Toss-Northeast Baltimore

I stopped by really quick back in March just to get a look at the place on a Friday night (was on the way somewhere else). First thing I noticed was the conveyor oven, which always gives me pause.

To be fair I still need to go back and try this place out. I never thought the pizza at Zellas was anything special. I like the space and friendly staff at Zella's very much, but the pizzas are nothing that makes me want to take the 10 or so minute drive to get over there. Hopefully Toss will fare better with their pizzas.

$18 for a 14" margherita is extremely expensive. I've paid $21 for a 12" margherita at the old Una Pizza Napoletana in Manhattan, but Anthony makes some of the very best pizzas I've ever had. An $18 14" margherita better deliver top of the top of the line quality ingredients (i.e. not all from a large food wholesaler) and the bake needs to be pegged. I don't see the latter happening in a conveyor oven, but the proof will be in the tasting.

All that aside, I am always excited to try a new place and am looking forward to a visit here soon.

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

Good point Keith. The only old-school pizzeria I can think of off the top of my head that I've seen use sliced sausage is Totonno's (Coney Island, Brooklyn)...and even there it is thought of as kind of strange.

Crumbled sausage chunks are the most common at older, "traditional" pizzerias that I've seen.....not applied across the entire pizza, but put here and there across the pizza.

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

It's open.....as of April 16th. The blog City That Breeds already peeped it. Check out the canoe shaped pizza that is one of their offerings.

http://citythatbreeds.com/2012/04/homeslyce-the-bar-opens-maintains-neighborhood-draw/

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

New Pizzeria Alert: South Baltimore is heating up on Light Street. Just one block away from Hersh's Pizza & Drinks in the old The Lighthouse Inn space is Homeslyce Pizza Bar. The address is 1741 Light Street (Light & Barney Streets). I just drove by it and took a quick cell phone picture, but don't have any more information at this point. Not sure if it is open or not yet. --K

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

I haven't been to Patsy's in a while, but they have apparently sped up their cook times based on your sub two minute bake you reported above. I timed the bake on two pizzas on 7/3/2009 at 3:15 and 3:21 respectively and then on 10/7/2010 I timed my pie at 3:09.

The pies made famous by the coal fired joints in NYC (Lombardi's, Totonno's, John's, Patsy's, Grimaldi's, etc) are a slightly different style, NY-Neapolitan, than the NY-Style most people associate with the corner slice joint. But still, 3-5 minutes is the window a slice joint should aim for.

Keep pushing KWagle, you'll get your bake time at home where you want it eventually! :)

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

I hear you KWagle.

I'm not saying six minutes is the ideal number to shoot for at all, just that at around six minutes (if not five) a NY-Style pizza really accelerates downward towards Mediocre-ville. I've had a good pie from Joe's (Carmine St) that I timed at just under six minutes. It wasn't a great NY-Style pizza, but good.

Pizza enthusiasts will argue about cook times, but many will agree that true, archetype NY-Style pizza should ideally cook in a range of 3 to 5 minutes, regardless of oven type (the common gas deck oven is capable of these times). You just start driving out too much moisture from the crust after 5 minutes. This is why so many NY-Style pizzerias serve pizza with a crumb (inner crust) that has that really dried out, almost cotton-like texture. Not good.

I'm not a pizza expert and have not been everywhere in Maryland, but I have been to many places around Baltimore. I cannot ever recall seeing a pizza cooked in less than 6 minutes, with 10+ minute cook times very common. Even in and around NYC there is a very small number of places still cranking out sub 5 minute NY-Style pizzas. A real shame.

Cook times are not everything. If you put a turd in an oven and cook it in three minutes, you have something that is quickly cooked...but it's sill a turd. But the cook time is a vital part of the equation.

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

Due to work concerns, I just visited Mamma Lucia's in Annapolis (Jennifer Road) for the second time. First visit I had re-heated slices which left a lot to be desired. so today I ordered two whole pizzas (one cheese, one pepperoni).

I felt like telling the owner that it was hotter outside than it was in his Baker's Pride oven. Heat and cooking time are two critical factors for nailing NY-Style pizza and this place struck out swinging.

My two pies were the only two in the bottom deck and the cook times were 10:17.44 and 10:41.59 respectively. That is literally *forever* for this style. When I am in a NY-Style joint and my stopwatch goes beyond six minutes, I know I'm getting a second rate pie. These pies lacked any real snap to the outer shell, the inner crust (crumb) was dry and cottony and the top of the end crust was very pale...all hallmarks of low temperature, long bake times.

Either repair your ovens if they are old and have lost heat output or turn the friggen' dial up on the thermostat already. Mamma Lucia does add a nice dusting of pecorino before adding the mozzarella, but too much mozzarella is added to the tired crust which spends an eternity in that oven.

Better than chain pizza, but not worth a special trip. Mediocre NY-Style pizza.

This ended a week of pizza eating that started with Little Italy Pizzeria in Fells Point (Baltimore) and included Totonno's in Coney Island, L&B Spumoni Gardens (Brooklyn), New Park Pizza (Queens), NY Pizza Suprema (Manhattan), Iggie's (Baltimore) and then Mamma Lucia today. Seeing 18" NY-Style pizzas being pulled from the oven in just under 3 minutes at New Park Pizza was a good sight....and tasty pizzas!

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

Aside from the obvious difference in form factor (that giant Angelo's slice is a lot bigger), there is not a huge difference between the two. The consistency at Casa Mia is all over the place....Angelo's is more consistent, at least based on my three visits to each location.

You're really comparing two middle of the road quality slice joints, so IMO the differences aren't too large. Casa Mia on my best visit there may be a tad more favorable than Angelo's, but again not a tremendous difference.

That being said, both are better Hampden area options than the wretched horse dung being served at King's Pizza and Philly Cheese on The Avenue or the lackluster pizza at Bella Roma. --K

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

The consistency at Pazani is an issue. The variability of pizza quality can and has been pretty wide at times. And the reheats are no good here....putting slices in the smaller, independent warmer (not back in the deck oven) can result in some bad reheats (too moist).

When it's firing on all cylinders, Pazani makes a relatively good pizza, but you have to catch it on a good day. Never tried the pasta dishes there.....will try next time. --K

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

There are two Neapolitan-style pizzerias in various phases right now.....one in the early construction process and one well known local chef is looking at spaces in Baltimore as I type this. Some other prospects, but I am not at liberty to say more.

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

I think Pizza John's is far enough away from downtown Baltimore that many people either forget about it or don't want to make a trek out to get pizza there.

Pizza John's was better than I expected when I first went there. I cringed at the dough being sent through a sheeter and the near assembly line mechanics of the pizza making operation, but the pies (I've been three times now) are not bad. And they are consistent.....consistency is the bane of many a pizzeria.

Pizza John's is a good local joint for sure. But I would not recommend it's a place worth driving more than 15 or so minutes to get to. Unless I am driving through the Essex area already, I wouldn't make the trek out there for it.......it doesn't take too much longer to make a much better product in your house!--K

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

Wow, timd thanks for the Olympia tip.....never heard of it! I thought Matthew's was the only joint serving Greek-style pizza in Baltimore. Will have to check out Olympia....and I still have not been to Salvino's yet either.

I agree with you 100% on great pizza towns being the ones that have diversity of style, which is why NYC is such a great pizza town (impressive given that their most imitated, and debated, style...the "corner slice joint" NY-Style pizza served in NYC is total dog crap when the style is taken as a whole). Ditto's for Chicago (deep dish is not even the most eaten style there) and San Francisco being great pizza towns for their diversity of styles.

Baltimore does have the variety of styles to offer. But the quality of the pizzas overall in Baltimore border on terrible. This is no different than anywhere else, but at least in places like some of the cities previously mentioned, even in the DC area, you can find truly great pizza. There are some places I spend money on and enjoy in Baltimore....and a couple of places are very good (quite good in fact), but IMO there is not a great pizza in Baltimore. I haven't tried everywhere in Baltimore yet, but I'm not too far off at this point.

Alas, I'm just one opinion of many. What's most important is what you like and enjoy. Now, there are a few interesting pizzerias either getting ready to open or planning to open in Baltimore in the not too distant future.......

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

I just don't get the Isabella's thing....at all.

I kept going back to get more pizza, thinking I must be going at the wrong times or getting an off day. But after 10 or so pizzas purchased on weeknight evenings, weekend days and weekend nights, the consistency of the pizzas cooked at Isabella's are all over the map.

I've never once been served a pizza resembling the one pictured in the Baltimore Magazine pizza article. All of them are generally cooked for far too long and have crusts which are dried out and leaning towards cottony inside. Some pizzas have had flavorless crusts very much resembling a blank (pre-made dough made off site and sent to the pizzeria).The pizzas certainly are not terrible, but I wouldn't go back there either to pay for a pizza after multiple trips and lots of leftover pizza that did not get eaten...

The sandwiches however can be pretty good and I will continue to go for those. Friendly staff too.

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

KWagle, a fan of Patsy's East Harlem here too....although the consistency is more hit or miss there since their long-time pizza maker Jose Jiminez died in late 2009. Totonno's has indeed re-opened and are once again cranking out arguably the best New York-Neapolitan style pizzas in NYC again.

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

Anyone can turn an oven to its highest setting or purchase an oven which reaches high temperatures, but that does not mean the dough going into the oven will be any good. While high heat is a critical part of great pizza, how great the crust can be is largely determined long before the dough/skin hits the deck of the oven.

Oven temperature in and of itself can be only moderately useful. Perhaps more important is the time it takes for an oven to cook a pizza. It's no good to have a hot oven if that heat is not efficiently distributed....and you do not have a skilled person on the sticks to manage the pizza (moving them to hotter and cooler parts of the oven) in such an inefficient oven....ovens like the barrel vaulted and/or more rectangular ovens originally used for bread or modelled after such ovens like at Lombardi's, Patsy's, Sally's, Pepe's, etc, etc are not good at conveying even heat. Hence the need for talented people on the sticks.

And absolute temperature is not the tell all. The material that comprises the floor of the refractory chamber plays a huge roll....not all materials have the same thermodynamic properties. The individual fire bricks used to buld a traditional low domed, round Neapolitan wood-fired oven need to be heated to between 800°F to 950°F on the floor to cook a pizza in the 60-90 seconds typical for that style. If you were to replace that brick floor with a thick layer of cordierite (what kiln shelves are commonly made of), cooking at the same 800-950 temperature would likely burn the pizza in 60-90 seconds as cordierite has a better ability to transfer heat at a given temperature than firebrick. Soapstone would cook faster at a given temperature than cordierite, steel plate at a faster rate then soapstone, etc (assuming equal thicknesses and same oven chamber).

I've made plenty of 120 second pizzas in my home oven on a cordierite kiln stone heated to 775°F. My newer soapstone shelf cooks a pizza in the same amount of time, but I have to lower the launch temp of the stone to 725-740 or so to cook the same 120 second pizza without burning it for the reasons previously mentioned.

So, while high heat is very important (the fuel source providing that heat is not that important, as long as it is high), how that heat is distributed in the oven (due to oven design, materials, etc) and what materials the oven are constructed of are also vitally important. --K

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

Beeracuda, your name is excellent!.

Lombardi's is a name I keep hearing about for Ohshawn City, hon. I'm doing a weekend jaunt in the next 3 weeks or so just to eat as much pizza as I can for a beach report.

Some people have told me Mancini's Brick Oven Pizza on Coastal Highway in Fenwick Island is a decent option while at the beach:

http://www.mancinisbop.com/

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Best Pizza in DC Metro Area

Thanks for the mention Vivinator.

Call it a symantics issue, but I get a little tired (my opinion only, which is the opinion of a ranting fool!) of people saying such and such a place serves "great" pizza. I think "great" is a candidate for a list of the most over abused words in the English language. I am NOT an expert on pizza, but my moderate amount of pizza eating has shown me that the amount of pizzerias selling "great" pizza is ridiculously small. From a perspective of the pizza itself only (not how a place looks, service, etc), I am not yet sold that there is a single "great" pizzeria in DC or in Baltimore....but I would be a fool to claim I have been to every place in those areas. However, we are definitely blessed that there is a healthy amount of places selling some darned good pizza in the DC-Baltimore area!

It's also interesting to hear people say a pizza place is the "best" place in . Really? It may be the person's favorite they have tried, but the "best"?

In truth, there is no "best" pizza in DC, or anywhere. One could say a place is the "best" pizzeria in a geographic area only if they have been to *every* single pizza place in that area....and *more than once* to get a gauge on consistency. Even then, said person's "best" pizzeria would more aptly be called their "favorite" pizza.

A lot of discussion and debates on topics like this are purely subjective in manner...they reflect one person's preference in pizza style, ambiance of the location, sentimentality of a place being an old stand-by and/or the service at a place or any combination of possibilities.

I do not feel it is fair to even compare a place like, for example, 2Amys to Vace as they serve two completely different styles of pizza. That's like saying Guinness is "better" than Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. Yes, they are both beers, but represent two completely different styles. Again, it's subjective.

Now, one could more accurately compare and talk about "better" when comparing Pizza Paradiso to, say, RedRocks or 2Amys as these all proffer a product within the same style of pizza -- Neapolitan influenced pizzas. But again, not everyone is even going to like all the different pizza styles, so we are still largely stuck in the realm of subjectivity and opinion only.

Potentially the only fair argument is whether or not a pizza is "good". This is somewhat easier to determine, but again it depends on an individual's exposure to pizza. A person who grew up in an area where only major chains or mom and pop shops selling similar pizzas were available may be thrilled at their first taste of a place like Vace's (and rightly so), which would definitely be a "better" pizza than what they have been previously exposed to. They might ardently say it's the "best", even though in other areas of the city, or in other cities, there are other pizzerias selling similar styled pizzas which are even better than Vace's.

So, these types of posts basically get you only so far. Again, I will ardently claim that in a city with a realitively wide selection of "good" or better pizzerias, any "rankings" and claims of the "best" should be viewed with a degree of skepticism. On the other hand, subjective arguments often inspire the most passion and as such are the most interesting to follow and take part of.

Most importantly, these posts bring to play names of pizzerias some of us may have never even heard of before, which is always a potential treat! So this is why these threads are very much needed. I have a couple of new places in DC I look forward to trying....

All this novel long blathering by me is just another opinion about pizza, and opinions are like ar*eholes, we all got one and they can often stink! ;-P

In the end, as long as a person is eating a pizza they really enjoy, then that's a very good thing indeed. Happy eating. --K

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

I have not been to Ciao since winter time, so I cannot say what it is like now.

When I went in February I thought it was an average pizza.

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

For anyone interested, some pics I took while at Italian Graffiti. I got a regular pie and a margherita.

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

I don't think Pasta Mista is too bad....it can tend to be undercooked and a little too puffy/bready straight out of the oven, particularly at the Canton location, but even then it is usually a decent caliber slice for sure.

With regards to the New Yorkers, it's always interesting to find out where exactly in NYC they get pizza from....being that in my limited experience the majority of pizzerias in NYC are either shadows of what they were 15-20 years ago or were never that good to begin with.

I am certainly no pizza expert and have been fortunate and humbled to have met up with, gone out to eat pie with and been "plugged into" some people that are very much so. My NYC pizza jaunts over the years have indicated to me that the number of places serving a really good NY Style slice in Manhattan is ridiculously minute....and it always surprises me how few New Yorkers are even aware of them.

At the same time, it is from people who live in NYC that I have had most of my great NY Style findings, so please ask your students where exactly they are getting a good slice from....another great NY Style joint may be awaiting for more to discover it! :)

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

@Tobynissly: The answer would be yes. Many Baltimore pizzerias use sauce that comes straight out of a can from among the same group of suppliers (Don Pepino, a lower end offering from Stanlislaus, Bonta, Pastorelli, etc). It gets dropped off the truck, maybe spiced up a little, maybe sugar added to it and put on your pizza. Most of these sauces run the gambit from abysmal to just okay. I agree they are for the most part entirely too sweet and in some cases downright "tinny" tasting.

In truth, the bulk of pizzerias all over the place, not just in Baltimore, use mediocre to average quality ingredients to top their pizzas and/or have either a lack of desire or technical proficiency to create a dough that is better than standard.

And why should they offer anything different? As long as droves of people continue to pay for what is essentially pizza that has been reduced to a commodity type product, there is no need to change. I also don't think the world will support nothing but higher end pizzerias charging high prices.

There is a huge opportunity for places in the middle ground that would offer a higher quality product without catering to the "gourmet" (I've never had a great pizza from a place using that moniker) segment or to the bottom of the barrel delivery type crap. It's amazing what even a slight increase in toppings quality and a lot of passion and knowledge put into the dough and cooking the pizza can do to an ordinary pizza.

When more pizzeria operators open a pizza place primarily out of a deep passion for the product and not primarily as a business oportunity focused on selling units, a crap storm of good pizza could one day be stirred up. Until then......

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Pizza in Baltimore

Rubino's looks a lot like Chicago thin crust style, particularly because they cut their round pizzas "party" or "tavern" style and the pizza has no real discernable raised outer edge, or "il cornicione".

I have not been to Rubino's, but the sauce on Chicago thin crust style (if that is what Rubino's is a close approximation of) is in my experience more seasoned/spiced than the sauce encountered in Baltimore City.

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Terrapin Taco House

Yep, Terapin was Tippy's. I grew up in College Park and it was Tippy's all through my childhood back when the Starlight Go-Go was also nearby on Route 1 and Tippy's parking lot was often filled with bikers and some nice Harley Davidson's. Our family "go-to" places back then were Ledo in Adelphi, Harley's in Laurel for subs and Tippy's and the Alamo in Riverdale for Mexican.

In retrospect, having authentic, fresh Mexican tacos in Baltimore that are killer, I'm not even sure Tippy's was great like I thought it was when I was a kid, but what does it matter? I loved it back then. Getting a Monterrey Dinner or Sunken Burrito and squeezing in a game at Monte Golf afterwards was just about right!

Damn, now I want some Tippy's!

pizzablogger in Washington DC & Baltimore Area

Outer Banks Pizzerias?

Well, I ended up exprimenting with grilled pizza (for the first time) at our house on the beach and got hooked, which means tinkering with it left less time to go out for pizza. Grilled pizza can be really, really good.

I didn't try nearly as much pizza as I would have liked. I had some pretty lackluster pizza, but the best I had wasn't pizza, it was the flatbreads at the Black Pelican on the Beach Road at MP4 in Kitty Hawk. The pizza at Black Pelican has way too much cheese and is out of balance. The flatbreads were pretty tasty with a nice crisp on the thin crust from the wood fired oven and a better crust-cheese-toppings balance.

My first time in the OBX in 15 years. Nice to be reminded there is a reason people from Maryland drive 6 hours to go to the OBX when we have Maryland and Delaware beaches only 2.5 hours away. Great beaches and now there are plenty of amenities to suit anyone....and still the remoteness of Hatteras Island to get more away from it all.

We're going back next year and I will definitely take 2 days to hit some of the pizza places I saw from Corolla to Avon. Thanks for the advice everyone. --PB

pizzablogger in Southeast

Outer Banks Pizzerias?

Thanks for the detailed directions foodjack!

Much appreciated :)

pizzablogger in Southeast

Outer Banks Pizzerias?

Chesapeake Pizza looks like it'll have to be worked into the drive. :)

pizzablogger in Southeast

Outer Banks Pizzerias?

Will try Slice.....not too far from where I am staying. Thanks FC Baldwin!

pizzablogger in Southeast

Outer Banks Pizzerias?

Hey Dawg, it could certainly appear that way!

I'm not coming to the OBX to eat pizza, but for vacation. That being said, I like to try a few of the better regarded pizzerias in any area I visit.

I'm not expecting a beach pizzeria to live up to a NYC pizza (and a good pizza does NOT need to be New York style, or any particular style), but am merely looking for the best the beach has to offer.

My initial post was to help people direct me to the places, if they exist, that really focus on making good pizza, even if they are not the most popular from an absolute sales/marketing standpoint.

pizzablogger in Southeast

Outer Banks Pizzerias?

Need a shot with some of the red onions!

pizzablogger in Southeast