markml's Profile
Looking for Good Traditional Dim Sum (Downtown)
Hi Orange: First of all thanks for the candid advice! Much appreciated and I intend to check out some of these place when I get a chance.
I can't say whether or not you're onto something with the "man thou" or not. That doesn't quite look like what I remember, but you say there are 3 types. I will need to do some investigating.
I'll report back when/if I learn anything.
Origins of dim sum in San Francisco and Hong Kong (split from Ontario board)
gnomatic, I'm not really trying to bash anyone so I apologize if that's the way it seems.
Wow. Is it really cheaper to transport some produce from Asia to Canada than from the U.S.? That just seems so messed up that the market would allow that. It's bad enough for the environment coming from across the continent!
I'm not particularly snobbish when it comes to "locally grown", but just trying to be pragmatic. Anyway, the standard people use when they refer to "locally grown" in California is quite a bit different from Toronto. If I remember correctly, in California, it means "25 miles or less".
I can't even tell the difference if it's driven 25 miles or driven 100 miles, so to me, the culture surrounding "locally grown" in California has very little to do with food quality but more to do with environment and economics.
This is not true of fruits and vegetables shipped from California to Toronto. I can definitely taste the difference because I KNOW what these same fruits and vegetables are like when I buy them in California. The difference in freshness is very noticible to me, AND I feel incredibly guilty about what it does to the environment. I can't even imagine the difference in freshness for something coming from Asia.
Does that mean that I won't ever buy anything unless it's locally grown here? No. But I'm a lot more conscious of it than I used to be, because in California, it's not as big of a deal either in terms of quality or enviornmental impact. Sure, Californians have a big "culture" (if that's what you want to call it) but that's just the way we are.
So, in short, it's better to get "local" even if it's not as "authentic" (mutations, growing conditions, etc.) I actually just bought a huge box of Ontario peaches a week ago for less than 5 bucks, which is a great deal in my opinion. Have I had better peaches picked off the vine in California? Yes. Have I had better peaches shipped from California to Toronto? Definite definite no!
Origins of dim sum in San Francisco and Hong Kong (split from Ontario board)
As a side note, I do look for locally grown produce (not just in major supermarkets) and buy it whenever possible, but it's just not as available here. That's a fact, and yes, California has better agriculture. Always has and always will.
This makes it nearly impossible for certain types of inexpensive low-margin restaurants to exist (try finding a decent $5 salad place in Toronto). Of course, at high-end restaurants, you can get anything you can afford, so I'm not even saying that this restricts the authenticity of cuisines in Toronto.
One of the major reasons California has such good agriculture (besides climate) is actually because of the Chinese who came there and figured out how to farm the land. Originally, something like 90% of farmers in California were Chinese!
This is one reason they were able to so closely reproduce the food from their homeland. Everything from the ground to the kitchen table was produced by Chinese. The people who are ignorant are the ones who say that California Chinese food was much different than Mainland Chinese food.
Read "This Bittersweet Soil: The Chinese in California Agriculture" if you're interested.
Origins of dim sum in San Francisco and Hong Kong (split from Ontario board)
Lychees were available in California since 1897 (http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/lychee.html ). I can imagine having trouble finding stuff in NYC, but you can grow and therefore find almost anything in California.
Canada may have more relaxed regulations on importing fruits and vegetables, but most of the imports I see are from California or Mexico. I doubt that Canada would import produce from Asia if it can be grown in California, and I doubt there's much you can't grow in California or at least somewhere in North America.
I think it would much harder to find most ingredients in Toronto or NYC than in California. In fact, I have a lot of trouble when I'm shopping for produce in the supermarkets around here. There's very little selection of locally grown produce in Ontario, and when the produce gets shipped across the continent it's not as fresh.
Origins of dim sum in San Francisco and Hong Kong (split from Ontario board)
Hi skylineR33:
- I never said that I could not find the sesame balls and egg tart dim sum for ages. I only said I had trouble finding them in T.O.
- When you hear "beef ball" and "spare rib" that could mean anything.
Authenticity is subjective, in my opinion.
If you are arguing that only a trained chef can say whether dim sum is authentic or not, then NEITHER of us should be arguing about this subject since I'm going to assume that neither of us are chefs.
Also, I can't speak of HK's diversity since I've never been there. All I know is that I am not satisfied with the options I've seen in Toronto so far. I will continue to look.
Origins of dim sum in San Francisco and Hong Kong (split from Ontario board)
K K, I think we can all agree that dim sum does not originate in SF or HK!
I never said Luk Yu was the first dim sum establishment in HK either. It would be interesting if someone could find the oldest record of there being dim sum IN HONG KONG. Because to me, there isn't enough evidence to support the belief that HK is the heart and soul of Cantonese cooking today and that it's more authentic there than anywhere else that is not copying HK-style.
Show me the evidence and I'll believe you.
Looking for Good Traditional Dim Sum (Downtown)
Hi jeannieh20: Thanks for the suggestion. I'll definitely give this a try! As I've said, I much prefer the carts, but food is most important.
Looking for Good Traditional Dim Sum (Downtown)
Hi everyone! Just to report back, I tried Forestview today and it was better but still not quite what I'm looking for. The har gow was kinda mediocre, as the dough stuck together and fell apart to easily. Other dishes were okay. The buns weren't the ones I'm looking for either, though closer than Bright Pearl's. They had a version of the sesame balls, but not quite the quality I'm looking for either.
Prices were good. We didn't have carts there, but it looked like there would have been if we arrived earlier. I brought a fellow American with me, and he really liked it but he's no where near as picky as me.
Origins of dim sum in San Francisco and Hong Kong (split from Ontario board)
I quite agree with what gnomatic is saying.
To defend myself, I think I made of point of saying that your interpretation of what's more "authentic" or not is completely subjective. I was a bit offended by skylineR33's assumption that what I ate while growing up was "non-authentic westernized crap". It sounded to me like he went to a few bad restaurants in SF back in the old days, and made assumptions about the entire culture there.
We all have biases based upon where and when we grew up. Since the bulk of Chinese people I've met in Toronto seem to be mostly Hong Kongers, it makes sense that they model their expectations based upon the food they can get in HK. But there's room for diversity too. It's wrong to believe that the only Cantonese food that exist is either HK-style or adulterated American.
I have a mixed heritage, but my Chinese grandparents and great-grandparents came to California in the late 1800's. I also personally know families who've been there for almost 10 generations now.
I mostly ate either pure American or pure Chinese (meaning Cantonese) food, but not Americanized Chinese food. My family went to Chinese restaurants mainly with my grandfather and other elders up until my grandfather passed away, and my family would be embarassed if it was not traditional enough for them. It was my grandfather who first introduced me to dim sum when I was little.
I was never allowed to do any of the ordering myself, and I wouldn't have been able to even if I were allowed, because the menus were only in Chinese and I can't read it. But that's also why you'll have to forgive me if the English names don't mean a lot to me either. I questioned the authenticity of several Toronto items based upon their names and descriptions, but maybe those items are authentic and I just don't recognize them in English.
You know, saying that Chinese from America are less authentic than Chinese from the mainland or from HK is like saying that Quebecois is a less authentic French culture than the French born in France. I'm sure that most people from Quebec would get mad at you if you told them that their culture is an Anglocized version of the real French. Obviously, that may have happened a little bit, but there is still a distinct culture there whose roots are just as genuine as any French person living in Europe.
The same argument can be said for American Chinatown heritage, probably even more so if you know the history. My understanding is the only thing that made American Chinatowns become more of melting pot is when newer Chinese started immigrating in the 60's. And so you suddenly had a bridge between cultures that had been separated for some time. And for a time, you probably saw a bit of a mix between the old and the new. But now, every restaurant (at least in Toronto) seems to want to copy HK because that's the dominant culture, but that doesn't mean that other cultures are inferior.
Looking for Good Traditional Dim Sum (Downtown)
Here's another clue that just occurred to me: the unfilled buns are very similar in quality to what are known as "shou tao" but maybe not quite as good.
Actually, if anyone knows of a place in Toronto that serve good shou tao, please let me know because that's a good sign to me.
Looking for Good Traditional Dim Sum (Downtown)
Hey szw: That's exactly what I mean. The buns and the toppings are served seperately...at least that's what I remember.
Also, they all taste different to me too! I think the dough may be similar but there are slight variations that effect taste and consistency.
The buns I'm talking about were very smooth, and I don't think as fluffy as the BBQ pork ones. More dense I think...but not too dense. I've had both the BBQ pork ones and the lotus seed ones back in Cali too, and if my memory is correct, the lotus seed one was closer to the plain ones but not quite the same. None I've had in T.O. so far are even remotely close -- the BBQ pork bun at Bright Pearl was a joke, not even really a bun.
Your 3rd picture looks similar to my memory, except mine have a mark on them.
Looking for Good Traditional Dim Sum (Downtown)
T Long: Well, people would generally put their own fillings in the buns, but I like to just eat them plain. The actual bun is different than the ones I've seen here that are stuffed with bbq pork. I like it better. Maybe this just has to do with the bakery quality?
Looking for Good Traditional Dim Sum (Downtown)
Now that I think about it, I might have had these spareribs and beef balls before. It's really hard to say, because I don't really go by the names of these dishes but what they look like.
Origins of dim sum in San Francisco and Hong Kong (split from Ontario board)
Unfortunately, that goes against immigration theory in America...the "frozen in time" phenomenon is known to exist in many immigrant communities, but especially Asian ones. Many Chinese restaurants do not cater at all to white people, certainly not in the 1980's.
A Chinese community in America with a significant number of older Chinese will have some traditional non-American (and non-HK) restaurants. The Chinatowns only really started to evolve when newer Chinese and other Asians started arriving in the 60's. This is when Hong Kong started influencing Chinese cuisine in America.
Origins of dim sum in San Francisco and Hong Kong (split from Ontario board)
Ok, now I am 99% sure you are misinformed. I guarantee you that will not find either chop suey or General Tso's chicken on the menu of any of the Chinese restaurants I've been to.
Your wikipedia page mentions Panda Express, which is very far removed from traditional "Chinese American" cuisines. Of course there were chefs coming over in the 1900's though not as many as now. Quantity of chefs doesn't mean people didn't know what their own food was like back home!
Looking for Good Traditional Dim Sum (Downtown)
Well, I've been to Asian Legend, which is far far from the cusine I'm talking about (Northern Chinese as you said) and they did not have the correct buns.
Origins of dim sum in San Francisco and Hong Kong (split from Ontario board)
Yes, I understand what you're saying. And regardless of when the first dim sum place was established in HK, it is quite obvious that Cantonese cusine has been around in HK for many centuries.
Less obvious to me is that modern HK cuisine has remained authentic to its Cantonese origins, since it was influenced by British, Japanese, other Chinese, etc.
On the other hand, many American Chinatowns were practically frozen in time for over 100 years. Chinese were segregated and heavily discriminated against, which created tight-knit isolated communities. I don't know what makes you think that these would be more "westernized".
Chipotle Opens! (Downtown Toronto)
Shouldn't be that surprising. Even though Toronto is very large and cosmopolitan, it is no where near as large as LA, which also has the second highest population of ethnic Mexicans IN THE WORLD. Considering that Mexico City (which has the highest population) is the 2nd largest city in the world, that's saying a lot!
Every year, almost a million Mexican nationals move to the U.S. The number trickling into Canada is only in the thousands, several significant digits less, though growing steadily.
You'll find small suburbs in the midwest that seem to have more Mexicans than Toronto (unless the ones in T.O. are hiding really well).
Looking for Good Traditional Dim Sum (Downtown)
I've not visited Dynasty yet, but their website is a bit discouraging. I'm suspicious, because the dim sum menu they give lists things like meatballs and spareribs, which to me, doesn't sound very traditional. Also, since when is shark fin soup a dim sum item?
On the other hand, it does suggest that they may have some of the items I want, although I can't tell without going there.
But I much prefer the carts, because you can see what you're ordering and make sure it's fresh, and because it's just not fun having dim sum without the carts. And of all the dim sum places I've been to that stopped using carts (not just here but back in Cali), not a single one have I been pleased with.
I'm willing to travel outside of downtown for decent dim sum, but if you suggest a place, try to make sure it fits my criteria as best as possible, because I don't want to travel far to be dissapointed again.
Origins of dim sum in San Francisco and Hong Kong (split from Ontario board)
I don't want to start an argument but out of curiousity...
How old is dim sum in HK? According to the Internet, Luk Yu is the oldest remaining dim sum place in HK, which was established in 1933. According to Wikipedia, the first teahouse in HK opened at the end of the 19th century, but did they serve dim sum?
Dim sum in the SF Bay Area dates back to the very early 1900's, possibly even earlier. The big earthquake of 1906 (which the movie of the same name is based upon) destroyed all of SF Chinatown along with most of the city, so it's nearly impossible to find records of establishments that existed in the old SF Chinatown.
So based upon what I've just told you, I think it seems at least possible that there were places serving dim sum in SF before HK. I'm no historian, and it's only something I heard, so feel free to prove me wrong.
SF Chinatown itself became very gentrified and touristy...I don't know when...but it was definitely gentrified by the 80's imho. Oakland's Chinatown, along with Alameda, San Leandro, Richmond and a couple other places nearby are very non-gentrified, and that's where the good dim sum places were in those days.
I don't know how much time you spent in SF in the 80's. I'm just saying that maybe you're getting the wrong impression of what I'm looking for.
Chipotle Opens! (Downtown Toronto)
Do you know who has stricter regulations when it comes to growth hormones, etc? That could effect prices. I know that Tyson chicken in the U.S. is hormone free.
Chipotle Opens! (Downtown Toronto)
Well, when it comes to national burger places, you have pretty much the same chains in Canada as you do in the U.S. (plus a couple extra in Canada that you don't have in the U.S.), so I'm not sure I understand the competition argument in this case...
Although I can definitely see how competition is a major issue in other areas in this country (including Mexican food and food that is regionalized in the U.S.).
Origins of dim sum in San Francisco and Hong Kong (split from Ontario board)
What makes you think that 80's and 90's dim sum from SF is more westernized or less traditional than Toronto's?
Sure there are some places that are known for catering to more westernized tastes, but I highly doubt that applies to the area as a whole (especially if you venture outside of the SF the city itself). In fact, from what I've heard, dim sum restaurants existed in SF before they did in Hong Kong.
So I guess you could say it's matter of opinion which is more authentic, but I defintiely find the older SF ones more traditional.
Chipotle Opens! (Downtown Toronto)
I wouldn't call it "massive" because the last one I ate, I started and finished just while walking upstairs to my apartment. I'd say it's decently sized, could be a little bit cheaper, and that they're stingy with extras like chips compared to other burrito chains (not that I want their chips anyway).
Chipotle Opens! (Downtown Toronto)
Well, maybe we can do some investigation on the sodium content at the Toronto Chipotle. I'd be curious to see if it's higher, because I've never noticed the saltiness before.
I've never been to Japan, but I believe what you're saying since they seem to have a higher standard for just about everything. I was thinking though that maybe Canadian fast food is inferior than the U.S. because there's less demand for it here?
Looking for Good Traditional Dim Sum (Downtown)
My favorite dim sum experiences were in the early 90's or late 80's in the San Francisco area. I don't know how much that's going to help even if you're very familiar with the SF area, because I don't remember exact names of places (some may no longer be around), and I've fallen out of touch with Chinese cuisine in California.
It's been a long time since I've had really good dim sum.
Perhaps, use the other specific criteria that I've suggested to help guide me. I like dim sum desserts a lot, and so far, of the place I've been to, they don't even serve the egg tarts, which is pathetic!
Looking for Good Traditional Dim Sum (Downtown)
I still haven't found a decent dim sum restaurant in Toronto. The last place I checked out, the Bright Pearl, was very mediocre at best in my opinion. So I'm opening this up to the Chowhounders...
To clarify specifics: I want a place that focuses on the older Cantonese dim sum, not newer dishes from Hong Kong, or non-Cantonese dishes.
They MUST USE the carts. Absolutely necessary!
They should have a good selection of steamed dishes, not just fried stuff, and preferably a good number of shrimp and seafood dishes (good quality har gow is a must, and I still haven't found any place that serves it up to my standards).
There's also these semi-sweet steamed buns I like...I don't know what they're called, but they don't come with any filling in them, and they serve them at a lot of the dim sum places where I come from.
Oh yeah, what would be really good is if they had a desert cart with those sesame balls and the egg custard tarts. I haven't had either of those in ages.
Any suggestions?
How to survive with only a microwave?
Yep...well the fish was at least edible, despite not looking very appetizing. The steam pressure caused it to explode, although I'm not sure why...maybe too much liquids in there.
Interesting find on the microwave rice cooker. I'll look into those too if I get a chance.
Chipotle Opens! (Downtown Toronto)
I'm thinking I might have been a little harsh on them in my first review.
Ok, so I went back there. This time I avoided the chips and just ordered a steak burrito. The chopped steak they gave me was fresh off the grill. I will say that the steak meat is fresh and a grade higher than most fast food burrito places (even in California, I've had burritos with low-quality meat).
It is a bit chewy (so don't expect to gulf it down), but real steak is chewy, especially when it's cut into those big chunks. I'm undecided about whether I like the chewiness factor or not, but at least I know I'm getting real steak and not dogfood.
The saltiness is a different issue. Has anyone here been to a U.S. Chipotle recently who can comment on whether their stuff is as salty, because I don't remember it so. Making everything so salty gives it that "fast food quality", which is a definite turn-off. I also think it's completely unnecessary, because the ingredients seem good enough that you don't need the salt to disguise them...unless, they are planning to pull a bait-and-switch and replace the ingredients with cheaper ones later on.
Actually, I've noticed that most fast food chains are worse here than in the U.S. Anyone else notice this?
I enjoyed the service, and found the staff to be very friendly, intelligent and well-trained. Much better than other fast food places and even full-service restaurants downtown in this city.
It's definitely worth trying out, but whatever you do, AVOID THE CHIPS!
Chipotle Opens! (Downtown Toronto)
If by "certain sub shops", you mean Subway, that's what Quizno's was invented for. No processed cheese and fresh hand-carved meat. I mean, I've seen them carve...at least in the U.S.
Chips are half the dining experience, when I'm in the mood for anything Mexicanish. I'm surprised they were so bad, because it seems like such a simple thing, but bad chips can totally ruin the mojo.
I mean, I knew I should have been suspicious when I saw the chips came prepackaged in paper bags, but at the last minute I said, "what the hey, I'll give them a try." I wanted to have the full experience. But after eating a few of them, I just stopped, because I knew my tongue would go numb from the huge salt crystals and I wouldn't be able to taste anything else I was eating. That's how bad they were!
The one thing I'm hoping right now is that after Chipotle's brave move, their biggest competitor, Baja Fresh, will take a hint and also come up here.
