cresyd's Profile
Protected Designation of Origin (PDO)
The article is interesting, but ultimately I still disagree.
I've learned a lot from this, but this is a case for me where I believe it is a primary issue of politics (which I will happily not go into detail) and a secondary issue of food. In the article they talk about the appeal where they had to conduct "(a)survey to determine if the word "feta" was associated in European population’s mind with Greece". This argument was a key factor particularly given the Danish and German producers also using images of Greek flags on the packaging.
Fair enough - in Europe, feta = Greece. However, in other parts of the Middle East/Mediterranean, while even though it may be acknowledged to be a tradition descended from Greek ancestors - the feta tradition has lived on. Now the PDO only applies to the EU, but this denies EU trade opportunities to a "traditional" feta producer anywhere else, despite their "long standing feta tradition".
Protected Designation of Origin (PDO)
Israel, Turkey and a number of countries in the Middle East are part of the EU Neighborhood Policy that involves a wide range of partnerships and being included in various EU programs/policies/etc. I have no clue whether or not PDO status is part of such a policy - but I wouldn't be surprised if it was within the realm of being included. Every few years or so issues of "scaling up relations" are discussed, and that includes issues of trade/product labeling/etc.
I am familiar with the issue of the Danish feta, and while I understand the motivation related to that issue - in the greater scheme of things - I think the choice made was wrong. Deciding whether or not feta or labne is geographically specific is an argument that can completely be made. But neither have an argument I agree with.
I also agree that national borders are outside the remit of this board, but in the discussion of the PDO of feta (and thus perhaps not relevant for Chow at all), I think it's a huge part of the issue.
Protected Designation of Origin (PDO)
Well I guess that ultimately this is where our disagreement will remain regarding the geographic distinction of Greece. I do understand that the process of how it's made is part of the PDO - but from what I understand that it includes all of the geographic area of mainland Greece and the island of Lesbos. Which I personally do not consider as falling under the label of being all that specific topographically.
While falafel may fall into the category of the 'obvious', there are cheeses/yoghurts such as labne where such an argument could easily be made that its "only within southern Lebanon because the topography and agriculture of the Galilee has changed too dramatically in the past 70 years due to different irrigation techniques" or "only within the Galilee region because its earliest usages can be traced there". I see the history and production of labne to be no different than feta. Both products have been made across the region for centuries and while they may be associated more with one place - that's not the same as being regionally specific. And when you're talking about an area where borders and regions are so fresh, this is completely politicking to me.
Protected Designation of Origin (PDO)
First, I would like to thank people for engaging with me on this topic. I know that I'm heavily biased, but I did want to hear other perspectives on the topics.
Ultimately, I guess I'm going to be left in the 'agree to disagree' camp of PDO - especially in regards to food traditions that are from the Mediterranean/Middle East. I currently live in Jerusalem - and so when I see someone sticking a flag in halloumi or feta it seems both disingenuous to the food traditions that really are not so narrowly defined geographically., but also just...unhelpful when acknowledging all of the tensions in the greater region that emerge from political and ethnic lines.
Where I am the argument of whether falafel is Palestinian/Lebanese/Israel/etc. - is a whole lot of chest bumping that's completely tied to a nationalistic story and nothing about food traditions. So I hear the PDO story from the perspective of sucking all cultural and ethnic products into an angry nationalistic argument when it doesn't reflect a far greater tradition of the region and people's lives over time. Personally, I see giving feta or halloumi a PDO is the same as giving kebabs a PDO. But I do appreciate people giving me the other side of the argument.
Protected Designation of Origin (PDO)
Halloumi is not strictly a Cypriot cheese. There are Halloumi traditions, again, throughout the Middle East. And I stick with my cynicism about but what makes the notion that feta is strictly limited to the arbitrary borders of Greece defies your point of "short list of breeds which drink x water and eat x mix of grasses". Greece is not topographically uniform. And so a feta coming from milk from sheep raised in the mountains may have a dramatically different water/diet (and breed) than a sheep raised along the coast/at sea level. When we're talking from a more strict geographic/topographic area from specific breeds of animals - I'm far more sympathetic to the notion. But Greece's PDO on feta is not a point I'm going to be won on - specifically when you're talking about the ethnically Greek populations in Cyprus and Turkey who have been making feta for generations and originated from the historical Greek traditions of feta. The fact that when the borders were drawn up, that their cheese fell outside of the political boundaries of Greece does not change where their cheese and cheese traditions came from.
And the point of trademark/copyright (as I understand it) has more to do long-term with staking claim to the 'name brand' than strictly the intellectual property. Copyright preserves the right to the name to that company (in our example Coca Cola), however it does not preserve the rights to the process/recipe in perpetuity. (this is most common amongst pharmaceuticals) So the point of saying "this is the only feta that can be called feta" - is not about claiming the recipe but the name. Same way with Aspirin or Coca Cola.
I get that when feta/cheddar/Bordeaux was invented that there wasn't a strict patent/copyright process to legally take advantage of and thus the PDO process goes in to both lay claim to regional aspects but also to somewhat rectify the advantages that Coke has to traditional food preparation. I guess that ultimately I see too many political fingers all over the system to be won over. Particularly in areas/regions where those borders are relatively new.
Protected Designation of Origin (PDO)
Maybe it's because where I live - but I have a really really hard time with the notion that feta made within the boundaries of Greece needs to be protected from the feta made in Cyprus or other areas where there is a genuine feta tradition. I personally would not feel comfortable telling a cheese maker in Cyprus that they're "bastardizing the tradition of feta".
I mean, the notion that Newcastle Ale had to have its PDO revoked so that it could move its factory across a river is not something that sells the point to me. Also, when you make the point about copyrights and trademark - then to me it is just about marketing/capitalism and not specifically the product. However, for Greece to say that it 'owns feta' - this is something I'm not sympathetic to.
I actually understand better the notion of region-protection when there's a strong relationship to where a product is grown/harvested/raised/etc. The notion that the content of a lamb raised in the English Lake district would be exposed to x weather, y nutrients, etc, or a wine grape is influence by the soil before coming wine - all of that I have a food/drink sympathy for. Maybe my palate can't distinguish a wine from Bordeaux vs Indiana - but I'm open to the idea that there is a distinct difference based on the region where the product was grown.
I'm just seriously struggling to have this sympathy for cheese.
Protected Designation of Origin (PDO)
Emerging from a thread on Kraft Parmesan cheese, the issue of Protected Designation of Origin (PDO) by the EU came up. According to Wikipedia, PDO means that "the entire product must be traditionally and entirely manufactured (prepared, processed AND produced) within the specific region and thus acquire unique properties". Such a qualification can happen when a product has not yet become a 'generic' term - so cheddar on its own was deemed too generic whereas feta was not and then given a PDO (meaning that cheese made outside of Greece can not be called feta within the EU).
I'm curious how Chowhounds feel about PDO for foods and beverages. I currently live in Jerusalem - and the notion that the feta can "only" be made in Greece appears ridiculous to me as it's a cheese that is present in a variety of forms in the Middle East, and that it's just a commercial regulation that has nothing to do with the quality of the cheese.
Anyways, I am interested to hear other opinions of PDO and additional positive/negative aspects of the restriction.
Foods you dislike buying—but sometimes need to
In the States, this is definitely my go to move. Go to the bins, get a small quantity of chocolate covered pretzels and happily go on my way.
But regarding something specific, I am now staring down a mostly filled box of S'Mores Poptarts that someone flew half way across the world for me feeling tragically guilty for not eating them all at once. On the plus side, they're not going to go bad....
Kraft "real Parmesan cheese"
I apologize if this sounds snarky - but ultimately then the point of this is economics/business and less to do with what's in the cheese?
I get that to preserve the basics of an item (like bourbon) a decision is made to qualify how much of a certain ingredient is in it. I have heard that Russia has tried to allow only vodkas made of a certain percentage of potato to be called vodka, and over the years after trying an assortment of potato and non-potato based vodkas - I think that that distinction is silly...but I get the idea of protecting a recipe. So, for bourbon it is a certain amount of corn, and that a certain percentage of sheep's milk is required to make it feta. And so no matter what Jack Daniel's or a 75% goat's milk feta tastes like, it doesn't fit the industry standard of the ingredients.
However, the fact that Jack Daniels is made in Tennessee instead of Kentucky is not why it fails to be bourbon. Such geographic boundaries I'm personally not sympathetic to based on my own views, but thank you for explaining the process.
Kraft "real Parmesan cheese"
I get the issue of wines where the grape indicates the region where it was grown and personally admit to not knowing enough about wine to judge the combination of the grape plus the soil of the region - but what is the thought process/logic behind limiting the name of a cheese specifically to where it's made? I currently live in the Middle East, and where I buy cheese there are an assortment of cheeses called feta that range from fat content, type of milk (cow, sheep, goat), and then a type of feta called "Greek" (not because I believe it to be from Greece, but rather just the style of the cheese).
I understand that bourbon is legally defined in the US by the percentage of corn contained, but thinking of feta - I am confused as to why it's being made in Greece would mean anything. The only thing that comes to mind is the issue of the hatch chile with New Mexico - where they want to legislate something regarding the status of chiles strictly from New Mexico, but mostly to do with maintaining revenue within the state. Not because a hatch chile grown in Mexico is any less of a hatch chile. A cheese made in Turkey that's 25% sheep's milk and 75% goat's milk isn't feta but in Greece it would be?
Foods you dislike buying—but sometimes need to
Completely agree on the chicken stock point. I prefer mine far more, but laziness/time/etc.
I also hate when I get junk food cravings and really want just a "taste" of the junk - but then end up with far more than I want. I currently live overseas and recently had a craving for s'mores pop tarts, which I shared with a friend who was able to buy me a box. While the first taste was a great reminder of home - I'm now stuck with the rest of them that I know I'll eat despite the wasteful fat/calories/sugar and all I ever really wanted was half of one.
Which cuisine is the most frugal in which to cook/eat by?
After reading some of the responses - I have to say that I believe the best answer has more to do with what someone is willing to do shopping wise than any specific type of cuisine.
I currently live in Jerusalem - and I can make a fairly wide variety of foods. However, the costs of accessing those ingredients in the cheapest fashion means a bit of traveling. Tel Aviv has a pretty high number of foreign workers from southeast Asia - and as such the cheapest Asian ingredients are found in certain neighborhoods there. Do that shopping in Jerusalem, and you're left with more upscale foreign food markets that are far pricier. Pork is also something that can be obtained relatively modestly priced if you find certain Russian butchers (located in Jerusalem) or travel to Beit Jalla (village near Bethlehem with a large Christian population).
And even with local ingredients, not just non-regional items, there's a balance. Local seasonal produce, local breads, and local grains in bulk are cheaper in East Jerusalem by the Damascus gate. More "exotic"/less seasonal produce and items like pasta, canned tuna, etc are cheaper in the West Jerusalem open market. And if you feel comfortable going into the religious Jewish neighborhoods - then those items are even cheaper there.
However, depending on how I want to limit trips (number of stores visited, parts of town - and some cases number of cities/villages) - then things are more expensive. And it's basically the same in the US. If you're willing to go to a food club, an assortment of ethnic food stores, open air/farmer's market and a grocery store - etc - then you can cheaply source a wide variety of ingredients from a wide variety of cuisines. If you're just shopping at Whole Foods - then no.
Savory Rubarb Recipes?
Where I live, Rhubarb appears to be in season - and while I'm a big fan of the pie, I was wondering if there are any savory dishes that people enjoy that utilize rhubarb.
Thanks!
Top Food Experiences in Israel
Regarding something not on your list - but seaside eating. If you make it to Akko - Doniana is an excellent place to eat in regards to being right on the water. And if you're there at the right time, you can see boys jumping off the old city walls into the Mediterranean as well as the waves hitting the old city. The food is completely decent, but nothing special - however the view is definitely special. A great place to go for some afternoon drinks and a snack if the weather is nice.
Top Food Experiences in Israel
This very recent thread http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/844093 covers Jerusalem and Tel Aviv in a lot of detail as well as the north. Also some of these areas will have overlap (Tsfat/Tiberias/Sea of Galilee) where the overall quality of the restaurant scene is much more hit and miss. Also with the Negev - your best bet for restaurant eating would be Ber Sheva - but there are also tourist companies that will give you the "Bedoin" experience (sleeping in a tent, the food, etc) in the desert which is enjoyable.
For the Dead Sea - aside from hotel eating I'm not sure if there is anything else. And it is hotel food. But if anyone has a suggestion I would be thrilled to hear them.
I am personally based in the Jerusalem area, and if you have any specific questions about eating in Jerusalem, I am happy to help.
hotel water in israel [moved from Kosher]
I've been living in Jerusalem for almost 4 years - and eating raw vegetables served by street vendors is no cause for any greater concern than raw vegetables served in a hotel beyond general stomach issues caused by traveling.
Depending on where you are located, however - often the tap water will taste funny. I know many people (native and expats) who live in Tel Aviv and strongly prefer bottled water to tap water. But it's more an issue of taste/older pipes rather than any concern over illness.
However, if you're really sensitive, then it might be best to rely on bottled water for drinking - but not to avoid tap water for brushing your teeth or raw vegetables.
Best and Worst of No Reservations
Best - Singapore
Worst - Egypt and Ireland. Though I have to say, both of my votes for worst are places that I've traveled to (Egypt) or lived in (Ireland). And I've always wondered if this is a trend - where the more you know a place personally, the worse the episode comes off.
Brussels recommendations
I was just about to post a similar post regarding dining in Brussels. I will also be there during Europe Day and wanted to ask if that just means that EU types will have the day off or if there is anything more significant (either restaurants closed or something worth checking out).
9 Nights in Tel Aviv
I personally like Barood more for (alcoholic) drinks and a snack than a proper meal.
The ramparts walk is my favorite way to see the Old City - and does end conveniently near the beginning of the Via Dolorosa. Also, near one of the stations of the cross is the Austrian Hospice, and it's great to go up to their roof at sunset. Perfect place for photos.
I personally wouldn't recommend the City of David tour - but to each their own.
And one more thing to add to your list, there's a private tour guide, named Jacobien who gives tours of Mea Sha'arim and the religious neighborhoods of Jerusalem. She's very good, very interesting.
9 Nights in Tel Aviv
After Ramadan, there should be no problem. There is Eid, (the holiday right after Ramadan) - so there would be no shame in asking your hotel in Jerusalem but the holiday is far more celebratory than "no work". There is also an Abu-Hassen location in Jerusalem should your Tel Aviv attempts not work. I am not at all familiar with Ramadan in Jaffa and how that works.
Regarding Nanushkah/Thai House - as it is August - while Nanushkah I prefer far far more, it is heavier food. Regarding food up north - I've never had an amazing "never had anywhere else" experience in a restaurant up north. And Tiberias is a big "meh". However ,there are great roadside stands to buy Druze labne/liters of olive oil. Greatest food experience I've ever had up north.
9 Nights in Tel Aviv
Ramadan this year is from July 21 through August 19. Plan accordingly!
9 Nights in Tel Aviv
You're going in August? Something I forgot about, but is really important in meal planning. You may be here during Ramadan, which means that any Muslim restaurant on that list will not be open during the day - but will be open during the night. Even in "serious" tourist places around the Old City, I would avoid any Palestinian/Arab eatery as you will most likely get price gauged and many of these restaurants will be running on skeleton staffs. Places like the Jerusalem Hotel (or any eateries connected to Hotels) will be open, but will be very very dead during the day. Places do open at night - and also there will be many stalls that sell Ramadan oriented food. So getting a falafel sandwich from a vendor might be difficult - but there will be lots of people around just selling falafel balls and kibbe in bulk for the end of fasts. Places will open at night - and for reservations the American Colony is in an excellent place to make recommendations.
Regarding places in East Jerusalem by the American Colony that are open during the day - the American Colony is located on Nablus Road, if you're walking towards the Damascus Gate the first side street on the right is called Abu Obeidah. On this street there is a small grocery store that is open during Ramadan and also sells prepared food (sandwiches, french fries, etc). But ultimately, for Ramadan afternoon dining - your best bet in East Jerusalem are the hotels - but I'd strongly recommend avoiding that all together. However, one good reason to be in East Jerusalem around sunset is that a cannon is set off when it's time to eat again.
Finally - the best eating experience at the American Colony is to have tea/coffee in the garden and have some of their freshly baked cookies. And one last suggestion - there is a wine bar on the roof of the Notre Dame which apparently has wonderful wine/great views.
9 Nights in Tel Aviv
For full disclosure - I've never eaten in Machene Yehuda, but I have friends who's eaten in both and say that the food in the places is very similar. I use the word "tapas bar" very loosely in the sense that the food is definitely upscale Mediterranean/Israeli and not Spanish, but the idea is more centered around ordering a number of smaller plates. Where the biggest difference is regards the vibe. Machene Yehuda is a proper sit down restaurant where you can make a reservation. Yudeleh is a bar that wraps around an open kitchen where the cooks are also the servers. Both restaurants are loud, but Yudeleh likes to give a more festive/bar atmosphere. However, if you're in a party of more than 4 - it's a bit difficult because there are no reservations and having six people stretched down a bar can be a bit awkward. That being said it's one of my favorite places in Jerusalem to eat.
For a Shabbat dinner, I highly recommend the Jerusalem Hotel for the atmosphere. They have live music and you have to have a reservation because parties stay all night dancing, smoking, etc. It's good Arabic style food (mezze/grilled meat) - but I'd stay away from the more Western options (especially the pastas). The Westside Jerusalem hotel Shabbat dinners I'm really not a huge fan of personally. The food is often good, but I find the atmosphere a bit dreadful. I really like Mona (not kosher, also open on Shabbat - great wine) and have never eaten at Lara. Dolphin Yam has great reviews, but is definitely more on the tourist side of dining.
I have also never been to Te'enim Vegetarian - but my roommate goes there all the time and really likes it. It also ranks very high on the atmosphere/view side (great old city views). With Abu Gosh/Majda....the food there is good - I'm just not sure exactly how worth it is regarding how you want to spend your time. Personally, I think the drive out there just to eat wouldn't be how I'd want to spend my time overall, but that's a personal preference thing.
9 Nights in Tel Aviv
Personally for visiting Tel Aviv, I'd remove the Thai House and replace it with Nanushka, a Georgian restaurant. While the Thai House has very good thai food, I don't think it's anything so amazing compared to Thai restaurants in the US/abroad and it's on the pricier side. As someone living in Jerusalem, getting to visit the Thai House is awesome - however if I lived in a US city where I had access to $7 padthai take away, I'd never bother with the Thai House.
And for Jerusalem - if you're really interested in hitting up lots of falafel, I have to recommend Bebo's falafel which is on Ben Sira and really close to the Mamilla mall (not to be confused with Ben Sira hummus restaurant). The style of Bebo's is Palestinian, and falafel is fried to order. They also have a great patio garden out back and is a nice mix of amazing falafel and a lovely setting. Also - depending on the 'style' of evening you want I'd mention Yudeleh which is across the street from Machene Yehuda and owned by the same people. Yudeleh is more of a tapas bar environment, really loud and fun (if that's enjoyable). Also - eating at the Jerusalem Hotel is best done on a Friday night (need reservations) when they have live music. Depending on the "East Jerusalem dining experience" you want - the restaurant at the Legacy Hotel offers really amazing views, similar prices - but it definitely feels like you're eating in a Hotel, unlike the Jerusalem Hotel which has a more "authentic" vibe.
Lastly, Scala is great.
Love the visual of it all....Pinterest
Personally, I don't use it at all to search other people's recipes - but I love using it to catalog the various online recipes that I use from different food sites. I use it far more to keep my online recipe "box" organized than I do for sharing purposes.
Why no Schadenfreude, Chowhound-style, over Bruni's announcement he has gout?
My mention of Bourdain has more to do with his mix of both being pretty aggressive in regards to Paula Deen and also his promotion of restaurant food that often is as unhealthy as Deen's recipes. (how many dishes at Les Hailles fit the definition of 'heart smart'?) And I'm not even saying that I wouldn't be inclined to defend Bourdain, but I think the whole "why Paula and why not Bourdain" debate would be more dynamic. As it is, I think that comparing Bruni to Deen is just a case of forcing an issue that is only interesting if you know nothing about it.
However, everyone from Bourdain to Bruni to Deen are all associated with unhealthy eating. Whether it's in a restaurant or deep frying mac n cheese at home. Where Deen becomes objectionable is that she's being paid by a drug company - but I also think that the public out cry is louder because she makes 'lower class food' and is a fat woman. That being said, if Bourdain also started writing about how he was diagnosed with a food related condition/illness - I would still be most sympathetic to Bruni because of his ongoing dialogue as a writer regarding his health.
Why no Schadenfreude, Chowhound-style, over Bruni's announcement he has gout?
Given Bruni's ongoing relationship with his reading public - especially marked in his book Born Round - he clearly has struggled with food, eating and his health his whole life. While most likely not a dietary role model, he is someone who's also been honest and upfront about all of his food/health issues. So that plus the fact that he's not the spokesperson for a drug make the response to him entirely different.
Though - had this been someone like Bourdain....I think the contrast in response would be more interesting to compare.
March Trip To Israel
Have to stress that Darna is a place that I would avoid. In Jerusalem, depending on the experience you want, across the street from Machene Yehuda (the restuarant) there is a tapas bar of sorts owned by the same people called Yeudeleh that is a lot of fun and has the same/similar food. Depends on the experience you want where Yeudeleh is a louder crowd that sits around the bar that looks in on an open kitchen where the cooks serve as both cook and waiter (and occasional musician).
Also, in East Jerusalem - the best place for an atmosphere/food experience is the restaurant at the Jerusalem Hotel. On Friday nights they have live music and is a great environment. It's also far more reasonably priced than places such as the American Colony hotel which is ghastly expensive. However, it is pretty and if you want the environment just go for the coffee (and free cookies - which if you're lucky arrive fresh baked and warm). For a more upscale East Jerusalem dinner, the Legacy Hotel is a much better deal and also includes great views over the East Jerusalem.
In the Old City, the Austrian Hospice is a great place to go for its view from the roof but also a great place to get Bavarian style cakes/coffee with great views. And for falafel in Jerusalem I recommend Bebo's on Ben Sira (close to where the Mamila Mall is). The falafel is made fresh to order as opposed to sitting around under a heating lamp and has a nice garden out back where you can sit and eat in case you're not interested in getting it to go.
And for Tel Aviv, my vote would be Nanuchka - which is a lovely Georgian restaurant. The Georgian food in Jerusalem isn't bad (there's Kangaroo and another place on Havatzelet Street), but is no where near as good.
Green pumpkin pie?
So for thanksgiving this year, my friend who made the pumpkin pie (with canned pumpkin) - it turned out green. Not pesto/kelly green - but like if someone had taken a basic pumpkin pie recipe and added a solid bunch of minced basil.
The pie was made with canned pumpkin - where the only ingredient listed was pumpkin. The canned good was made in the US but exported abroad (don't know if that might have an answer). Other than that the pumpkin pie filling/homemade crust had nothing "exotic" - to either pumpkin pie or ingredients found in our city. (In the Middle East, canned pumpkin and canned cranberry rank as 'exotic'). And the taste was completely expected for traditional pumpkin pie.
So - my question to baking and/or pumpkin experts is this: "What would make pumpkin pie tint green?"
Masterchef Australia vs Masterchef US
Sigh - I think you are right but what I find so disappointing is that the viable assumption regarding the 'generic' American viewer - is that there is just clearly such a disconnect with any kind of cooking that it's a quick acceptance of what any 'awesome' home cook can be expected to achieve.
