Table Manners
Secondhand Barbecue Smoke
Can vegetarians demand meat-free environments?
Dear Helena,
A big group of friends and I were trying to figure out a bar to go to. The obvious choice was Zeitgeist, a popular San Francisco bar with a giant outdoor beer garden. But I nixed the choice, because I’m vegetarian and that place always stinks of hamburgers from their outdoor grill. My one friend and I got into a big fight about it. She said, “But you used to eat meat and not mind the smell. You make everybody’s life difficult because of your personal choice.” Yes, it was harder to decide on a bar because of me, but I feel that because the first-choice bar made me gag, that was a legitimate reason to not want to go there. Is it OK for vegetarians to insist on meat-free environments, even if it means distressing nonvegetarians? And what’s the best strategy for getting your way without alienating your friends? —Ooh That Smell
Dear Ooh That Smell,
Gagging is unpleasant. But as a vegetarian, you can’t demand that your dining companions give up meat, barbecue aromas, bouillon cubes, leather shoes, Jell-O, or anything else that came from animals just because it doesn’t agree with your personal philosophy. To do so would be not unlike an atheist insisting that his believer friends give up God. This is not an overstatement, considering how strongly some meat eaters feel about a good, juicy burger.
Whether or not you, as a vegetarian, have the moral high ground (and there are many convincing ecological and health arguments to be made that you do), you’re not going to win any converts by making a fuss. You will only look high-maintenance and preachy to your meaty friends, and they may even think twice about including you in future get-togethers.
Mark Rifkin, a Baltimore dietitian and former animal-rights activist, says, “Constantly harping on the negative is counterproductive and generates bad karma. It helps activists vent their frustration and anger but does nothing constructive in terms of behavior change.” So instead of scorning the beer garden with the grill, or the hamburger joint that someone else suggests for dinner, research another bar that can accommodate a large group, or rave about a restaurant that does a great garlic eggplant with peanut sauce.
If your ideas are shot down, you may have to put up with the meat smell. Think of it as a sacrifice you’re making that may actually help animals in the long run. If you want to win people over, it’s better to make vegetarianism look easy, rather than a drag. Kim Sturla, a vegan and cofounder and director of Animal Place, a sanctuary for abused and discarded farm animals in Vacaville, California, says, “I have gone to places like Sizzler and I just go to the salad bar.”
Another thing to consider: If you’re rigid about people not eating meat around you, your militancy may be serving an unmet emotional need for attention or control. If that’s the case, you’ll have better luck making an appointment with a psychotherapist.
Table Manners appears every Wednesday. Have a Table Manners question? Email Helena.
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I'm vegetarian, and I think that was way high-maintenance. It's ok to demand a restaurant that serves veggie food, but to veto a place because of BBQ smell is just ridiculous. What, are you going to ban streets where there are hotdog carts??
The world is out of hand and people don't need anymore ideas. What ever happened to putting a ban on radio when those poor folks picked it up with their fillings? Some people need more "When I was your age" stories.
Heck lets ban backyard/porch barbecuing... that veg family next door may not want their meat chastity corrupted by a smoking grill... this is silly.
this one of the problems with the so called stories posted on this sight, since when did vegies spend their time going to bars, i would have thought they would go to a salad bar and get sick from ambient e coli or something.
i love this sigh and considering all of the topics covered, i am suprised that a vegi would even want to post a story or for that matter even look at thiss sight.
hi, i'm a vegetarian (for nine years now) and i love chow.
yes, i don't eat meat. yes i love food. it's ok.
i agree with this article. there are restaurants and other places out there with absolutely no vegetarian options and it's kinda rude for a group to go to one when they've got a vegetarian in their midst. it's also rude for a vegetarian to demand that everywhere they go be a vege-utopia.
i was reading yesterday on vegan lunch box about bringing meals/snacks that fit your dietary needs when in a group situation. that way you can stick with your group, eat something you want to eat, and no feelings are hurt.
when going out to eat, i try and remember the diversity of vege-friendly options on the menu. my friends and family are willing to get vegetarian food once in a while, but it's best to go somewhere where everyone can get what they want.
it's important to respect the people around you, and not to expect them to go by your dietary standards. vegetarian, kosher, various allergies.... there's a lot of them out there. and it's possible to coexist.
I think it's valid that a veggie wouldn't want to go to a meat-smelling place, just as it's valid that as a non-smoker, I might not want to spend hours in a smoky bar. Carcinogens aside, the smell of a thing or place can make a huge difference to your enjoyment. But there are tactful ways to broach the subject to make someone sound less high maintenance and more like your friends are doing you a favor by honoring your preference. When all else fails, you can nicely bow out. One more thing-- IMHO, suggesting that the writer has psychological problems after raking him/her over the coals was a low blow.
I'm a happy carnivore, but I wouldn't have minded changing restaurants somewhat for a veggie friend. I think the veggie's beef (ha!) was that this place had a smoky, everwhelming odor of succulent flesh ready to fall from the bone...mmmmm. Anyway, yeah, I could see the point of looking for a restaurant with a bit less of a meat focus. But insisting on a totally meat-free environment is just being impossible.
Personally, I hate the odors of cooked seafood, especially the rank stuff you find at certain places adorned with scarlet crustaceans. (I love sashimi, go figure. Seafood is ruined when you apply heat.) So when the gang is planning a night out, I usually at least speak up to eliminate icky chain seafood restaurants. If they want to go someplace that geatures seafood, I'll put up with it as long as it's higher quality.
It really depends on your friends, the occasion, your feelings, etc. I'm veg, but fortunately most of my friends are as well. My family, however, is not, though certain members are more veg friendly that others. Back in college, I would complain, but I realized if I complained all the time, my non-veg friends are never going to come to veg-friendlier places with me. (which the good friends opened up to).
But yeah, if it totally grosses you out, like at a place with fish or smoke, stay home, or hope they mature and respect you.
I think they should compleatly demand a meat free enviorment. How nice would it be to have people like that out of our restaurants!
I'm not much of a meat eater besides fish...My boyfriend and I were invited out to dinner with some friends, and some of their friends we didn't know very well. We went to a place called "House of Prime Rib" in San Francisco..none of us had ever been there before. It was supposedly the best prime rib ever..blah blah blah...there was NOTHING else on the menu..EXCEPT for prime rib. I was horrified. Watching everyone eat it around me was nauseating, there was NOTHING for me to eat besides the spinach stuff that was the side dish..and there was barely any of it. So...I sat politely, watched everyone eat..and starved to death throughout the entire slow dinner...while explaining 5 times why I "wasn't hungry"...and as soon as we left, we stopped by the grocery store for some fruit. It is soooooo unfair for restaurants not to have things for multiple eating preferences.
Being repulsed & gagging because of the SMELL of meat being cooked is a tad bit overboard, because some people are disgusted by the smell of grilled onions & garlic just the same. As long as there's edible food for everyone's tastes...there shouldn't be a problem. It COULD be worse than just the smell of burning flesh!
I think I would be as horrified about eating at a vegetarian restaurant, as a vegetarian would be eating at a steak house.
Definitely you're risking simply not being included in future outings - who would want to - not because you're vegetarian, but because you're making it difficult for your friends. I like the idea Helena proposed about coming up with an alternative rather than just nixing the idea your friends offered.
I think also, given that you specified that the place was a "giant outdoor beer garden" is really going too far - if you were cooped up indoors with a smoky grill you might have a valid complaint, but come on, it's outside, just ask your friends to sit at a table that's not near the grill...
You appear to be very high maintenance. In the first place, you were going to a bar - which leads me to assume mainly to drink, not to eat. And an outside bar at that.
I think you were way out of line to request a meat free environment. As many have said, there are many cooking odors that some people don't like. Deal with it.
I understand that it is disgusting for vegetarians to be around meats and cooking of meat and such. However, it is going a little overboard demanding for meat-free environment. And please don't compare this to cigarette smoking and such. Being around meat is not hazardous to one's health.
And beyond that... if you can't stand meats.. don't go to a BBQ place.. there are plenty of restaurants you can find without overpowering scent of meat. What's next... are we going to demand for a driving free town because we don't like the smell of car exhaust?
I think that, in a group setting, raising an objection because someplace is unpleasant to you for some reason is valid, particlualrly if the idea is for everyone to enjoy themselves. I think it's just good manners to ask if everyone is comfortable. I loathe secondhand smoke, for example so I don't hang out in bars for that reason and my friends know that. Some of my friends hate loud music so we avoid places with dance clubs attached. We respect each other's preferences and try to compromise.
That said, I don't think you have a right to ask that a place be compeltely meat-free if you're in a group that includes meat-eaters. You should agree on a restaurant that has something for all of you. There's lots of room for culinary compromise in between a vegan restaurant and BBQ joint. The various types of Asian cuisine are great for this since they tend to have many veggie-friendly choices but also have meat dishes.
But if you simply cannot stand the sight of someone eating a chicken sandwich or pasta bolognese, you need to either get all vegetarian friends or stop having meals with your omnivore ones. I say this as a former vegetarian who still has veggie friends that I dine with and cook for.
Might as well pass legislation for vegetarians/vegans to be considered handicapped and then force all restaurants to become "accessable". Pretty soon all CHOICES can be more than a privilege and becomw law.
Int the early 90's I was a vegetarian for three years. It was tough to eat out then even in Santa Cruz. I was happy to be a minority due to the belief in my decision and I learned a valuable tool- Get in where you fit in.
Why is it that most vegans and vegetarians are some of the most environmentally right on and socially aware and accepting of everyone and everything except smoking and feeding on lower life forms or smoking chunks of lower forms?
Give me a break.
@yellowfoodie
"And please don't compare this to cigarette smoking and such. Being around meat is not hazardous to one's health."
Well we're not just talking about being around meat; we're talking about being around smoke. I can see how someone (even a non-vegetarian) could object to someplace that had a lot of bbq smoke, and my understanding is that this type of smoke does emit carcinogens.
http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/2005...
It may not be exactly the same as cigarette smoke, but there's certainly a possibility that it's hazardous to your health on some level.
And some barbeques put out a LOT of smoke - the kind you can smell for blocks away.
Personally, I'm a vegan and non-smoker, but I don't mind going to places where people are smoking and / or grilling meat. But I guess I can kind of understand where the OP is coming from too.
I don't have a strong opinion without having actually been to the bar in question, and knowing the group of people involved in this situation. If they're good friends, I don't see that it's a huge deal for the OP to say "hey - the BBQ smoke there really bugs me; can we go somewhere else?"
@hooliganyouth - I don't know if you can make generalizations of veg*ns from the individual who asked this question. People are vegetarian for different reasons, and (just like non-vegetarian people) vary in terms of their levels of social / environmental awareness, as well as their level of obnoxiousness. Of course the ones who are pushier about it are more noticable than everyone else.
Damn! I really hate it when the neighbors are BBQing and the smell of smoke scented by beefy goodness wafts over the fence, through my yard, in the window, in to my office, up my nose, travels up my neurons and hits the pleasure receptors in my brain, and those damned neighbors haven't invited me over to sate my carnivorous appetite. Truly insensitive, I am going to have to march down to city hall and demand that some kind of law gets enacted!
god forgive us..all we do is complain
ps - I will say that while I wasn't even a big fan of bbq before I became veg (maybe I just didn't have the right stuff), the smell definitely does hit the spot and bring back old memories sometimes, especially on warm summer nights. Not to say I'd want to hang out right next to a huge grill, but to me, at least, the smell is somewhat comforting from far away.
when i cook a special food like a barbaque i feed the neighbors on both sides of me..it would be cruel not to..
Where do you live, debbbiiiii? I'll pitch a tent in your front yard. ;-)
Ridiculous to be horrifed that a rib place didn't sell anything else!
And I don't think it is at all unfair that they don't have multiple choices for people's preferences, why should they, they make a killing on their speciality. If you don't like hwat a place serves, don't go there.
Really if I was going to somewhere with a name like Rib House and I didn't eat meat I would have thought it would be common sense to check they had a veggie option!
I wouldn't be horrifed if I went to a veggie place to find they hadn't catered for meat eaters, whats the difference? Or hey, should indian restaurants sell some pizza in case people don't like indian food?!
And to the OP, its fine to say you don't want to go, for whatever reason. Its all about how you say it and how often you say it.
I think the question was how to get what you want without alienating your friends and the answer was suck it up and do what the majority wants. Doesn't seem very helpful.
I think if you have a number of vegetarian friendly bars and restaurants that you like, just suggest one instead. You don't need to be high maintenance about it. Just say well that is one choice but I was hoping to maybe go here or here. No one needs to even know why you don't like the first bar suggested. If you are out voted then don't go this time and maybe you can get what you want next time. Its about compromise not getting what you want every time. If you are willing to compromise your friends will too.
OK to request a different bar because the smell of the first suggestion made you queasy? Yes.
OK to "insist on meat-free environments" for the whole group because your dietary choices? Not so much.
If the waiters slapped every incoming customer with a piece of veal and the forks were made of chickenfeet, maybe...
That sounds just as reasonable as me demanding that you stop being vegetarian because it offends me, and it scares me that one day we might have to live in a world where eating meat is illegal.
Eating meat is (in-arguably, without question) causing animals to suffer for our own pleasure. It's entirely hypocritical to be against "animal cruelty" then go and eat a chicken sandwich at McDonalds. In eating meat, I understand and accept that for me to be able to do so, some poor animal had to suffer.
I don't think eating no meat is a reasonable or wise choice, but eating a small amount of meat is both healthier, and will contribute to making the world a better place in many ways (vs eating a lot of meat).
How the hell is it ridiculous to not be surprised that a place with a name like "House of Prime Rib" wouldn't have anything besides meat?? HELLO...have you ever heard of SIDE DISHES?? When you go to BURGER KING...they HAVE salads, and other things that are not BURGERS! Yes they are making a killing, and I'm not saying they should change their menu..but a complete stranger made the reservation, nobody asked anyone else if it was ok with everyone else, no one had been there before..we just went there...the funniest part is that everyone who ate the prime rib said it sucked! It was a miserable atmosphere as well. Is it REALLY common sense to try & find menus of every place you're going to eat before you go there?? That's the ONLY scumbag place I've seen without anything edible on the menu! NOBODY was happy in that place. Everyone was too busy shoveling dead cow carcass into their pie holes. I'm not saying that every restaurant should be required to have vegetarian dishes JUST for vegetarian people...but please...they had the spinach stuff, and I couldn't even order a side dish of just that...it came with the rib meal! AND it was peobably 1/4 cup of spinach anyways.
if there's special needs in the group, then yes, i would try and find an example menu somewhere.
burger king's vegetarian selection is pretty gnar... if there is any other choice, including impromtu grocery-store-item picnic, i'd choose that instead.
in my family my father can't eat legumes, my sister can't eat grease or dairy and i'm a vegetarian (my mother has no special needs in her diet). luckily we live in the portland area where plenty of choices abound......
there was the momentous dinner after christmas when my mother'd been given a gift certificate for outback steakhouse... i lasted all of ten minutes in that place before i had to leave. it completely overwhelmed my senses and i couldn't breathe, so i ran outside with a red face and tears streaming down my cheeks... i don't know what really happened.
I use to be a vegetarian. As long as I could get veg eats wherever we went, I was fine. I think this problem comes up more with vegans.
For all you vegans out there, please try to kindly educate your friends on the finer points of veganism. Don't assume that carnivores understand what it means to be a vegan. Most of them assume that vegetarian = vegan. If they do mess up and make dinner that has something in it that you don't eat, don't have a cow (haha). Chances are, they didn't have any clue.
I'm not a vegetarian, nor do I ever plan to be one. I am one of those people that fels passionately about a big, juicy burger. Plenty of reasons, none of which I'll get into because I don't want to sound preachy.
Which is exactly what nixing the bar-with-a-beer-garden was. So you had to SMELL meat. Please. Yes, it may smell bad to you. Cigarette smoke smells bad to me, but I'd never insist that all my smoker friends sit in the non-smoking section just because of that. Unless the smell alone was enough to make you violently, truly ill (and not just wrinkling your nose and claiming to have a headache), then you're imposing your own issues on everyone else.
Rude.
I love a burger, but there's some places I don't want to go either because of a strong smell - say a strong "bad" burger smell, or a place that cleans their grill with brillo at the end of the night while you're still there...
Anyway, I think it's fair to suggest alternatives, just like with any other set of preferences. A matter of approach, as perfectly summed up in that last paragraph:
"Another thing to consider: If you’re rigid about people not eating meat around you, your militancy may be serving an unmet emotional need for attention or control."
How has nobody mentioned that Zeitgeist has, hands-down, one of the best veggie burgers in San Francisco? Full of backyardy-goodness.
Ergo, that is not just beef smoke, some of it is coming from meat replacements for veggies just like yourself. Yes, the smoke is irritating, in that it is BBQ smoke, not in that that the smoke is used to cook anything particular. If anything I would think the cigarette smoke would bother you more- I know it does me.
I often move tables- sometimes multiple times in a visit- to get the ideal wind-Smurf-BBQ orientation. Such is life. None of my vegan friends would ever turn down a trip to Zeitgeist owing to the BBQ-- pregnancy is the only excuse!
Vegetarianism is a personal choice and if the rest of your friends have not made that decision, suggesting an alternative that would suit everyone's needs is the correct thing to do. Majority rules in my group of friends.
And, I'm not a fan of the House of Prime Rib in Sf because quite frankly, I prefer to shovel dead cow carcass into my piehole at other establishments, but uhm...They do have fish. And mashed potatoes, baked potatoes, creamed spinach, and salad (which does look like cafeteria food btw, but it's not meat). I know that having one measley non-beef entree on the menu is pretty lame, but their menu only has 7 entrees - the other 5 being different cuts of prime rib and I'll say that this restaurant definitely pre-dates the whole pc movement. I, personally, google a restaurant's menu, or at least look at it in the window before I eat there and maybe someone who is vegetarian should do the same to make sure the restaurant they are about to give money to has something that they would want to eat.
Er, two non-beef entrees -- both fish.
There are plenty of places (especially bars) I don't care to go to because of smell issues, but to make this a vegetarian issue seems to me to be going too far or trying to play the "you must respect my diet/lifestyle" a bit too hard.
I'm a vegan, and I think that if you're going out with a mixed or non-veg group of friends, it's OK to be a pain in the ass about where you all eat in the following circumstances: (1) it's your birthday or an occasion that should revolve around you, or (2) you're counting on eating and there really isn't a good veggie option for you at the place your friends have selected (or you know that the restaurant sneaks bacon grease into their vegetarian entrees). If it's not a basic problem like not being able to eat, but simply a matter of you being difficult about the way the place smells, then I think it becomes a different matter, and your responsibility to either go with the majority opinion or count yourself out. Sure, when people are planning to go out together, any member of the group can ask at any time for any reason: "Hey guys, how would you feel about going somewhere else?" But if you get voted down, that's fair too, and then you have a different choice: (1) decide to go with the group and not complain about the meat smells, or (2) decide that you're not interested in going with that group to that location. This is the kind of thing that makes people think of all vegans and vegetarians as unreasonable, but I don't think my friends should have to adhere to or be impacted by my dietary choices. If I thought that, I guess I'd only have vegan friends.
I cannot believe that someone is outraged that a place named "House of Prime Rib" was full of prime rib. Seriously? Was that a joke post?
This is America. You don't have to go anywhere you don't want to. Except maybe jail. Now, stop your sniveling and go make me a sandwich. All this talk about meat is making me hungry.
I just want to mention something in response to will47's March 9 comment comparing cigarette and wood smoke. Will said "... It may not be exactly the same as cigarette smoke, but there's certainly a possibility that it's hazardous to your health on some level." I think this was a huge understatement. :-)
Well, as far as I know, wood smoke is far more dangerous and carcinogenic than cigarette smoke. Here is some excerpt from "What's in Wood Smoke and Other Emissions" (Rozenberg 2001) (google it and you will find this paper and others like it):
"Although many people associate tobacco smoke with certain health risks, research indicates that second hand wood smoke has potentially even greater ability to damage health. A comparison between tobacco smoke and wood smoke using electron spin resonance revealed quite startling results (Rozenberg 2001). Tobacco smoke causes damage in the body for approximately 30 seconds after it is inhaled. Wood smoke, however, continues to be chemically active and cause damage to cells in the body for up to 20 minutes, or 40 times longer.
[...] EPA researchers suggest that the lifetime cancer risk from wood stove emissions may be 12 times greater than the lifetime cancer risk from exposure to an equal amount of cigarette smoke."
How about that?!
A couple of months ago I read in the local newspaper (San Jose Mercury News) about some guy that succeeded evicting a smoking couple from a neighboring apartment - he complained from secondhand smoke exposure but still kept using his BBQ. The reporter even made some comments about this and the response was "Hey, this is not tobacco smoke! This is wood!".
Let make me clear that I'm not a smoker and dislike the smell of tobacco smoke. Also, I'm not vegetarian (sorry!), and like how BBQ smoke smells (although only when I'm hungry). However, the facts are that secondhand BBQ smoke is far more dangerous, even simply because there is far more of it (burning a couple cigarettes vs. several pounds of wood or charcoal). Yes, maybe more people are dying from smoking than from BBQ smoke, but that's if we count the smokers themselves - they inhale the concentrated stuff. If you we consider just nonsmokers, exposed to secondhand smoke, the tobacco is nothing compared to your neighbor's grill.
gOnz072,
Perhaps your example from the local paper is a valid point. However, I disagree that "if we consider just nonsmokers... tobacco is nothing compared to your neighbor's grill."
Most of tobaccos bad health effects are not due to carcinogens (lung cancer is uncommon, even among smokers) but due to irritants in the smoke (COPD is the 4th leading killer) and especially due to nicotine. The real risk of tobacco smoke is heart disease and stroke from the vascular damage caused by the active ingredients of tobacco, not the smoke itself.
Also, those of us in the medical field don't think of second-hand smoke coming from the neighbor's house or from smokers at the bus stop on the street. The real danger is to those exposed to smoke in the house and in cars, or at their place of work. Children and spouses in smoking houses can breath in a great deal of smoke in the enclosed space. In the same way, workers at smoky bars have a higher risk of death and disease due to all that tobacco in the air (and we are talking heart attacks and strokes, not cancer in particular).
But I agree with you that the guy is the story was a hypocrite. And it probably is a good idea to avoid inhaling too much BBQ smoke.
I believe all the above comments have raised valid points. As a proud carnivore, I'd prefer to side w/ fellow carnivores in claiming that meat smells won't make vegetarians or vegans sick so they should put up with it.
HOWEVER, as an individual suffering from allergies, I have experienced severe illness caused by cigarette smoke -- so I commisserate with the original poster. Having spent 9 days suffering severe asthma attacks while on a 10 day trip in China, then spending another 5 months recuperating from bouts of bronchitis, sinusitis, and phnemonia (all caused by the 10 days in a smoke filled country where people dining at the same table can just light up and blow in your face); I can believe it when the person says "it made (him/her) gag".
Eating at home beforehand might not do it, because if you become sick from the smell your food might make a return appearance. Packing your own vegetarian/vegan snacks might not do it, because the smell will most likely cause at the very least a loss of appetite (horrors for chowhounders).
I'd say, either just bow out this time around, or drag along an oxygen tank and mask (my plan for the next trip to China).
I'm not just a vegetarian, I'm a vegan--7th level. I don't eat anything that casts a shadow. ; ) , but I have gone to Zeitgeist many many times without even thinking about "meat smell". I have considered getting a tetnus shot after using the bathroom...but the grill? No problem.
After one-too-many "do they have a tofu scramble", and "we don't like Mexico" and lots of nose-wrinkling. I've solved this whole problem. We just don't eat with the set of uber-picky vegetarian friends - unless we're cooking. (Irony moment - usually at least one of the fruits/vegetable choices on our menu is something "I don't really like.")
This way is so much easy and lots more pleasant for everyone.
Let's ban farting while we're at it
BORE-ING
I think that there's a lot of good advice up there. While I myself can't appreciate the exact nature of your sentiment (I *love* the smell of BBQ smoke), I can understand your frustration with your friends selecting a restaurant that you feel unable to enjoy.
I have food sensitivities and because of this, I'm limited in what restaurants I can dine at. As I've read a lot about local restaurants and tend to be help up as someone with a pretty on idea about what's good and what's not, I instead suggest another place whose food I can eat, trying my best to portray it in such a way to get everyone excited. It usually works, and if it doesn't, I gently inform them that I cannot eat at their restaurant because of my sensitivities, although if they wish to eat there, I am happy passing for once on going out with them since they should be free to dine at the establishments of their choice instead of always accommodating me. At this point, they often do give in, and if they don't, I'm not offended: sometimes (well, virtually always ;p) I want to go out for Thai food with friends and one member of the group hates Thai food, and we don't feel bad about occasionally hitting up a Thai restaurant all the same. It's just not fair to expect people to always put their desires on hold for the minority, and we understand that.
The vegetarian at a barbecue phenomenon is no joke. Eating vegetarian for a long time changes your body chemistry. Meat cooking smells turn revolting - even some processed foods start smelling odd and chemical-y after a time.
It's not a stretch to ask that vegetarians not be expected to enjoy being hauled to the Hellpit o' Smoky Beef. I'd personally be inclined to just not go, but I'm antisocial. I agree with Helena that one should take a positive approach, however, instead of being a snot-nosed whiner about it.
And while she does have a point about acting difficult, it really doesn't do to mention "vegetarianism" and "mental illness" in the same column. We compassionate types have a hard enough time in society at large as it is, without yet another authority reinforcing the stereotype. (How about a Table Manners article showing vegetarians in a positive light?)
Sanely,
ekolmus
"Eating meat is (in-arguably, without question) causing animals to suffer for our own pleasure. It's entirely hypocritical to be against "animal cruelty" then go and eat a chicken sandwich at McDonalds."
Not so at all. Animals raised and slaughtered humanely do not suffer that much. Just because we find it acceptable to kill them for food doesn't mean it's acceptable to torture them or have them suffer through the horrors of factory farming.
As for the story, I think it has nothing to do with vegeterianism in particular. It's about certain preferences of a member of a group and the group's unwillingness to accommodate it. Next time I'm meeting up with my friends I may suggest avoiding a certain bar because... I donno.. I don't like the way their glasses are shaped or the decor is giving me a headache or it's too far from where I live. Could be any reason. Could be no reason at all other than "I just don't wanna go there". You don't have to have a "valid reason" to avoid going to a place that just isn't your type of place. If I really hate broccoli, I don't have to have a "valid reason" to hate it, I just do. Same for BBQ smoke.
Now, whether the group accepts it or rejects your request depends on how much they want you to be around and on whether there are convenient alternatives to which no one else in the group has any objections. It's quite simple. There is no "reasonable" or "unreasonable" in general, only in a context of a particular group.
I wonder if the vegetarian ever wears leather??
It seems to be that we're establishing a double standard at times - if just one veg. wants to join to evening, very often that dictates everything. Meanwhile, if one meat eater joins the group, odds of going to an all veg. place is high. As someone that can be a little picky about where i eat certain things, sometimes in a group you just have to make the best of it.
Ooops, sorry, that should read if one meat eater joins an all veg. group. That'll teach me to proofread better.
Oh for God's sake- is there anything worse than a born-again?
Born-again Vegetarians
Born-again Nonsmokers
Born-again Christians (of the proselytizing variety)
Sure, I respect your choices, but who promised you your very own personal bubble in this world?
Due to the high fiber and vegetable content in your diet, you probably have a lot more gas than we omnivores do. What makes you think I want to smell THAT? I demand a fart-free zone!
I'm a veg, and I think I'm easy. Seriously, one can usually find something. I avoid fried appetizers when there are other choices so that when I need to, I can enjoy broccoli bites, onion rings and nachos for dinner. Other than that, I have three "nos."
-Crab places. You know the type - paper tablecloths, crabs dumped enmasse and everyone digs in.
-Very "Seafood" restaurants with a strong seafoody smell. From what I've heard, not desirable to seafood aficionados, either.
-Bad chinese/asian food. Usually this applies to the takeout/delivery joint down the street; Coworkers don't get it, and get offended that I choose not to eat/order/sit with them when they do their weekly order. I don't like it. I don't like the smell. And there is nothing you could do to make me eat it. They don't take "nah, I brought my lunch." They demand more. "I don't like it" isn't satisfactory. They still push; it's as if I told them their kid was ugly.
What I hate, is being asked to justify myself. It's my choice to not eat meat. I don't ask you to give it up (also amazing at how many dates in college would go "so you REALLY don't mind if I eat that burger?" when they'd hear I was a veggie); sometimes I wish I DID eat it, but I still don't like the taste (and I have tried). But I don't judge you for your choices, so don't tell me it's "stupid" and that I'm being "anal" if I ask if beans are prepared with pork, or if the rice/soup/etc. has chicken stock.
OH MY! As a recovering vegetarian(birth to age 19) I understand the whole burning/cooking flesh thingy --BUT- since we live in a country that some of us are trying to save the last bit of the CONSTITUTION...let me point out the when you have no safety reasons (i.e. like the whole 2nd hand smoke, toxic fumes/exhust, other air borne pollution) and simply put its grosses you out....well- sorry but that just doesn't cut it. Unless you are out DRINKING at a vegetarian bar and they serve bar food that is strictly vegetarian the you will be remind of the meat eaters "bar food" experiance---- (you must remember back in your meat eating day...the tastey wings, potato skins smothered in sour cream and crumbled fried pig belly....any of that sound out of whack for "bar food"?)
SO- your only solution: hang out with fellow veget's (you don't want any meat eaters breathing their potentially meaty breath in your space)
OR-----
STOP BEING SUCH A PAIN IN THE BUTT AND PLAN BEFORE YOU GO OUT WHERE YOU WANT TO DRINK WITH OUT THE MEAT/FLESH SMELL.
well, she doesn't want to smell dead flesh being roasted, her choice, like some people don't want their air passage filled with newport smokes when they don't even smoke - understandable but my sympathy isn't extended to anyone that's ever done it - born-again anythings can be a nuisance and well this is one of those times when she should have sucked it up and said well, I used to ingest the dead carcass, I can at least suffer through this one time .. and then decline way before dinner dates come as to not make anyone feel awkward.
Secondhand smoke is adverse to non-smokers health. The smell of charred flesh, while unpleasant and sometimes sickening to vegetarians, is not a public health threat.
As a vegetarian, if you demand such concessions by your friends, you may soon find yourself out of the loop at worst and a nuisance to them at best.
My advice would be to deal with whatever your group chooses and show the world how great a person you are and maybe they will someday emulate your vegetarianism.
I'm primarily a vegetarian ( i so sometimes eat seafood), but i consider myself a pretty low maintenance one. I definitly do not expect my fellow diners to have the same opinions as i do about such things, and if i go to someone's house that i don't know well, and i am graciously served something i won't eat, i'll try my best to eat around it ( hey i can make a meal out of a potato), and if it's something i cant dissect (like a meat lasagna), i'll apologize and eat some bread. i don't like to make a big deal out of it or mention it if i can help it because people start to feel bad or start fussing over me, and i'm there for the company, not the food necessarily. Who cares. Hey, if you showed up at my house really craving a meat dish, i might even make it for you. I have at least once done this for the sake of love (he was not worth the ham, haha)
People often incorrectly assume i'm a picky eater, or they will implode if tasked with feeding me at their house. I've entertained lots at my home, and have run into FAR more picky meat eaters than I could ever resemble whose diets are extremely limited compared to mine. Maybe i'm biased, but i imagine cooking for me, who will most likely try anything as long as it's not meat, is easier than the "i hate onions, spices, green peppers, vegetables, desserts" crowd that don't seem to have grown beyond their toddler mentality of picky eating.
Maybe i'm a spineless vegetarian, lol. On the flipside, several diners at my home have (unless they've lied to me!!) been pleasantly surprised at the dishes i've served, usually because they've assumed i'm going to shower them with tofu slabs or unrecognizable fare....i think.
I did once have the experience of going to a pub with a group when the ONLY thing on offer was hot wings. I ate the carrot sticks and celery that came on the side, but given that i hadn't eaten lunch and we were in for a party night....i was none too well the next day having drank on an empty stomach. Could've forgone the draft i guess, but oh well, lol.
there's my rant.
I have to go along with nomad as far as being low maint vegetarian. I stopped eating any sort of meat in 1968. I'd been thu an apprenticeship and was a journeyman butcher while still in my teens. I don't mind if you eat meat, I just dont like the taste or texture, not to mention I do know how things are processed. I did try the vegan life for 5 years in the early '70s but didn't find any great health benefit, so I went back to eating dairy.
I'm the cook in the house and I have no problem cooking meat for my wife or guests. When I go to someone elses home that wants to know what they can make for me, I always ask them to please not bother, I'll just fend for myself. I'll just eat carrots or a piece of bread. I'm lucky enough to live in a situation where I'm only a few hours away from my next meal. And to be honest, how much baked strata can you eat. Who came up with that?
Make your lifestiyle choices and let others have the same opportunity.
overall, it's good to be respectful of others' dining needs and choices, particularly when dining at home or in a small group, no matter what they are.
oftentimes there's a token vegetarian item on a menu, just one. i think this offends me more than the smell or having an utter lack of choices.... i may be vegetarian, but i like to make choices too!
i've happily dined on sides in the past, but i'm rather picky as to that. as much as i love carrots, i'm not going to just eat those or some iceberg lettuce.... gimme some nutrients and flavor! i wanna enjoy the food i'm putting in my mouth! i'm not gonna eat that crab you boiled (more for you) but the other things you prepared look mighty tasty.
whenever i cook for potlucks (usually about once every two weeks or so) i make things vegetarian, wheat and nut-free (for the major allergies that are oft-ignored).... there's enough vegans in my crowd that i don't feel guilty making something they'll avoid.
You've seriously got to be kidding me that House of Prime Rib wouldn't let you order any of the veggie side dishes ( I googled their menu, they have a "salad bowl" as well as spinach and baked potatoes) as a la carte items? What if I'm just a great big fatty-face and I want to have my prime rib AND a "salad bowl" AND a potato AND spinach???!!! I call utter bullsh*t on you! No restaurant server in their right mind would rather have only 5 of 6 people eating at a table when they could have probably charged you a bundle for each of those items as "extras".
Ack!! This question scares me since my Jain mother in law will be coming to live with us within a year. Not eating meat is part of her religion. I'm just not sure how I can survive if she wants me to stop cooking meat...!! I guess we'll just wait and see how it turns out...she's a lovely woman so I hope we can come to an agreement that suits us both.
@djvj: Mark Bittman's How to Cook Everything Vegetarian is excellent.
one solution is to use the same base dish for a meal, cooked vegetarian, then divided and meat added. you may want to do some reading, a jain diet is even more restrictive; excluding even root vegetables such as potatoes, onions and garlic.
it's not scary, though it can be frustrating. why don't you try talking to your mother in law and try cooking together or work out another solution?
I admit I chuckled quietly when I read the last paragraph of Helena's response. Always one to rile up the masses, eh? It does read a little glib or insensitive or over-generalizing or whatever... but I also admit that similar thoughts cross my mind when confronted (yes, that would be the correct term) with a super militant "my way or the highway" veggie or vegan. Mind you, I'm talking about the rare individual, not the whole lot of you... I admire those of you who "own" your own choices and don't try to ram it down everyone else's throats (ha), but the real nutters often make me wonder what the psychology is behind trying to exert a vise-grip control over everyone around them.
This is one of the most asinine things I have ever read on any food blog. Go somewhere that doesn't have an "offensive" outdoor grille. It sounds like you would purposely visit this place so you'd have an excuse to complain.
Pass the prime rib, extra rare please.
BCBQ.Girlie, going to a place called "rib house" and then complaining about it not being veggie-friendly is silly. Take some responsibility for your own happiness. If your friends want to go to places that are pretty obviously not going to be to your liking, don't go. If you aren't sure about it, google it ahead of time.
The problem isn't the restautant; the problem is you are letting someone else make decisions about where to go and what to do and they aren't taking your opinions into consideration. Talking to your friend (or your friend's friend or whoever made the reservation) so they know that your not a meat eater will help you more than complaining about rib house selling mostly meat. And if you get invited to someplace questionable again, speak up or just make other plans.
After re-reading my reply I may have come off sounding too rough. I guess I'm just tired of all the rampant political correctness these days.
@AgentLapis, I'm planning to get that Bittman book. I am already a pretty good Indian cook and am familiar with Jain cooking. My problem is that I love eating non-veg and I'm worried that I won't be able to cook the things I enjoy in my own home. Of course I'm happy and excited to have my MIL come stay/live with us, but I also think that I have a right to continue to cook/eat the foods that I love. I'm nervous about how it's all going to work out...will I have to sneak out to go eat meat? Once again, ack!!
Well. Having dated a borderline vegan for 4 years, this is an interesting issue. He was pretty good about coming up with options if a group wanted to go to a place with a bbq or grill for meat, but if that was the prevailing want/desire of the group, was pretty good about sucking it up and just trying to have fun. I am NOT veggie, never was the whole time we were together, and was able to eat meat in front of him with out feeling bad- it's my personal choice just as vegetarianism was his. Our group of friends tries to accomodate people in the group who have dietary needs- but in a city like San Fransisco, or indeed Portland, it doesn't seem to be such a stretch to find somewhere that serves veggie options. Also, I think that the cigarette smoke issue is a little different than the meat smell issue. Just my opinion.
That said, I myself respectfully bow out when the group wants to go to the bar where my ex works. It's just easier that way than trying to bend everyone to my will just 'cause I don't feel comfortable at one of our favorite bars. I usually just try to hook up with them later or at another time.
I was harsh in my original post, too, but I still maintain that anybody that goes with friends to the House of Prime Rib and then complains about having to watch them "shove dead animals into their pie holes" has more issues than can be addressed here. I don't think meat was the issue, I think it lay somewhere between a control issue and a feeling of superiority, which is ill-placed in somebody who talks that way about their friends.