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Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Why do you say / imply that I have stated things that I did not? To make curds effectively from artichoke "chokes" one must make an extract. Was an extract used used? That was not revealed. There are too many variables in this picture for there to be a firm conclusion. Note, you say "and lactobacilli, lactococci, enterococci, streptococci and yeasts as ripening agents." so it is quite possible that what happened if an extract was not used was to produce a fermented yogurt type product. Hence what I said about 2nd + generation cultures.

Sep 13, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

But unless steps were taken to refine the rennet like enzyme, it could also have been wild lactobacilli that caused the coagulation. The test is to re culture from the resultant batch. The point is, there is not enough information to make that determination at this point.

Sep 12, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Lactobacilli could well exist on artichoke chokes. The real test would be if the first material could be used to culture more generations of yogurt.

And by the way, artichokes are thistles, so saying artichokes and thistles is redundant.

Sep 12, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Why Is It Bad to Run Cold Water over a Hot Pan?

Allan, I see several fallacies in the statements you have made here. You state that a warp could only happen if the material was close to melting point of the metal. The metal does not have to be anywhere near its melting point for it to be bent or stretched. Ductility is a measure, of how much a metal can be deformed when is nowhere near its talking point. A thermal differential can create stresses high enough to bend and stretch and metal at temperatures far below the melting point.

You also seem to confuse elastic deformation/flexing with warping. It is true that airplane wings, radio towers, even skyscrapers, will deflect a ways when put under stress. As long as they do not exceed their elastic limit they will return to their original shape. But placing cold water in a very hot pan can cause stresses which will cause deformation exceeding the elastic limit, stretching and bending material permanently.

There are many examples of molecular changes taking place in metals below the melting point. These include such processes as cold forging, work hardening, metal fatigue, and stress induced enbrittlement.

When cold water hits an expanse of very hot metal it causes a localized cool spot. When the metal cools it shrinks due to thermal contraction. This puts the stress on the metal which can cause it to stretch. When the rest of metal cools and contracts around it, a stress is created Due to the fact that the stretched area is now to large and it bends to relieve the pressure. That is how your work comes about.

Sep 12, 2014
VillyCarl in Features

Why Is It Bad to Run Cold Water over a Hot Pan?

The thicker the pan / pot, the more resistant it is to warping. That is fairly obvious. But some fairly thin pots are still out there for sale, so one must be careful. Also, you use 100°C for calculations, but it is quite easy to have a pot or pan at 250° or thereabouts so that needs to be taken into consideration. The materials themselves also have to be taken into account. Copper, aluminum, stainless steel, carbon steel, cast iron all have different strengths and coefficients of expansion as well as different rates of thermal expansion.

A pot of 8" / 20 mm is common, but there are many fry pans which are 10 or 12 inches/30 cm. also. A thickness of 1 mm is not all that thick, and with a 240° temperature difference and the cold water hitting a localized area are like to warp. Successive incidents would also exacerbate any warping.

The thinner the pot/pan, the larger the diameter, the higher the rate of thermal expansion, sorter the material, the higher the temperature and the lower the conductivity the more like a pot/pan is likely to warp.

And as mentioned with laminate pots / pans, you can have separation of the plies that is not even visible.

Sep 12, 2014
VillyCarl in Features

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Get a "Do not touch" container to hold some yogurt for the next batch? Make sure it is well marked so no excuses?

Sep 09, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

My, what a strong reply. Do not like me pointing out fallacies?

As far as "Personal and anecdotal" information, I have not used any. In science, definitions of anecdotal evidence include: "information that is not based on facts or careful study" "reports or observations of usually unscientific observers" "casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis"

I am an amateur scientist, and have been for many decades. Amateur Scientist have made many important discoveries whether they have high academic credentials or not. A persons experimental evidence does not have to be accredited by some major industry / university to be valid.

Also, I DID NOT attempt to rebut any of this scientists statements, just YOUR conclusions drawn from them.

While I do not have an advanced degree, I have had PhD's tell me that my undergraduate work was Masters and even doctorate level work. I have also managed to maintain a 4.0 GPA taking 22 credit hours and working a part time job.

Bottom line, I am erudite enough to be discerning about both what is and is not said in an article. Such as your statement "It's an article about SOURDOUGH MICROBIOLOGY." Actually, no it is not. It is about the differences in sourdough cultures and some of their characteristics, but a scientifically rigorous article on sourdough microbiology it is not. It obviously was not meant to be such,

Sep 08, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Hello, as you have already done this 3 times, you know that using pepper stems can be a bit of a gamble. I would advise that once you found a culture that you like, perpetuate it. Take some of the yogurt that you have left and place it into a new batch of milk and ferment if again. You can keep a culture alive for many years that way. I have been using the same culture over many generations for about 3 years now.

How firm your results are, are dependent upon several factors. These include the strain of bacteria, how long they ferment and the temperature at which the fermentation takes place.

I make 4 to 6 quarts of yogurt at a time in "recycled" 32 oz. yogurt containers from commercial yogurts. Just wash them thoroughly after each use.

Ant eggs, yes just put them in prepared milk and allow to ferment. It is up to you whether you fish them out, I doubt they would hurt you as we eat insect bits all the time in various of our foods.

Once you have a good culture that you like, I would keep it and reuse it. Why gamble when you have a good thing?

Sep 08, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

I see you finally provided a reference...sort of. I say sort of because you did not provide a way for anyone to access it and verify your source. IN fact it is from an multi author article on sourdough bread making and only glancingly mentions yogurt at all. One phrase mentions yogurt as an example and draws no conclusions about yogurt. I therefore believe that you took this reference out of context.

By the way, here is the link to that article: http://faqs.cs.uu.nl/na-dir/food/sour...

Roland says
"No. I think starters are different, a good starter should be treasured. Fortunately, the very valuable work of Ed Wood makes it most simple to prove. All you have to do is to try the Russian or another "fast" starter from Sourdough International vs a slow starter from them. The behavior of these starters is very very different with respect to rate of leavening, and ultimate levels of acidity produced and anybody willing to spend a few $$ can verify this. I also think that starters are discernibly different with respect to flavor. In fact the classical San Francisco sourdough does have a signature flavor that no other sourdough I have tasted resembles (I do not have the SI San Francisco culture so do not know how their version of it behaves with respect to the signature flavor).
I am also skeptical of grape based starters, etc. I know Nancy Silverton and other celebrated bakers advocate this but I can see no logic in it. Grapes indeed have yeast and lactobacilli on them. The problem is these particular varieties of yeast and lactobacilli have never been recovered in any sourdough starter that has been examined from any place in the world. These organisms are undoubtedly specific to grapes as certain other lactobacilli are specific to yogurt. There are hundreds of strains of yeasts and equally large numbers of lactobacilli. These organisms develop niches where they thrive. To transplant an organism from one natural environment to another is not a formula for success. It is like taking a polar bear and putting it in the desert. There are hundreds of cheeses made based on very small differences in starter cultures and processing. These people are undoubtedly celebrated bakers but to them a yeast is yeast and a yeast on a grape is a "wild yeast" and they have no understanding of any of the nuances. I do not claim to know what exactly is resident in their starters and whether any organisms they introduce from the grape actually survive and are viable over time (years as opposed to weeks).”

Both what he says and DOES NOT say in this article are interesting. You say "Yes, there are differences across batches and regions, but there is a definitive core colony group for both sourdough starters and yogurt" but this article simply does not support that. Rather, what he says supports that there are different sourdough cultures with quite different properties. One, in particular he mentions is San Francisco Sourdough which he states has a distinctive flavor.

He also states that he is "skeptical" about grape based sourdough starters, but he doe not say they cannot happen. In fact hes says "I DO NOT CLAIM TO KNOW what exactly is resident in their starters and whether any organisms they introduce from the grape actually survive and are viable over time" (emphasis added) I find that you are drawing conclusions from this source that simply are not stated by Roland.

You also say "I believe the scientists would say, "It can walk/talk/act like a duck, but if it doesn't have the genome of a duck, it's not a duck. It's something else." You did leave out "Looks like" But if I saw a bird that walked. vocalized, and acted like a mallard Drake, and had the plumage of a mallard drake, I would be a fool to call it a loon or a wood duck, much less a non duck bird, especially if I happened to be talking to a game warden.

There is a great deal of difference between anecdotal references and scientifically reproducible. A practice performed by many people using reproducible means and showing the same repeatable results are NOT anecdotal. Reproducible practices / experiments are the very backbone of scientific knowledge.

Sep 08, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

There are many different bacteria that can produce a product that looks like yogurt, but likely what you had would not have tasted like yogurt at the temperature conditions were not favorable for yogurt bacteria. Most likely you had "sour milk" which unless it tastes is highly unlikely to be harmful. There used to be many recipes for sour milk as an ingredient, but they seem to have disappeared as the occurrence of sour milk has become more rare. Milk that has been pasteurized tend to develop an unpleasant taste, while sour milk gets, well, tart in flavor.

Sep 07, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

ROFL who knows where the strains used in commercial yogurt originated. Some strains have be around for 100's of years passed down through the generations. Maybe they originated with ants. But weather they originated with ants, chili pepper stems, or who know where, the important thing is Do they taste good, and are they good for you.

Sep 07, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Ahem, yes, that would verify the practice of getting a yogurt culture from ants. All that would be needed would be for some of the 2 yogurt lactobacilli present to get the yogurt culture started.

Aug 23, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Ah yes. Lactobacillis are ubiquitous in many foods. They produce pickles from cucumbers, sauerkraut from cabbage, Kimchee from a number of different and a number of other fermented products. None of these of course are anywhere near to what yogurt is like.

Being able to make soy "yogurt" is not surprising as soy protein is easy to coagulant into "soy cheese" also know as Tofu. Like milk, the proteins in soy do easily coagulate under the right circumstances.

That is not necessarily true of almond "milk" and "milk" made from other sources. Coconut milk, for example, has been around for a long time, but I have never heard of an equivalent to tofu made from it.

As for the "mat" on top of kombucha, "Kombucha is sweetened black tea fermented by a mixture of yeasts and bacteria that form what looks like a “mat” on the surface. Sometimes called a symbiotic colony of bacteria and yeast (SCOBY), the “mushroom” or simply the “mother”, this “zoogleal mat” ferments the sugar, producing alcohol, vinegar, and other by-products" (from http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/k... ) That mat is not cellulose, but rather a symbiotic yeast / bacterial colony.

Aug 23, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

I have gone through my previous posts and nowhere do I see any personal attacks upon you. If you feel some are there, show me.

And yes, Paper an Ink libraries. I did quite a bit of research long before the internet even existed.

And I am well aware that in any scholarly research one must document the derivation of the evidence used to form a conclusion. That evidence can of course be derived from a number of types of sources, with repeatable experimental evidence forming the bedrock on which all other evidence stands.

Aug 20, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

That is the standard for commercially sold yogurt. Legal standards do not always reflect the truth of what a product is, it is just a standard for the labeling of a product. For example, Some years back, a company came out with a more natural ice cream. Because it did not use sucrose as a sweetener they had to label it as "Imitation" ice cream. Thus a product that used Honey, or maple syrup, or dextrose as a sweetener had to be labeled "Imitation Ice Cream" Did that make them any less a real Ice cream?

The legal standards for labeling a product also change over the years. Does that mean that the product that is yogurt changes?

Just because a product has not been tested to show the bacteria present, does not mean that they are absent.

And yes, there are products that are coagulated milk with other bacteria, but they smell and taste different than yogurt. Buttermilk, sour cream, and Kefir for example use other bacteria cultures, but they also taste quite a bit different and can be cultured enough to become semi solid like yogurt. Yogurt has been around for a long time before lawmakers decided to define certain specifics for what yogurt is.

Again if it walks, swims, flies, quacks and looks like a duck, it must be a duck.

Aug 20, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking
1

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Nothing wrong with using commercial starters at all. With a starter you know you are getting a proven strain and what that strains characteristics are. No surprises. With a wild culture you do no know just what you are getting until you have made it. Can get a great strain, or a poor one.

Matsoni is a Georgian culture, and from what I understand, quite tart.

Aug 19, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Part of the problem with making "Yogurt" with not dairy liquids is that the lactic acid produced by the culture bacteria causes the proteins in the milk to coagulate into a semi solid mass. Thus you would have to have a solution of proteins that "Solidify" in an acid environment. Thus it may be that almond "milk" would not work for "yogurt" in any case. (Most likely would not)

Aug 06, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

"Duh, I did not use milk, but I do not understand why what I used did not work." Of course it did not work! Had you used a yogurt culture from a commercial yogurt it also would not have worked.

And your soy "yogurt" is not yogurt, but a yogurt substitute. For it to be yogurt, it must be made from MILK from an animal. It is quite likely that substitute for yogurt cannot be made from almonds at all.

"Full Definition of YOGURT

: a fermented slightly acid often flavored semisolid food made of milk and milk solids to which cultures of two bacteria (Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus) have been added"

Lactobacilli feed on lactose. Lactose is the sugar found in milk not in plants. Lacto has the same root as Lactate, lactation etc.

"lacto-
a combining form meaning “milk,” used in the formation of compound words ( lactometer ); specialized in chemical terminology to mean “lactate,” or “lactic acid.”"

Aug 05, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Not sure you can make a yogurt like food out of peanuts or almonds. You might try using a soy "yogurt" culture. That might give you a yogurt like food.

In any case it would not be yogurt as yogurt requires a milk of some kind from a dairy animal, not a milk substitute.

Aug 05, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

I have been using a culture from a store bought yogurt now for over 3 years. If your culture is not stable, look at how you are handling it. Most likely you are doing something that kills the best strain of bacteria in your culture allowing other strains to take over.

Jun 22, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Enzymes are not living creatures, they are chemicals manufactured by living organisms to catalyze other chemical reactions. Yogurt is produced from living Bacteria which turn lactose into lactic acid.

Jun 22, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

You assume that I do not know how to do scholarly research. I have used Paper and ink libraries, and such as the "Readers Guide to Periodicals" Microfiche's, as well as scholarly works on the internet. Of course when doing research on the internet one must be very discerning as to the source.

I am also fairly intelligent with an aptitude for the natural sciences. Intelligent enough to be able to carry 22 credit hours and make a 4.00 in Computer Engineering while doing so. Good enough at scholarly research to introduce a new technology to my computer security professor.

You also ignore the experiential evidence I have presented. I have made wine with bread yeast, and Ginger Ale and beer. Not as good as the strains that have been developed for that specific purpose, but it does work. I have also made wine and hard cider without the addition of any yeast culture beyond what was on the skins of the fruit.

Experimental data, repeatable experimental data, using ant's eggs and pepper stems does work to start yogurt culture. And repeatable experimental results trump all the "scholarly works" you can produce, if you can even produce them at all.

The burden of proof for any scholarly statement is on the person MAKING the statement, and telling someone to go find it themselves is a cop out. If a person is pulling their idea out of thin air it is a cheap trick to lend credence to their statements.

Jun 16, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Culturing wild cultures is always a gamble. Sometimes the results will be excellent, sometimes not so much so, and occasionally a complete failure. If you get a great culture it would be good to keep it and perpetuate that strain.

Jun 16, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

First hand experimentation trumps all the written works. That is the Nature of science. Form a Hypothesis from known information, formulate a repeatable method to test the hypothesis. All the "Papers" which you refuse to show will not take the place of first hand experiments. Or did you not listen to the fact that what I have been saying is backed by actual experience. For example that heat sterilized flour mixed with water and a bit of salt left open to the air will develop a yeast culture with which one can make bread. It is called "Salt Rising Bread" Of course sometimes it will develop an undesirable culture, but such is life.

Some of the other methods, such as the ant eggs to start yogurt have been used with positive results. Just because something is printed and distribute does not make it true. But even then since you refuse to show your sources, I have to conclude you are making them up.

So, if you want to be believed, show your proof. But then since what you are saying has been experimentally disproven, you obviously cannot.

Jun 15, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

If it is so easy to find, it would be simplicity itself to post them, so why do you refuse to do so?

May 02, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

You make the statements, it is your burden to show the proof of the research, not just say "Go look for yourself" As for San Francisco sourdough bread, a very simple Taste test will show that there is something that makes it unique. Sourdoughs made elsewhere simply do not taste quite the same. If those very same bacteria and yeasts are found all over the world why is the flavor of S F sourdough bread unique?
You also ignore the methodology for making a sourdough starter that involves BOILING the flour and water first, which would kill all the yeasts and bacteria in it, then setting it outside for a time to obtain the wild micro-flora. Again a simple experiment proves that you can "Harvest" wild yeasts. In fact in most places it is hard to avoid them entirely.
The "Grape skin myth" is also easy to disprove. Simply mix some flour and water then put some in each of 2 canning jars and boil them inside the jar (Using a boiling water Canner) then inoculate one with a grape skin that has not been washed and is not laden with chemicals to prevent spoilage.

May 02, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Again you simply reiterate what you had previously stated without ANY references. You also state OPINION as if they were fact. If you make claim to scientific research it is up to YOU to provide corroborating evidence. And yes, malolactic fermentation is use in SOME wines to produce a wine that is less harsh. It is not used in all wines, and the vintner chooses to use or not use it depending on the flavor he is trying to achieve. It is desirable in area where the acid content of the grapes is high, but is undesirable in area where the acid concentration is low. A brief overview can be found at http://wine.about.com/od/vineyardvoca... while a scholarly detailed explanation can be found at http://lfbisson.ucdavis.edu/PDF/VEN12...
You state "The bacteria and yeast were all found on the flour and grain, and adapted to work only on flour and grain, as I've stated" That is so easy to disprove that if is almost ludicrous. How? simply take a bit of sourdough started and put it into some pasteurized grape juice being very careful to exclude wild yeast contamination. Voila, fermentation and wine production. Not as good as wine produced using yeasts specifically bred for wine making, but wine nevertheless. BTW pasteurized grape juice is available at grocery stores under such brands as "Welch's"
One thing that strikes my attention is that repeatedly you state that certain bacteria / yeasts will only work in certain very narrow conditions, and nowhere else. There are very few species that are tightly bound to a very narrow set of growing conditions, and the more "primitive" the organism, the less specialize they tend to be. You would have us believe that yeasts and lactobacilic bacteria are such very specialized organisms when they grow under widely varying conditions and in competition with many other microbes.
For some reason you try to define such as sour cream, creme fraiche, yogurt etc as narrow very items when in fact they are part of a wide spectrum of dairy products which blend into each other without sharp boundaries.

May 02, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

You state the "Scientific" studies of sourdough starters reveal that grapes or grape skins contribute no bacteria or yeast to create a sourdough or that work on grain. Funny, I have both used bread making yeast (NOT BACTERIA) and wine yeast to make both wine and bread.Both types work in each application. I would like you to produce your references to back up your statements. The "Bloom" on the skin of the grape is a yeast colony that will rapidly grow when sugars become available for it to feed upon.

Contrary to your opinion, the air is full of yeast spores waiting to land on an appropriate growing medium. You can toast flour, mix it with water and some salt, set it out and it will develop a yeast colony. One recipe I have seen calls for boiling a flour water mix to cook the flour, then cool it and set it outside for a day. Then bring it in and keep it in a warm place. The boiling of the flour breaks down some of the starches into sugars which the wild yeast spore can then use for food. It also calls for mildly acidifying the mix to help prevent unwanted bacteria.

May 01, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

Only Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus will produce yogurt?? Not so! Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus delbrueckii, Bifidobacterium Lactis, -Leuconostoc mesenteroides subsp. cremoris, Acetobacter orientalis and others are are also found in various types of yogurt. There are numerous types of yogurt, and each has its defining mix of lactobacilli. In addition to our "Normal" yogurt found in markets throughout the USA there are such types as Matsoni (From Georgia, the country, not the state), Viili, Piima (from Finland), Filmjolk (Sweden) to name a few.
The two you mention will produce "Bulgarian" yogurt.
The list I have provided is not a complete list of all dairy lactobacilli species by any means nor is the list of types of yogurt complete.

As far as how the milk is thickened, the production of Lactic Acid coagulates the milk proteins in the same way that putting vinegar into milk will curdle it. The thickening process in yogurt does not use rennet.

You also seem to think that Lactobacilli are used to make wine and bread. Not true, those are made by yeasts. Yeast are fungi, not bacteria. Yeasts growing in an anaerobic environment covert sugars to ethanol and carbon dioxide. And the yeasts on grape skin will grow in bread, feeding on the sugars present there, just as bread yeast will produce wine and beer. It is just that certain strains do a better job in each application.

But there are also many different sugars chemically. They include glucose aka dextrose, fructose aka levulose, Maltose, Tagatose, lactose, and galactose to name a few.

Rennet is not a live organism but a mix of chemicals know as enzymes. It can be extracted from mammalian stomach and various other non animal sources. It is used to coagulate the proteins in milk.

May 01, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking

Making yogurt without using commercial yogurt or starter

lactobacilli are very widespread. After all, they are what ferments cabbage to make sauerkraut without the use of a culture, and also Kosher dill pickles, not to mention Kimchee. It is just a matter for finding the right strains. People have also used Ant eggs and dirt form an ant colony to get yogurt started. It is a matter of finding plants etc that suppress undesirable strains in obtaining a useful culture.

May 01, 2014
VillyCarl in Home Cooking