lwong's Profile
Fairway Censorship on the Queens Boards?
We did not make any statements that indicated Chowhound bowed to overt pressure from any business to delete negative posts, nor do we believe that Chowhound has done that.
Our comment was that we felt Chowhound had unfairly deleted the poster “Janie’s” post.
It is obvious that any well run business that wishes to avoid any controversy will put in place policies to forestall any situation from ever getting to that extreme status, as Chowhound will self censor itself to ensure that as we had stated, Chowhound will provide a “hospitable environment for their advertisers.”
Anyone who has ever read a product review on “Consumer Reports” versus a similar review at a media outlet that survives by taking in ad revenue will notice the difference immediately in the tone and words used in the reviews, and the no nonsense conclusions written by “Consumer Reports.” It is understandable that “Consumer Reports” can do this while other media reviews cannot, since “Consumer Reports” does not have a built-in conflict of interest in having to decide who is more important to them, the advertisers or the consumer/readers in writing their reviews, since “Consumer Reports” does not take advertising and where their revenue streams are only subscriber subscriptions and annual fund raising.
When a number of posters make posts questioning the deletion of a posting by a fellow poster, this should ring some bells with Chowhound that they might have erred in deleting a post. Posters who posted comments about the deletion have no axe to grind, since it was not their post that was deleted.
And it is curious that Chowhound completed sanitized the “Fairway Supermarket” thread, to the extent that even posts that only referred to the deleted posting were deleted, even though none of those posts in any manner could have been construed to have violated Chowhound’s posting guidelines.
We were a reader/poster on Chowhound long before it was bought by commercial interests, and we did not feel that Chowhound deleted posts as readily as Chowhound does now. We felt that there was more give and take between Chowhound and posters.
Contrary to what one responder to our posting who stated that Chowhound “doesn’t owe you nor any other poster anything,” we would hope that Chowhound feels it owes it’s readers to be responsible and have integrity in administering the Chowhound site.
We had no expectations that our post would change Chowhound’s policies, since as a teacher told us cynically once, that the only important things in this world were “money and power,” and taking our teacher’s statement to heart, we had very low expectations of any changes happening, and were not surprised at your fairly generic boilerplate response (“didn't fit within the established guidelines of our site”) that did not provide any further details.
But like Don Quixote, a hopeless romantic, we also enjoy tilting at windmills.
Fairway Censorship on the Queens Boards?
The various posts on censorship by a number of posters were not posted out of the blue on the Outerboros Forum, but instead they were originally posted on the “Fairway Supermarket” thread where the deletions occurred and the deleted posts were just responses by numerous posters who perceived that censorship might have occurred in unfairly deleting numerous posts.
While the responding posts commenting on the deletions might not be technically germane, they were logically germane to the extent that the posts questioning the post deletions were in the proper thread. Usually, when there is a deletion, there is little outcry, but in this instance there were numerous posters who posted responses questioning the deletions.
If you will check the old “Fairway” ( http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/815260 ) thread, the thread has now been completely sanitized, where a new reader would have no idea as to the controversy that had occurred earlier.
We would guess that the “Outerboro” Forum has considerably more readership than the “Site Talk” Forum, which would be a back water compared to the page requests at the many Chowhound food forums, hence fewer readers will have the opportunity to read and debate this very sensitive topic of censorship.
It is interesting that you mention that “A much larger and more pervasive threat than any "censorship," which is the “drift toward all ‘noise’ and no ‘signal’ on the local and topical boards.”
As you must be aware, it is only a very small percentage of the Chowhound readership that posts, and of that percentage that posts, it is an even smaller percentage that posts useful and interesting information. And it is usually from this small percentage of posters who write detailed informative posts that generally run afoul of the Chowhound police in terms of censorship issues.
The posts that were deleted in the “Fairway” thread had a considerably high “signal to noise” ratio, where even if you did not agree with those posters, you nevertheless found them interesting and informative. And it goes without saying that posters who post “noise” do not have to ever worry that their posts will be deleted.
One further point is that the poster “Janie” who had her posts deleted, has made a considerable number of posts with high “signal” content with little “noise” in the past and her deleted posts in the “Fairway Supermarket” thread would not be classified by anyone as “noise.”
While we do not have data to support our thesis, our feeling is that when Chowhound exercises a heavy hand in deleting too many posts, it will also tend to eventually affect in a negative manner the participation of many prolific, interesting, and informative posters who generate much of the “signals” on Chowhound Forums.
Our censorship post is quite germane to your issue of too much “noise” and not enough “signal” on Chowhound.
Fairway Censorship on the Queens Boards?
If you will reread our posting carefully, you will find that we did not make any statements indicating that Chowhound does not have the right to delete any posts it wants. In fact we state that Chowhound has the perfect right to do this. But it appears that you might be confusing the right of Chowhound to delete postings and the action itself of censorship. Just because Chowhound has the right to delete a posting does not mean that they are not performing censorship. Dictatorships and other authoritarian governments have the perfect right (backed up by numerous lethal weapons) to stymie and repress any news that they do not like for whatever reason, but that is still censorship. Which is the crux of our posting and complaint to Chowhound, that the deleted posts of the poster “Janie” were deleted unfairly, since having read those original deleted posts by “Janie,” we felt that they were deleted solely because Chowhound did not want any posts to disturb the “breezy” forums that might be construed as not providing a “hospitable environment for their advertisers.”
From your remarks, especially your statement that Chowhound “doesn't owe you nor any other poster anything,” our interpretation is that you do not feel that companies who deal with the public have any responsibility to be above board and deal honestly with their customers in providing a product or service. In the case of Chowhound, one would think that there is an implicit understanding between Chowhound and the public that Chowhound is responsibly performing the role of the honest intermediary who will publish all postings, positive or negative, that do not violate the Chowhound rules of posting in terms of not being SPAM, uncivilized behavior, and other arcane rules like not mentioning health issues or DOH closings. Wouldn’t you be outraged if it was determined that Chowhound was taking money to delete negative reviews of selected restaurants. Our assumption is that this type of behavior would absolutely not be acceptable to you, yet you post the statement that “It doesn't owe you nor any other poster anything.” Obviously, Chowhound and any other private business dealing with the public do owe customers “something,” as all businesses always have an implicit responsibility to deal honestly and fairly with the public.
The bulk of your posting was the defense of the sanctity of private property, and that Chowhound has the right to do whatever they please. That was not the issue raised in our post.
The primary issue is whether Chowhound unfairly deleted the posts of the poster “Janie.” That is a valid comment and posting to make, unless you feel that readers of Chowhound have no right to make comments about the policies of Chowhound.
Our posting was to appeal to the better instincts and nature of Chowhound management that censorship may not be the best policy for Chowhound versus providing a forum known for honest and fair postings of the food scene.
Your use of the word “graciously,” to describe Chowhound’s behavior in opening ‘to the general public to bring fun and topical discussion of the food scene,” might be a little hyperbole, and not quite on the mark, don’t you think? Chowhound (and by inference Chow.com) wants high numbers of readership and most importantly, informative posts by posters to provide useful content for their readership and thus be able to charge higher rates to their advertisers and make corresponding higher profits. Gracious hosts typically invite their guests and provide them with free refreshments and entertainment without making profits from the endeavor, but Chowhound would hardly qualify as a gracious host. It would be more accurate to describe the relationship between Chowhound and it’s readership as symbiotic rather than Chowhound being gracious and generous. Chowhound needs readers/posters and readers/posters need Chowhound, and as in all symbiotic relationships, there must be a healthy give and take between both parties.
We can just imagine the American automobile makers sitting around the table in the 1980’s spouting the similar lines as in your posting such as, “It doesn’t owe you nor any other poster anything (for the purposes of this example, substitute “customers” for “posters”), and “Feel free to start your own website if you like (substitute “buy another automobile” for “start your own website”). As history shows, the American automobile makers did indeed feel that they did not owe their customers anything (such as a reliable and value oriented car) and customers did indeed heed their advice to buy other automobiles, lots of them, and not American made. Didn’t several of these American automakers just go through a bankruptcy and obtain huge government bailouts? From this and much other evidence, companies who take the attitude, as you would suggest (do not owe the customer anything), do so at their own peril.
No, you are not correct, as our posting was not about food nor the sanctity of private property. It was about the principle of censorship. Censorship is always a serious topic regardless of the venue. And remember that censorship is always done by the strong against the weak.
P.S. For Zenfoodist: “Articulately!” Now that is high praise from an English teacher (our apologies, but we Googled you to confirm our guess that you were indeed an English teacher). It is too bad that you cannot speak favorably to our many English instructors who thought our essays and other writings were incoherent and poorly written and gave us many poor marks as a result. (LOL)
Fairway Censorship on the Queens Boards?
We had posted on the “Fairway” thread and also had our posting deleted.
Our posting was not a review of “Fairway,” but a posting in support of the poster “Janie,” and against censorship. The world as reflected in the unfolding events in the Middle East is rebelling against dictatorships, and it was in this spirit that we posted. Of course, we realize that it is difficult if not impossible to challenge corporate interests (meaning loss of money and power), but if one wants to effect change, than like the popular quote from the Chinese philosopher Laozi, “a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.”
In reading Chowhound’s responses, we have not changed our views toward our perception of Chowhound’s policy to “provide a more hospitable environment for their advertisers,” as expressed in their response that Chowhound as a “breezy forum is not an appropriate venue for handling such urgent and serious issues.”
An E-mail was not forwarded to us regarding the deletion of our posting, hence it is not clear if our original posting was welcomed or will be deleted again, but we have nevertheless posted it again below:
We would like to chime in here in support of the poster “Janie” also.
As the poster Zenfoodist has stated above, we also “welcome and support her right to” post negative reviews about the “Fairway Supermarket.”
Chowhound has the right to moderate this forum for non-germane food postings or other postings of an undesirable nature, but having read the original posts by the poster “Janie,” we do not think that her deleted posts were of an undesirable or non-germane nature, but were her opinions, albeit negative, of the quality of the food and general conditions at the “Fairway Supermarket.”
While we are not naïve to think that Chowhound has an absolute “Firewall” between the editorial and business side of Chowhound, as we understand that the primary purpose of a business is to make money, however, we would also like to think that Chowhound has some sense of integrity in allowing all honest views to be published. Otherwise if Chowhound’s present and future policy is to censor all negative views in order to provide a more hospitable environment for their advertisers, than readers of Chowhound cannot have proper and fair viewpoints of the food scene.
Since the Chowhound forums are unique in that the material provided to readers is not paid for by Chowhound, but provided by the readers themselves gratis, we would think that Chowhound would exercise a light hand in moderating their posters. We would also like to point out that the regular posters who provide most of the detailed posts with invaluable information on the food scene are only a very small percentage of the total Chowhound readership.
Chowhound must think about what they want to become. For the sake of maximizing their profits, do they want to follow in the footsteps of the old “Pravda, “Ivestia,” and People’s Daily, which mostly reflect the “Party line” and were poorly respected newspapers in Russia and China. Or does Chowhound want to publish a forum known for posts with honest reviews of the food scene, and also respect their regular posters.
No one wants to be unnecessarily censored or submit postings to a forum that censors, and as a result, there may be a slow degradation of quality as the regular posters make less postings. It may take years, but sooner or later, Chowhound will decline in the quality of the posts on the Forums, if Chowhound continues with this more active censorship of the forums.
New Restaurant on Northern Blvd: Daheen Wong Mandoo Lines Out the Door!
Well, we can see that the Year of the Rabbit has been exceedingly good to the Zenfoodist family, if you are now sporting “macaron sized pear stud” diamond earrings!
And yes, the Zenfoodist family is definitely generous parents in giving your Chowpup 40% of the “Mandoo’s” and sacrificing their proper share of the hard gotten “Mandoo’s.”
Although after confessing about your “chubbier” physicality, you may want to forswear eating any more “Mandoo’s” and “Red Bean Buns” for the interim until a proper slimmer silhouette is achieved again. And this will leave more “Mandoos” and “Red Bean Buns” for other customers!
Mmmm, from your “Soup Nazi” description about “Daheen,” it appears that we will have to be on our best behavior when we line up at “Daheen” in the future.
Best Wishes to the Zenfoodist family for the many upcoming holidays and the Chowpup’s 8th birthday party celebration.
New Restaurant on Northern Blvd: Daheen Wong Mandoo Lines Out the Door!
Or we may have serenely passed each other in front of “Daheen Wong Mandoo,” since neither of us wears Chowhound nametags with our handles “Lwong” and “Zenfoodist.” And remember our New Yorker cartoon where one can be anyone they want to be on the Internet.
But the next time we are in front of “Daheen Wong Mandoo,” we will be especially be on the lookout for a woman with small “mofungo-sized” diamond earrings, although if you had “knuckle sized diamond earrings” we would be able to identify you immediately. (LOL)
Thanks for the information about the two Korean restaurants. We will have to try them.
P.S. For Erica: According to Yelp ( http://www.yelp.com/biz/book-chang-dong-soon-tofu-flushing ) the restaurant “Book Chang Dong” is at 152-22 Northern Blvd, hence our guess is that Zenfoodist did indeed mean “Book Chang Dong,” and “BonJuk” is immediately to the left of “Book Chang Dong,” as a Google/Bing search did not bring up any information about a restaurant named “Book Chang Dol.”
New Restaurant on Northern Blvd: Daheen Wong Mandoo Lines Out the Door!
We happened to be shopping at the Korean supermarket a block from the “Daheen Wong Mandoo” store this evening and thought we would check out the “Daheen” store that had numerous people milling around outside the store.
This was at 5:30 PM and when we went inside the store, we were told that all of the “Mandoo” and “Red Bean Buns” were sold out already to the waiting people milling inside the store.
From the phenomenon of the store selling out by 5:30 PM, the assumption is that the “Mandoo” and “Red Bean buns” must either taste very good or the owners had grossly underestimated the customer demand.
The store was still steaming the “Red Bean Buns” at the steamer stations in the front of the store and the buns appeared to be quite thin skinned and full of red bean. One customer told us that the “Red Bean Buns” were just a little sweet and quite good tasting.
We overheard an Indian customer state how disappointed he was that everything was sold out as he had driven in from Long Island to try the “Mandoo” and “Red Bean Buns.”
Imagine that, a Korean “Mom and Pop” store selling just two items has spread it’s reputation all the way out onto Long Island already in just one week!
Must remember to come around on another day to try the “Mandoo” and “Red Bean Buns.”
Lechon/Lechona/Pernil, Caja Chinas and Using a Panederia's Oven to Roast One's Pig....
Sorry to hear that your party was spoiled by Hurricane Irene, but that was probably better than being advised that Hurricane Irene had caused your roof to be blown off or a tree to fall on your house. That was our worse fear, which did not lead to much sleep during the night of Hurricane Irene, but fortunately our family escaped unscathed, unlike many unlucky families in the path of the hurricane.
Sounds like “Corner 28” might be opening an annex soon in your neck of the woods.
We had ordered a mere 24 Macarons from the Cannelle Bakery earlier this year, which we thought was quite costly for such a small package of pastries, but while ordering our Macarons, we were told by one of the employees that someone had ordered a considerably larger order of Macarons than ours. When we were told how large the order was, we thought that was one “well heeled” customer. (LOL)
From your tidbit about ordering Macarons from Cannelle, that customer must have been the Zenfoodist family.
Did you know that ordering the Macarons without the fancy box from Cannelle will save money as Cannelle charges $1 for the fancy box with the ribbon? But we do have to say that it is much nicer from a presentation perspective with the box and ribbon. But you have heard the adage, “In for a penny, in for a pound.”
Have you heard about the recent opening on the upper eastside of Manhattan of a branch of the famous Maison Laduree Bakery, which invented Macarons over a hundred years ago. Laduree is selling their Macarons for the eye-popping price of $2.70 each. And at the opening of Laduree, there were lines of an hour plus of people waiting to hand over tons of money to the Laduree Bakery for Macarons baked in Paris and shipped over to NYC. According to the “Eater” website, many of the customers “were Laduree pros, knowing exactly what quantities and varieties of flavors they wanted,” and “One woman with knuckle-sized diamond earrings bought five $55 boxes.” And we would have to assume that Laduree charges considerably more than $1 for their fancy boxes.
We wish that we had wealthy relatives/friends who would invite us to a party and give out ribbon wrapped Macarons as party favors.
Now is there any possibility that the woman with the “knuckle sized diamond earrings” mentioned by the “Eater” website was a member of the Zenfoodist family? (LOL)
-----
Cannelle Patisserie
75-59 31st Ave, Queens, NY 11370
Lechon/Lechona/Pernil, Caja Chinas and Using a Panederia's Oven to Roast One's Pig....
Although this post is probably too late for your pig centered party, our response is basically an addendum to “FattyDumplin’s” reply about Flushing roast pigs costing “around $200,” and a “plan Z” for alternative roast pigs for future reference, as the Chinese roast pigs (generic non-heritage pigs) have a different taste than the “Heritage hog” BBQ pigs mentioned in your original post.
We have not been in the Flushing Chinatown for a number of weeks, but finally made a trip to the Flushing Chinatown this past weekend and we checked the prices for whole roast pigs at the “Pho Hoang” Vietnamese Restaurant (the one with hanging ducks and roast pig in the window) on Kissena Blvd across the street from the Flushing Library and at the “Corner 28” restaurant.
The whole roast pig prices are:
a. Pho Hoang: $7.50/lb for 25 to 30 lb pigs; $6.50/lb for 35 lb and up pigs (all weights after cooking). Require three days notice and deposit.
b. Corner 28: $8.00/lb for 21 to 30 lb pigs; $6.00/lb for 31 to 40 lb pigs; lower cost/lb for pigs larger than 40 lbs; will deliver with no extra charge except for tip to driver. Forgot to ask when they weight the pig, but would assume that it would be after cooking. Requires one week’s notice and deposit.
And there are a number of other BBQ places in Flushing, but these are among the better ones. Another good Flushing BBQ place is at the “East Buffet” restaurant on Main Street on the first floor Street level.
Now we did not ask the Chinatown BBQ places if they will roast a pig that you bring to them, but they might do this also. One can only ask and be told no, but then they could also say yes.
A Chinese roast pig would not set back the Zenfoodist family anywhere near $1K, however the pig would be a generic non-heritage pig and would be Chinese BBQ flavored.
P.S. For someone planning possibly to hand out Macarons just for the party favors at one party you had posted about previously, we would think that $1K for the main entrée attraction at another soiree would hardly cause a ripple in the Zenfoodist’s budget. (LOL)
P.P.S. We will have to remember to try the cream puffs at the Red Lotus Bakery if we are in the Little Neck area. Your Chowhound posting on the Red Lotus Bakery cream puffs sounds very inviting.
-----
Corner 28
40-28 Main St, Queens, NY 11354
Pho Hoang
41-01 Kissena Blvd, Queens, NY 11355
East Buffet & Restaurant
42-07 Main St, Queens, NY 11355
Red Lotus Bakery
255-07 Northern Blvd, Queens, NY 11362
Where can I buy DRY chow fun noodles?
You can buy dry noodles of all kinds, including the dried version of Ho Fun used in Chow Fun dishes (fresh Ho Fun noodles are typically used for the Chow Fun dishes), at a large Chinese supermarket in any of the major Chinatowns in NYC.
You need not go into Manhattan’s Chinatown where parking is a major hassle to find your dry noodles, as there is a nearby large Chinatown within several miles of Ditmas Park in the Sunset Chinatown where there are chock full of Chinese stores on 8th Avenue between 50th Street and all the way down to around 65th Street, and including many of the side streets along 8th Avenue. Although we have to mention that the Sunset Chinatown is becoming increasingly difficult to find parking also.
Probably the best bet is to find one of the large Chinese Supermarkets at the southern end of the Sunset Chinatown that should carry a large variety of dry Chinese noodles to choose from. Several of the large Chinese supermarkets in the Sunset Chinatown even have available parking.
Here is an old June 2010 Chowhound posting discussing Chinese Supermarkets in the Sunset Chinatown: ( http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/713313 )
And at the Yelp site they list a number of Chinese supermarkets in the Brooklyn area: ( http://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=chinese+supermarket+brooklyn&find_loc=New+York%2C+NY )
Or you can just drive slowly along 8th Avenue at the southern end of the Sunset Chinatown and you will eventually find one of those large Chinese supermarkets.
Good luck.
New Fish Market In Whitestone Keyfood Supermarket
Probably “out of our mind,” as even we would have to admit that this posting is much longer than our usual typical very verbose posting. But the words kept coming and we couldn’t stop until we thought we had covered most of the topics. (LOL)
In a recent NYT’s article ( http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/19/science/19longevity.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=longevity&st=cse ) about the characteristics of people who have the longest longevity, the primary characteristic was “conscientiousness.” A quote from the NYT’s article is below:
"The key traits are prudence and persistence. 'The findings clearly revealed that the best childhood personality predictor of longevity was conscientiousness,' they write, 'the qualities of a prudent, persistent, well-organized person, like a scientist-professor somewhat obsessive and not at all carefree.'”
We are hoping that we are one of those people considered being “conscientiousness” as shown by this “out of our mind” very lengthy posting and enhance the probability of our living a long long life. (LOL)
New Fish Market In Whitestone Keyfood Supermarket
As you are aware, the frugal Chinese never like to “pay the price,” hence we usually do not shop at the higher price fish markets. (LOL)
We shop at most of the large Asian grocery stores in eastern Queens and in Flushing Chinatown, but we usually do not buy from the H-Mart fish market on Northern Blvd, as we feel the prices are too high for the freshness that they offer.
Well, not sure that we have any special tips for shopping at the Chinese fish markets, but basically it is following your common sense and utilizing the same rules for buying most things in life, but here are some of our laymen’s checklist rules for buying fish in the Chinatowns:
a. Caveat Emptor: This cannot be over emphasized as the Chinese fish markets similar to the Chinese BBQ stores do not want to lose money by throwing away old fish or BBQ, hence they have the many standard methods to disguise less than fresh fish to sell to unsuspecting customers who are not aware of how to determine if the fish and seafood are fresh. This is understandable as the fish markets operate on very thin profit margins. We have seen the fish markets cutting a live Carp and letting the blood drip onto earlier cut in half Carp sections to fool customers into thinking that the Carp have just been killed. For this reason, we will look for a beating Carp heart (the Chinese fish stores have not figured out how to simulate a beating Carp heart yet) to indicate that the fish has just been freshly killed. The price is lower for dead Carp than the swimming Carp. This information is not of much use to non-Asians, as there are just too many bones in Carp for most non-Asians, but the meat is quite sweet and tender, and cheap too, but one must of course be very careful in eating the Carp. Asians from much practice naturally are experts in avoiding the many slivers of bones in Carp.
b. No Fish Agenda: Similar to going to the local library for free movie DVD’s, one must not have any particular fish in mind to buy, as one must have a “Pot Luck” attitude to buy only those available seafood that are the freshest and at a reasonable price.
c. No Loss Leaders: When it comes to pricing, the Chinese fish markets are very straightforward capitalists, although we are beginning to see “loss leaders” for the dry goods and vegetables at the larger Chinese supermarkets. But this practice has not yet migrated down to the Chinese fish markets. The Chinese fish markets are like “Filene’s Basement” where “Filenes” will mark down items week by week if they do not sell. In the same manner, the Chinese fish markets will mark down seafood eventually when the seafood does not sell. This means that when one sees a fish item that is cheaper than the normal market price at other fish markets, invariably this usually means the seafood item is past it’ prime. There is definitely no free lunch at the Chinatown fish markets. This advice goes for the fresh fruit also. Every time we have bought very low price fruit compared to the pricing of the same fruit at other fruit stores, we have found after coming home and eating the sale priced fruit that they are either dark colored on the inside from having been frozen, or the fruit is not sweet, no taste, no texture, or some other deficiency. We no longer buy any fruit that is especially lower priced compared to the other fruit stores. Upon reflection, one can only blame ourselves, since if you were to complain to the store, our guess is that they would state, “What did you expect for such a low price?” It would be hard to argue with that logic. (LOL)
However, depending upon one’s pocketbook and one’s need for having the freshest fish, one can sometimes get good value by buying fish that have been marked down to lower than market price at the Chinese fish markets. Each person will have to use their own discretion as to what is the acceptable value threshold in terms of the trade-off for price and freshness. For the freshest quality at the Chinese fish markets, this would be when the price is the highest for the item in question. One must of course shop often enough at the Chinese fish markets to get a feel of the Chinatown fair market prices. It should be noted that the Chinese fish markets do not have the absolute freshest fish available (this is for the already dead fish), as in order to keep their prices low, they do not get the “A” quality fish, but the “B” quality. It would be quite rare to see Seabass as fresh as the one we bought at the Keyfood fish market the other week. Hence typically, the best fish and seafood one can get at the Flushing fish markets is the top of the “B” range quality seafood, although every once in a while, we will see some very fresh fish at the Chinatown fish markets, where we assume that the Flushing fish markets have been able to cut good wholesale deals at the Fulton fish market or through private fisherman. Where the Chinatown fish markets excel are in the large variety of live swimming fish and other live seafood available at reasonable prices. During certain times, one can obtain live shrimp at the Flushing fish markets. But while the various live fish are good, they of course will not be as good as their wild live equivalents.
The Hong Kong fish market on Main Street will sometimes have live Seabass in the tanks, but they would not be as tasty as a wild live Seabass. On a business trip to Newport, RI, a number of years ago, our hotel was right next door to a wholesale lobster company, and a by product of their lobster catch are Seabass that have been caught in the lobster traps. The lobster wholesaler had a very brisk business selling the live Seabass to local restaurants. We of course being a lover of Seabass, bought one large Seabass from the lobster company and flew home with it to NYC scaring everyone on the commuter aircraft as the Seabass would periodically have a death throe and thrash around in the bag causing everyone on the plane to wonder what we had in the bag. We immediately steamed the Seabass that night (less than 8 hours out of the water when we steamed the Seabass) and the flesh was much more firmer and with better taste than the live Seabass from Chinatown.
d. Seldom Buy Fillets: Chinese typically do not buy fillets, hence unless one knows for sure that the Chinese fish markets buys their fillets wholesale themselves, one should not buy any fillets. The exceptions to this rule that we are aware are the salmon steaks/fillets and Codfish fillets, as salmon is usually cut up from whole salmon by the fish markets and we have seen them take out the Codfish fillets from wholesale round containers. Most of the other few fillets on display are usually ones from whole fish that they have been unable to sell that they have filleted. It is much harder to tell whether a fillet is fresh than a whole fish, where one can easily tell the freshness of a whole fish by looking at the eyes, the skin, and the gills of the fish, but the best way to find out if a fish is fresh is to smell the fish or fillet, where at Chinese fish markets this can be easily done, as the fish are displayed on open ice beds with no glass barriers shielding the fish and there are no issues for customers to select their own fish. In fact the Flushing fish markets expect that their customers will want to select their own fish. One can put their hands in a plastic bag to handle the seafood to keep your hands clean and also not contaminate the seafood. The only exception are the shellfish selections and the live swimming fish, where the fish markets will have an employee handle the shellfish and live fish for the customers, since the fish market does not want the customers to kill their shellfish and live fish with too much handling.
e. Choosing the Fish and Seafood:
No doubt you are aware of how to tell if fish and seafood is fresh, hence the links below are for any wayward readers who have accidentally stumbled upon this post, and who might not know how to determine if fish is fresh:
These sites have general methods and hints for assessing the freshness of fish:
a. http://www.thekitchn.com/thekitchn/ingredients-seafood/good-fish-bad-fish-how-to-inspect-fish-for-freshness-065031
b. http://www.divinecaroline.com/33710/45916-check-fish-freshness
c. http://hubpages.com/hub/How-to-Buy-Fresh-Fish-Signs-of-Freshness
d. http://www.jamieoliver.com/news/how-to-tell-if-fish-is-fresh
e. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBZ6C9tmg4M
For the technically inclined, here are several sites discussing new technology for measuring how fresh a fish is, but it is not clear when an instrument would be cheap enough, if ever, for retail customers to use to test the freshness of fish. It uses spectroscopy to determine freshness of the fish:
a. http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/318/is-the-fish-fresh
b. http://www.seafish.org/media/Publications/FS30_05_09_innovative_sensors_fish_freshness.pdf
In buying live shellfish, there are some problematic issues if they are all in a crowded tank, as it is very difficult to make your own selection of the best and most lively Vancouver crabs and lobsters. If possible we will look for the liveliest crabs and lobsters moving around in the tank and ask the fish market to get the particular crab or lobster that we want, but this is not always possible and one will have to accept the selection of the fish market if their prices are very good. One issue in buying them from the crowded tank is that the employee will hold up the shellfish for a second or two for your concurrence to the purchase and then immediately put the crabs or lobsters in a bag for weighing while there is still much water in the crab or lobster. Paying for water is not a good idea.
But in some Chinatown fish markets, they will put out a small number of the Vancouver crabs and lobsters in either water or on ice where one can judge if the lobsters and crabs are sufficiently lively by actually handling them. We would want to pick up the lobsters to see how lively they are. Ideally, the claws should rise up quickly in the air like a victorious sports player and the tail should arch back under your hand. The lobster should feel strong and have the weight for their particular size. If it looks like a 1.5 lb lobster, it should also weigh the same. If they are limp, weak, and light, this is not a good sign, as it means that they probably have been in the tank for too many days. Remember the shellfish are not being fed while waiting in the tanks, hence they are getting weaker day by day as they wait for their death sentence to be carried out for our eating pleasure.
For the Vancouver crabs, again we will try to see if they are lively when we pick them up and also if they feel heavy for their size. If they have been in water, we try to hold them and let the water drain out if this is the crab we want to buy.
For the live fish, like the shellfish, we will look for liveliness and without any open sores on the fish and select a fish on this basis, but again like the shellfish, in very crowded tanks, this may not be possible for you to select your particular fish and one must take the selection of the fish market. One only has a few seconds after the fish market nets the live fish to determine if the fish is sufficiently lively and without sores. One tries to see how much the fish struggles after being taken out of the water. It is more of an art form now, since you are unable to handle the fish, but can only make a decision whether to purchase the fish based upon seeing it for a few seconds. In most cases, however, the fish are usually fairly lively.
e. Shop Around: When in Flushing Chinatown, we will usually walk around to quite a few of the fish markets to check out what is available, the prices, and the freshness of the seafood, and then decide whether to buy or not and which store to buy from. Obviously, this entails a tradeoff between money and time, as in order to get the best price and the freshest seafood, one must expend precious time walking around to all the various fish markets. This is why it is better to be a huge Mega Lottery winner as one can just go to established stores with known reputations for providing top quality products and services at premium prices of course, but as a large Lottery winner, money is no object now, but time becomes paramount. Unfortunately, none of our lottery tickets have won yet.
f. Be Selective: After shopping at the Chinatown fish markets sufficient times to know which seafood you enjoy eating and which also meet your threshold for acceptable freshness and price at the various Chinatown fish markets, stick with these tried and true seafood items in the future. For our family, we like Wan Yu Carp (dead or alive although the recently dead ones are cheaper), Seabass (mostly dead ones, but sometimes live), Codfish fillets, salmon steaks, swimming Tilapia, swimming Striped Bass, shellfish (lobsters, crabs, conch, shrimp, and various clams), live frogs, whiting, Belt fish, fluke, flounder, and Skate fish.
g. Particular Fish Markets: We buy mostly on the freshness of the seafood item we are interested in, as like the Chinatown restaurants, the fish markets are also highly inconsistent in the quality of their fish and seafood. We have not noticed any particular fish market in Flushing Chinatown consistently having good quality fresh seafood across the board available all the time at good prices and what differences there are between the various fish markets are not sufficient enough to make any particular fish market stand out from the crowd. Since none of the Chinatown fish markets are prepared to pay top wholesale prices for their fish and seafood to get “A” quality seafood, the quality of their fish products will be much more variable. This is why it is important to shop around at all of the Flushing fish markets in order to see what each fish market is selling. One must wear out a lot of shoe leather and/or gasoline to get the best and freshest available fish and seafood. But typically, we are always shopping at several grocery stores for the vegetables, fruits, seafood, and dry goods that our family needs, hence this is not major issue to check several fish markets for the freshest seafood. There will be days that one fish market will have one type of fish that is quite fresh, but for whatever reason, none of the other fish markets will have them or they are not as fresh at the other fish markets, or there are price differences. And there are sometimes price differences of 50 cents to a dollar per lb for the equivalent freshness. Sometimes we wonder if it is worth all this effort to save several dollars for each seafood item, but since it is ingrained in most Asian shopper’s DNA to be frugal, we have no choice except to follow our destiny. But it certainly keeps the Chinese fish markets on their toes when a large majority of the Asian shoppers are constantly comparison-shopping for the best prices and in a sense performing our required role and responsibility in a free market to be knowledgeable customers in order to create an efficient fair market price.
h. Avoid Hidden Fish Cleaning Stations: Although most Chinatown fish markets clean the fish at open cleaning stations now, there was a time when several Chinatown fish markets would have hidden fish cleaning stations. We like to see what the fish market is doing with our fish while it is being cleaned, hence we would not shop at fish markets that had hidden cleaning stations in the past. Although the following story is unrelated to fish markets, it does indicate the extent of unsavory practices at the Chinese grocery stores, where one of our friends whenever he buys a roast duck from the BBQ places, will always take the duck whole and chop it themselves when they get home rather than have the store chop it for free, since he feels that sometimes he is missing portions of the duck when the store chops the duck. This does not happen all the time, but enough times that our friend would want to take the trouble to chop the Duck themselves on principle. Our family has decided to take the duck and other BBQ losses and try to be as vigilant as we can in watching the BBQ places chop our BBQ items, but quite a few of the BBQ places have half hidden or fully hidden chopping stations and many of the BBQ employees have hands as fast as magicians, hence one must accept that one will take losses when one allows the BBQ places to chop your BBQ items, as it is too much trouble to chop the BBQ items ourselves as the duck juices and sometimes pieces of duck fly all over the place. As mentioned in previous postings over the years about Chinese BBQ, one has to accept that the Chinese BBQ places will sometimes give you less than fresh BBQ, sometimes add extra undesirable pieces of BBQ to your order, sometimes divert away pieces of your order, and other unsavory practices, as all the Chinatown BBQ’s will do this. Basically, with all the BBQ shenanigans, the effective BBQ prices are higher, and in some ways it might be preferable for the BBQ places to charge the higher real prices in the first place and throw away the less than fresh BBQ items and the undesirable BBQ items, but with the cut throat competition in the Chinatowns, we can understand why the BBQ stores would want to set lower prices for their items and then surreptitiously recoup their money back. It is a very difficult and competitive business world for the Chinese grocery stores and they will behave less than ethically in order to survive.
Any checklist rules, tips, and secrets that we have missed that you use in your shopping at the Flushing fish markets.
P.S. We were at the Keyfood fish market on Thursday, 21 April 2011, and were able buy two very fresh Seabass again, one at 3 lbs and the second one for a friend at 2.76 lbs. And we were very surprised to see a complete whole 160 lb swordfish (with the sword) displayed in the window case. We also picked up a dozen small eastern oysters that we were advised had been harvested that morning from the north shore of Long Island at Mt. Sinai harbor. We shucked them immediately after coming home and with a little fresh lime juice, slurped them all down within 10 minutes. We had planned to shuck them all first and put them on a plate to be eaten in a civilized manner at the table, but after trying one after shucking it, our family ate them as fast as we shucked them one by one at the kitchen counter. They were quite good, with a clean and briny flavor. We should have bought two dozen.
New Fish Market In Whitestone Keyfood Supermarket
We have not shopped at Park’s fish market, as we pretty much shop at the Flushing Chinatown’s fish markets, since the prices there are quite low, hence we are unable to give a comparison between the Park’s and the new Keyfood fish markets in terms of price, freshness, and value.
But there have been days, usually on Thursdays or Fridays (our guess as to when most of the fish are delivered) that the fish at the Keyfood fish market are quite fresh, with most of the fish fillets glistening and surprisingly with many whole fish for sale.
We also noticed from the sales circular that the Keyfood fish market has live Prince Edward Island mussels for sale at just $1.99 per lb, which is quite a good price. Live lobsters (we assume that they are soft shell lobsters or shedders) are for sale at $4.99 per lb.
The Keyfood fish market also meets the higher standards of non-Asians in the overall cleanliness of the fish market.
As mentioned in the prior posting, the prices are quite good for the time being. The price we paid for the salmon steaks last week was cheaper than at the Flushing Chinatown fish markets. Hence the question is whether these low prices are just for a short duration to gain customer word of mouth and the plan is to raise the prices in the future. It is not easy to beat the Flushing Chinatown fish markets, especially when Keyfood is offering fresher fish than the Chinatown fish markets. If the Keyfood fish market intends to keep these low prices, than they would have to make up for the lower prices with higher volume sales. Operating a fish market business where your product is highly perishable and trying to make a profit in this intense competitive market is not an easy task.
Like the movie “Field of Dreams” starring Kevin Costner, Keyfood has built a fish market section, now they are anxiously waiting for the crowds to come.
Time will tell if the Keyfood management has made a correct marketing decision in opening a fresh fish market in the Beechhurst section of Whitestone.
Nan Xiang Xiao Long Bao – There is More Than The Xiao Long Bao (Soup Dumplings)
Oh, in our many verbose Chowhound postings, did we neglect to mention that the Nan Xiang restaurant favors out of town customers, and that in order to let the Nan Xiang workers know this, one only has to display the secret Shanghai hand signals when one gets the waiting number from the waitress, and you will automatically jump your XLB order to the front of the queue.
New Fish Market In Whitestone Keyfood Supermarket
For those who live in northern Queens and are looking for a Fish market, a seafood market has opened now for several weeks in of all places, a Keyfood Supermarket in Whitestone, Queens. This is the Keyfood Supermarket in the Beechhurst section of Whitestone in the Cross Island Shopping Center at 153-55 Cross Island Parkway, NY 11357-2648, (718) 767-9317.
Most of the fish are quite fresh and surprisingly the prices are very reasonable for the time being.
The fish are displayed on ice in an open display case with a front glass barrier. Yesterday, there were several whole 8 lb Red Snappers on display, including a whole 8 lb grouper. This is not the typical thing one sees displayed at Queens fish markets that are in a supermarket environment, especially a Keyfood.
We bought salmon steaks for $5.99 (not wild at these prices) yesterday, and for Asian readers on this Forum who love Seabass, several weeks ago we bought a 3.5 lb Seabass for $5.99 per lb (a special sale for that day only; regular price is $6.99 per lb). The Seabass looked like it had just come out of the water. The eyes were crystal clear, the skin was shiny and glistening, there was still a greenish tint on the hump, and the gills were shiny red without any hint of a slimy residue. And the final test was the smell test, where all one could smell was a hint of seawater. But the large Seabass are not always available.
There is a broad variety of fresh fish available. There were tuna and swordfish steaks at $7.99 per lb. While the prices are higher than at the Flushing Chinatown fish markets, the fish tend to be fresher here.
Of course, in making purchases at any fresh fish market, the operative mode is “caveat emptor” as one must inspect the fish very carefully. But the store personnel at this new fish market are very cooperative, as when we asked to smell the salmon steaks we had selected, they immediately handed the salmon steaks in the brown wrapping paper to us to smell.
We asked the store personnel when their store gets their seafood deliveries, but they wouldn’t tell us, but only said that fish comes in every single day.
There have been days that we have been at the fish market that some of the fish did not look as fresh, hence one must be on their toes in making purchases.
For those interested, here is the link to the present Keyfood Supermarket sales circular that is working today, where the seafood sales for this week are on page 4: ( http://keyfood.mywebgrocer.com/CircularMain.aspx?st=A7231045&cc=1&s=140041515&g=a1fb62cd-3956-4736-a577-4b8496b102ee&uc=581EF7 )
If the link above does not work, here is the link to the Keyfood Beechhurst location: (http://www.keyfood.com/locationResults.aspx?zip=11357 ), where one can click on the “circular” icon for the Beechhurst Keyfood store.
-----
Key Food
153-55 Cross Island Pkwy, Queens, NY 11354
LITTLE PEPPER College Point is OPEN!!
Eating a Pidan egg is definitely an acquired taste.
First there is the texture, with the gooey and creamy soft yolk center and the gelatin outer layer, then there is the slight smell of sulfur and ammonia, and finally the taste has a slight bitter alkali flavor, but with the total combination of the smell, texture, and taste, the Pidan egg is not an easy food for most non-Asians to eat.
Among our non-Asian friends who can eat most Chinese foods, most cannot stomach Pidan. One friend said he wanted to throw up after eating a piece of Pidan. Unless you grew up as a child eating Pidan eggs like most Chinese, most likely you will not like them.
We grew up eating Pidan eggs with pickled scallions.
If you ever happen to be in Hong Kong and go to the Yung Kee restaurant as mentioned by “Lau,” you will get the opportunity to try Pidan, as every table is automatically given a small dish of Pidan, which BTW is not free, but is charged to your table.
If there is further interest in learning about Pidan eggs, here is a Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_egg) with more information.
The ScoopG pictures of the Pidan eggs at Picasaweb, does not quite do proper justice to the glory of the Pidan eggs. The best way to eat Pidan eggs is to knock them down straight accompanied with pickled scallions or pickled ginger, rather than cooked, as one loses some of the unique flavor of the Pidan eggs during the cooking process.
Below is a picture of the Pidan in all its glory with the green runny yolk and the black-amber colored gelatin egg white. Do you find the picture of the Pidan appropriately appetizing that you would want to immediately wolf one down? (LOL)
Nan Xiang Xiao Long Bao – There is More Than The Xiao Long Bao (Soup Dumplings)
Luckily for us the 8th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution prohibits “cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.”
We need to have a long talk with the person who said women are the gentler sex.
And we would like to direct Rhett Butler’s statement to Scarlett O’Hara, in the movie “Gone With the Wind,” to both Ms. C. Oliver and Ms. Kathryn:
“And you, Miss, are no lady.”
P.S. And the phrase “It’s Chinatown” was such a good line. We really hate to let go of it, but no one ever remembers who won the silver medal. It is really hard to be original, as someone has usually been there first a head of you already. Drats!
Nan Xiang Xiao Long Bao – There is More Than The Xiao Long Bao (Soup Dumplings)
Agreed that there are no doubt many Chinese MBA’s in Flushing, but they are not working behind the counters in the low paying service positions in Flushing. Despite Flushing Chinatown’s wealth, a very large percentage of the jobs in the Flushing Chinatown are still of low paying service positions.
The Chinese as a class have done well, but there is still a significant percentage of first generation immigrant Chinese who have not achieved the American Dream and toil at very low wages with few benefits in the many Chinatowns in NYC. How else could the prices at the restaurants, grocery stores, and other services in the Chinatowns be so low? And this would be applicable for Flushing Chinatown also.
The story of Chinese-Americans in America is a bifurcated one, where the first generation immigrants are struggling economically, while the later generations who took advantage of America’s free education system and were lucky enough to attend college now lead comfortable middle and upper middle class lives.
Queens has traditionally been the next step up the economic ladder for Chinese immigrants to buy a home as they climb the economic ladder, which is not surprising that the Flushing Chinatown is the wealthiest of the many Chinatowns in NYC. And the Taiwanese, generally more highly educated than the typical Chinese immigrant settled in Queens as their first step up the economic ladder also.
We have not read Prof. Kwong’s book you referenced, but are you stating that Prof. Kwong indicated that 38% of the Chinese working in Flushing Chinatown have college degrees? That would be a surprising large percentage of white-collar professional positions in the Flushing Chinatown, as we would not think that there are sufficient professional businesses in Flushing Chinatown to support that many positions requiring a college degree.
We will have to read Prof. Kwong’s book.
Nan Xiang Xiao Long Bao – There is More Than The Xiao Long Bao (Soup Dumplings)
Here we thought that we had only stolen the idea from the movie “Blood Diamonds,” but instead we also inadvertently plagiarized the last line from the movie “Chinatown,” starring Jack Nicolson.
This shows the perils of having the hubris to rashly announce one’s originality on a public forum on the Internet and our luck in not having seen the movie.
What shall our punishment be, one or two months abstaining from eating XLB’s at the Nan Xiang restaurant? (LOL)
Nan Xiang Xiao Long Bao – There is More Than The Xiao Long Bao (Soup Dumplings)
Agreed!
We forgot about that minor little point.
But you are enjoying the good food without the attendant pain in going to Nan Xiang during the madhouse weekends! (LOL)
Nan Xiang Xiao Long Bao – There is More Than The Xiao Long Bao (Soup Dumplings)
Yes, scarcity does not always bring out the best in humans, and you are very correct that there is definitely a missing step between (d) and (e), where one will become “irrationally angry and jealous.”
Since you have confessed your foibles, we can add our confessional similar to your story about becoming irrationally angry at one diner who had ordered too many orders of XLB’s. We will become irrationally angry if a table is eating too slow or they are having too good of a time, especially if they are having a laughing good time at Nan Xiang, while we have to anxiously wait endlessly on line for a table.
We should have worked on this little Nan Xiang “Riff” together, as it would have turned out even better. (LOL)
Nan Xiang Xiao Long Bao – There is More Than The Xiao Long Bao (Soup Dumplings)
Thanks for the information on the XLB’s.
The interesting thing is that when we tried the Nan Xiang restaurant in Shanghai in 2006, the XLBs were still pretty good, but somehow in the intervening 4 plus years, their XLBs went to hell.
The update about the Shanghai Nan Xiang restaurant to Erica was an “inside” discussion regarding a Chowhound posting several years ago when we had an enjoyable repartee with Erica on XLB’s in Shanghai and Flushing.
Nan Xiang Xiao Long Bao – There is More Than The Xiao Long Bao (Soup Dumplings)
You don’t know what you are missing going early on a weekday to escape the masses on the weekends at Nan Xiang. It is like going to a combination “Live Art Performance” and the “Opera” to experience emotions, except that you are the live performer who is experiencing these emotions in real-time of anxiety, impatience, “irrationally angry and jealous” (props to poster “Kathryn” for this phrase in a posting in this thread), delusion, forgiveness, and nirvana.
Not bad to experience this gamut of emotions at the low low price of $15 per person compared to prices for “Live Art Performances” and the Metropolitan Opera, plus one gets a meal out of this too. (LOL)
And that is really getting up early to eat Dim Sum before 8:00 AM. But for sure you beat all the crowds and avoid an hour wait or more at the more popular Dim Sum restaurants. We don’t recall our family ever being that efficient in getting up that early to beat the Dim Sum rush on weekends.
In another posting in Chowhound, we had coined a term that provides a ready-made answer for the many comic and inane situations in the NYC Chinatowns:
“It’s Chinatown.”
We stole the term from the movie “Blood Diamonds,” where the character Archer played by Leonardo DiCaprio, uses the phrase “It’s Africa” in a more serious vein to describe the inane and terrible things happening in Africa.
But on reflection, of course, the reasons for the many comic and inane situations in the Chinatowns are not so mysterious when one considers that the Chinese immigrants in the Chinatowns are mostly from poor backgrounds, who have streamed into America with ambitions to wallow in the American dream of wealth and freedom without any knowledge of American culture, but with a strong will to work hard and make money, lots of it any way they can. The owners of Nan Xiang can be excused for not increasing the size of the XLB steaming station, as they wanted maximum tables for maximum profits, but of course forgot about the need to increase production.
Unfortunately, these immigrants in the Chinatowns do not have Harvard MBAs, otherwise they would have been able to calculate the optimum number of tables and optimum size of the XLB steaming station to produce the maximum profits. Immigrant groups of all persuasions and ethnic groups all labor in their “mom and pop” stores under the same lack of knowledge and managerial skills, but this is the normal generational progress for all immigrant groups as they slowly climb up the ladder of success.
Fortunately for Nan Xiang, they have a superior product without any strong competition in Flushing, and possibly in the whole NYC area, hence this little miscalculation has not hurt the Nan Xiang restaurant.
Nan Xiang Xiao Long Bao – There is More Than The Xiao Long Bao (Soup Dumplings)
Much thanks for your kind words.
If you plan to dine at Nan Xiang at the peak times on the weekends in the future, we take it that you are also a closet Masochist like ourselves who go to Nan Xiang on weekends. (LOL)
Nan Xiang Xiao Long Bao – There is More Than The Xiao Long Bao (Soup Dumplings)
Although the front room is where the action is so to speak with the XLB station, the cold food section, and the entrance to the kitchen where one can see the food dishes come out, we feel that on weekends, the back room is the quieter area (and more spacious also relative to the front area, but it is sort of a drab Siberia) without the 5 to 8 people jostling around near the cash register area waiting for a table, the waitresses adroitly crisscrossing through the standing waiting crowd with their food orders, diners entering and leaving the restaurant, and during the winter, the several tables in the middle of the front area next to the milling crowds are also subjected to arctic winds whenever the door is opened, which during peak dining times on weekends is on a constant basis.
Hence the choice is a quieter but drab Siberian back room, or the frenetic front room where the action is. But for most diners, it is just the luck of the draw, and one is happy to get any table, although we will decline the arctic tables during the really cold winter days and take our chances for the next table, which can be another 15 or more minutes. One must reluctantly choose their poison when one dines at Nan Xiang.
The XLB ladies have remarkably fast hands in making the XLB’s, don’t they? But in Shanghai, at the real Nan Xiang, we noticed that the XLB makers on the third floor in 2006 were men.
An update on the Nan Xiang restaurant in Shanghai by some friends who live and work in Shanghai now is that the real Nan Xiang in Shanghai has gone downhill. The last time they ate there in early 2010, the XLB’s were terrible with many XLB’s having no soup or flavor, and the first floor takeout window selling the cheaper XLB’s even worse, with thick skins, no taste broth, and non-tender pork fillings. They told us that they actually could not finish the takeout window XLBs and threw them out since they were so bad. And these are friends who enjoy food and have tried the DTF XLB’s in Taiwan and in Shanghai, which according to them were delightful tasting.
But according to our friends, the Shanghai Nan Xiang restaurant still has very long lines and is raking in the money, at Western prices on the third floor at $8USD per 8 XLB order. It is a shame that a restaurant with such a storied XLB history should succumb to greed, incompetence, or indifference or all three reasons.
P.S. We responded to your post reply to our “Beijing Immigration” riff, but the Chowhound police deleted our many posts. That was a lot of writing effort to naught! (LOL)
Nan Xiang Xiao Long Bao – There is More Than The Xiao Long Bao (Soup Dumplings)
We are most happy to hear that the Nan Xiang Restaurant gets a thumbs up from you, as we would have had to eat many “Bitter Melons” to bemoan our sad situation of only being able to eat substandard XLB’s in NYC, if you had given the Nan Xiang Restaurant a thumbs down. (LOL)
You can also try the turnip cakes, which we enjoy when we go to Nan Xiang.
The noodle dishes are good also, but regardless of which noodle dish you order, the dish is essentially a plain noodle dish, as the meats that are suppose to come with the dish are almost non-existent on bad days (one time there was no meat at all) and on good days, no more than a sample tasting of the meat ordered.
Yes, the Nan Xiang restaurant is quite inexpensive, as we have recommended Nan Xiang to younger relatives/friends as a cheap date restaurant.
Luckily for you, you went at a good time early on a weekday night, as on weekends and holidays, the typical scenario is:
a. Long Wait For A Table While Standing - An interminable wait for a table; upwards of 30 minutes to 1 hour plus; whenever we pass the Nan Xiang restaurant on weekends, there is always a huge crowd milling around the front entrance to Nan Xiang.
b. Side Dishes Are A Necessity - Ordering side dishes at Nan Xiang is not a nice to have, but a necessity at Nan Xiang, as otherwise your table will have nothing to eat for at least 30 to 45 minutes until your XLB order comes to your table, and this does not count the initial waiting time to snag a table. In a Chinese restaurant, a 30 to 45 minutes wait for your dishes to come is an eternity, since dishes usually come within 5 to 10 minutes of ordering.
c. Misery Loves Company - Typical of the dining experience at Nan Xiang is that all of the non-XLB dishes will come quite shortly after ordering and after eating all of the non-XLB dishes, the waiters will take away the plates and then you will sit waiting at an empty table devoid of any food and you will begin to feel anxious or is that further hunger pangs, but after looking around at the other tables, you will feel better as most of the other diners at the other tables are also sitting there with nothing on their tables waiting patiently like your table for your XLB orders.
d. Wishful Thinking - And while waiting, every time you see a waiter with an XLB order, the fervent wish is that it is your XLB order, but of course the XLB order always goes to a table other than yours.
e. All Is Forgiven - After many XLB orders are given to other tables, and when one is just about ready to leave the restaurant (at lunch one time, we witnessed one family telling the waiter that they could not wait any longer for the XLB order and had to leave for another urgent appointment) your XLB order(s) do magically appear at your table and all is forgiven.
f. Enjoying XLBs - You and your hungry tablemates dig in and eat the XLBs very quickly, which is a good thing since the XLB’s outer skin will start to harden once the XLB’s cool.
Luckily for the owners of the Nan Xiang restaurant, Chinatown Chinese diners are used to suffering in life.
For the first year or two after Nan Xiang first opened, the wait was not too bad on weekends as it had not gained the reputation of serving very good XLBs yet and the restaurant did not have the problem of the long waits for XLB orders, as the restaurant was only half the size it is now. The original restaurant was just the first area that you enter from the front door with the XLB steaming station and the cash register stand. When the restaurant next door went out of business, Nan Xiang leased that space which doubled the size of their restaurant, but they did not increase the size of their XLB steaming station, which is a vital needed improvement when just about every table orders several orders of XLBs. The original XLB steaming station is the one you see when you enter the restaurant.
And did you try the bathroom? The bathroom at Nan Xiang is much better than the run of the mill Chinatown bathrooms, but then the bathroom is in the new renovated portion of the restaurant.
Flushing Review: Deyi Peking Duck House
That is too bad, but it is just as well, as it was a very low low probability event to win one of those MegaBall lotteries in any case.
Now that we do not have to buy any MegaBall lottery tickets, we can instead use the money to go to Manhattan’s Chinatown with a probability of “1” to buy and eat one of those “Sweet Red Bean Pancakes” at the “Old Sichuan” restaurant.
Hopefully, you are just as stoic as we are toward the past, where we had written earlier in this thread that we “accept that all good things must come to an end.” This is a sad state of affairs when one has to philosophically accept that much that is good in the past must end, and this is usually the attitude of people who have been around a while and they themselves will be one of the things that will come to an end shortly. (LOL)
However, at our family, while we do not roll up “Sichuan green beans,” we still roll up tomatoes and soft scrambled eggs into soft fried scallion pancakes for dinner every once in a while. Traditions die out slowly.
Flushing Review: Deyi Peking Duck House
No, we have not had the good fortune to enjoy those duck eggs cooked in duck fat. We have had numerous Peking Duck dishes in Beijing, but have not encountered that dish, but it is possible that the dish was on the menu, but was not ordered.
We sheepishly must divulge that we cannot read Chinese, but must defer to members of my family who can read Chinese to order at restaurants when in China. This is not a good situation for us food wise, as we must depend on the food interests of the other family members.
Nor have we had the good fortune to visit Taiwan either. Your Peking Duck dinner in Taipei sounds inviting.
Whenever we have had the duck soup course in Beijing, the soup has always been the milky white broth only, without any vegetables or noodles, hence it is interesting to hear that in Taipei, the duck soup is served with cabbage and cellophane noodles. Live and learn.
We must win one of those large MegaBall lotteries to visit Taipei to check out the Peking Duck feasts with the many egg and shredded duck meat dishes cooked in duck fat.
Flushing Review: Deyi Peking Duck House
Thanks to both “Lau” and “Buttertart” for the info that the “Sweet Red Bean Pancakes” are sold at the “Old Sichuan” restaurant.
We will have to try the new “Nom Wah Tea Parlor,” the “Old Sichuan,” and especially the “Sweet Red Bean Pancakes” when we are in Manhattan’s Chinatown in the future.
Flushing Review: Deyi Peking Duck House
Thanks for the suggestion, and for sure the next time we are in Manhattan’s Chinatown, we will stop by “Nom Wah” to check with Wally Tang about our sugar coated dough balls.
Hopefully, the sugar coated dough balls will be on display for sale already.
With such a high interest in food that appears to be hard coded in your DNA, it was fortunate that you grew up in a very formative environment of a Chinese restaurant and bakery family in LA.
And for a young person, we have to say that your chopsticks are quite weathered from much use and you have food experience and knowledge far exceeding the typical young person.
