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Table Manners
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Doggy Bag DilemmaIs saving leftovers ever a bad idea? |
Dear Helena,
The other night I went on a date at a Thai restaurant. My date and I couldn’t eat all the drunken noodles, so I asked for a doggy bag. When I dropped my date off, she didn’t kiss me. I got paranoid it was because I had asked for a doggy bag and she thought I was cheap or somehow not classy. Do you think this might have been the case? Is it ever not OK to take a doggy bag, and why? —Waste Not Want Not
Dear Waste Not,
Your paranoia was actually astute intuition. Doggy bags can make a bad impression, and just to be sure that you don’t make one, when dining with people you don’t know well, you shouldn’t ask for a container for your leftovers.
At business dinners and lunches, as Francesco Barbera, a lawyer in Los Angeles, says: “You need to project power and authority, and there is something vaguely weak and humiliating about taking a little doggy bag home from a restaurant.” Barbara Pachter, a business communications and etiquette coach, says: “You’re there for business. You shouldn’t be concentrating on your food.” She adds, “And sometimes the bag leaks.”
Forgo the doggy bag on dates too—at least for the first three. Barbera, a seasoned dater, says: “A doggy bag suggests a certain degree of frugality and practical-mindedness that is contrary to the mood you’re trying to establish.” Patti Feinstein, a “dating coach,” agrees: “Taking a doggy bag makes you look cheap.” A doggy bag sends the wrong message about your lifestyle as well. Nell Waters, a massage therapist in San Francisco, says: “It speaks to the likelihood that he is more of a bachelor than I perceive; perhaps he never cooks.”
Doggy bags also present practical obstacles to seduction. It’s hard to lean in for the good-night kiss if one of you is clutching a carton of chow mein. And the aroma of lukewarm spareribs filling your car on the ride home isn’t very sexy.
Table Manners appears every Wednesday. Have a Table Manners question? Email Helena.
That has to be one of the silliest things I've ever read. I would more look down on a man who would walk away from a table of uneaten food! So what if he doesn't cook or is frugal, if that's a first date deal breaker I think this guy lucked out!
I think that the answer to "waste not, want not" comes from the Rules philosophy of dating- it may get you married but you may not like who you end up with. If someone is so shallow that the deal breaker was your doggie bag, would you really want to be dating that person anyhow? This should be a non-issue! If you want a goodnight kiss, just put the bag down! Also, if you're so concerned about power, you definitely are not projecting it by worrying about doggy bags:}
I agree with not asking for a doggy bag at business functions, because there is a certain "persona" to project, but all bets are off on dates, as far as I'm concerned. My husband appreciates my practical mindeness and frugality! With all the people going hungry in this world, what a shame it is to waste food.
What a load of BS. I wouldn't want to be with someone who thought less of me for taking home the leftovers, as I'd think less of him anyway for wasting food.
"With all the people going hungry in this world, what a shame it is to waste food.
Amen to that!
As a college student one of the great things about eating at a thai place is that there is usually enough left over for lunch the next day! I too would hope to find a guy who isn't wasteful (and apparently comfortable enough) to ask for the leftovers.
I wouldn't say the words "doggy bag" though, just ask for a box.
Maybe she wanted to be offered her "share" of the leftovers, even if you had paid for the meal?
Agreed with everyone else. If a first date had a problem with me taking home the leftovers if they didn't want them, then a good early riddance to bad rubbish!
Some of the suggestions in the article are absurd, too, such as appearing as non-cooking bachelor. I love cooking and that topic of conversation is bound to come up on a first date, and likely before that point, provided it's not a blind date.
I guess I'll be the voice of dissent here and say that I do agree with most of Helena's response.
I think the doggy-bag, in formal situations, is a bit of a no-no. It comes off as cheap (especially when someone else is paying!). It might seem like you ordered too much so you could take half of it home and score two meals in one shot. If you're worried about wasting, my advice would be to simply gage your hunger in advance and order less food if you're not feeling particularly ravenous right then. Besides, no one looks stylish (or ecological) carrying around greasy Styrofoam. So I think if you're trying to impress, it's probably best to avoid it altogether.
That being said, in more casual settings, like with family or closer friends, I'm a huge fan of taking leftovers home. In fact, it happens quite frequently that my eyes are bigger than my stomach and I find myself in the dilemma of having to decide if what's left of my order is worth taking home. I usually come to my conclusion by evaluating the worth of what's on my plate (plain rice or potatoes? Forget it!) and how well it will reheat later (Soggy French fries or anything with yogurt sauce on it? No way!)
I think it also depends on where you are, geographically and culturally. When I first started dating my now boyfriend, he thought I was a bit of weirdo for taking home left overs (for which I'd paid, incidentally). I guess it's just not as common a thing in Quebec. In fact, a friend once told me this anecdote about how she’d once been served two pieces of filet mignon at a fancy French bistro because each piece on its own wasn’t big enough for one order. She couldn’t finish it all and asked for a box, and the waiter scoffed and downright refused to let her take it home, saying, “that’s just not done here.”
It should be pointed out too, that in America portion sizes tend to be on the bigger size of humungous, so the prospect of bringing half your plate home because you couldn't finish it might come up more often. I’ve noticed too that when I go to Greek restaurants, the portions tend to be enormous, and I often see people taking food home from there.
ITA with all but Mainsqueeze.
In fact, I may add this to my list of "How to tell if you're a keeper" for friends who still date. Not that there is a right or wrong answer, but that both daters come up with the same answer.
And this for me would not be a date breaker, ever.
I do agree about business lunches and dinners that perhaps asking for leftovers to be packaged may send out the wrong signal, but I also disagree on the date situation. Now certainly I would think any guy that liked me would allow me to savor my good food on the date and appreciate it enough to want to take it home. In fact I will go so far as to say that a really good date would even put my leftovers in his fridge for the evening and then remind me to take them with me when I left. Maybe the guy didn't get a kiss because he had garlic breath or she just wasn't into him? I would like to think with portion sizes so large and the number of obese people that not overeating and saving good food for later would be more appealing than eating more because you can't take it home due to some etiquette rule. I agree with all above if that was the reason goodness knows you don't want her anyway, but I think there was probably something else that made her decide not to opt for the kiss.
do you think there's a difference between a guy asking for a doggy bag and a girl doing the same thing?
i agree with helena when she says, "doggy bags CAN make a bad impression." she's not saying that they 100% will, but that the chance is there. interesting topic and some really great comments!
eefoodgeek- you raise an interesting point about sex of the doggy bag askor. I actually think that women it is probably much more acceptable because women are seen and expected to eat less. Although I think it should be acceptable for a male to do the same and wouldn't look down on it. You raise an interesting point. I wonder what males think of other males they are eating with asking for food to be packaged, do you think he would be considered less manly?
I went on a date once with a guy who couldn't finish his meal. He got a doggy bag and gave it to a homeless person on the street. Needless to say, I was very impressed. I think this is a great way to not waste food and to avoid puncturing the fantasy atmosphere of a first date with the banality of taking home a doggy bag.
Once I went on a double date, and one of the people asked for a doggy bag for their spaghetti. We were trying to get into a cab, and my friend with the doggy bag rested said bag on this dude's car for a second while he was fumbling with his wallet. The dude threw a FIT, picked up the spaghetti, and threw it at my friend. My friend sorta ducked, but a bunch of the spaghetti hit him. Think of all the problems this doggy bag caused! On the other hand, we still talk about it to this day, and we would not have had this memory to share had he not asked for a bag. On still the other hand, if he had been on a FIRST date with his lady love this entire episode could have been real awkward.
This seems totally crazy. I guess maybe I just don't move in such judgmental circles, but unless I was going out afterward (which would make having leftovers awkward), I would always take home the rest of my meal if I enjoyed it and it's reheatable. Why waste food? I think using the term "doggy bag" is gross and weird, though. I just say "can you wrap this up for me?" and have never had any restaurant say no. However, the more upscale the dining, the less likely there are to be leftovers, I've noticed, because the portions tend to be smaller.
Doggie bags are unique to this continent – definitely a cultural thing. They should be limited to casual dining and used by families and friends, not dates. What a turnoff! The only exception would be it you really have a BIG dog and just happen to have a BIG leftover of a BIG steak. In Europe they think we’re nuts to even think of doing this.
I went on a date (can't remember which number, but it was our second meal together) to a Thai restaurant with a guy who asked me if I was going to take my three pieces of tofu home. I said no, and he got my leftovers wrapped up with his. I was kind of appalled. It's one thing if you take home your own food, but taking home your date's food? There needs to be a certain level of intimacy or involvement before you can pull that off and not look like a total cheapskate.
If someone is going to take home leftovers from a date - especially a first date, they better have a good line ready like "tomorrow when I eat this at my desk, I'll be remembering what a great meal we had tonight." Of course I hope the OP offered to let his date take the food home with her (yes, even if he paid for it...in fact especially he paid for it).
She probably just didn't want to kiss you. I sort of doubt it was "doggy bag"related. I used to date a guy who was really wasteful when it came to food, money (even mine), everything. Prior to dating him I don't think I ever noticed whether a guy brought left-overs home or not but now I actually think it's a good sign. Now, I live in Japan where portions are small and it's a non-issue but I still appreciate the fact that I am with someone who would never waste food. Still, I think that there are guidlines one can follow to avoid looking cheap. Offer the leftovers to your date first, don't take theirs home unless they offer them, don't take left-overs home if you are going to a movie or concert afterwards and don't be compulsive about taking every last grain of rice on your plate or a tiny bite of something when there is nothing else left-over.
I will preface this by saying it's been a while since I was on a date with anyone other than my husband. However, I think getting your leftovers boxed might lead your date to believe you aren't that interested. After all, you probably won't ask her to go for after-dinner drinks if you are carting a box of food around. It definitely implies you are going straight home!
i find it very strange that the article suggests that you should try to present yourself to a date as not being practical or frugal. I think those are a couple of the traits i actually seek in a partner.
"In Europe they think we’re nuts to even think of doing this."
No, they do not. On the contrary: One of the main complaints the Europeans have about Americans is that they are too wasteful.
Except for business dinners or lunches, I do ask the waiter to wrap the food up for me. I do not approve of wasting perfectly good food.
Sometimes I wind up giving the food to a homeless person. This has happened several times, actually.
If a date (well, this is moot, because I am married) ... or anyone... were to judg me because I ask for a "doggie bag", well, good riddance, then.
I have a friend who always takes a doggie bag home, a habit he acquired after spending time in third-world countries. I find the habit very attractive, indeed.
To Foodwine's comment disagreeing with andy deridge about Europeans thinking we're nuts: you're both right, in part. Andy is right in that Europeans NEVER take partially eaten meals home from restaurants, they find the idea disgusting. But they also get served much more reasonable portions, so there is rarely a problem of leftovers. As one who sends a great deal of time in Europe, let me tell you that it is truly a delight to eat a fine multi-course French meal and find that when it's time for dessert you can actually enjoy it without feeling bloated, because each course was just the right size.
You are right in that they do look down on us for our wastefulness, and part of that wastefulness manifests itself in serving humungous portions in the first place, a phenomenon that leads to two things that most Europeans find repugnant: obese Americans and doggie bags.
As for the dating aspect, as a long-time serial dater (now happily married) I have to agree with Miss Manners (and yes, I know this is unacceptable to the PC crowd), but what right-minded women SAY they admire in a man is not necessarily what gets their hormones flowing on a first date. Those reactions happen on a level far below the cerebrum, and appearing to be a penny-pincher at that early stage in the relationship will turn off far more women that it will turn on.
I just had dinner in one of my favorite (not very casual) restaurants. As the food gods of the restaurant would have it, we got more courses in front of us, than we had intended to eat.
When I had my unfinished delicious entree (two thirds of the plate left) in front of me for a while, the lovely waitress asked me, spontaneously, if I would like to have it "wrapped up".
I did, indeed, and happily enjoyed it the next day for lunch.
Our waitress had also wrapped up two desserts, that traveled well.
Classy.
Too often you have only two choices, either get the leftovers scrounged up in a doggy bag or leave the stuff behind for the cleanup people to scrape off the plates. (That is, if you don't want to fatten yourself up.) Once, when I was at a Machine Shed restaurant in Des Moines, Iowa, I tried to take some leftovers home from a restaurant which, to my horror, served me a five-course lunch with outsized portions. I was convinced that I was going to turn into a fat pig that day. Needless to say, I tried to heat up the leftovers later on and they did not turn out very well. I vowed never to eat another meal at the Machine Shed Restaurant; so far, I have kept that vow. The people who run such restaurants should be ashamed for assuming that their customers want to be fattened and for wasting so much food.
I do agree that in a business setting asking for leftovers to go is inappropriate. As a NY'er I always take my leftovers and give them to the first homeless person I see, I've rarely traveled more than 5 minutes carrying my "doggie bag". If this was a deal breaker on a date I'd be glad to rid of that person sooner than later.
I live in Europe where taking home a "doggy bag" is not even an option not that anyone would consider it. Partially this comes from the fact that portions are more appropriately scaled to what a person could normally eat at one time. I am embarassed when eating with friends or dates in the States that ask for a doggy bag. There is also the issue of possible food poisoning from leaving it out before you actully get home and put it in the refridgerator.
To eastmontjv: You make some excellent points against the use of a "doggy bag". The folks who run restaurants that serve out-sized portions should listen. Unfortunately as long as the customers don't mind or even enjoy the outsized portions, there will be "doggy bags".
Too bad that the problems with obesity and related health risks can't spur the restaurant people to meet with their customers and find out what they want or need.
I have absolutly no problem taking a "doggie bag" home after a date or having my date ask for one.
Actually I once went on a date with a man who asked for a container to put his left overs in and then when we were walking home he gave the container to a homeless woman on the street. He recieved major brownie points there. This entire conversation is so outdated feeling though---especially for a group of foodies! I couldn't imagine not wanting to take the left over yummy Thai food home.
As a woman, an American, and a person who has spent many years living in several countries in Europe, I must say that BobB has hit the nail on the head with every characterization he has made. I will also admit to having brought home leftovers on a few occasions in my lifetime- but always from casual, American "family-style" restaurants where they actually intend to serve you enough food for tomorrow's lunch. As someone who often works long hours, the convenience of bringing an already-prepared, packed lunch to work can be too tempting to resist at times. Bot for the most part, I am somewhat turned off by taking food home from restaurants, and would not dream of doing it outside of the U.S. or in certain company. Brief illustration: I once threw a huge Christmas bash for all of my friends. Spent weeks planning an extensive menu (mostly cocktail/appetizer items, not a sit-down dinner) and days preparing the foods. One of my good friends shows up with her fiance- he's carrying a doggy bag from dinner. Not only had they wrongly assumed that they should eat beforehand (the invite definitely mentioned that there would be food, but I guess the 8 PM start time threw them off their feeding schedule), but they actually brought their leftovers to my party! Maybe I am one of those shallow women much-maligned in these comments, but I would be mortified if my fiance could not pass up a doggy bag on the night we were on our way to a party. I mean, come on!
Would only do this in a somewhat established relationship . I went on a blind date a while back we were so caught up in conversation, and maybe a little too nervous to eat, that over half of my meal went un-touched. I wouldn't have probably taken the food with me but thankfully he asked to continue the date with drinks at a nearby bar which would have made it too difficult to carry around a doggy bag.
The homeless idea is somewhat touching, however smacks a little of "here are my half eaten leftovers, kiss my shoes now you lowlife"
Yes i would think that if i had the similar experience to one poster, and had a date ask to take my tiny portions of leftovers home with them, my weirdo-radar would be alarming.
But with people i'm close to, and there are large portions, sure, why not. Plus anytime i have any dish that is accompanied by steamed rice, i take the majority of it home, which i'm sure appears enormously cheap to the waitress. My weird little doggy, for some reason, just loves the stuff. She is on a limited diet, and it is one of the very few things i can or for that matter WILL treat her to, and as it is a large component of her regular food in the can, i can let her indulge guilt free !!! I don't let her do table scraps at all.
This could segway into another post, people who feed their dogs from the table while guests are over. Mine's never allowed near the table.
Now, I may not be able to talk about things from the female perspective, but I would wonder if my date *didn't* take home leftovers, if there was more than maybe a few bites. I mean, it's perfectly good food, and I would be more concerned about someone wasting it, than thinking "oh, they're cheap" (even when I'm not the one paying!) As stated above, it's the "waste not, want not" philosophy. As for the business meeting, I think it would show good business sense to understand the value of leftovers. After all, it's less you'll have to spend on food later (for that matter, if you're spending less on food, you've got more to spend on your date later on!)