one '97 Screaming Eagle.
Also, I feel I've already answered your question. Guests at my restaurant frequently have a wine bill that's six or seven times the food bill and MAYBE one person a month doesn't leave a normal (15-20%) tip.
Also, as it's part of my job, I'm drinking $500+ wine and I'd be embarrassed to leave anything less than a standard tip for standard service. And I assure you, I don't have a doctor's salary. I just would never, EVER show my face again at a place I left a shitty tip for no reason.
>>Also, I feel I've already answered your question. Guests at my restaurant frequently have a wine bill that's six or seven times the food bill and MAYBE one person a month doesn't leave a normal (15-20%) tip.>>
OK, thanks. That's the kind of information I'm looking for. Sounds like your restaurant has a great wine program. That's the kind of place I try to frequent and that's why I feel it's only reasonable to tip 20% on the entire bill. (In my experience, restaurants with a good wine program usually have excellent service too, for whatever reason.)
As for this:
>>Tipouts ARE essentially the same as taxes. They're both a fixed rate automatically taken away from the server w/o his input and zero stipulations based on sales.>>
"Essentially the same?" Maybe in the sense that both the IRS and your boss have the power to take money from you. That's about it. The restaurant owner has it in his/her power to base the tip-out on money you get, not on an expected tip. Bringing in the IRS just clouds the issue. (You know what they say about death and taxes.) If the owner is demanding unfair tip-outs, that's not the customer's problem.
Hey-- I'm saying this as someone who believes in tipping heavily. telling customers that they need to tip more because they need to understand things like tip-outs is just going to alienate them. Why should they have to know about stuff like that?
To all;
I apologize for the "it does not merit further discussion" comment. I meant it from my perspective, and in no way did I mean to imply that for this board.
Sorry, invino, but I totally disagree with you. It comes down, at the end, to compensation. Opening and dispensing a bottle of $500.00 wine does not merit ten times the compensation as a $50.00 bottle of wine. I feel that Marcia is selling herself short, in that I would not give 4 hours worth of salary to someone who has opened one bottle of wine.
In terms of the comments on a "shitty tip", I will ignore them, coming from someone in the service sector, I find it despicable, in the same way it would be despicable if I stopped caring for someone in need who did not pay my bill. Quite honestly, if you are a sommelier in a high end wine restaurant, then perhaps you ought to rethink your occupation.
Sorry folks, I still feel gouging the customer is not the answer to the restaurant owner gouging you.
Sorry, but I love my job and love the ability our wine program gives people to experiment with things they may not otherwise have the chance to try. Even though you may not think so, I do my job very well and am extraordinarily passionate about wine and educating others.
Aadesmd, as I stated earlier, your opinion will never be changed based on what I write here. And you know what? That's fine. Tip whatever you want. I just want you to know that you are in a very, very, very small minority. I've been in the industry for fifteen years, and based on my experiences, the percentage of people who don't tip on wine is about 1 in 500-600.. Maybe that's becasue New Englanders are known to be generous tippers or because the place I work has more than fair wine prices. I don't know.
What I do know is that when you tip $10 on an expensive bottle of wine, your waiter is literally paying for the pleasure of waiting on you.
"Again, if a restaurant wants to serve expensive wine at 4X wholesale, then the owner can afford to pay his expert waiters more to do it expertly. If a waiter upticks a customer to that 500 bottle of wine that cost the restaurant on average 125, then by golly the owner should pay the waiter himself."
It sounds to me like you have more of a problem with the extreme markups too many restaurants now use and also with tipping in general. Outside of San Francisco, waiters get paid between $2-3 per hour. Do I think it's ridiculous? Yes. Do I think that will ever change? No. Why is that? Because waiters are doing fine. With very few exceptions, almost everyone leaves standard tips for standard service. My last year waiting tables, I took home over 70k working 25 hours a week. No, I wasn't rich, but waiting tables afforded me both the time and finances to persue my sommelier certificate.
I'm curious how you would tip on wine that was fairly marked up. If you felt you were getting a good value, would you be more likely to leave a better tip?
Also, you can always vote with your feet. If you feel you're being ripped off by a restaurant (and you probably are), why dine there again? As a wine lover, I'm sure you believe a fine meal without wine is incomplete, as do I. But I'm sure as hell not paying the $350 I saw the other day for an '05 Caymus Napa. I didn't say anything at the time, but I shot them a quick email the next day voicing my feelings about the otter lunacy of their pricing. Will it change anything? I doubt it, but if enough people complain, or better still, stay away...
I think we agree more than we disagree. I was in the same business as you, from a different perspective. The wines we sold we rarely ever incread the price. Many 1982 Bordeaux were priced the same in 1999 as they were in 1987. Many, many times our prices were lower than auction prices. So I agree with you, there is an enormous rip-off factor.
But my contention is that the skill required to help a customer find a great wine, that will go with the food, at a reasonable price, is what you should be tipping on. I have seen way too many waiters uptick a customer knowing that his tip will be based on the price rather than the quality of his advice. With a great bottle I have often tipped 100%. I have also had waiters and sommeliers try to sell me big name off vintage wines, at high prices. The 350.00 Caymus Napa will sell before the 40.00 Cahors because it is a famous name, well advertised in the WS, and, sorry to say, the waiter is going to probbly get $70.00 instead of $8.00 for doing the same act, and for leading the customer astray.
You are absolutely right that I will go to a restaurant, and tip 20% on an expensive bottle, if the prices are reasonable, storage and provenance have been good, and that there is not attempt to sell me an inferior bottle of wine at a higher price.
Also, I think you have to admit that the great majority of waiters do not have the experience in wine to justify a 20% tip, and many sommeliers are in the same boat, wether with the holier than thou attitude, or even worse with the Rachel Ray/ Andreal Immer cutsy WOW taste the fruit comments.
My best experiences- at Gary Danko in SF where the sommelier helps me find hidden treasure, Picasso in LV where the sommelier brought out the last bottle of Chave 1978, and at Troquet in Boston where the wine guy is also the owner and has provided some of the most lustful swallows I have ever experienced.
Those are worth, at times 20%. The waiter opening a bottle that he or she is clueless about? Again, no way.
A little off topic, but,
Dammit. 350 is a normal price for a caymus ss in canada. stupid government pricing. i had a customer from california laughing as he paid 70$ for a bottle of Rutherford hill merlot, and i couldn't understand why, as it retails here for about 28. he told me that at costco (we can't buy wine at anywhere than the government liquor store in ontario...with set prices...even if you have a restaurant) they sell that bottle for like 16 or something. and with the US dollar where it is, he was understandably bemused (he was corporate so he didn't really care) Actually, it took months and months before the american wines were droppng at all when the canadian dollar shot up last year. I couldn't believe it when i was in texas and saw cali wines selling for 8.95 that are 20-30 in the LCBO (like menange e trois, the coppala wines &c.)
The sad thing is that for us to get a really nice bottle of California wine here we have to pay through the nose. My friend from california couldn't believe that restaurants normally sell berringer knights valley for 100+ here, and that is a reasonable mark up. He would buy a bottle to drink with his burrito.
Smeagol, not the Caymus SS, but the plain ol' Caymus Napa for $350. That's one of the biggest laughs I ever got from a list.
Ouch. yeah it's usually about 120 on most lists here...
(and i think that's overpriced for the wine, frankly)
aadesmd, thanks for the apology, but I must take issue with your reference to me. My salary is totally irrelevant to this discussion, as is how I choose to spend it. That said, I did write that I've never spent $500 on wine, frankly because I don't have a palate that would appreciate it and I don't have enough interest in wine to develop one. Indeed, to me it would be money ill spent. Regardless, my belief stands. If one can afford to spend a lot of bucks on wine, they can afford a decent tip on that wine. As others have said, is it the server's responsibility for the mark up?
Recently I spoke to a friend who is on waitstaff at a high end steakhouse in Boston. He had a party of four who ordered a typical dinner (apps, entree, pot/vegies) and an excellent bottle of wine. They gave a $100.00 tip and my friend was happy stating at $25.pp tip I'm OK with that. He also receives a 'commission' on the bottle from the restaurant.
Very interesting discussion - a lot of good arguments on both sides. I guess what you all agree on is, that the tip is (the major part of) the income of the service provider "waiter". It's the service charge part of what you pay for eating in a restaurant. What you are discussing is, if the service you get can possibly be worth more than what an engineer, a doctor or a teacher earn in the same time. Can somebody possibly be that good at serving food and wine to earn $50 for the 10 minutes it takes to serve the first glass of wine from a bottle? No - not unless he recites Shakespeare while breakdancing on the high rope at the same time. But how much time do you spend at that table in that nice restaurant? How many people are serving you all evening? What do they really get per hour? Yes, of course it seems unfair that this insignificant pop and pour adds $50 to the tip but so do the caviar (they don't even have to cook it) and the truffle in your jus. Shouldn't we focus on the service when tipping? Somebody who throws me a slice of pizza get's a dollar or two - no matter if the pizza is $10 or $100. Service staff who attentively serve my food and make sure that I get what I want, the way I want it, at the appropriate time, while making me feel comfortable and respected deserve to charge 20% for service. Which they share according to those, for us customers, mysterious rules (can somebody enlighten us a little - that would be even more interesting than the actual topic on discussion). I guess I have to agree with whoever said that if you can afford to go out for a nice dinner you have to include the tip into the calculation. People that argue that certain high price items add an unjustified amount to the service charge could be looked at as stingy. Maybe they just regret choosing that pricy restaurant at all? If you don't want to tip $200 for a 3 hour dinner arranged by two waiters, a somelier and whoever is involved behind the curtains then don't go to a place where the bill will be $1000. (please excuse my sub par english - it's not my mother tounge)
heh i did outline some of the sharing above, but i'll do it again. most restaurants have a 'tip out' so that the bus boys, food runners, bar tenders, hosts, managers, and house get a cut of the tips. usually the tip out is on sales, not tips, and is usually between 4-7% of those sales. in my restaurant, the food runners / bus boys (one in the same in my restaurant) get 1.5%, or usually around 15-30 dollars from each waiter. the bar tender about 1%, and the 'house' around 3%. (we don't have a full time sommelier).
We do hours of prep and clean up, and an average per hour for a waiter is about $30, I would say, but I have heard of restaurants (the holy grail!... www.harboursixty.com )_ where 50$/hour is the norm. Keep in mind, though, that most waiters will work about 6 hours / shift at the most.
But who is to say that a waiter doesn't deserve the same as a doctor, teacher, or engineer? What is the rational for that argument? Being a good waiter demands skill and experience, and, actually, self-directed learning (unless you have had great training, i guess...my wine, food, and service knowldge was all self taught). A GP doctor just follows a formula, how is that worth 200k / year? My point is just that people underestimate the difficulty of providing high level service.
Smeagol;
Your last comment is just grossly unfair. "A GP doctor just follows a formula". It also reflects a level of ignorance that is uneducatable.
One, there are very few GP's that make 200K. In fact, I bet some make less than you do opening wine and keeping glasses full.
Two, I will say that a waiter doesn't deserve as much as a doctor, GP or not. You screw up, and someone gets bad service or a stain. Even a "GP", people die. That "GP" has spent 4 years of college, probably finished in the top 2% of his class, spent 4 years in med school and 3 years in residency, awake every third night taking care of sick humans. Not the type you see, ordering wine, but those found in the street, drunk, dirty, vomiting, coughingand not caring if the steak is overcooked.
But more than anything, your comment tells everything about your construct of what you do, and why. It will give me an entirely different perspective as I drink my wine.
how does a doctor (gp or not) not follow a formula? I can break it down for you if you like (with my years of university training):
Symptom occur; doctor knows (through, not research or insight, but because they read it in school) that said symptom points to certain illness, and then different books tell them to do something particular about it (like give treatment). Now, of course, some doctors might have wonderful talent, and do research and make breakthroughs of their own during practice, but I don't think that is the norm. And, of course, not every diagnosis is easy to make, but it all comes down to how much attention they pay to details.
Now, i'm not downplaying the importance of doctors, but rather, trying to emphasize that all aspects of our society help it run to our satisfaction. Could we survive without waiters? sure we could, but we could also survive without doctors. We did for most of our human history.
Further, I think that a good waiter or sommelier needs to study just as hard as someone becoming a doctor to do a fantastic job. Would I personally rather have a doctor or a sommelier on a desert island, well, of course a doctor, but because we have the luxury as a society to embrace all kinds of experts I think that it is arrogant to suppose one kind of expert is more important or more worthwhile than another type. I celebrate all kinds of passion, and would rather know a passionate expert on 1980's post-punk rock than a dispassionate and cynical doctor--I think one is clearly more admirable simple due to such passion.
Now, understand that my politics are not of the norm, but I think that everyone ought to make the same as long as they are doing a good job, doctor or janitor or singer. I think that some professions are grossly undervalued while others are overvalued. Why do we reward some and punish others for completing services that we deem necessary? I'm not trying to start a discussion on politics, but I think that these comments like 'a waiter doesn't deserve as much as a doctor' are offensive to all those people out there who don't make as much as doctors.
Sorry, but my comments stand.
hm. hard to come back against a non-retort. maybe it'll work too if i try it. here goes:
Sorry, but my comments stand.
there we go! I'm right now! Whoohoo! Too bad I wasted all that money on my philosophy degree...
This topic has been beat to death, both here, in other threads, and even more so in the more wine centric boards.
However a couple of points. Most restaurants don't mark up wine 3 and 4 times retail, and especially not on the higher end wines. Higher priced wines tend to be marked up a lesser percentage than low priced wines. The industry norm, at least here in DC, (and yes I can point to restaurants that have obscene mark ups on wine, but I can also point to some where the markup is wonderfully low) is about 2.5 on most bottles, and 1.7 to 2 on more expensive bottles. But there is quite an opportunity cost to restaurants to keep good bottles of wine. For a restaurant to have a good cellar, there is the cost of the wine (which can be considerable), space and cost for proper storage, cost of proper glassware, breakage, etc. And that doesn't even take into account the twit who sends back a bottle of $200 wine just because he can, not because the wine is corked or otherwise flawed.
I am of the school that tips on wine just like I do on food, but then I seldom buy wines that cost over about $200 in restaurants. (I can bring just as good a wine from my own cellar since corkage is prevelant here in DC, but that is a different thread.) As they say, if you can afford the wine, you can afford the tip. You don't mind paying $3 for a cup of coffee in a good restaurant, but at $15 a pound (and that is very high, especially at wholesale like restaurants get it) that works out to a mark up of about 12 times the cost of the coffee. (When I worked in restaurants, we got about 60 servings from a pound of coffee.)
>>> . . . but I don’t tip 20 percent on the cost of the wine, because whether it’s a $100 bottle or a $500 bottle, I’m still getting the same service. In any case, the restaurant marks up wine so much more than food. <<<
True, but it's the RESTAURANT that gets that markup, not your server, and servers not only depend upon tips, the IRS has ruled that, under some circumstances, tips can count toward the minimum wage. Furthermore, after years of lax enforcement, the IRS is not cracking down on those who under-report their tips on their 1040.
Limiting your tip because the markup is high only hurts the waitstaff, while the restaurant gets all the $$$$$
My family recently had a special occasion dinner at a world-class restaurant. The food bill came to approximately $2000. The wine bill came to over $4000. Would a tip totaling $1300 have been appropriate? I am really interested in hearing people's opinions on this, as well as their reasoning.
V-cubed, I hope you not only had some amazing food and wine, but also excellent service which warranted your standard (15-20%) tip.
Zin, did you mean "now" and not "not" regarding the IRS?
Invino- I cannot complain about the service or food. Both were top-notch. I would prefer to give as few details as possible, though, in order to get opinions based solely on the numbers...
(Whooops!)
>>> Furthermore, after years of lax enforcement, the IRS is not cracking down on those who under-report their tips on their 1040. <<<
This should read: ". . . the IRS is NOW cracking down . . . "
Sorry for any confusion, and thanks to invinoteresverde for catching my typo!
VVVindaloo . . . .
There are exceptions to every rule, and after "a point" a straight percentage tip becomes (IMHO) a bit ridiculous. I switch to a flat rate, a solid amount rather than a percentage. (Think the way NYC cabs charge a flat rate into Manhattan from the airport, rather than running the meter.) It just seems to make more sense to me.
So, I would say no -- on a $6,000 bill ($4,000 of which was wine)l, I wouldn't tip a straight percentage on the total $6,000.
There are questions I have, however, before telling you what I would tip on the wine portion of the bill. Was that for one bottle? Two? Twelve? How many people were at the dinner? How many times did the wait staff have to change out the glasses -- was it just once or twice, or did they change glasses each and every time a new wine (and there were 36 different wines) was served? Etc., etc., etc.
These types of things would clearly mean more or less "service" on the part of the staff, and the more service, the higher the tip.
Cheers,
Jason
I figured that these issues would come up eventually, so here is some more info:
We had 7 different wines, and a total of 8 bottles. We were 7 people at the dinner, and the glasses were changed for each new wine. Two of the bottles were identical champagnes, served consecutively, in the same glass.
OK, in this specific instance, and presuming that the restaurant did not automatically add the tip into the check (as some will do with parties of six or more), I'd tip -- wait, was there a specific sommelier/wine person, or did the "regular" waiter do the wines too? -- I'd probably tip a total of $1,000 or so.
Twenty percent on the food = $400 to the waitstaff serving the food. Changing out the glassware seven times is a lot of work, so at least $600 there, up to $800 if the sommelier helped select the wines, etc., etc., etc.
But that's me. YMMV.
Cheers,
Jason
I am amazed that smeagol would say that waitstaff service in america is superior to europe. European service by and large is much more professional. That statement was not nearly as laughable as his waiter vs doctor comments. I'm not knocking him for going to college and becoming a waiter. Its a very lucrative job if you can find the right place. BUT to argue that the value to a society of a waiter is equal to a physician shows a bizarre narcissism/delusions of grandeur on his part.
I still tip a flat fee on expensive bottles of wine. I also overtip on cheaper meals or when others splitting a check undertip. Its what I do and I'm very comfortable with it.
BTW where are these restaurants without gigantic wine markups, because i seem to be missing them.
how is it narcissistic to say that one profession was equal to another? I was not saying that WAITERS are as good as DOCTORS in particular, but rather saying that all elements of society and all professions are equally admirable so long as they are done with passion and executed professionally. This, I think, means that we can stop comparing salaries and asking 'is it worth the same for bla bla bla as for saving lives' This might be contentious, but is hardly narcissistic.
Once again, I have never eaten in the top european places, but all of the bistros I have been in had rude, abrupt, interruptive, and at best, mediocre service, while some restaurants I've eaten in in Toronto (mind you, these ARE at a higher relative price point than in europe) have service that is almost psychic. The difference, I would say, i that i HAVE had amazing service in north america in restaurants with a lower price point, at times, but have never had that pleasure in europe. perhaps i was in the wrong bistros, or the wrong countries..most of my time was spent in eastern europe, with minimal time in western, but all i can attest to is my experience (notably rude was in the cafe's in Vienna)
chrisinroch,
When I ran a restaurant in Santa Cruz, CA, our markup off the wine list was a flat $5 over retail.
Cheers,
Jason
chrisinroch, if you are ever in Washington DC, make sure to stop in at Dino in the Cleveland Park area. Dean's wine list is huge and the pricing is exceptional. And to make it even more reasonable, all wines $50.00 & over are 33% off on Sunday and Monday. At his prices, that means you can get some wines for less than you would pay for them at retail.
ZIN, I'm sure you were the exception in the bus.
Does anyone know if Per Se automatically add 20% on top of wine like they do for dinner?
I'm not sure where 20% tip on wine came from, but I've always heard 5-10% tip on liquor in a restaurant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipping#...
Having working in restaurants, etc., all I can say is that I NEVER heard that . . . and it's a sure way to tick off bartenders and servers everywhere, while they rack their brains trying to figure out what they did to pi$$ you off . . .
Having working in restaurants, etc., all I can say is that I NEVER heard that . . . and it's a sure way to tick off bartenders and servers everywhere, while they rack their brains trying to figure out what they did to pi$$ you off . . .
It's utterly ridiculous that a server profits MORE on a bottle of wine poured than the original PRODUCER does. Run the math: producer MIGHT get 50% of wholesale price ($X). Server wants (typically) : $X times 3(resto markup) times 20% = 0.60X (60 percent of original wholesale. It's time servers took a backseat to producers. I'm not in a restaurant to pay your salary - get a raise from your boss, or a share of HIS profit on that wine bottle.
First things first: why are you made/upset/taking it out on your server? Does he/she set the prices on the wine list? Why not tell the maitre d', the manager, and/or the sommelier how you feel -- ALL OF WHOM have more say so about restaurant wine list pricing policies than your (all too often) minimum wage server . . . .
Let's say the Winery Suggested Retail Price for Cache Phloe Cellars Napa Valley Chardonnay is $30.00. That means the "case one wholesale" price (before any discounts or post-offs) is $240.00. The FOB price from the winery to the wholesaler might be $120.00; it also might be $160.00 (more typically), but let's go with the lower figure that you cited ("producer MIGHT get 50% of wholesale price"). So the winery is taking in $10 per bottle, from which all costs, wages, etc. must be paid.
The wholesaler re-sells the wine to retailers and restaurants at $240/case (presuming no discounts). So the wholesaler is taking in $20/btl, $10 of which went to the winery, and then all costs, commisions, wages, etc., etc. have to come out of the remaining $10. (Don't misunderstand: it's the wholesalers that are making the BIG BUCKS in this equation.)
The retailer is not a discounter, but sells the wine at WSRP. So the bottle is on his shelf for $30. The first $20 goes to the wholesaler, and he, too, has $10 from which to pay his employees' wages, rent, electricity, etc., etc.
These days, a restauranteur charges -- depending upon location, the specific wine in question, and so on -- anywhere from "triple wholesale" to "triple retail" for the bottles on his wine list. Personally, I find both to be OUTRAGEOUS, but let's presume the same example you cited, and go with "triple wholesale." So, the wine list has the bottle of Cache Phloe Cellars Napa Valley Chardonnay for $60/btl. He pays $20 for it ($20 X 3 = $60), and now has $40 BGP, from which he pays wages, salaries, utilitiy bills, etc., etc.
OK, so -- yes -- the server (if you tip 20% on the wine) will get $12 (20 percent of $60 is $12).
So -- presuming GOOD service -- what DO you typically tip your server? Do you tip a flat 20 percent, as some here do? A flat 15%? Or do you pull out your calculator, and figure out one percentage on food, a different percentage on the wine -- don't forget to subtract the sales tax . . .
And if the restaurant charges "triple retail" ($90/bottle), and the server gets -- gasp! -- $18 . . . again, could you explain to me how that is the fault of your server?
Addressing each of your questions in turn - I'm not "taking it out" on (waitstaff). Rather I think (after reading many notions about "value" contributed by perfectly poured wine) that waitstaff need to recognize who truly contributes value in a bottle of wine and (I think) should be getting a larger share of profit (the producer). It's a matter of perspective - waitstaff carries the bottle from the rack to my table and pulls the cork, and fetches clean glasses. Does that mean they are automatically entitled to a gratuity that exceeds the producer's profit ? I say no. They ARE entitled to a gratuity - but lets not imagine I'm somehow depriving waitstaff of something they are rationally entitled. Rather, I'm arguing they (often) have an irrational sense of entitlement when it comes to expected gratuity on costlier bottles of wine.
My approach (and my proposal) is this: (presuming GOOD service) I tip the server according to their service. More for complicated service with more people at the table, (eg: multicourse tasting menus paired with individual wines) less for simple service (eg: 2 people each order an entree, involving nothing more than taking an order and carrying a plate). And yes, I tip for wine service, according to what was done - but for simply opening a bottle of wine for 2 people, that tip will have an upper limit.
Joey,
I find your post truly interesting, indeed fascinating. I spent 35 years in the wine trade, several of which were spent working for California wineries. And I have NEVER heard anyone tie a server's gratuity to the producer's profit. I'd love to understand how you got to this perspective:
>>> Does that mean they are automatically entitled to a gratuity that exceeds the producer's profit ? I say no. <<<
Now, obviously, you are NOT tying it in to the profit. Keep in mind that, in my example above, the winery SELLS the bottle to the wholesaler for $10. But that is NOT the profit! Out of that $10 bill received by the winery, you have to pay out the cost of grapes, the cost of glass, corks, labels, barrels, machinery, utilities, salaries and wages, etc., etc., etc. So you're not tying it to profit; you're tying it to gross revenues. The actual profit on that bottle for which the winery receives that $10 bill may be 10 percent ($1) or less ! You're not suggesting you'd only tip $1 on this example, are you?
Do you extend this to the other items on your table? Do you feel the server should not be tipped more than what the rancher receives for his or her cattle in gross revenues per pound? What about the produce grower? I'm not trying to sound ridiculous, although I can see how this might -- bit I really AM trying to understand how you came to this perspective. After all, to continue your post above,
>>> It's a matter of perspective - waitstaff carries the bottle from the rack to my table and pulls the cork, and fetches clean glasses. <<<
All the waitstaff does is carry the plates from the kitchen to the table, and hopefully place the right plate in front of the right person . . .
TIA,
Jason
Simple- the producer/grower does a lot more work and contributes much more expertise putting the (generally recognized) value (quality/flavor composition) into the bottle than the server does by simply serving it. Wine is about many things, but most people agree terroir & technique play pivotal roles in what you experience at the table. The server.... hmm... fungible. So once a bottle departs the vineyard, what value-add is possible? Transportation, storage, marketing.... anything else? Does it have to be killed, skinned, butchered, cooked ? Does a method of preparation or presentation need to be chosen ? Nah. So let's stick to the first three. Transportation.... here enters the wholesaler who takes his cut. Storage.... the restauranteer gets his cut. Marketing.... often the poorly serviced opportunity, and truthfully most wines are "self marketed" by knowledgeable consumers seeking them out. But in my experience, the most effective marketing has been done by (1) getting on the wine list to begin with (restauranteer/sommelier), or (2) the original producer, one-on-one with the consumer via media or face-to-face wine tasting. Gratis. Or more accurately.... somehow covered by the original price FOB winery loading dock. VERY few servers can give much more than a "good stuff" comment when asked about a particular wine - because they have quite limited experience, if any at all with a particular wine. (And truthfully, I've only ever met TWO (actual) sommeliers who knew their cellar well enough to steer me from one Burgundy to another according to my preferences. Yeah, those guys deserved a good tip on the wine alone.) So who's missing in these three value-add opportunities ? Uhm... who was it? Oh yeah, the server. They DO carry the bottle to the table. Oh, and the glasses, often without checking to see if they are actually spotless. And they open the bottle, which could be tricky. Not sure I'm seeing the comparative value-add opportunity there.
Re. other items at the table.... I generally like my cow killed, skinned, butchered, cooked, and accompanied by a tasty sauce. Some of which is actually done in the restaurant's kitchen. And the gratuity (used to) reflect on the entirety of those things done in house - not just the server carrying a plate to the table. Side work done by servers can contribute to what's on the plate, or whether the plate is clean, at least. The bottle of wine is a complete product before it ever arrives at the restaurant to be resold.
Oh... and the primary point of discussion relate to all this is that wines vary in price by 10fold or more (on a winelist) - not so the steak choices on the menu. Consequently people begin to scratch their head and ask "Gee.... did my server do 10 times more work by pouring this expensive wine?? Did he contribute 10 times more value somehow?? Was he NICER than he would have been pouring a cheaper wine ??" Yeah... odds are the $46 tenderloin DOES have a more sophisticated preparation/presentation than the $28 sirloin.... but it's STILL not 10X, and it IS directly related to aggregate skill in kitchen.
Lest you think me too harsh I'll report that I do tip on wine. But my decision to treat my family (who actually helped me accomplish my success) to a lavish wine does not in any fashion bear on the server's tip beyond what it would be for an ordinary wine - unless he/she is pouring a multicourse wine tasting. I give gratuity for restaurant service - not charity based on my spending preferences.
So tipping is all about value-added? Hmmm . . .
>>> And the gratuity (used to) reflect on the entirety of those things done in house - not just the server carrying a plate to the table. Side work done by servers can contribute to what's on the plate, or whether the plate is clean, at least. <<<
The waitstaff generally tips out the "bussers," the people who wash the dishes, etc., etc. They don't tip out to the chef -- s how does that apply to "the entirety" of the house? I mean, clean dishes are important to be sure, but isn't what the chef and the line cooks more important?
Joey, I am NOT trying to argue with you, At all! What I am trying to do is understand your position, not to challenge it and/or make you change it. But how then DO you tip on wine? You write that you don't tip for a "lavish" wine beyond what you'd tip for an "ordinary" bottle -- so how do you tip? What IS an "ordinary" bottle?
YES -- the cost of opening up a bottle of $10 red is the same as it is to open a $100 red; the same forwidely disaprate bottles of whie and sparkling . . . so how DO you determine the right amount to tip the server? For the sake of this discussion, let's say it's a dinner for two where the food costs $100, the bottle of wine was $50 . . . and how would that differ if it was $200 and $150?
Thanks in advance for your response.
Yeah, frankly I'd love it if waitstaff got more of a salary, and chef's incentive pay were tied to tips. Maybe it is, in some places. The collaborative requirement for earning a bonus often yields more teamwork and better product.
Everyone here, diners and waitstaff included, hope for an easy answer where none exists. It's meaningless to calculate numbers without any allowance for what exactly a foodservice pro did at your table, and how they did it. And the reason is- we should be tipping (leaving gratuity) for the actual service, not the price of our hamburger. It's important to pay close attention to what your waitstaff does. Did you order drinks by the glass or bottle? Did they bring your drink poured from the bar or did they offer you a taste at the table before pouring your glass to confirm you would like it? Were they prompt or distracted? Did they hustle and successfully juggle 4 tables while keeping everyone happy or did they leave you waiting with an empty glass while your food got cold and you wondered if they already found other employment?
Understandably, waitstaff want to promote a guideline percentage to firm up their earnings expectations. Diners want to understand a guideline percentage to simplify the experience and to reassure themselves they are doing the right thing. These each undermine the purpose of gratuity to some extent. Diners need to pay attention to how waitstaff accomplishes their job, and shoulder the responsibility of tipping appropriately.
Considering your specific example and without any information on what or how the server might have accomplished his or her job I would ask this : What would you tip a bartender for preparing 4 cocktails at the same time, each a different preparation? Pouring a bottle of wine is moderatly simpler (my own personal view, not offered as any sort of rule). So whether pouring a $17 (retail) Ode de'Hermitage Stockton CA (earthy, hints of barnyard) or a true northern Rhone with much higher pricepoint.... I say watch what your server does and how. But from my perspective, it's not gonna be much more involved than a cocktail prepped by a good bartender. The maddening variability (for waitstaff) is this- that service is "worth" more to some than others, and there's nothing wrong with that. I wonder if I've answered your question. As an example, last nite at a late dinner our waitress hustled to attend 4 tables, with 14-16 diners total during the hour-fifteen or hour-thirty we witnessed. She promptly took orders, kept everyone informed about the status of their order, poured BTG orders at table after confirming taste, checked on everyone appropriately, advised about her experiences with various menu items and how they relate to what most people expect, steered my date toward a better bar deal, and generally worked industriously to promote an enjoyable experience for everyone. There was nothing particularly sophisticated about the experience but she contributed to it's enjoyability. Food totalled about $45, wine glasses about $50 and her tip $20.
In your examples, -assuming- similarly enjoyable service I'd probably tip 16%-20% on food and $8-$12 on each bottle.
Joey;
Thanks for bringing some logic and sanity to this post. I cannot comprehend, in my wildest dreams, how a server feels that the diner owes him or her 20% on an expensive bottle of wine that he has opened, usually poorly,and served me a sip. I always ask that the wine be left on the table, and I pour my own, since the glasses are usually overfilled by the server.
I tip $20.00 per bottle, no matter what the cost of the wine. Somestimes this is 50%, other times it is 3%.
When I think that the profit that a winemaker such as Bo Barrett or August Clape makes on their work of art, and some kid with an attitude pours it once, and they both earn the same amount for that bottle- it approaches criminality.
Joey, thank you for your response. It IS much appreciated.
You and I are not all that different in the long run. We both want good service; we both think wine list prices are (for the most part) outrageous. I just think it's important to remember that it isn't the server who is ripping off the patron with such outrageous prices.
I, for one, REGULARLY speak with sommeliers and restaurant managers about their pricing policies. The sommelier at Nob Hill, for example, complimented me earlier this month in my wine selections, saying that I'd picked out two of the "best buys" on the list -- wines with the highest quality and "lower-than-normal" markups. He wanted to come out and meet the person who made the selections (I'd placed the order with our waiter, NOT with the sommelier), convinced I was someone in the trade. I used to be, but made it a point to say to him that one shouldn't have to be in the wine trade to select a great bottle that didn't cost an arm-and-a-leg!
For my part, let me add that all of the above examples presume good service. Great service is worthy of special consideration; mediocrity, or worse, is also worthy of special consideration, but in the opposite direction. Obviously an evening with a multitude of different wines, with multiple changes of glassware, and so on, is worthy of extra consideration than one round of wine by the glass and that's all . . . .
To answer YOUR question:
>>> What would you tip a bartender for preparing 4 cocktails at the same time, each a different preparation? <<<
Obviously this depends upon how good the drinks were (!), how promptly they were made, etc., etc. But -- seriously -- the same point can be made: is a Martini (for example) made with the well gin any more difficult to make than one with an ultra-premium label? No, but it IS priced higher -- just as the bottle of Château Mouton is priced more than the bottle of Mouton-Cadet. Yet the straight percentage tip would indeed be higher for the "top shelf" Martini compared to the "well" version.
I would tip the bartender more (also, BTW, this resumes I'm at the bar, and not at a table -- where, in fact, I'd be tipping the waitress) if the Margarita is being made with fresh "everything" rather than a mix, for example. Obviously the former requires more work. More work = a better cocktail = larger tip. So I might tip as much as 25 percent for a great cocktail, as opposed to 15 percent for a simple shot of vodka. This is all conditional, too, on WHERE I am . . . the fancier the bar (think Vegas, as opposed to a dive somewhere), the more you run into the inflated price scheme that opened this discussion vis-a-vis the markup on wine lists!
Thanks, again, for responding to what probably seemed as my bothersome questions . . . it's given me some serious food for thought. Not about the winery owner's profit margins -- that's all nonsense, and not -- as I pointed out above -- related to profit at all! Although I don't necessarily tip a flat rate on the wine, as Alain posted above, I can and do see the logic in that. (After all, as I wrote above, "the cost of opening up a bottle of $10 red is the same as it is to open a $100 red . . . ") And I obviously agree that GOOD service should be rewarded over poor or mediocre service.
However, let me assure Alain that -- with your average waitstaff on the one hand, and Bo Barrett on the other -- Bo is doing just fine thank you very much, and the only thing "criminal" in that equation is just how much money a) Bo is worth, and b) how much they charge for Montelena Cabernet . . . .
Honestly, I think your careful distinction between gross revenue per bottle and gross profit per bottle amplifys the point I'm trying to make. I used a rough number most people could understand to start the discussion without too much quibbling over details.
If we really look at a refined profit model the "injustice" done to artisanal wine makers becomes much more clear. Many of the world's most prized wines are made by small families who have passed this knowledge from generation to generation on their small patch of land. These people are risk takers, they must accept whatever Mother Nature gives them and try to craft a product of distinction using instincts, learned agricultural skills, and a desire to express their philosophy of winemaking. Year to year, the wins and losses vary and these people can and do suffer real economic setback when circumstances are beyond their control or ability. In good years, and with their -unique- skill they can be very successful, and their one product that year can last and improve for more than a decade. And how did they get to this "coveted" occupation? My own personal investigation reveals that many (Australian, for example) wine families were real pioneers, literally walking into the wilderness with unparalleled vision and, generations later, realizing their dream to make a truly world-class product. How DOES that compare to the value created by a sever pouring the bottle that one time? (as Aadesmd succiently states).
Does the winemaker's success somehow mean they deserve less profit? The best of these are the very wines commanding high prices (in restaurants) that are the main subject of our discussions - and the bottles for which it becomes critically important to consider what your gratuity reflects, relative to the value you are experiencing. I think most of us have accepted that wine service does earn some amount of gratuity for waitstaff - the main unresolved points being what are it's range, and guidelines?
The simple fact these bottles appear on a restaurant wine list (a country and continent away, and across an ocean) is recognition in itself that the winemaker was successful- not that the wine buyer imparted any particular value to that bottle's creation, or that the server somehow added value (equal) in measure. This thing alone - the winemaker's vision, experience, skills, and execution are what I (personally) value in the product, so I scale my gratuities relatively.
I do consider though (after this discussion), that other people may experience wine differently than I. So for some I suppose it is possible that the "ultimate" experience of a wine is that Someone Is Pouring It For Them, ie: the experience of Being Waited On. For those, an individually crafted wine is nothing more than a status symbol (I suppose) that augments their primary experience. And if that's the case- they should tip not for the wine, but perhaps according to their need to feel important, or beneficient, or whatever- and that would be fully supported by a straight percentage. I can find no fault with their needs.
For me though... I do experience August Clape's product as a work of sensory and philosophical art, a success crafted in cooperation with Nature, and a dammed good agricultural product. (I did grow up on a farm.) So I -personally- favor giving him greater gratuity- even if that's only by recognizing his efforts, and his peers, in these discussions.
See, NOW you're losing me . . .
Keep in mind that we ALL bring our own perspectives to the discussion. Mine is no more valid than anyone else's -- we're all equal. Mine comes from 35+ years in the wine trade, and starting at a time when the most expensive California Cabernet was $15, and Château Pétrus sold for $20.
So while I WANT the producer/vigneron to make a profit, I have a hard time with obscene profits! Many wineries in California are owned by someone other than the winermaker, and in those cases, it's often the owner making heaps of money while the winemaker is a salaried position. No one has been able to justify to me the $300 price tag for "Chateau Cache Phloe" -- outside of "obscene profits."
>>>So for some I suppose it is possible that the "ultimate" experience of a wine is that Someone Is Pouring It For Them, ie: the experience of Being Waited On. <<<
I have never met anyone, Joey, who feels that way. But then again, I don't separate the "pouring of wine" from the "serving of plates." If I'm dining out, I'm dining out -- I don't critique the servers' role by category: time to bring menus; time until taking order; time to bring bread; time to re-fill water glass; the placement of the entrées on the table; the fluidity with which the cork is pulled and wine served; etc., etc., etc. Either the server does a great job, and plays a role in making the evening memorable -- greater than the sum of its parts; the waiter does a good job (as expected), and has little impact upon the evening either way; or the individual has a negative impact on the night's events.
Wine is fermented grape juice. It's GOOD grape juice, but it's chief role (for me) is to compliment a meal. Since, for some reason, people are now bringing up Auguste Clape (with an "e"), let me say that I love his wines, and have several vintages in my cellar. Phenomenal wines. But how does Auguste CLape make more money by you tipping your server less? I mean, unless you are you mailing him contributions . . . And IF you buy Clape's wines off a restaurant wine list, how are you supporting Clape? Aren't you, instead, endorsing -- even supporting -- the restaurant owner's excessively high markups? And how does tipping your waiter -- a lot, a little -- have any affect whatsoever on the profit the winery makes? the profit the wholesalermakes?? the profit the restaurant makes???
But you are (IMHO) wrong when you write:
>>> The simple fact these bottles appear on a restaurant wine list (a country and continent away, and across an ocean) is recognition in itself that the winemaker was successful. <<<
This is not always the case. Some may be, to be sure; others however . . . Many wines on wine lists are there because of availability; many are there because of price; and many are there because of "hype" (not the same as success).
I can understand, as I said above, the idea of a flat rate per bottle. As I previously wrote way up in this thread, the cost to the restaurant of serving one bottle of wine is no different than serving another bottle. That's a (relatively) fixed cost. But I can't understand how the size of the tip one gives a server affects the profits of anybody . . .
My suggestions that you need to try to frequent restaurants that have more modest wine mark-ups. In Houston, we are seeing a number of really good restaurants that are known for their wine selections (e.g. Catalan, Kova) that present wines at 20-30% over retail. This is great idea and makes more expensive wines affordable in a retaurant setting.
If you frequent these types of restaurants, you will not feel bad about tipping.
Russ
http://vintagetexas.com/blog
>>> good restaurants that are known for their wine selections (e.g. Catalan, Kova) that present wines at 20-30% over retail <<<
Sadly this is simply NOT true in most locations, in most restaurants.
That said, perhaps with the present economic situation, markups MAY become more realistic.
I was going to come up with some intricate formula including percentages etc but I then realized the crux of the issue! We cannot convince people to tip well if they are not normally inclined to do so, so aadesmd I hope that pleases you! The point is really simple. As my father was very knowledgeable (and in the restaurant industry) I feel that he instructed me well, if service is good then tip well. On his program that meant 30% wine or not. If you decide to tip cheaply then all the power to you, but I know from a life in service that youre likely to get some crappy service. And my friend word will spread, so that 5-10% your saving you will find back in ways you never dreamed. Good luck! I will say that with his generous tipping my day had some of the best service in our town, those waiters would have done anything for him, and for us it was totally worth the $
I don't have a problem with paying servers fairly for the work they do. Servers have a demanding job and they should be paid accordingly. But it seems like whenever someone in the service industry tries to explain tipping it often follows the pattern of:
The restaurant is screwing me in some way so you, the customer, will make up for it. I guess my question is "Why is the restaurant off the hook?"
The article states:
"Restaurants do typically mark up wine more than food, but you shouldn’t punish the server for that by tipping less."
Agreed the server shouldn't be punished. But this statement leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I would rephrase it to say,
"Restaurants do typically mark up wine more than food, and therefore should share some of that markup with their staff so that the customer isn't expected to pick up the slack"
Restaurants pay their server's less than minimum wage and force the server to pay a set "tip-out" percentage to the other staff whether they receive a tip or not. These are really crappy situations. But the customer wasn't present when the terms of employment were negotiated. The restaurant created these rules not me.
I propose to have all the restaurants add 20% to all their menu items. This 20% would be split among all the staff members in some kind of fair agreement. Tipping would no longer occur.
"But then what would be the motivation for a server to give you good service?" you ask.
Well if a manager noticed a pattern of bad service they would discipline the server accordingly. It seems to work in most other industries.
>>> The article states:
"Restaurants do typically mark up wine more than food, but you shouldn’t punish the server for that by tipping less."
Agreed the server shouldn't be punished. But this statement leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I would rephrase it to say,
"Restaurants do typically mark up wine more than food, and therefore should share some of that markup with their staff so that the customer isn't expected to pick up the slack" <<<
I cannot speak for the author, but in the absence of a Federal Law that would REQUIRE restaurant owners to share a portion of the increased markup on wine (and let's not forget the markups on cocktails, soda, coffe and tea are even HIGHER than on wine), how on earth would you ever enforce that????