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Dutch oven to bake no-knead bread

LOL...thanks for the info...

Mar 31, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

Dutch oven to bake no-knead bread

Thanks again. I have not noticed a change in taste using the hi-maize, but I'm only putting in 2 - 2.5 ounces per 15oz loaf. I also throw it into my fruit and yogurt smoothies.

PS..When you bake bread in the round cake pans, how long do you leave the bowls over the cake pans? Do you take the bread out of the cake pans to brown up the sides and bottoms, or is that not needed?

CI suggests spraying the parchment with non-stick spray, I found that doing that when using non-stick Reynolds Wrap parchment that it actually made the bottom get kind of burnt. I no longer spray the parchment. CI also suggests that you spray the do, and I do not do that either. I might try brushing with some extra light or mild olive oil though. Do you ever brush on additional water or oil?

Mar 31, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

Dutch oven to bake no-knead bread

Like you, I also found the CI recipe too dry. In addition, I just made two loaves of white flour only bread using the CI recipe (w/ additional water); one with the water + beer + vinegar and one with water only (adjusted for leaving out the beer and vinegar), to see if I could taste a difference in regards to 'tanginess'. I prefer bread w/out tang. Regarding the AB5M, I assumed the initial loaf would not be too tangy, but I am worried that if the dough stays in the fridge for 7 days or so that it would be too tangy for my taste.

Regarding healthy loafs, I've been experimenting w/ white whole wheat flour (don't like regular whole wheat) + bread flour + vital wheat gluten + wheat bran + hi-maize non-resistant starch (for added fiber) and I liked the initial results. I need to grab some oat and rye flour so that I can try some additional combinations. I'm new to baking bread, so I've got all sorts of combo's I want to try out. My goal is to make a high-fiber loaf with some whole grains that doesn't taste bitter or tangy, preferably w/out adding any sweeteners like honey or maple syrup, etc.

Thanks for the information, and please feel free to offer any tips or suggestions!

Hi-maize Resistant Starch:
http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/hi-m...

Mar 31, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

Dutch oven to bake no-knead bread

I'm usually pretty good about comparing prices and I know that I checked Amazon.....just looked on Amazon and they don't even have the Tramontina 3.5 qt. DO. However, I know that some products come and go on Amazon, so I am NOT saying that you are mistaken.

Okay, I went back and looked at your earlier post... Lodge pre-seasoned non-enameled DO's are $35 on Amazon and the Lodge enameled 3qt. is $44.

Mar 31, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

Dutch oven to bake no-knead bread

How high are the loafs? Do you use a fairly dry dough? The typical No Knead Bread dough is pretty wet and I would think it would not hold its shape and flow over the pan. Obviously, the dough you are mixing up is not flowing over the edge of the pan, is that because it doesn't rise very much, it is a fairly dry dough or some combination of those two. Do you use the CI recipe of 15 ounces of flour and 10 ounces of liquid (7oz water + 3oz beer + 1tbsp vinegar)? I usually have to add 2 - 4 more ounces of water, depending on the type of flour that I'm using.

I made one batch of the Artisan Bread in 5 minutes with my son, but I never got to taste it. He said it was good, and I think I'm going to try a few batches as it seems like less work and much easier in regards to planning ahead. My concern is that it supposedly takes on a 'sourdough' quality the longer it stays in the fridge, and I hate sourdough!

Mar 31, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

Dutch oven to bake no-knead bread

How high are the sides of your cake pans? What temp. do you use?

Mar 30, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

Dutch oven to bake no-knead bread

I'm quite happy with my 3.5 qt Tramontina DO from Walmart. $39.86 and free shipping to your local store. I replaced the knob with a $3 metal knob from Lowes. I've baked bread at 500+ degrees (checking out different temp/crust relationships) w/out any problems. 3.5 quarts is the perfect size for the Lahey/CI 15 ounces of flour loaves.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Tramontina-3.5-Qt.-Cast-Iron-Dutch-Oven-Green/5716476?sourceid=1500000000000003260370&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=5716476

Katom has a 6 qt. Lodge enameled Dutch Oven for $48.75 and a 7.5 qt for $62.50. However, you have to pay shipping which is around $18; if you are ordering other items, the marginal cost to add the DO is only a couple of bucks.
http://restaurant-supplies.katom.com/...

Mar 28, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

No Knead Dutch Oven Bread ?

It's on the list ;)

Mar 13, 2011
sawdin in Home Cooking

No Knead Dutch Oven Bread ?

I was in a bookstore last week and I took a look at Jim Lahey's "My Bread: The Revolutionary No-Work, No-Knead Method", and copied the modifications for making pancetta bread. I didn't copy his recipe for basic bread, but the Bittman article lists it as:

3 cups all-purpose or bread flour, more for dusting
¼ teaspoon instant yeast
1¼ teaspoons salt
Cornmeal or wheat bran as needed

Here are his modifications for pancetta bread:

Add 300 grams pancetta or bacon; 1/4" dice, then brown.
Reduce salt to 1/2tsp
Add 1Tbsp fat of the drippings from crisping the pancetta/bacon.
1/4red pepper flakes (optional)

Mar 13, 2011
sawdin in Home Cooking

No Knead Dutch Oven Bread ?

Touching the dough as little as possible seems to be quite important. Lahey, CI's and the No Touch - No Knead online blog (http://www.nokneadbread.org/2-my-noto...) all stress that, but it's nice to also get affirmation from other 'home bakers'.

Thanks for the tips!

PS...On the amount of water, on all three loaves that I've made, I've had to use more water than what the CI recipe calls for. On the King Arthur site, they note that if you use hi gluten flour, you'll need to increase the amount of water.

Mar 13, 2011
sawdin in Home Cooking

No Knead Dutch Oven Bread ?

King Arthur's bread flour is 12.7% and their Sir Lancelot hi gluten is 14.2%, but I think their percentages are higher than most brands.

Mar 13, 2011
sawdin in Home Cooking

No Knead Dutch Oven Bread ?

I agree, best to only make one change per loaf if you want to know what the effect of the change is. Thanks for the info on using olive oil; I'm not sure I'd like the taste, but I think some good friends would.

Mar 13, 2011
sawdin in Home Cooking

No Knead Dutch Oven Bread ?

Hi Chem,

Yes, just getting into the NKB. I made another loaf today and put aluminum foil on the rack below the DO and I did not use any non-stick spray on the parchment paper; result, no burning. The crust was much softer, but I think that was due to my making a very different loaf (white whole wheat, whole wheat, high gluten and a little bit of Hi Maize Resistant Starch for extra fiber). CI's says to use All Purpose, King Arthur says to use their high gluten flour. I know what using all AP gives me (my first two loaves), so my next two loaves I'll do one with 100% high gluten flour and the other using 100% bread flour. I think that will give me a good baseline as I'll have done loaves using 100% AP, 100% hi gluten (KA Sir Lancelot hi gluten) and 100% bread flour. My goal is to come up with a combination that has more fiber and whole grains than a straight white bread, but I don't really like the taste of 100% whole wheat. I'll probably do a loaf w/ 100% King Arthur White Whole Wheat just to get a baseline on that too. I thought I'd try to get lucky w/ the loaf I made today, but I didn't like the result (not crusty enough, smaller crumb and 'wheaty' taste), but I'm not sure which flours did what, so that's why I'll do some 'baseline loafs'.

I've read about dusting w/ cornmeal, but if I keep getting good results from not spraying the parchment, I'll probably just stick with that.

Do you use a thermometer to check the final temp? I have a quick read from Thermoworks (not the thermapen), but it's not a remote. I'll probably pick up one of their programmable thermocouple hand-held units that has two channels as I can use that when doing a high heat roast/turkey, grilling and maybe smoking, if I pick up a smoker for the summer.

Yes, it's fun experimenting. I recently read somewhere that coating the DO with oil (e.g., olive oil) will impart some additional flavor to the bread. I would think the EVO or 'pure' olive oil might burn, though maybe extra light wouldn't as it has a higher smoke point. I would think just mixing it in like you do would be easiest.

Honeyville sells the Hi- Maize flour (5lb) and King Arthur sells a 'blend' with hi maize (3lb). KA claims their blend has 20 grams of fiber in a cup, 40% more than their whole wheat flour. I'll slowly add it in once I get a good combination of other flours. My guess is that I'll end up w/ 2.5 - 3.5 ounces blended into a loaf that has a total of 15 ounces of flour.

Hi Maize 260:
http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/hi-m...

Thanks for the tips!

Mar 12, 2011
sawdin in Home Cooking

No Knead Dutch Oven Bread ?

Thanks for the tips!

Mar 12, 2011
sawdin in Home Cooking

No Knead Dutch Oven Bread ?

Thanks, I'll try parchment w/out oil, then no parchment, and if that doesn't work, I'll drop the starting temp. Even if I get rid of the browning/burning on the bottom, I think I'll drop the starting temp to see what that does to the rest of the crust.

Mar 12, 2011
sawdin in Home Cooking

No Knead Dutch Oven Bread ?

I made my first two loaves of No Knead Bread in a Tramontina 3.5 qt DO ($40, online only, ships free to store; the KitchenAid 3.5 qt. is around $80) last night. The last time I baked bread was, oh, 30+ years ago. I used the recipe from Cook's Illustrated:
http://www.cooksillustrated.com/recipes/detail.asp?docid=11829

and the techniques from:
http://www.nokneadbread.org/2-my-noto...

The loaves were fantastic; nice crisp crust and very chewy. I let the dough rise for about 12 hours, did a no-touch knead, let them rise for another four hours, did a final no-touch knead and let them rise for another two hours. (Supposedly, doing two quick no-touch kneads will result in smaller holes in the bread, rather than large holes, and I did not want huge holes.) The first loaf, I pre-heated the DO to 500 and then left the temp at 500 for 25 minutes before lowering the temp to 425. The internal temperature only hit 206, not the 208 or 210 that is recommended, but I took the loaf out as the crust was beginning to get a little too dark for my liking. The second loaf I pre-heated the DO to 500, then lowered the temperature to 425. I took the loaf out at 207 as once again the crust was getting a bit too dark for my liking, and the bottom was again a bit burnt. Fortunately, the bottom can be easily scraped.

Question:
If I place a piece of aluminum foil directly under the DO, will that reduce the direct heat to the bottom of the DO and thus prevent the bottom from browning too much? Would it be better to place the aluminum foil on a rack about 2" below the DO? I have the DO on the bottom rack of an electric oven.

In addition, both CI and the other site suggest that you use a parchment sling sprayed with non-stick spray for the final rise and inside the oven. I used parchment paper that is not supposed to need additional spray or grease, but sprayed it anyway as instructed in the recipes. Could the non-stick spray be causing the burning? I used Reynold's premium parchment, which is rated to 425. I have a re-useable parchment paper that is rated up to 500 degrees, but I'll need to cut it down a bit and wanted to wait until I had done a few loaves and new the proper dimensions.

TIA for your assistance!

PS... I mixed the ingredients for the first loaf in a 4 qt. round Camwear container, which has a top diameter of 8 3/16". I needed to add quite a bit of additional water in order to incorporate all the flour. For the second loaf, I mixed the ingredients in a much larger steel bowl in which I could spread out the dry ingredients before adding the liquid. Doing it this way, I only needed to add a little bit of extra water, and the mixing was much easier. The second loaf was about a 1/4" higher ( 4" high) than the first loaf and a little bit 'airier', less dense. The second loaf is on the right in the picture.

Mar 12, 2011
sawdin in Home Cooking

The ultimate way to season cast iron, per Cook's Illustrated

Sueatmo:

Curious, do you have any carbon steel pans? I recently purchased 2 and so far, so good. Very, very easy to season and use. You've probably seen all the threads on here.

Best wishes~

Mar 11, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

New Carbon Steel Pan: Plan to boil potatoes then use Canter's high-heat Flaxseed oil seasoning method.

Thanks for the advice!

Feb 22, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

Why bother stripping cast iron when you can buy a new pan for so little money?

Oh well, I tried ;)

Feb 21, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

Why bother stripping cast iron when you can buy a new pan for so little money?

If anyone thinks I don't know what I'm talking about, and that I have no idea what the difference is between a nice old Griswold and new Lodge, feel free to educate me. Just contact me and I'll give you my mailing address and you can send me your old Griswold to prove how dumb I am!
;)

Feb 21, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

Why bother stripping cast iron when you can buy a new pan for so little money?

Bingo! If I had the choice, I'd take an old Griswold that was in good shape. But after looking at the prices on ebay for a Griswold, and not knowing for sure if the skillets on ebay were level, not pitted, etc., I bought a new Lodge. If I stumble across a nice old CI in my travels, I'll grab one, if not, I'll survive.

Feb 21, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

Why bother stripping cast iron when you can buy a new pan for so little money?

I agree. I think I tried to relay in my post that even if you strip (which I did not do) and season using Canter's (or anyone other method), you are not going to match how an old pan looks, and probably not how it cooks right off the bat, as the key is to USE THE PAN and build it up over time. For me, it would take forever b/c I won't use it on a regular basis, so I did what I could to 'jumpstart' the process.

Feb 21, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

New Carbon Steel Pan: Plan to boil potatoes then use Canter's high-heat Flaxseed oil seasoning method.

Title says it all. I just received a Paderno carbon steel frying pan (cheaper than de Buyer and I had credits at CSN) and plan to follow the de Buyer's method for preparing a new carbon steel pan. I will then continue to season it using Cheryl Canter's method for seasoning CI. Why go to the bother? Because I probably will not be using it on a regular basis and thus it might take months to properly season it by just cooking in it, so I figured why not just get it done (or rather, get a good head start) by using Canter's method (which I had pretty good success with on a new Lodge CI pan) after boiling the potatoes.

Please feel free to share any thoughts or suggestions.

PS..I'll post some pics and share my experience. Based upon seasoning the Lodge CI, after I season the Paderno, I'll just heat up the pan with Crisco, let it cool and repeat throughout a day, then start it off with bacon.

de Buyer video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_hcah...

Feb 21, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

Why bother stripping cast iron when you can buy a new pan for so little money?

I know some (most?) people will disagree, but there are people who claim that the new pans can be just as effective as an older pan. For example, Kenji Lopez-Alt who writes the "Food Lab" over at Serious Eats has posted the following:

Modern cast iron is bumpy like this because it has not been polished the way old cast iron has and retains some texture from its mold. Some people claim and that it's not possible to season these bumpy pans properly. I don't buy it. I have compared my shiny, totally smooth 1930s Griswold (acquired at a flea market) to my 10-year-old Lodge skillet (which I bought new and seasoned myself) and have found no significant advantages with the old pan, other than the fact that I didn't have to season it to begin with.

AND:

Vintage Wagner/Griswold's have smooth surfaces because they were polished after casting, which is no longer done because a) it costs a lot, and b) it's unecessary. The smoothness of a pan at the visual level is not what dictates its nonstick characteristics—it's the inconsistencies at the microscopic level that matters. An unpolished pan will become just as nonstick as a polished one given enough time to season it properly. If you really like that totally smooth finish, you can always buy a cheaper modern pan and polish it with sandpaper before you start seasoning it. You'll get a nearly identical pan in performance and appearance for a fraction of the cost.
http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/06/how-to-buy-season-clean-maintain-cast-iron-pans.html

PS..From what I've read, don't bother trying to sand a new pan as it can be quite a chore. If you want that smooth polished bottom, either get an old pan that was polished or be prepared to wait quite a while as you scrape down the bumps on a new pan over time using a metal spatula when you cook. Look about 3/4 of the way down on this page:
http://www.richsoil.com/cast-iron.jsp

I just bought a new Lodge, washed it to get any gunk out of it and then seasoned it using Cheryl Canter's method (flaxseed oil at high heat in the oven).
http://sherylcanter.com/wordpress/2010/01/a-science-based-technique-for-seasoning-cast-iron/

I've cooked eggs that didn't stick, and usually clean the pan using Alton Brown's salt method.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z3c3_...

Is it as good as an old pan that has been seasoned for years? Nope. But I didn't have to go searching all over the place for an old pan that was in good condition and didn't cost quite a bit more than a new one. You can find some inexpensive ones, usually not Griswolds, on ebay, but you need to make sure it sits flat, doesn't wobble, have pits, cracks, etc. If I came across a nice Griswold (or other old pans) that was in good condition, I'd probably buy it, but I'm not going out of my way to find one.

Also, depending what you are cooking, lots of people are using carbon steel pans (de Buyer, Paderno, Vollrath) instead of CI. I just got a carbon steel pan for eggs today, but haven't had a chance to use it yet. There are lots of threads on Chowhound on carbon steel.

Pic is of a new Lodge CI skillet after cooking eggs and then cleaning with salt and oiling for storage.

Feb 21, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

The ultimate way to season cast iron, per Cook's Illustrated

For seasoning, I'd stick with the Flaxseed oil. For maintenance (e.g., post cleaning whether w/ salt or water, though I'd stick w/ salt if it's working), I'd recommend a highly saturated fat. Why highly saturated? Those fats tend to have a lower oxidation index, which means that they are much less likely to go rancid. I don't know what the saturated content is of bacon fat, but my guess is that it's pretty darn high! I'm using coconut oil as it has a the highest saturated fat content and the lowest oxidation index value of the most common oils. See this chart:
http://www.clovegarden.com/ingred/oil...

The oil that I'm going to use when frying at high heat is rice bran oil as it is a very balanced oil with one of the highest smoke points (490degrees). I've ordered some, and as long as the taste is agreeable (it is supposed to be mild) I'll use that. It's probably too late to save me from all those free radicals I've ingested over the years from overheating olive oil, but better late than never.

PS..Don't use Flax seed oil to coat your pans after cleaning as Flax seed oil goes rancid very, very quickly. In fact, it's not even supposed to be used for cooking as its oxidation value is so high! Better to use coconut, bacon fat, beef tallow, etc.

Feb 09, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

The ultimate way to season cast iron, per Cook's Illustrated

That's how I made mine, I put the butter and oil in the pan while pre-heating. Yesterday I had lunch at a 'Famous Dave's' BBQ and I thought the cornbread was a little too crumbly (hard to butter) and was lacking the 'corn taste' of what I made.

Yes, there are tons of recipes, but if I go through them all, I'll weight a ton ;)

Feb 09, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

The ultimate way to season cast iron, per Cook's Illustrated

Great, sounds like success. I cooked cornbread last night using a CI recipe (Southern Cornbread for Northeners). The recipe did not say anything about greasing the skillet, so I didn't do that. My understanding is that there is enough oil in the batter so that it is not necessary to oil the pan. Took it out of the oven and it about jumped out of the skillet when I turned it over. I was expecting to have to wrap the bottom of the skillet to loosen it up, but it just fell right out.

FYI, I thought the cornbread could have been a little sweeter. I used Domino 'Brownulated' brown sugar (it's granulated, looks like little balls).

Feb 07, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

The ultimate way to season cast iron, per Cook's Illustrated

Thanks. It doesn't seem too bad right now, but I'll have to see how it holds up. I think everyone agrees that the best thing is to just use them quite often, especially things like bacon, fried chicken, etc. I just am not going to be able to do that, well I could, but I don't want to be eating fried food all the time. Honestly, I don't know how much I'll use it, but I wanted to have a pan ready in case I need it. I'm starting to switch over from my old non-stick cookware, though I recently purchased a Circulon Infinite 6-qt. chef's pan which I use for a low carb/lean meat bean + tomatoes concoction.

Feb 06, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

The ultimate way to season cast iron, per Cook's Illustrated

ChemK,

Thanks for the tip. And I definitely agree that it's how it cooks, not how it looks! (Function over Form)

Feb 06, 2011
sawdin in Cookware

The ultimate way to season cast iron, per Cook's Illustrated

re: Chemicalkinetics and temp. used.

Most people talk about 'polyermizing' the fat. I have read what is really need is to get to the stage where you are 'carbonizing', and this takes higher temperatures. I don't know for sure, but I think the higher temperature help to create a better bond due to the carbonization. I'm not a chemist, so I could be totally wrong, but that's what I've read. Yes, I know, there is a ton of wrong information on the web and just b/c someone posts something does not mean it is correct. I don't have time to look for the source right now, but I believe it was a 'reputable' one (which still doesn't mean it's correct, lol). So, I guess I'd opt for the higher temperature method as this 'supposedly' is the catalyst for carbonization to occur.

Feb 06, 2011
sawdin in Cookware