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VillyCarl's Profile

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Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

I have gone through my previous posts and nowhere do I see any personal attacks upon you. If you feel some are there, show me.

And yes, Paper an Ink libraries. I did quite a bit of research long before the internet even existed.

And I am well aware that in any scholarly research one must document the derivation of the evidence used to form a conclusion. That evidence can of course be derived from a number of types of sources, with repeatable experimental evidence forming the bedrock on which all other evidence stands.

1 day ago
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

That is the standard for commercially sold yogurt. Legal standards do not always reflect the truth of what a product is, it is just a standard for the labeling of a product. For example, Some years back, a company came out with a more natural ice cream. Because it did not use sucrose as a sweetener they had to label it as "Imitation" ice cream. Thus a product that used Honey, or maple syrup, or dextrose as a sweetener had to be labeled "Imitation Ice Cream" Did that make them any less a real Ice cream?

The legal standards for labeling a product also change over the years. Does that mean that the product that is yogurt changes?

Just because a product has not been tested to show the bacteria present, does not mean that they are absent.

And yes, there are products that are coagulated milk with other bacteria, but they smell and taste different than yogurt. Buttermilk, sour cream, and Kefir for example use other bacteria cultures, but they also taste quite a bit different and can be cultured enough to become semi solid like yogurt. Yogurt has been around for a long time before lawmakers decided to define certain specifics for what yogurt is.

Again if it walks, swims, flies, quacks and looks like a duck, it must be a duck.

1 day ago
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Nothing wrong with using commercial starters at all. With a starter you know you are getting a proven strain and what that strains characteristics are. No surprises. With a wild culture you do no know just what you are getting until you have made it. Can get a great strain, or a poor one.

Matsoni is a Georgian culture, and from what I understand, quite tart.

Aug 19, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Part of the problem with making "Yogurt" with not dairy liquids is that the lactic acid produced by the culture bacteria causes the proteins in the milk to coagulate into a semi solid mass. Thus you would have to have a solution of proteins that "Solidify" in an acid environment. Thus it may be that almond "milk" would not work for "yogurt" in any case. (Most likely would not)

Aug 06, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

"Duh, I did not use milk, but I do not understand why what I used did not work." Of course it did not work! Had you used a yogurt culture from a commercial yogurt it also would not have worked.

And your soy "yogurt" is not yogurt, but a yogurt substitute. For it to be yogurt, it must be made from MILK from an animal. It is quite likely that substitute for yogurt cannot be made from almonds at all.

"Full Definition of YOGURT

: a fermented slightly acid often flavored semisolid food made of milk and milk solids to which cultures of two bacteria (Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus) have been added"

Lactobacilli feed on lactose. Lactose is the sugar found in milk not in plants. Lacto has the same root as Lactate, lactation etc.

"lacto-
a combining form meaning “milk,” used in the formation of compound words ( lactometer ); specialized in chemical terminology to mean “lactate,” or “lactic acid.”"

Aug 05, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Not sure you can make a yogurt like food out of peanuts or almonds. You might try using a soy "yogurt" culture. That might give you a yogurt like food.

In any case it would not be yogurt as yogurt requires a milk of some kind from a dairy animal, not a milk substitute.

Aug 05, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

I have been using a culture from a store bought yogurt now for over 3 years. If your culture is not stable, look at how you are handling it. Most likely you are doing something that kills the best strain of bacteria in your culture allowing other strains to take over.

Jun 22, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Enzymes are not living creatures, they are chemicals manufactured by living organisms to catalyze other chemical reactions. Yogurt is produced from living Bacteria which turn lactose into lactic acid.

Jun 22, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

You assume that I do not know how to do scholarly research. I have used Paper and ink libraries, and such as the "Readers Guide to Periodicals" Microfiche's, as well as scholarly works on the internet. Of course when doing research on the internet one must be very discerning as to the source.

I am also fairly intelligent with an aptitude for the natural sciences. Intelligent enough to be able to carry 22 credit hours and make a 4.00 in Computer Engineering while doing so. Good enough at scholarly research to introduce a new technology to my computer security professor.

You also ignore the experiential evidence I have presented. I have made wine with bread yeast, and Ginger Ale and beer. Not as good as the strains that have been developed for that specific purpose, but it does work. I have also made wine and hard cider without the addition of any yeast culture beyond what was on the skins of the fruit.

Experimental data, repeatable experimental data, using ant's eggs and pepper stems does work to start yogurt culture. And repeatable experimental results trump all the "scholarly works" you can produce, if you can even produce them at all.

The burden of proof for any scholarly statement is on the person MAKING the statement, and telling someone to go find it themselves is a cop out. If a person is pulling their idea out of thin air it is a cheap trick to lend credence to their statements.

Jun 16, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Culturing wild cultures is always a gamble. Sometimes the results will be excellent, sometimes not so much so, and occasionally a complete failure. If you get a great culture it would be good to keep it and perpetuate that strain.

Jun 16, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

First hand experimentation trumps all the written works. That is the Nature of science. Form a Hypothesis from known information, formulate a repeatable method to test the hypothesis. All the "Papers" which you refuse to show will not take the place of first hand experiments. Or did you not listen to the fact that what I have been saying is backed by actual experience. For example that heat sterilized flour mixed with water and a bit of salt left open to the air will develop a yeast culture with which one can make bread. It is called "Salt Rising Bread" Of course sometimes it will develop an undesirable culture, but such is life.

Some of the other methods, such as the ant eggs to start yogurt have been used with positive results. Just because something is printed and distribute does not make it true. But even then since you refuse to show your sources, I have to conclude you are making them up.

So, if you want to be believed, show your proof. But then since what you are saying has been experimentally disproven, you obviously cannot.

Jun 15, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

If it is so easy to find, it would be simplicity itself to post them, so why do you refuse to do so?

May 02, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

You make the statements, it is your burden to show the proof of the research, not just say "Go look for yourself" As for San Francisco sourdough bread, a very simple Taste test will show that there is something that makes it unique. Sourdoughs made elsewhere simply do not taste quite the same. If those very same bacteria and yeasts are found all over the world why is the flavor of S F sourdough bread unique?
You also ignore the methodology for making a sourdough starter that involves BOILING the flour and water first, which would kill all the yeasts and bacteria in it, then setting it outside for a time to obtain the wild micro-flora. Again a simple experiment proves that you can "Harvest" wild yeasts. In fact in most places it is hard to avoid them entirely.
The "Grape skin myth" is also easy to disprove. Simply mix some flour and water then put some in each of 2 canning jars and boil them inside the jar (Using a boiling water Canner) then inoculate one with a grape skin that has not been washed and is not laden with chemicals to prevent spoilage.

May 02, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Again you simply reiterate what you had previously stated without ANY references. You also state OPINION as if they were fact. If you make claim to scientific research it is up to YOU to provide corroborating evidence. And yes, malolactic fermentation is use in SOME wines to produce a wine that is less harsh. It is not used in all wines, and the vintner chooses to use or not use it depending on the flavor he is trying to achieve. It is desirable in area where the acid content of the grapes is high, but is undesirable in area where the acid concentration is low. A brief overview can be found at http://wine.about.com/od/vineyardvoca... while a scholarly detailed explanation can be found at http://lfbisson.ucdavis.edu/PDF/VEN12...
You state "The bacteria and yeast were all found on the flour and grain, and adapted to work only on flour and grain, as I've stated" That is so easy to disprove that if is almost ludicrous. How? simply take a bit of sourdough started and put it into some pasteurized grape juice being very careful to exclude wild yeast contamination. Voila, fermentation and wine production. Not as good as wine produced using yeasts specifically bred for wine making, but wine nevertheless. BTW pasteurized grape juice is available at grocery stores under such brands as "Welch's"
One thing that strikes my attention is that repeatedly you state that certain bacteria / yeasts will only work in certain very narrow conditions, and nowhere else. There are very few species that are tightly bound to a very narrow set of growing conditions, and the more "primitive" the organism, the less specialize they tend to be. You would have us believe that yeasts and lactobacilic bacteria are such very specialized organisms when they grow under widely varying conditions and in competition with many other microbes.
For some reason you try to define such as sour cream, creme fraiche, yogurt etc as narrow very items when in fact they are part of a wide spectrum of dairy products which blend into each other without sharp boundaries.

May 02, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

You state the "Scientific" studies of sourdough starters reveal that grapes or grape skins contribute no bacteria or yeast to create a sourdough or that work on grain. Funny, I have both used bread making yeast (NOT BACTERIA) and wine yeast to make both wine and bread.Both types work in each application. I would like you to produce your references to back up your statements. The "Bloom" on the skin of the grape is a yeast colony that will rapidly grow when sugars become available for it to feed upon.

Contrary to your opinion, the air is full of yeast spores waiting to land on an appropriate growing medium. You can toast flour, mix it with water and some salt, set it out and it will develop a yeast colony. One recipe I have seen calls for boiling a flour water mix to cook the flour, then cool it and set it outside for a day. Then bring it in and keep it in a warm place. The boiling of the flour breaks down some of the starches into sugars which the wild yeast spore can then use for food. It also calls for mildly acidifying the mix to help prevent unwanted bacteria.

May 01, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Only Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus will produce yogurt?? Not so! Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus delbrueckii, Bifidobacterium Lactis, -Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris, Acetobacter orientalis and others are are also found in various types of yogurt. There are numerous types of yogurt, and each has its defining mix of lactobacilli. In addition to our "Normal" yogurt found in markets throughout the USA there are such types as Matsoni (From Georgia, the country, not the state), Viili, Piima (from Finland), Filmjolk (Sweden) to name a few.
The two you mention will produce "Bulgarian" yogurt.
The list I have provided is not a complete list of all dairy lactobacilli species by any means nor is the list of types of yogurt complete.

As far as how the milk is thickened, the production of Lactic Acid coagulates the milk proteins in the same way that putting vinegar into milk will curdle it. The thickening process in yogurt does not use rennet.

You also seem to think that Lactobacilli are used to make wine and bread. Not true, those are made by yeasts. Yeast are fungi, not bacteria. Yeasts growing in an anaerobic environment covert sugars to ethanol and carbon dioxide. And the yeasts on grape skin will grow in bread, feeding on the sugars present there, just as bread yeast will produce wine and beer. It is just that certain strains do a better job in each application.

But there are also many different sugars chemically. They include glucose aka dextrose, fructose aka levulose, Maltose, Tagatose, lactose, and galactose to name a few.

Rennet is not a live organism but a mix of chemicals know as enzymes. It can be extracted from mammalian stomach and various other non animal sources. It is used to coagulate the proteins in milk.

May 01, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

lactobacilli are very widespread. After all, they are what ferments cabbage to make sauerkraut without the use of a culture, and also Kosher dill pickles, not to mention Kimchee. It is just a matter for finding the right strains. People have also used Ant eggs and dirt form an ant colony to get yogurt started. It is a matter of finding plants etc that suppress undesirable strains in obtaining a useful culture.

May 01, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Actually yogurt from the wild is not that hard to get started IF you know how to get the original starter culture. You can get if fro, of all places, chilies stems. Just place the stems of several chili peppers into milk that has been heated to at least 160° F for 10 min or more (pasteurization temperature) and then keep warm (85° to 105°) until it has set up. The first batch will of course have a spicy taste to it, but subsequent generations will lose that spiciness.

Apr 30, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Pipérade

This is alo very good with eggs cooked on top of it, put it in a skillet, and drop the raw eggs onto the piperade and cook until desired doneness. (Cover a bit if you want the whites all solid) You can easily vary the heat to the desired level by changing the proportions of paprika and cayenne.

Sep 21, 2009
VillyCarl in Recipes

Why Is It Bad to Run Cold Water over a Hot Pan?

One exception to the cold wate in a hot pan is Cast Iron Pans. I have clean my Cast iron pans for years by running cold water into a very hot cast iron pan. Never a warp of any kind, never a problem. I do not use soap in my well seasoned cast iron as it will wash away the seasoning, Just cold water in the hot pan

Aug 29, 2009
VillyCarl in Features

Are Whole-Wheat and All-Purpose Flour Interchangeable?

When it comes to wheat flours, there are three catagories which have not been addressed here.There is Pastry flour, which comes from "Soft" (summer) wheat, and has a lower gluten content. Then there is "all purpose flour, which is a mix of the two, and then there is Bread Flour which is made with "Hard" (or Winter) wheat. whole grain pastry flour is more finely milled than the other varieties, and make very good pie crusts, muffins and cakes, albeit with a bit more "wheat" flavor. I have been using it for decades and always get tender flaky pie crusts. The problem arises because almost all the whole wheat flour you get in grocery stores is all purpose, not pastry or bread flours. Thy type of flour (pastry, all purpose, bread) can make a very big difference. Try making white flour pie crust with bread flower! Pure cardboard.

Aug 29, 2009
VillyCarl in Features

Do Bulk Bins Ever Get Cleaned?

Anyone who is worried about the "bacteria" getting into the bins of bulk food have obviusly never seen the way Grains, beans. seeds and other foods of this nature are harvested, stored and handled! The very growing of the food take place in a septic environment. The harvesting process is very dusty, and the bins that the grains etc go into on the harvesters are left out in the weather, likely as not all year around. Any farmer I know of would laugh if you told him he should clean his combine hopper before doing the harvest. the grains are then transfered to open bed trucks and hauled to the silos, or somtimes even stored on the ground for a while. Rats mice and insect get ito the product while in storage. That is why the USDA has a limit (Not zero) for rat and mice feces, and insect parts. Wether you buy bulk, plactic bagged, of processed flours etc, those are going to be there. Harping about the small contribution of open bins is making a mountain out of a mole hill considering the overall picture/

Aug 29, 2009
VillyCarl in Features

Is a Bell Pepper a Chile Pepper?

If you raise Bell Peppers in the same area as hot pepers, they will produce Capsaicin and become mildly hot.

Aug 29, 2009
VillyCarl in Features

Does Refrigerating Tomatoes Ruin Their Flavor?

The other thing that happens to tomatoes under 55 degrees is that they convert the sugars to starches, giving them a mealy texture and reduced flavor

Aug 29, 2009
VillyCarl in Features