foreverhungry's Profile
Slow cooked pork shoulder not so tender
I think the key statement in there is "These guidelines do not apply to children under 7, the elderly, and the immuno-compromised."
That's why the gov't takes a more conservative view.
Neither myself nor those I typically cook for are immune compromised or elderly. I tend to cook to the lower end of the range, especially pork. I shoot for just cooked chicken.
If I was cooking for someone that was immune compromised, I'd be more conservative.
Slow cooked pork shoulder not so tender
Yes, in the range of smoker temps, right, it's not possible to slow the cooking process down that much. I was talking more generally. In theory, one could do a pig shoulder roast in a 170-180 degree oven, for 12-15 hours, and that would yield the same fork tender as the more traditional smoking at 250ish. If someone doesn't have a smoker, or doesn't want the meat smoked, then from what I understand, cooking at 180 for a longer time would be more preferable than 250 or 300 for a shorter time because the higher temperature would dry the meat out more, even though it's in the oven for a shorter period.
Cooks Ilustrated Shout Out to Minnesota's Jucy Lucy
Yes Db, good point. For those that enjoy well done burgers, then a JL is perfectly good. I used to eat my fair share of JLs, but lately I've been so fixed on being able to find a place that makes a great burger (as how I see it), that I don't waste my precious burger eating trips on JLs, saving them instead for the quest for the perfect burger.
So I just read an article that interviewed members of the Olivieri family. An uncle Pat invented the cheesesteak in the '30's. Back then, no cheese at all. A little while later, they started introducing cheese (American and provolone) to spice things up a little. When Whiz came out in the 50's, they started keeping a can of it on the grill, and customers started liking it. According to the Olivieri's, that's how Whiz caught on.
Cooks Ilustrated Shout Out to Minnesota's Jucy Lucy
bob s - you are completely correct. It seems it is an urban legend, one that I'd heard from several sources, several times. But just because something is repeated often, it doesn't make it the truth.
I did some digging, and came up with an article explaining the history of cheese on cheesesteaks from the Olivieris. http://articles.philly.com/2008-05-24/news/24990258_1_cheez-whiz-cheesesteak-frank-olivieri
Thanks for cluing me into the fact I had been unwittingly spreading a falsehood for many years.
Cooks Ilustrated Shout Out to Minnesota's Jucy Lucy
I agree that most town's "iconic" food isn't the best. I don't think anyone would argue that Philly's most iconic foods - the cheesesteak, the intersection soft pretzel that's been gassed by road fumes for hours, or scrapple - are anywhere near culinary art. For that matter, Philly offers a dozen sandwiches, hot and cold, that are leagues better than a cheesesteak.
Yet as someone that lived in Philly for 13 years, I always have a cheesesteak (among other foods) when I get back there. Because cheesesteaks do taste good when they're well made.
I'm afraid, though, that the same can't be said of a Jucy Lucy. I don't see any method of making a JL that results in a good burger, whereas at least a cheesesteak, when well executed, is a solidly good sandwich.
As for the Cheese Whiz - whiz isn't standard on cheesesteaks in Philly. There's no "standard" cheese. Different places use different cheeses, though "American" and provolone are the two favorites, with American the most popular. Only a few places use Whiz are their default, but most notably Pat's is one of them. The reason they started using Whiz is because the 9th St., Wharton, and Passyunk neighborhood where Pat's is used to have a high concentration of Jewish folks. From what I understand under Kosher law, meat and dairy can't be served in the same meal, or can't be cooked on the same grill, or something like that. So in order to served cheesesteaks for those observing Kosher law, they started using Whiz, since it's not dairy.
Cooks Ilustrated Shout Out to Minnesota's Jucy Lucy
I agree 100% with you on the JL concept. I don't understand the attraction of them either. It's a gimmick that makes good money for a few places. I agree that every one of BDP's would be better if made the traditional way. In one sense, the Jucy Lucy concept gives the ability for bad cooks to cheat, because they don't have to worry about cooking burgers to certain specifications. All burgers just get overcooked, which just about any bad chef can do easily.
From the CI perspective, yes, they're just giving people what they want, and for that, I can't fault them. Yes, you can take perspective that they should realize the JL concept is a crappy one, and not offer how to make a crappy (yet popular) burger at home. But that would be a hard stance to publicly defend without taking lots of flak.
Slow cooked pork shoulder not so tender
Good point, there is a difference between sterilization and pasteurization. But from what I understand (and I may be incorrect), sterilization eliminates all bacteria, whereas pasteurization eliminates all bacteria that can cause disease and food spoilage, so bacteria that are not involved in disease and spoilage may still remain.
If that's indeed the case, then the point is still to eliminate potential pathogens.
"Safe enough for consumption" also depends on who's doing the consuming. A small amount of pathogens may be fine for me, but could cause serious issues for someone that's immune compromised. That part of the reason the gov't builds in a safety margin for its recommendations, because it has to consider the population as a whole, and not only healthiest.
Cooks Ilustrated Shout Out to Minnesota's Jucy Lucy
I'm not sure how I feel about something like this. On the one hand, I'm not a Jucy Lucy fan, and would be very unlikely to make one at home.
On the other hand, there are fans of stuffed burgers, and a challenge is getting the inside melted without drying out the exterior. CI's method does a good job of preventing a dried burger.
I kinda see this as fitting in CI's mission. They provide recipes for the basics, but making those basics the best they can be. Some of those basics include stuff that folks eat when out, but may want to try at home - pizza and cheesesteaks, for example.
As for the photo, does any JL photo look appealing? Or even a JL in person? Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. In any case, I think it's still nice to see Minnesota getting some press time.
Slow cooked pork shoulder not so tender
scubadoo - not necessarily. It depends on time, also. Collagen can break down at lower temperatures, such as 160, if held there for long enough. 200ish is the target temperature most folks talk about because that's the fastest way to get the collagen to break down. If a pork shoulder was held at 160 for 10 hours, you'd get the same breakdown; but of course, it takes a lot longer, so few people use that method.
Slow cooked pork shoulder not so tender
Re 1point21gw - Research seems to suggest otherwise: http://ps.fass.org/content/62/7/1211.short
In this experiment, a Salmonella strain required a temperature of 165F for 2 minutes to be completely eliminated from eggs.
Killing bacteria is a complex relationship between acidity, osmolarity (salt and other ions), temperature, and time. The gov't recommends hitting 165 because assuming that the meat in question spends only a few seconds at the target temperature before the heat decreases, then a higher temperature needs to be hit than if the meat spends more time at temperature. 150F is sufficient to kill Salmonella, but only when held there for an extended period of time, which is unlikely.
Given the increase in frequency of Salmonella presence in many food products, and given that many heat-tolerant strains are proliferating, the gov't seems justified in calling for 165, just as they were justified in dropping the safe temp for pork products.
Cooks Ilustrated Shout Out to Minnesota's Jucy Lucy
Re: Jumped the Shark - you mean CI?
Cooks Ilustrated Shout Out to Minnesota's Jucy Lucy
http://www.cookscountry.com/recipes/Jucy-Lucy-Burgers/8586/?Extcode=L2EN4AA00
I may not be a fan of the Jucy Lucy, but it's still cool that CI picked it up and re-posted it - for the local home cooks.
Rusty Taco--First visit report
If you get the chance, check out Freestyle Yogurt next to Rusty Taco. I like their yogurt setup, and the flavors are fantastic. There's something like 50 flavors, but they rotate, and some are seasonal, so they 14 or so at one time. A ton of toppings (not sure how many). The owner is usually there, and he seems like a really nice guy, very personable and chatty.
Most of their flavors are non-fat, a few are lowfat, and some are no sugar added. And like your description of Pinkberry, for being non-fat, their flavors are fantastic.
Minnesota Road Trip
A couple of things. The big one is that the menus are different. The Highland location has a fuller menu with more options (more classic pizzas, more pizza biancos, more salads, etc.) than any of the other locations.
The second is service. When I went to the Uptown Punch, you ordered at a front area like you would at Davanni's, and then took a seat. Not a big fan of that style of service, unless it's fast food. If I'm going out for dinner, I'd like to be sat at a table, and have a server come around. Otherwise, it just feels like McD's.
The third is the ambiance. Highland is the original location. The servers wear jerseys from the Italian Serie A teams. There's some cool artwork on the walls. Personally, all those little things bring Punch together for me only at Highland. At the other locations, it just feels like getting pizza for lunch. Nothing wrong with that. But at Highland, with the Serie A jerseys, the walls, etc., it feels more like a meal out, even though it may be the same pizza.
About it being the same pizza...I'm not convinced the quality is the same across the board. But I'd also be perfectly willing to admit that my bias towards the Highland location for the above reasons may make me think that their pizza is better than at the other locations, when in fact it might be the same.
Lastly...I was really bummed when Punch opened their "NE" location, right down the block from Nea. I like Pizza Nea. It's not exactly the same as Punch, but I like it. I thought it was overly competitive of Punch to open a location 1 block away from another pizza joint of the same style. I'm glad Nea is still going strong, and crowded the times I've been recently. I can understand wanting to expand. But given that we don't have a ton of good pizza options, I don't want to see a scene dominated by one multiplying outlet.
For all of those reasons (some reasonable, others perhaps not so much to folks other than myself), I now stick to the original location. It's important enough that I would willingly drive past a different Punch location to get to the Highland one.
Minnesota Road Trip
If you like pizza, and are in the mood for Neopolitan style, try either Black Sheep Pizza (either STP or MPLS), Pizza Lola (South Minneapolis), or Punch Pizza (Highland Park location, I'd stay away from the other locations) (probably in that order, but that's just me).
Not sure what your burger & beer offerings are where you live in Ohio, or where your tastes go, but if you want an excellent burger with a fantastic beer selection, head to Busters on 28th, in South Minneapolis. All their food is excellent, but their burgers (and sweet potato fries) are outstanding.
You have both Piccolo and Saffron on your list. Neither are light on the wallet, but both are excellent, and ditto with Alma. If you have those, I'd put Bar La Grassa on that list as well. Be aware that those 4 need reservations ahead of time, at least 2 weeks (if not more) for a Friday or Saturday night meal.
You mention Kramarczuk's. Again, not sure what your Polish food availability is where you live, or your interest in it. If you're interested in stocking up on Polish goods, the best in town in actually Ziach Polish Foods, on 1625 Washington St. NE. While some folks confuse Kramarczuk's with being Polish, it's actually Ukrainian. Ziach is a Polish grocery store, not a place to eat lunch. But the Polish goods there are excellent.
Lastly, if you're curious about or hankering for Middle Eastern food, head up Central Avenue to Holy Land. Both eat in (lunch, not sure about dinner), and a great grocery selection also.
Looking for the Twin Cities Best Calamari, suggestions?
I'll throw in another one for Pazzaluna, for a happy hour, and given that it's a good deal and very a very good representation of the style you describe. Overall, I don't like the place, but yes, their calamari is very good. One of the best calamari's in that style that I've had was at Capitol Grille - one in Philly, not here in Minneapolis, but I'd imagine they'd be the same.
"Burch"
I'll bite and play devil's advocate. 1) I'm not sure I'd call the Lowry a Fail. For what it is (and personally, I think it shoots appropriately low), it hits its mark. Low. No worries there.
2) Rye - yup, sounds like it didn't do well. Ditto with with the redo of Figlio.
3) Yet the same Executive Consultant of the new Figlio hit Masu with a home run.
4) Your freinds in the the NE have so many better options - like what? Butcher Block and Masu? Sure. To be honest, I hesitate to call those the NE, at least as far as NE ethos goes. They're just across the river. The only decent restaurant that is solidly in the NE is the NE Social Club, which serves very good food. But the best that the NE has doesn't hold a candle to Uptown's best, Lucias.
Just my opinion.
reasonably priced brisket
Does anyone know if there is an appreciable difference in flavor of the finished product that is dependent on the "provenance" of the meat? Meaning, is cheap brisket the same as expensive brisket? Has anyone done a taste test? Not just "it should" or "it shouldn't" matter, but has anyone tried this?
I for one can tell a difference chickens, where the provenance of the bird does matter (cheap supermarket chickens don't have nearly as much flavor as chickens from Callister Farms or Katejan Farms chickens. There is a pronounced difference in pork - flavor and texture - depending on the supplier. Is the same true for brisket?
Just wondering....
How Do MSP restaurants compare to Chicago, Dallas, Miami, San Francisco Rests??
Quince - "I think that in terms of value, MSP is fantastic for fine dining."
In general, I disagree. There are some exceptions - Travail offers an exceptional value in their tasting menu. Piccolo, given the quality of the food, is a pretty good deal. And one can eat at Bar La Grassa and not spend a fortune.
On the other hand, Bar La Grassa is considered by many to be one of the top 5 restaurants in the Twin Cities. But take Bar La Grassa and plunk it in NYC, Philly, LA, SF, or Chicago, and you'd have a nice neighborhood restaurant, not a destination restaurant. Yes, top flight restaurants are more expensive in other cities, but then the quality of top flight food is much greater.
It's just an impression, but I think you can get BLG, Meritage, and Alma quality food in other cities at a similar price point.
bloody drumstick after cooking it in liquid for about 50 mins
This issue came up a few months ago by another poster. It's not blood. Sometimes, cooking poultry releases juices that contain myoglobin and/or hemoglobin, which would appear dark red-brownish-purplish. If your juices were near the bone, it sounds like the heat cracked the bone (or the bone was damaged during processing). The interior of the bone contains marrow, and is where red blood cells are made. Again, the meat was fully cooked, but the marrow started leaking it's RBCs out. This happens sometimes with whole chicken, with the pooling of reddish liquid in the cavity, which sometimes freaks people out. Same deal - RBCs or hemoglobin leaking out. Perfectly safe.
It's very hard to imagine a small drumstick not be over-cooked after 50 minutes.
How Do MSP restaurants compare to Chicago, Dallas, Miami, San Francisco Rests??
I agree with discus. For our market size, I think we do quite well, and perhaps on a "per capita" basis, MSP may be near the top. We're certainly blessed with some excellent talent. But I don't think we're in the same league as NYC, Philly, LA, SF, or Chicago. I don't know the restaurant scene well enough in cities other than those to compare MSP to.
That being said, there's a "Bar La Grassa" in virtually ever major city. While I consider it one of the best restaurants in MSP, I doubt BLG (or any other of our top 5 restaurants) would crack a top ten list in the bigger markets like SF, Chicago, NYC, and Philly.
Personally, I think the "locavore" issue is overblown. Yes, it's great if we can support the local food movement. But first and foremost, dishes need to be high quality and well executed. To that end, I don't care if the ingredients came from 1 mile away or 1000, as long as it tastes great. If it tastes great and it's all local, well, fantastic. But if it's local and is poorly executed, then being local doesn't matter much.
We have some very good individual restaurants. But as a whole team, I think we're going to get swept.
reasonably priced brisket
I've purchased excellent briskets from Von Hanson's, and from Everett's in S. MPLS.
Marinara/Red sauce/Tomato Sauce/Gravy Help?
Great question. Yes, everyone has their favorite marinara sauces, some "authentic" and some not. I've experimented with many variations on the issues you've raised, and while I don't have a set recipe, so every batch is a bit different, here's how I handle your specific questions:
1) Wine. The type of wine you use is very important, as much (if not more so) than the quality. Cabernet sauvignon is usually high in tannins, and while can be desirable while drinking, is not while cooking. Syrah's can be too fruity. There was a Cook's Illustrated piece on this a few years ago, you might be able to find their results. I try to use a Cotes de Rhone for cooking, something in the $10 range. It's a balanced wine made with several grapes. I find that balance does well in dishes, whereas single varietals (cab, merlot, syrah, zin, etc.) exaggerate their strengths to the point they are undesirable - there are exceptions for some dishes and techniques, but I find a Cote de Rhone always works well in a marinara. Yes, alcohol brings out flavors from tomatoes that are only alcohol soluble. But there's not a ton of alcohol in wine, and you don't want to turn your sauce into a wine sauce. I throw in about a 1/2 to 1 cup for 4 28oz cans whole tomatoes.
2) Duration - I shoot for 2-5 hours. Under that, I don't get the flavor development I want. More than that, I don't see a point.
3) Carrots and celery - Yes. Plus onion. For around 4, 28 oz cans of whole tomatoes, I'll throw in 1-2 carrots, each cut into 2-3 pieces, ditto with celery. 1 onion, quartered. After cooking, I pull the chunks out. That way you get the flavor (and importantly, the sweetening from the the carrot), without dealing with pieces in the final sauce.
3b) Meat - Yes, you didn't ask about this, but I have found this crucial. I throw in some mpork. Either a 1 pound hunk of shoulder, or some country-style ribs (both cheap). Maybe I'll brown the meat first to get some Maillard, and then brown the carrots/celery/onion, then throw in the tomatoes. Sometimes not. In either case, the meat adds a flavor depth to the sauce. I will never make a marinara that does not have a meat added.
4) Paste - sometimes yes. sometimes no. I don't know why some are opposed to paste, makes no sense to me. It's just concentrated tomatoes, so what's the big deal? Paste has umami flavor, like mushrooms and some meat. So why not? Adding it doesn't make it better, or worse. Just different. If you like adding a few TBS paste, fire away. Why not?
I use a mixture of whole and crushed. Add the elements above (sometimes browned ahead of time, sometimes not) plus the wine (plus a little garlic, and good amounts of black pepper and salt, and sometimes a touch of nutmeg). When sauce is done, I pull the chunks (onion, carrots, celery, meat), and blend the heck out of it with a stick blender. That way, I get all the flavoring, and a smooth sauce, without it being too "vegetably".
Type of Risotto for Roast Bison Shank
I'll respectfully dissent with the above suggestions for mushroom risotto. Seems meaty flavor overkill, especially since you likely want the bison shank to be the star. With a mushroom risotto, that seems like a lot of umami flavor, maybe too much.
I like both your original options. The milanese seems what would be a traditional pairing with that type meat dish. Though I like the lemon option - the brightness of the lemon would add a really nice bright element to a heavy-ish meat dish; I think the lemon and meat would contrast and pair really nicely.
Sausage making
The only potential issue is that the salt is contained in the salt pork, rather than being distributed throughout the entire forcemeat after it's ground. If you do a very course grind, this might mean your salt is only in the pieces of salt pork, and not combined with the shoulder and other spices. To be honest, I'm not sure if this will make a difference from a flavor perspective. But it might be more critical from a safety perspective. You may need to make sure you have no air in the casing, as air trapped in the casing provides an environment for bacterial growth. If the meat itself is low salt, this could enhance bacterial growth. If you plan to eat or freeze your sausages immediately, it's not an issue.
I'm also curious about the recipe - there's no liquid? Every sausage recipe I've used has some liquid - water, vinegar, wine, or a combination, that's been chilled. The AB recipe seems it would be very dry.
Scott Ja-mamas
Bayport is worth a visit. I agree that their brisket was the highlight of what we ate. The pulled pork was good, but it was slightly more mild in flavor than I prefer. It was good, but I just like a more robust pulled pork flavor. Their brisket, though, was fantastic, easily the best I've had in the area.
Scott Ja-mamas
baba - I agree that barbeque and grilling are not the same, but I don't agree that smoke needs to be present.
But GutGrease is right that there are many ways to cook ribs, and one way is smoked. It's not necessarily the best way, but it's one way. Latinpig's post implies (though I don't think LP necessarily meant to imply this) that ribs that aren't smoked aren't worth eating. That without smoke, ribs are just blah. I've had fantastic pork ribs that had zero smoke, but they weren't presented as BBQ. I don't see how anyone would say that ribs need to be smoked in order to taste good, given that smoking is mostly an American habit, and the French and Italians do some pretty tasty things with pork ribs, not to mention many Asian cuisines.
A Chicken Emergency.
A few thoughts:
1) Some can be poached (gently), and diced for chicken salad. This works for me really well.
2) An extension of this is to gently poach in a wine + vegetable combination, with the pan at a gentle simmer. Some water, white wine, a chopped up onion, carrot, celery, and perhaps some other aromatics (I've done fennel and/or Pernod), set at a lowest of low simmers, will gently cook the breast, add flavor, and leave it moist and tender.
3) I haven't had good luck braising boneless/skinless. Not enough fat and connective tissue, and it always comes out stringy. I suppose it's possible to braise to the exact point of doneness, but before the fibers get too hot, shrink, and squeeze out moisture, but then that takes a lot of pot watching, and negates one of the advantages of braising. This same thought goes for crock pot - in my experience, chicken breasts in a crock pot turn out stringy. It just gets too hot in a crock or braise, and tends to stay there for too long unless you watch it like a hawk.
4) I've had the best luck with S/B chicken breasts, other than gently poached, by adding spices or a marinade, putting in a shallow pan, covering tightly with foil, and baking. These actually turn out very well, with as much flavor as you can expect from a commercially produced lean chicken breast (which is not much), but at least the meat is moist and tender.
