scott123's Profile
Pizza - why high temperature?
Cowboy, my contention is that aluminum is entirely unproven and has no track record whatsoever. Out of about 2,000 home pizza makers that I've spoken with, no one's ever tried it. Until someone with more pizzamaking skills than Young and Blumenthal give it a try, I'm not recommending it. Silicon carbide has a track record for Neapolitan undercrust char at typical home oven temps- it's not fully fleshed out, but it has more history than AL. Steel has a very proven track record (for Neapolitan undercrusts) at safe, slightly modded (no cleaning cycle) oven temps.
I sincerely hope that, at some point, someone spends the relatively big bucks ($150ish for a 1" thick plate) for aluminum so we can see what it can do. Until then, though, silicon carbide and steel are much safer bets.
This is all kind of moot, though. You might have noticed that my previous posts reference Neapolitan 'undercrusts,' not Neapolitan pizza as a whole. Matching top heat to bottom heat for a 90 second bake from above is a function very few ovens can perform. Neapolitan top browning/leoparding requires incredibly powerful broilers, broilers that maybe 1 in 50 home owners possess. If one is a big Neapolitan pizza fan, then the first thing to do is check the broiler specs- wattage, btu, number of passes, etc (if you post them here, I can tell you if they're up to par). If you end up being one of the lucky 2%, then it's time to go hearth shopping for the kind of materials we're discussing or, if one is a bit more adventurous, using more extreme oven mods (such as cleaning cycles) with more traditional ceramic materials.
In other words, in my previous posts, I mentioned Neapolitan undercrust browning in reference to silicon carbide's history of use, not as a typical hearth requirement. When I talk about 1/2" steel plate it's primarily focused on the 98% of oven owners without Neapolitan grade broilers who's only option is NY style. For NY style, right now, in a 550 oven, 1/2" steel is gold. For NY at 500, that could be silicon carbide, or it could be aluminum, but I'd definitely try silicon carbide first.
Pizza - why high temperature?
Cowboyardee, in both the Modernist Cuisines and the press surrounding it's release, Chris Young (the author of the pizza section), makes some specious claims about Neapolitan bake times and different metals (including 1/4" steel plate). Chris also, like his mentor, Heston Blumenthal, wouldn't know great pizza if it bit him in the behind:
http://forums.egullet.org/index.php/topic/137365-can-you-make-authentic-neapolitan-pizzas-at-home/page__st__30__p__1792128#entry1792128
Modernist Cuisine is great for sous vide (and other areas of molecular gastronomy), but when it comes to pizza, it's really not much better than American Pie.
I'm not writing off aluminum completely, but, until I see it in the hands of a competent pizza maker, I can't get behind it. Conductivity is usually a good thing in pizza, but, in the case of aluminum, it's extreme conductivity might change the way the pizza bakes in some way. Silicon carbide has about half the conductivity of AL (167 vs. 255) and I'm not sure even that will work well for lower temp NY style bake times. I've seen silicon carbide do undercrust Neapolitan leoparding at 600, so it has no problem delivering heat quickly, but a NY style crust might need a more sustained level of heat.
Pizza - why high temperature?
While large NY style pizzas can be pretty magical, I think an 18" square plate is really all you need for a home oven. 18 x18 x 1/2 is 40 lb. A 40 lb. plate is still going to be a hassle to get in and out of the oven. I work with a 40 lb. hearth and leave it in the oven all the time, but it does require some tweaks to bake times/temps when I bake other foods.
This all being said, 1/2" steel is great for 550 deg. ovens or even 525, but, at 500, 1/2" steel isn't going to buy you a very fast bake time. 500 is really anemic.
Unless your oven runs on the hot side. I've seen a few ovens with 500 on the dial actually hit 575 temps in the oven. I would start off with a $20 infrared thermometer and see how hot your oven can actually go.
It's still a bit untested, but if you really want a light stone that will bake fast pizzas, and don't mind spending a bit, 3/4" silicon carbide looks very promising.
Or, you can go with a more traditional cordierite baking stone (3/4" or thicker) and cover the temperature probe with an insulating material to push the oven to 600. A hundred degree bump in temperature is pretty benign.
Pizza - why high temperature?
It's a little bit like popcorn. Popcorn needs extreme heat for the moisture inside the kernel to convert to steam, expanding rapidly and exploding the outer hull. If you cooked popcorn at a low temp, it would dry out and never pop.
With pizza, you don't don't have a hull containing this pressure, but the pressure of the expanding gases is still vital to the volume achieved in the baked product. Without intense heat, the gases don't expand as rapidly and you don't achieve the same volume/oven spring. Longer bakes produce denser crumbs. Dense crumbs are perfectly fine for bagels, but, for pizza, you want puff.
As you get into more advanced home pizzamaking, you learn that temperature is relative. It becomes less about high temps and more about high heat transfer and increased thermal mass. Certain materials conduct heat faster, so a thin $15 Walmart ceramic stone may give you a mediocre 12 minute bake @ 550, while a 1/2" thick piece of steel will give you phenomenal puffy pizza in 3 minutes. When you're aware of the properties of different materials, you can use them to your advantage and produce wood fired results in cooler home ovens- without pushing the home ovens to extreme temps or baking your pizza using a cleaning cycle- as some fanatics are known to do.
The limits are raw dough. As you increase the heat/heat transfer, you'll hit a point where the outside of the crust is cooked but the inside is still raw. In fast baked, less than 90 second Neapolitan pizza, this is called a gum line, and, while you can find some Italians that tolerate a little rawness, it is generally considered a massive defect. 45 seconds is the cut off point. Any lower than that and you risk the dreaded gum line.
Emile Henri pizza stone - opinions?
"If several ‘pro’ posters to this thread were correct in their theories, the Emile Henry pan should have been an absolute dismal failure."
If the person making the pizza can't produce something great, then every stone produces a mediocre result. Mediocre pizza is incredibly easy to make, with or without a stone. It would be like someone who doesn't know how to use a rolling pin testing different pasta flours. Without the right skill set, an experiment like this has no baseline.
"But I do think it’s absurd to hold that there is some sort of exclusive Ye Olde Tyme unshakeable traditional method for putting good home-baked pizzas together."
Give me 2 years. Seriously. This is my goal in life.
Emile Henri pizza stone - opinions?
Yes, it was an exceptionally weak test. Kenji has his heart in the right place and I value his contributions to other areas, but his pizzamaking skills aren't sufficient enough for judging the merit of a selection of stones.
Emile Henri pizza stone - opinions?
"I do not expect to be able to make pizza at home which is equal to that in the best pizzerias, I just want on occasion to make a decent pizza at home."
When the same expenditure will get you a stone that WILL make a pizza which is equal to that in the best pizzerias, why should you settle for something that gives you considerably less? Is this a food web site or an interior design web site? :) Great pizza should always outrank an aesthetically pleasing stone. You and your guests will be eating the pizza, not the stone.
Emile Henri pizza stone - opinions?
I have put in, on average, about 3 hours a day for the last 5 years, studying home oven thermodynamics as they relate to pizzamaking. I've also spoken to a minimum of 50 unlucky home oven owners unfortunate enough to own this stone. I've been weighing the merits of this product since I became aware of it a year and a half ago. There's no 'rushed judgement' here.
I'm curious, believe me ;) My 'curiosity' borders on obsession. I don't have an agenda here. I'm just trying to help the op make a more informed baking stone selection.
I do have a certain amount of commercial pizza oven knowledge, but that knowledge has played no part in the comments I've made in this thread. I'm comparing apples with apples. This is a bad apple- and a massively overpriced one to boot.
Emile Henri pizza stone - opinions?
I expect a certain amount of discomfort when I watch youtube pizzamaking videos, but that was especially painful. Like fingernails on a chalkboard.
A video like that could be more effective than waterboarding.
Emile Henri pizza stone - opinions?
A huge part of stone selection boils down to how serious you want to be about pizza.
No serious pizzamaker would ever take a hot stone out of the oven, nor would they ever think about cutting on their stone. You take the pizza out of the oven with a peel, you put it on a metal pan and you cut the pizza on the pan. That's pizzamaking 101.
Another aspect of taking pizza seriously is the need for thermal mass for fast bakes. This stone has no thermal mass. Functionally, it should perform just about the same as a $15 stone at Walmart. 1000s of people make mediocre pizza with a Walmart stone and are pleased as punch with their results. If you want to spend $50 for a stone that will give you mediocre pizza, go for it, but if you really want the best pizza possible, then you should avoid these worthless retail stones like the plague.
I purchased Guar gum as a thickening agent
Edaly, I posted that link, not as an endorsement, but as an example of how the commercial entities are approaching stabilization. I have no idea how well that product works or if that company is on the level. I do know, for certain, that none of the ingredients liste in the product are worth $30/lb.
Here's the background as to how I found the link- I thought I had read an article in Food Product Design that mentioned sorbet stabilizers, so I googled "Food Product Design" +sorbet +stabilizers, and, while the article didn't seem to show up, the link to that product did. I saw the gelatin in the ingredients and thought "hey, wouldn't it be nice to try gelatin?"
While I'm not that familiar with this particular stabilizer, stabilizers are pretty popular. I also looked through the different products they have on that site, and I have to admit, the technical baking/molecular gastronomy stuff looks tempting and seems to reveal a certain technical level of knowledge from the proprietors. In other words, I don't think you've spent 30 (60?) bucks on garbage, but at the same time, I think this is most likely at least triple the cost of the single ingredients so if you can cancel your order, I might suggest doing so.
Or not :) You seem really passionate about this. For something that you're really passionate about, $30 is not that much of an expenditure, and, who knows, it might bring your sorbet/gelato game to an even higher level.
I purchased Guar gum as a thickening agent
Manningnz, xanthan is renowned for it's resistance to shear (blending), but not guar. Vigorous blending might very well be slicing up/damaging the guar molecules, and, if that happens, you're losing it's stabilizing benefits. Hot water helps guar dissolve, as does overnight aging. You should be able to nix the blending and still avoid clumping- assuming that you incorporate the guar carefully (sprinkle very gently while whisking).
I purchased Guar gum as a thickening agent
Edaly, without the fat and milk protein and with the generally lower pH, sorbet has a very different chemistry to gelato. Without these extra components, there's a greater propensity for larger ice crystals and harder sorbets. You're also talking about a much more delicate flavor profile. Stronger flavored gelatos can generally handle the flavor masking qualities of a little starch, but I think you might want to scale back the starch even further for sorbet.
This particular commercial sorbet stabilizer
http://www.gourmetfoodworld.com/Technical-and-Molecular-Gastronomy/Cuisine-Tech-Sorbet-Stabilizer-Cremodan-64-Baking-and-Pastry-details-1460.asp
incorporates gelatin (and also a greater variety of gums).
"Ingredients: Gelatin, locust bean gum, cellulose gum, guar gum, whey protein concentrate & standardized with dextrose."
I think xanthan and guar are a good one two punch, so more gums probably aren't necessary, but the addition of gelatin might be worth a shot.
A big part of achieving a smoother sorbet/smaller ice crystals is freezing point depression. Your current stabilizer mix is giving you plenty of freezing point depression, but, should you decide to dial back the starch, you should be able to lower the freezing point by switching up your sweetener.
Monosaccharides such as glucose are superior freezing point depressors than sugar. Most Asian grocers carry packets of glucose (labeled dextrose). I wouldn't rely solely on glucose as your sweetener, but you might want to try swapping out some of the sugar with glucose. You can also use glucose to play with your sweetness profile, as most sorbets tend to be a bit overly sweet and glucose is only 60-75% as sweet as sugar by weight.
I purchased Guar gum as a thickening agent
Chiweichiu, I've been studying and working with gums for a few years and feel like I understand them a bit, but when it comes to ice cream chemistry, I could probably spend the rest of my life studying it and only scratch the surface.
The different insoluble fiber gums tend to thicken food in similar fashion, but there are differences. As discussed, xanthan has a much better resistance to shear than the other gums. All gums hydrate at different rates and have different assimilation strategies (some respond better to heat and/or time). Locust bean gum can get a bit beany in flavor. It can also form gels with xanthan.
Here are some good articles on gums:
http://www.foodproductdesign.com/articles/2009/10/locust-bean-gum-good-as-gold.aspx
http://www.foodproductdesign.com/articles/2011/10/stabilizing-frozen-products.aspx
Gums can occasionally have strange interactions, but, generally speaking, the greater the variety, the better. Xanthan + guar is better than either by themselves, and, conversely, xanthan + guar + locust bean is better than two. It really depends on the application, though.
Can you be more specific about the frozen dessert you are attempt to replicate? Do you have an ingredient list?
I purchased Guar gum as a thickening agent
Edaly, that's some really nice looking gelato. I was expecting that you might need to tweak my suggested amounts, but it looks great the way it is. I was watching a food show where Ciao Bella gelato was featured and your gelato looks better than that.
KettlePizza!
Don't waste your money.
Grill scenarios, with bottom heat sources, always have top heat issues- the bottom of the pizza will bake/brown faster than the top. To compensate for this, you want to lower the ceiling on the grill (usually by adding a false ceiling) NOT elevate it with an insert. The further the ceiling is from the pizza, the less radiant heat it gets, the less top browning.
This under-researched contraption will guarantee pizzas with white, undercooked tops and black undercrusts- every time.
I purchased Guar gum as a thickening agent
YankeeLaker, no offense, but what you're describing to me, even with the lumpy issue resolved, doesn't sound that palatable. As much as it's not something that I'd gravitate towards personally, I'll still try to work within your paradigm.
I would normally say that time resolves all gum clumping issues, but your water activity in this case is so low that you might need more than just time. In my experience, if clumps do occur, additional whisking isn't much of a help, so the electric mixer isn't bringing anything else to the table. Xanthan has a special attribute that differentiates itself from other gums- it has excellent resistance to shear. When blended, the molecules elongate and the mixture thins, but when the blending stops, the molecules retangle and the mixture thickens again. I'm not necessarily saying that blending is the answer, but between a blender and a mixture, I'd go with the blender first.
Before you blend, though, let's look at the dispersion. When you say 'sift' are you talking about an actually sifter? A typical sifter might let the xanthan pass through at a pretty fast rate. The best way I've found to disperse xanthan in liquids is to measure it with a spoon, and with one handle whisking like crazy, very very gently sprinkle it with the other hand. You're literally trying to sprinkle as little xanthan on top of the liquid as possible- almost like a hand tremor. It takes some coordination to get use to because you've got one hand going like crazy while the other hand is barely moving.
Heat does play a role in clumping, although I'm not sure warm water is going to buy you that much better results than cold water. Gums in solution, when brought to a boil, don't gelatinize like starches do, but the additional heat increase water activity and the water activity helps dissolve the clumps.
Are you certain that the cellulose isn't clumping? I'm never worked with micronized cellulose, but I did work with carboxymethylcellulose (CMC) once and while it didn't clump like gums do, it did clump (and it also seemed a bit slimy).
Since I've never worked with micronized cellulose, I really can't say how much to use. I do know that I tried to prepare a very high ratio xanthan gum solution in advance for use in cooking, and the result, in it's pure form, was unedible slimy goop.
Regarding assimilation using time- when I did the experiment above, within about 2 days I started seeing green growth. Xanthan solutions have pretty poor shelf lives. Overnight is fine, but I wouldn't go to far past that. Boiling might help, both from assimilation perspective and shelf life perspective.
Out of all the assimilation options, I'd probably try bringing the pre-cocoa mixture to a boil, letting it cool, adding the cocoa and then refrigerating it overnight. If that doesn't work, then I'd give blending a shot- perhaps with a hand blender.
One other thing to consider is that, being pure fiber, as you increase the intake of xanthan, digestive issues can occur. As you move into the quantities of xanthan per serving that you're talking about here, you could be seeing some GI effects.
Lastly, one other thing that I noticed was your choice of sweeteners. Sucralose does strange things with cocoa/unsweetened chocolate. You basically add a little and it improves a tiny bit, but, as you continue adding sucralose, you hit a wall and the bitterness of the chocolate never really fades. When working with chocolate, combining sweeteners is critical. I'm a big fan of a four sweetener mix- sucralose, acesulfame potassium (ace K/Sweet one), erythritol and polydextrose.
At a minimum, combine the sucralose with ace k (using mostly sucralose). Erythritol and polydextrose get into strange areas when it comes to counting calories because they only partially digest. Erythritol's caloric impact is close to zero while polydextrose is a little bit above that but still negligible. The best thing about polyd is that it brings sugary texture- and texturally, your pudding needs all the help it can get. Polyd has also, in the past, been marketed as a fat replacer. I don't completely subscribe to this concept, but, then I've never really put it to the test.
Be aware, though, if you look at calorie tables, both erythritol and polyd will clock in with the same calories as sugar. This is because, if you take a bunsen burner and burn erythritol or polyd, you'll get out the same calories as sugar, but the calorie tables fail to incorporate the lack of digestibility of these items.
Pizza Oven
A lot hinges on the type of pizza you're looking to bake. If you're looking for an authentic Neapolitan pizza, then it helps to have an oven with particular characteristics- characteristics that lend themselves more towards pizza than bread, such as a lower ceiling. Most wood fired ovens, be they pre-fab or plans, have ceilings more geared toward breadmaking than pizza making.
You can make Neapolitan pizza in almost any WFO, but it gets a lot harder as the ceiling height increases.
I purchased Guar gum as a thickening agent
Coldness impairs your ability to taste- hence the typical recommendation to use enough flavoring that ice cream base is too flavorful at room temp.
It's going to take some trial and error to dial it in, but I'd recommend starting with:
1/3rd your normal quantity of cornstarch +
1/4 the guar (1/2 t. for 2 quarts) +
equal amount of xanthan gum (1/2 t.)
This shouldn't be slimy, but you may have to adjust it a bit for proper consistency.
One major advantage that gums have over starch is that they don't mask flavors.
I purchased Guar gum as a thickening agent
Even when combined with the dry ingredients, it's still important to use agitation when adding guar to liquid. Sprinkle and whisk dry into wet. Time will remove lumps as well, so if you're chilling the mixture overnight, it doesn't need to be flawless.
Certain brands of guar have a beanier taste than others. Xanthan has no flavor, and, when combined with guar, has a synergy, so you can use less of both.
Gums are slimy, plain and simple. This is why you should never rely solely on gums for stabilization/thickening. As a component of the stabilizing cocktail, though, they work beautifully. Try cornstarch, xanthan and guar- together they will be superior to either cornstarch or guar alone.
Pizza Stone Corn Meal Question
It really depends on how you define 'interfering.' Parchment is wood based, and wood is an insulator. That fraction of an inch of cellulose pulp will have a slight impact on the bake time.
More importantly, though, pizza baked on parchment paper has a different surface on the undercrust- almost like the smoother surface of pizza baked in a pan. There are many who prefer the rougher surface of pizza baked on a stone- to this group, parchment paper is interfering.
Looking for recs in Randolph-Morristown area
I stopped going to the Saffron buffet about a year and a half ago because the heat level was too high. Lunch really shouldn't be a painful experience. I then started going to Cinnamon, which, at the time, was top notch. Unfortunately, Cinnamon's star, to me, has faded. The goat/lamb choice has always been tough/unedible, but the chicken options were usually pretty good. Now, the chicken is barely passable. And the veggies, don't get me started on the veggies. They used to do an amazing gobi. Not any more. Nobody in the state touches their gulab jamon dessert offering, but I can't go to a buffet just for the dessert.
Long story short ;) if you're still vouching for Saffron (which, other than the heat level was always very good), I'll give it shot.
Man, do I miss Moghul (Morristown). At the top of it's game, nothing could touch that Sunday buffet. Mehndi wishes it could be Moghul.
DiFara Pizza coming to Red Bank, NJ
DiFara's is pizza theater. It's about watching Dom Demarco lovingly take about 15 minutes to top a pizza. It's the Demarco Disney World ride. Take away Dom and all you have left is minimally fermented (1 to 2 hours) bland dough (by NY standards) with good toppings. It's not the toppings that make the pizza, but the crust. Ask anyone that knows anything about breadmaking and they'll tell you that you can't make great bread (or a great crust) in 2 hours. There's no time for any flavors to develop.
If they go with a Fish oven, like they did in the Las Vegas location, the crust will suffer even further because of the longer bake time. A Fish oven will never give you the kind of char that Dom's relic 700+ degree ovens provide.
With Dom, Difaras is entertaining but mediocre. Without Dom, it's just a name. What you're seeing as an exciting new beginning is really an end of era- an era based largely on theatrics and hype, not on great food.
How would you clean a GLAZED pizza stone?
If you've got an oven/grill that can reach 750, then just bake it off. 600 will do the trick.
L&B Spumoni Gardens type pizza in NJ?
Mr. Bruno's in Lyndhurst does a Brooklyn style Sicilian.
http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/03/lyndhurst-new-jersey-mr-brunos-pizzeria-review.html
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16664.0.html
ISO Lebanese Pizza Dough Recipe
Joseph, no offense to Todao, but I can direct you to countless online mediocre pizza recipes that fail to recognize the importance of bake time. Same thing for Naan. In commercial settings fast bakes serve two purposes. The first is economic- you're not going to sell much naan if it takes 10 minutes to bake. The second purpose, as discussed, is the superiority of the end product. Fast heat transfer translates into better oven spring. It produces a flat bread with an inner and an outer 'life.' As you extend the bake time, you end up with a dense, dry, lifeless product.
Every professional baker in every culture understands the impact that bake time has on flat breads and goes to great lengths to build ovens to achieve these means. The home baker, and, more importantly, the cookbook author that writes for home bakers, generally has no clue about what makes great flat bread. Instead of looking at these ancient techniques that produce breads that people adore and finding ways for the home baker to achieve those same ends, they just settle for complete and utter mediocrity.
And I'm not talking about cutting the lock on your oven so you can use the cleaning cycle to bake flat bread, building your own wood fired oven, or something else as dangerous, time consuming and/or costly. There are proven methods and proven materials for home bakers to safely and cost effectively achieve commercial flat bread bake times and results. You can't walk into Williams Sonoma, Bed Bath and Beyond, or Walmart and buy a stone that will give you fast bakes, but, with a little more effort, you can get a stone that will achieve these ends. The first piece of the puzzle is your oven. Different types of ovens (electric, gas w/ a top broiler, gas with a separate compartment for broiling) require different approaches.
ISO Lebanese Pizza Dough Recipe
Flat breads, regardless of the culture from which they're derived, not only hinge on a good recipe, but on a good oven setup. Extend the bake clock and flat breads fail.
If you want to do Lebanese pizza justice, get the bake time to less than 5 minutes.
Which is better for making hummus: Immersion Blender or Food Processor?
+1, but -1 on the tahini :) The dry nut solids in the tahini, once they hit water, will swell and thicken the hummus, making it harder to blend.
The easiest way to keep it moving is to use a tall, vortex friendly blender, blending the right amount of hummus at a time (about 1/3 the carafe), and using still slightly hot chickpeas and a little bit of the hot cooking juice. If using canned chickpeas, warm them in saucepan with water.
Transfer the puree to a container, and, once it has cooled a bit, add the lemon juice, tahini and garlic. After it's been thoroughly chilled, it will be stiff enough to hold a knife straight up. On the other hand, if you blend chickpeas at room temp, and add enough water so they keep moving, by the time they cool, they'll be too loose.
Poll -- What foods/food items do you prefer commercially made?
High temperatures for pizza certainly help, but they aren't essential. With the right stone, better than pizzeria quality NY style pizza can be made at home. Now if you're going to Keste... that's a different story. Neapolitan pizza is a lot harder for the home chef.
