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Love the Dinner, Hate the Sin
We used to think there wasn’t a food-lover alive who didn’t want to keep the door wide open to immigration. After all, the more immigrants who come to the United States and form communities, the better chance a nearby restaurant (or food cart) will soon be offering amazing arepas or delicious dosas. Heck, the restaurant industry says it would come to a screeching halt if every illegal immigrant were suddenly deported.
But it seems that not all those who love ethnic foods love the people who make them. Progressive Los Angeles Times columnist Joel Stein followed anti-immigration presidential candidate Tom Tancredo in Iowa and sat down to dinner with him … at a Mexican restaurant. The dinner, at the hideously named Carlos O’Kelly’s Mexican Café, was a culinary peek into a horrible future, in which immigrants are assimilated (Tancredo’s hope) into the larger, blander culture. “The enchiladas came with a sort of hollandaise sauce that constituted a greater insult to Mexicans than anything Tancredo has ever said,” writes Stein, who also affirms that “Our waiter … was one of the nicest, most incompetent servers either of us had ever encountered. He kept running away in the middle of our orders, apparently distracted by either Mexican or Irish things.”
Despite the quality of that particular meal, Tancredo tells Stein that Mexican is his favorite cuisine, but doesn’t let that fact loosen his stance on immigration. Sadly for Tancredo, his position on Mexican food could affect something he has a better chance of gaining than the presidency: extra pounds.
Posted by | Thursday, November 29, 2007 at 9:51am | 32 comments
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Not for nothing, but you do know that something like 85% of Americans are very much against both Illegal Immigration and our current Immigration policies. That 85% would like to currently limit our current immigration and/or reverse it (i.e. deport the criminals who came here illegally).
Also, that bland culture is sometimes referred to as American Culture (by the un-enlightened).
"a horrible future, in which immigrants are assimilated (Tancredo’s hope)"
That might read "a horrible future, in which immigrants are assimilated (America’s hope)" Again, it is the small minority (in any country in the history of the world) that do not want immigrants to assimilate.
And, why is it weird that Tancredo loves Mexican food? Because he doesn't want the rest of the country to turn into Los Angeles (the least trusting city in the Country according to Robert Putnam)?
This reminds me of the recent flap in Gourmet's letters section, regarding their "Latin-American Foods in America" issue. Some pinheads saw this coverage as glorifying illegal immigration in some roundabout way -- just bizarre.
More at: http://mattbites.typepad.com/mattbite...
Is there a middle ground between assimilation and Balkanization? Poles, Italians, Greeks, etc all became Americans, but in this century we have immigrants wanting to set up enclaves that exclude others. Not to mention individuals who actively wish to harm this country.
We definitely need immigration reform, but that isn't the same as allowing unrestricted immigration.
The desire for a new taste sensation isn't justification for opening the country up to terrorists and persons likely to spread tuberculosis, polio, or other unpleasant afflictions.
Akitist, remember that in the Bad Old Days, people were basically "forced" to assimilate. Many people have never heard the history of shutting down German Speaking Schools during World War I because of German-American support for our enemy.
Or that the reason why our "Common Schools" were started in the first place was to assimilate Catholics. This is why there are so many Catholic schools in America. Protestantism was basically the defacto religion taught in schools.
The list goes on and on and on.
I personally have no truck with immigrants. My mother is an immigrant. But most people are sorely mis-educated when it comes to our glorious history of Immigration.
Time to smack the ignorance out of the xenophobic rednecks:
1) The idea that Mexicans do not assimilate is stupid & ignorant. I am a first generation, Mexican initially-illegal immigrant... and look at my I am posting on Chowhound with my fellow "All Americans"... I have a wife whose ancestors immigrated to Nebraska from Scotland & Moravia in the 1880's, proudly bi-lingual, bi-cultural & Mexphile... drive a gas guzzling sedan, shop for consumerist crap at Target & the Mall... I'd say I am pretty assimilated.
Do I read, view & listen in Spanish? Absolutely... but so do many nth Generation "white" Americans... get over it. A Mc... walks around with his Ireland jacket and nobody thinks twice... a wear a Mexico track jacket and I get dirty looks in the Midwest... double standard?
What people erroneously do is project... the guy who has been here 5 years, working 80 hours a week and still hasn't learned English etc.,... that is what all Mexicans are like, regardless of how long we have been here... or for how many generations! Clueless! The vast majority of Mexicans assimilate to their possibilities based on age & education level.
2) The idea that your ancestors assimilated quickly & in their first generation is also stupid, baseless & ignorant. Anybody who knows the history of Chicago & New York City... and who has been there recently knows that everyone from Germans to Irish to Eyetalians to Poles, Serbs, Lebanese, Greeks... you name it... all had their own language newspapers, businesses, and little kingdoms.
Hell... if you go to the Greenpoint area of Brooklyn / Queens you still find hundreds of old, blonde-blue eyed Poles speaking Polish as their primary language.
The United States - from sea to shining sea - is filled with hundreds if not thousands of towns founded by specific immigrants who chose to built their own little enclaves... where they wouldn't have to be around the "other low-life immigrants from x inferior European country"... In California... we have Solvang... a late 19th century Danish town built around schools where Danish kids from all over the U.S. could come to study Danish.... and be with like minded people. Sebastopol played a similar role for Soviets. In Texas there are still numerous German & Czech towns. In Kansas, there are a few Swede towns.
My friend Larry who has a German last name & looks Lebanese was fathered by a Mexican migrant farm worker... was born in a German town in Indiana where almost every has a German last name... and until the 1950's German was the dominant language... a town where Black Seed Grass is still labeled N....r Seed
If anything I am willing to stake a Benjamin that Mexicans are the fastest assimilating ethnic group in U.S. history... well maybe behind the African-Americans.
Now back to Stein's moronic reporting & the sloppy summary.... I wonder if those Enchiladas with the "Hollandaise" weren't really a version of the 1950's classica Enchiladas Suizas (bathed in a Gruyere cream sauce) known to just about every urban Mexican in Mexico?
Oh... and Extra Pounds? Given that Mexico has a lower rate of obesity than the U.S.... is that pock shot really necessary?
Having a tough stance on ILLEGAL immigration doesn't make Mr. Tancredo, or the majority of Americans for that matter, anti-immigrant.
Chow writers would best serve their readers if they stuck to stories and facts about food, and not let their personal bias effect their writting.
Right on, Eat Nopal.
bkhuna, I think if you think it's possible to write about any topic under the sun and not let your personal biases influence what and how you write, you're kidding yourself. Food is political.
"The idea that Mexicans do not assimilate is stupid & ignorant."
Great, I am stupid and ignorant.
"I am a first generation, Mexican initially-illegal immigrant... and look at my I am posting on Chowhound with my fellow "All Americans"..."
Yes, one person is a wonderful sample-size for this kind of debate. It might be better to look at a larger sample size like Los Angeles or El Paso, Laredo, or Brownsville. These places are hardly shining examples of American assimilation.
"The idea that your ancestors assimilated quickly & in their first generation is also stupid, baseless & ignorant"
I could not agree more. After a huge wave of Irish and Eastern European immigrants America started the Common School movement (i.e. Public Schools). These schools had Protestantism as the de facto religion to teach morals to the Catholics. And this was the impetus for so many Catholic schools.
However, crime went up drastically where these new Immigrants moved to. Anti-Irish sentiment was so drastic in some places that Freed Blacks in Chicago would move out where the Irish moved in.
During World War I, German speaking schools were closed and German was banned from being taught in Public Schools.
From the Founding Fathers to about 1965 the American Government followed what would now be considered pretty Racist Immigration policies. And each wave of massive immigration was followed by "stop" on immigration.
Regardless of what anyone thinks of these past actions, they played a big role in what would eventually happen.
I hope no one thinks that I am Anti-Immigrant or Anti-Mexican. Like I said before, my mother is an immigrant. As for Mexico, well, I am a huge fane of their Immigration policy.
Oops, fane = fan
DougRisk... I grew up in East L.A.... and like I said I am a former Illegal Immigrant... and my circle of former & current illegal immigrant relatives, friends & acquaintences numbers well over a thousand. 1,000 stories I know farely well.
I am hoping someone could describe what Assimilated means... because I honestly can't think of anyone that isn't assimilated... in the way I define what it means to be an American.
I am sure DougRisk has a definition of Assimilation that perfectly describes him... but of course doesn't fit any of his relatives.... human nature my friend.
Two quick points:
> People ignore that immigrants are still coming... so they encounter someone who has been here for 6 months... and conclude Mexicans don't assimilate... and I think that is the constant misperception. Further, augmented because Mexican immigration is now reaching towns & cities in the U.S. heartland where it had never been... so of course the locals only see the result of people being here 1, 5 or even 10 years.
Like I asserted.... Mexicans are one of THE FASTEST assimilating groups in U.S. HISTORY!
> Second, regarding Mexico's immigration policies... there are almost 1 million Americans living in Mexico.... and many have obtained Naturalization (they qualify after 5 years of residency)... many are there illegally (particularly in Baja).... further think about this when dealing the with the stupidity of the "We Need to Protect Our Borders" argument....
On any given day there well over a million U.S. citizens on Mexican soil... many resort areas there would logically be great Al Qaeda targets... Cancun particuarly. Other great targets include Petroleum installations & the Valle Verde Nuclear Reactor... or the various Nuclear research sites....
Bottom line is that both Mexico & the U.S. have a shared security interest... and should work in partnership not building a stupid, embarrassing & ineffective wall (I guarantee that as long as the U.S. is addicted to large quantities of immigrant labor, and the U.S. insists on pushing for no tariffs on its cheap, subsidized Ag products ... people have no choice & will find a way in.... probably driving across the border like I did, or flying in like many of my relatives).
Nopal, I did talk a lot about assimilation problems in the past. However, I did not mean that to be my main point. My point is this: according to every poll and survey that I have seen, and based on my own simple observation of what most Americans want, America does not want more Immigration. And especially not Illegal Immigration.
Americans are not anti-immigration, not by a long-shot. America is most likely the most pro-immigration country in the history of the world.
However, most would like to see a limit for at least the time-being.
And our representatives are supposed to represent our interests. Is it possible that our interests do not reflect what would be most perfect for our short and long term future? Sure. But that does not matter.
America is for Americans.
And like I said before, I did not mean to imply that what happened in the past (i.e. Events in American History that revolved around immigration and immigrants) was great and awesome in every way. But that our history has been sorely misrepresented.
Immigrants had to deal with some brutal attitudes from Native-born Americans.
Maybe Hungarian immigrants in Pennsylvania were the best at assimilating. Maybe they were the worst. Maybe Mexicans are the best nowadays. Maybe they are the worst. It simply does not matter.
Our politicians and our policies are supposed to represent our interests.
p.s. I know you did not go into detail on shared security interests, but I imagine that you and I agree on most of those issues.
Fine... so you are withdrawing the Assimilation card and now moving on to the point that Americans don't want more immigration.... I am not sure that is so true... definitely not 85%.
1) Currently... what we have is an American public that is afraid, feels insecure, teetering on recession wishing they could withdraw into mama's cocoon & looking for scapegoats.
But, if you demonstrate to Americans that ending immigration would increase their Cost of Living (without significantly improving Salaries for the vast majority of people), result in an almost certain collapse of Social Security... and most likely a recession in the near term... I think they might have a different opinion.
2) I know in California & New York... the majority of people would like immigration to continue... given the types of lifestyle the middle class here is accustomed to, they would be stupid not to.
You also shifted... to well Americans just want a temporary curb on immigration.... that is very, very, very easy... two ways:
1) Status Quo.... do nothing, allow the market to do its things... as the U.S. moves into recession... immigrants have a harder time find jobs, many return failing in their quest for fortune and it dissuades others from coming.
2) Create a real, not-Mickey Mouse, mechanism to bring in foreign labor from Mexico... use economic forecasts to determine how many workers will be needed each year and only issue that many Visas. If its relatively easy to get Visas & its tied to the natural ebbs & flows of capitalist economies... people on the Mexican side of the border will likely be patient & wait for the Visa... because no one really likes risking their lives in the desert or living as outcasts.
3) If you are an American that doesn't really want further immigration well then put your money where your mouth is and don't spend any with companies that employ & RECRUIT illegal immigrants... Wal-Mart, Tyson Foods, 90% of U.S. Farmers etc.,. etc., Of course don't whine when a head of lettuce is $4, the cost of a Nanny is $15 per hour (like here in Sonoma County where I live)... and a good housekeeper goes for $14 to $20 per hour.
"so you are withdrawing the Assimilation card"
I never meant to withdraw or insert it. That particular point was about how messy our immigration past has been. But that history is not taught in our Public Schools. However, all of that is not part of my central point so I did want to re-focus.
I have no problem talking about assimilation, but, again, that is not my main point.
"But, if you demonstrate to Americans that ending immigration would increase their Cost of Living (without significantly improving Salaries for the vast majority of people), result in an almost certain collapse of Social Security... and most likely a recession in the near term... I think they might have a different opinion."
California is BY FAR, the least affordable place to live in the 48 contiguous states. Other places that have the highest ratio of Mexican and Central American immigrants (i.e. Los Angeles or El Paso, Laredo, Brownsville, etc) either have high crime rates, overflowing Public Schools, unaffordable Housing, or all of the above.
"result in an almost certain collapse of Social Security"
Social Security already went broke, in 1982. At the time we had to implement the greatest tax-hike in American history to save it. But that is a story for another day.
"I know in California & New York... the majority of people would like immigration to continue... given the types of lifestyle the middle class here is accustomed to, they would be stupid not to."
It is difficult for me to speak about California because I have only spent a short time there. However, Native born Americans are leaving in droves. The ratio of Median-Salary/Housing-Prices is insane.
However, NYC I am very familiar with. I am from New Jersey and worked in NYC for years. The entire metro area has become increasingly expensive. Native-born Americans from the NYC Metro area keep moving further and further out into the suburbs. And I am specifically talking about families. Middle-class people with school-age children.
Jeez, I could go on for hours on the effects that immigration has had on Schools and Emergency Rooms alone. You might think that these schools are under-funded. NJ has the most expensive (public) schools in the world (well, top 3).
"You also shifted... to well Americans just want a temporary curb on immigration"
Like I said, I did not want to shift anything. I will gladly talk about any issue. But, yes, I believe that most Americans want (at least) a temporary stop to Legal and Illegal immigration.
I also believe that a large minority, possibly a majority would like to see those who broke our Federal laws deported.
"do nothing, allow the market to do its things... as the U.S. moves into recession... immigrants have a harder time find jobs, many return failing in their quest for fortune and it dissuades others from coming."
If that is what Americans want. If so, fine.
"Create a real ... mechanism to bring in foreign labor from Mexico"
If that is what Americans want. If so, fine.
"If you are an American that doesn't really want further immigration..."
If that is what Americans want. If so, fine.
I dont mean to speak for Americans. I am just one. I am simply speaking for what I believe Americans want. This I gather from direct observation and polls and surveys.
"California is BY FAR, the least affordable place to live in the 48 contiguous states. Other places that have the highest ratio of Mexican and Central American immigrants (i.e. Los Angeles or El Paso, Laredo, Brownsville, etc) either have high crime rates, overflowing Public Schools, unaffordable Housing, or all of the above."
> So the illegal immigrants are driving up the prices of your average $1MM home? California may have expensive housing (pay attention here... its because people are moving here from the midwest for information intensive jobs... and there is greater competition for housing... California has a large + migration balance... so how can people really be leaving in droves? Wouldn't the real estate market collapse? You can't have it both ways.
> Illegal immigrants are the reason for the high crime rates? That is funny given that they are less likely to commit crimes as compared to native born Americans in the same socio-economic level. Further... illegal immigrants have lower rates of conviction PER CAPITA than native born Americans (despite the misleading info provided by morons & liars like O'Reilly...just go to the U.S. Department of Justic site for the latest jail census & see it for yourself).
> Illegal immigrants are at fault because government has allowed infrastructure to crumble. They are at fault because your senator is choosing to fund pork barrel projects like Quail hunting reserves instead of public schools?
"Social Security already went broke, in 1982. At the time we had to implement the greatest tax-hike in American history to save it. But that is a story for another day."
TODAY... Social Security still brings in more than it spends... however its projected to bust as soon as the majority of the baby boomers retire. It is STILL salvageable. The nature of the problem is simply of a skewed Age Distribution... and stupid government policies. Back when the baby boomers were all paying lots into the system.. and the retired population was low... the Reagan morons were cutting taxes... and others were spending money on useless crap like the space program... instead of investing the money for the future liabilities. Now the only way to save it (without affecting benefits) is to create more working age Americans to shoulder the burden (that means either immigration or child slavery).... and start managing the age distribution intelligently.
"Native-born Americans from the NYC Metro area keep moving further and further out into the suburbs. And I am specifically talking about families. Middle-class people with school-age children."
Again are you scape goating the immigrants for this?
"Jeez, I could go on for hours on the effects that immigration has had on Schools and Emergency Rooms alone. You might think that these schools are under-funded. NJ has the most expensive (public) schools in the world (well, top 3)."
You are barking up the wrong tree. You can't scape goat the immigrants for any problems in New Jersey. I spent some time out in Parsippany supervising a property transaction... the company we were selling was infested with Geese that were over protected.... there are no freaking left turns allowed in the state... and all your roads go in circles....lets not even go into your State Government history of corruption and mob ties. NJ is screwed up by native born Americans.... give the illegals a chance to manage the state... they can't possibly do a worse job =)
"I also believe that a large minority, possibly a majority would like to see those who broke our Federal laws deported."
Sure... when the government really starts prosecuting middle class, sub-urban crimes like drug possession, excessive speeding etc., I think the "large minorty, possibly a majority" will have the moral basis to enforce the Federal laws.
"So the illegal immigrants are driving up the prices of your average $1MM home? California may have expensive housing (pay attention here... its because people are moving here from the midwest for information intensive jobs... and there is greater competition for housing... California has a large + migration balance... so how can people really be leaving in droves? Wouldn't the real estate market collapse? You can't have it both ways."
The average home was not 1 Million dollars. It has become that much over the last few decades. The prices in California have risen much faster than the rest of the country in that period. And, yes, Native born Americans are leaving California, at least according to census data and polls. However, they are being replace by Immigrants (legal and illegal). So, the population in Calif. relative to say 1980 is drastically larger, but the amount of housing did not keep pace.
Supply and demand.
Check the average price of a 3 bedroom house with a garage in a safe neighborhood with "good" schools in LA (or SF or San Diego) and compare it to almost any other part of the country. The price is amazing.
Now, housing in Pennsylvania and Illinois and many other places have become much higher as well, but they did not rise at anywhere near the pace of SoCal and NoCal.
"its because people are moving here from the midwest for information intensive jobs" The number of people moving to Calif from Ohio and Kansas and Missouri to work for Google pales in comparison to the number of people who have moved there from Mexico/Central America.
"That is funny given that they are less likely to commit crimes as compared to native born Americans in the same socio-economic level."
You can slice the data any way you want, but Los Angeles, El Paso, Laredo, Brownsville and every other town that has a large percentage of Mexican and Central American Immigrants has a high crime rate.
Actually, I can not think of one town in America that has a large Mexican population that does not have a high crime rate.
"just go to the U.S. Department of Justic site for the latest jail census & see it for yourself"
Why would I bother looking at some data that was sliced in a particular way. All I need to do is look out my door.
"They are at fault because your senator is choosing to fund pork barrel projects like Quail hunting reserves instead of public schools?"
Like I said, our Public Schools are not under-funded. The United States has one of the most expensive public schools in the history of the world. And NJ almost always tops the list. Money has very little to do with it. Utah and North Dakota consistently rank at the bottom for spending on schools and almost rate at the top for things like SAT scores and HS graduation and college attendance.
It can seem at times that spending and taxes have an inverse relationship to academic success. But, this is a little off-topic. Every state and town that has had a massive amount of legal and illegal immigration has had its public institutions stressed to the max.
But, that is normal. Populations are not meant to fluctuate like that.
"TODAY... Social Security still brings in more than it spends... however its projected to bust as soon as the majority of the baby boomers retire. It is STILL salvageable. The nature of the problem is simply of a skewed Age Distribution... and stupid government policies. Back when the baby boomers were all paying lots into the system.. and the retired population was low... the Reagan morons were cutting taxes... and others were spending money on useless crap like the space program... instead of investing the money for the future liabilities. Now the only way to save it (without affecting benefits) is to create more working age Americans to shoulder the burden (that means either immigration or child slavery).... and start managing the age distribution intelligently."
Again, I think that this is getting a little off-topic. But, again, it was Reagan (who I have no love for) who helped enact the BIGGEST Tax hike in American history in 1982 to save Social Security.
"Again are you scape goating the immigrants for this?"
I am not scape-goating anyone.
No left turns, that is what the residents in NJ need to worry about?
Why did you not respond to my central point? ("If that is what Americans want. If so, fine.") I have tried to address everything you brought up.
And, I understand that my response to Miriam was a little hot under the collar. Politics was brought up and I reacted.
But when people started responding to what I wrote, specifically you, I really tried to talk to you in a respectful and dignified manner. But your tone to me has been quite disrespectful.
I imagine that you have a lot more to say on the subject, I would be happy to continue this. It is a very important subject. But I hope that we can speak in a more constructive way.
And if I have acted in a manner that is not conducive to that, then I will need to change my ways as well.
"just go to the U.S. Department of Justic site for the latest jail census & see it for yourself"
Why would I bother looking at some data that was sliced in a particular way. All I need to do is look out my door.
> The cat is out of the bag.... you are one of those making ignorant deductions not based on any thing real.
You dismiss the Department of Justice Report (DOJ)? What is your basis? You think the government is lying about who is in jail (well ignore Guantanamo & the secret prisons for a second)? Why would the governement want to make Hispanics or Illegal Immigrants look good? There is no MORE COMPLETE or UNBIASED report than the Department of Justice.
The DOJ is very clear on its census... Hispanics make up 14% of U.S. population but only 16% of Federal Prison population (yes that is slightly disproportionately high... but if you take into account income levels... Hispanics are LESS likely to be in jail than Whites)... when you look at the population of non-US born inmates it is disproportionately LOWER than for US born inmates.
But when people started responding to what I wrote, specifically you, I really tried to talk to you in a respectful and dignified manner. But your tone to me has been quite disrespectful.
I imagine that you have a lot more to say on the subject, I would be happy to continue this. It is a very important subject. But I hope that we can speak in a more constructive way.
If you want to continue this on a constructive level (of which I don't think you are capable of because you are clearly on too low of Maslow level to look at things logically) you can read the essay on my website when I take it live in a couple of months.
"The cat is out of the bag.... you are one of those making ignorant deductions not based on any thing real."
"You dismiss the Department of Justice Report (DOJ)? What is your basis?"
I am not dismissing anything. But, again, the towns with the most immigrants have the highest crime rates. All I meant with the "slice and dice" comment is that (as a former Prob and Stat major), if you get enough statistical data, you can make it say anything you want. The trick is to have the data and basic human observation meet.
" I don't think you are capable of because you are clearly on too low of Maslow level to look at things logically"
What is this? I really wanted this conversation to continue and improve. I think that have smart people make smart arguments on important topics is a truly valuble thing. Expecially if other people are reading this.
But you make comments like that. I'll be honest, I do not even know who Maslow is. I am not sure if that shows me to be ignorant.
But, either way, my central point has gone untouched.
Here is a quick recap:
"do nothing, allow the market to do its things... as the U.S. moves into recession... immigrants have a harder time find jobs, many return failing in their quest for fortune and it dissuades others from coming."
>>If that is what Americans want. If so, fine.
"Create a real ... mechanism to bring in foreign labor from Mexico"
>>If that is what Americans want. If so, fine.
"If you are an American that doesn't really want further immigration..."
>>If that is what Americans want. If so, fine.
====================================
My guess is that at this point you have categorized me as some idiotic racist who get bad information from shameless people and therefore I am best ignored and possibly pitied.
If that is true, I want to say that I am not:
- anti-Mexican
- anti-Immigrant
- a Racist
- uninformed
And I believe that I try my hardest to be a contemplative adult whoe represents himself in a manner that would preclude him from being an idiot.
I am definitely not a genius, but I truly care about many important issues.
Doug since you are ignoring the Department of Justice census which IS NOT a statistical analysis it is a characterization of the ENTIRE JAIL POPULATION... whereas you prefer to stick to the places with higher immigration have higher crime rates statistical INTERPRETATION... I can only conclude that you have made up your mind...and not willing to accept facts.
Yes, from what I have seen thus far I have concluded that you believe Mexican immigrants are a bunch of unassimilated criminals.
You can read more about Maslow here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's...
Now... I am going to bite on your little Mexican / Central American immigration correlates with higher crime rates...
As you might know correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation. Just because those cities have higher crime rates... doesn't mean the Mexican / Central Americans are causing the phenomenon.
Further... 19th Century New York, 1980's New York, contemporary Detroit, Newark, & Atlanta all cities with low Mexican / Central American immigration with some of the very highest crime rates in the U.S.
Now it gets interesting.... O'Reilly & all the other moronic pundits who imply that CRIME IS ON THE RISE and its because of Mexican / Central American immigrants should at least read the latest FBI's "Crime in the United States" Report which unequivocally proves the CRIME IS ON THE DECLINE IN THE LAST 20 YEARS!
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/ta...
The report PROVES that Crime Rates where lower in 2005 than in 1986 for EVERY TYPE of CRIME!
Clearly (by your logic) Mexican / Central American immigrants (of which we can agree there are more today than twenty years ago) bring somekind of sorcery that makes native U.S. born people have better hearts & consciousness causing less crime!
Come on give me your next Fox News argument, I am ready for it!
"Doug since you are ignoring the Department of Justice census"
I am not ignoring anything. I don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. And if you say that the DOJ has stats on this and that, then I absolutely believe you.
Growing up in Middletown, NJ the worst town (near us) was Keansburg. Everybody knew it. Nobody ever bothered to check Police Dept, FBI, DOJ or any other statistical compilation. I am not dismissing anything.
I live life and look with my eyes. And migrant workers and other Mexican/C. American immigrants were and are common in many parts of NJ (and other places that I have been).
And I am quite confident that few of these immigrants were committing crimes. However, you would also see those communities and towns take a turn for the worse. For all sorts of reasons.
"As you might know correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation. Just because those cities have higher crime rates... doesn't mean the Mexican / Central Americans are causing the phenomenon."
Great point. And that is sort of what I was addressing in the previous paragraph.
"Further... 19th Century New York, 1980's New York, contemporary Detroit, Newark, & Atlanta all cities with low Mexican / Central American immigration with some of the very highest crime rates in the U.S."
No doubt. I absolutely agree. And that plays a big part in my personal opinion on immigration. But, that is not really important here.
"The report PROVES that Crime Rates where lower in 2005 than in 1986 for EVERY TYPE of CRIME!"
Yes, its true. Crime was at its highest during the Crack Epidemic. But, people don't care about numbers, they care about real-life. And, yes, they hated what they saw in 1986. And people, by my estimation, hate what they see in so many places today. Most of these people are either children or grand-children of immigrants. Yet, they still want to either limit or stop current immigration. And it is their interests which form my central point.
"Clearly (by your logic) Mexican / Central American immigrants .. bring somekind of sorcery..."
No sorcery. But this continues on what I was saying near the beginning. The point that I don't believe America (or any other country) has ever had a "wave" of immigration that wasn't followed by real unrest. This could be clash of cultures, or a rise in crime, population displacement, whatever.
And the larger the "wave" (i.e. more immigrants in less time), the bigger the unrest.
So, should all immigrants be cast off to Hell? No.
So, should immigration be cut-off forever? No.
But the Native Born (in this case) Americans should have the most say and should have their thoughts and opinions represented by their representatives.
Maybe their thoughts and opinions are mis-informed. OK. Well, I was hoping that I was doing my small part to help with that. An attempt at having a reasoned debate.
"Come on give me your next Fox News argument, I am ready for it!"
I never watch Fox News. I tried to address that idea with my "...bad information from shameless people ..." comment.
If you are going to pin something on me, at least try something new. I hope that by now I have shown myself to something other than a cliché.
Doug the Teflon Man....
Look like I said I grew up in East L.A.... I moved to West L.A. (one of the most expensive, demanded of the middle class neighborhoods in L.A.) the year I entered business school.... where I lived for 4 years before moving to Northern California's wine country.
L.A. has a much greater immigrant population than where I currently live... the average professional wages are about 15% higher than in Sonoma County (luckily I still have the same job with an L.A. headquartered company).... but the Cost of Living was substantially lower (outside of housing).... I could go to a Thai place for a $6 lunch, $10 for a serious meal at my local Oaxacan eatery, Indian was $10 for 2 people.... stylish haircuts could be found for $15, produce & groceries were about 20% cheaper than in Sonoma County (where we suppossedly have some of the most reputable farms in the country)... to me I can clearly see what will happen around the U.S. if immigration slows down.
Now... here is the kicker... I am not really advocating for more immigration to Sonoma County because it doesn't have the education infrastructure that L.A. does. In 1950's L.A. high school graduation rates among middle class Whites was 50%; only 4% obtained a bachelor's degree... as the U.S. shifted to the Post-Industrial economy (trying to maintain a competitive edge as the industrial base in Europe & Asia recovered from WWII)... people started getting greater education levels... immigrants were necessary to fill the blue-collar void.... and further with immigration came pressure on the White middle class to get an education.... it was self-enforcing cycle.
All the economic challenges facing the U.S. are a reflection of increased competition from Europe, Asia & the developing world. After WWII, the U.S. was the ONLY game in town.... America enjoyed the spoils of war (govt loans to European countries for reconstruction, were appreciated with open markets & inside track on industrial privatization)... and the lack of competiton. U.S. corporate profits soared, and the ruling class in the U.S. wisely saw fit to share the spoils with the masses (to avoid the growing threat of communism)... and that is when the tract home, 2 car driving, dog & cat, pension, health care & world class infrastructure, U.S. middle class was invented.
Unfortunately it was an artificial, or at least short term level of prosperity that was invented. To meet those expectations the U.S. needs to constantly invent new technologies & push productivity improvements.... this requires constantly churning out highly educated, trained people... and thus the necessity to bring foreign labor to fill the resulting gaps.
The economic conservatives (which dominate the Federal Reserve) argue that the U.S. needs to have substantial financial liquidity & supply (in other words freed up investment capital)... the idea is that if you wealth is distributed among too many people... you will not have enough people with the time & excess money to invest in emerging companies.... but if you allow wealth to concentrate you empower investment particularly venture capital (that is vital to fund new & emerging technologies)... so under this argument goverment (lead by the Reaganites) have systematically & progressively shifted a substantial amount of the tax burden from the wealthy to the middle class... but in order to prevent economic collapse (brought on by eroded consumer confidence & thus lower spending as happened in Japan)... they have arranged for anti-inflationary measures... or things that lower or control the Cost of Living.... these include massive immigration, Gulf War & Operation Iraqi Freedom, NAFTA, China's Most Favored Trading Nation status etc.,
Of course there are other reasons that have informed those decisions as well... tie in the world's last major Socialist country, keep a foothold on strategic commodities etc.,
There are many reasons goverment allows illegal immigration - and yes they sure do (before we obtained our Green Cards my parents both worked with fake social security #s which could have immediately triggered an alert in the Federal Government's databases... the government has a very good idea of who is illegal, where they work & where they live... but have chosen to look the other way) - they mostly converge around the fact that U.S. (based on its currently lifestyle demands & strategic plan to main them) is addicted to immigration.
Americans have a right to decide what is best for them... but they need to understand all the factors, implications & facts to make a wise decision. In the meantime... some politicians conveniently egg on the illegal immigration bashing rhetoric while consciously voting for appropriation bills that underfund the governments ability to indentify illegal immigrants (via W-9 submissions), and have often even been found guilty of employing illegal immigrants in their homes (read Pete Wilson's nanny & Arnold Schwarzenegger's home improvement contractors).... the cynic would view it as Divide & Conquer.
Give the middle class a convenient, defenseless scape goat while continuing to strap it with the tax burden & falling inflation-adjusted incomes... a nice diversion.
"Look like I said I grew up in East L.A.... addicted to immigration."
Lets just say that everything you said is absolutely true and accurate. It still comes down to ...
"Americans have a right to decide what is best for them"
Thank God.
"but they need to understand all the factors, implications & facts to make a wise decision. "
And I believe that a "wise decision" in your opinion will be very different than the "wise decision" they would likely make.
If current immigration levels were limited, or stopped, or even reversed, would things be different? Absolutely.
But, if things were different, they wouldn't be the same. In other words, things are always changing.
But it should be the choice for Americans to make.
I am almost scared to make this next comment for fear that it will divert the conversation, but, you have alluded more than a few times about how the Right-Wing feels about immigration, but...
I don't have the numbers in front of me, but if I remember correctly, it was Bush and the Republicans who were most in favor of things like Amnesty, Permits, etc in 2007. Not that he Democrats were anti-Immigration.
Assuming that we associate the Right Wing with Republicans, it would seem that the idea of Right-Wing = Anti-Immigration is a little dated.
Again, I am not talking about each and every Repub and each and every Dem, just talking about aggregate numbers and vote tally's.
There are Anti-Immigration pundits on both sides of the aisle. It is my perception that those on the Right Wing side... approach it more from a xenophobic perspective or at least pander to those who do (some of the stuff spewed by the Minute Men's leadership.... other than being outright foolish & almost comical.... is almost like paraphrasing German & Austrian Nazi leaders).
The anti-immigrant Left Wing... I think approaches more from the perspective of pandering (and some caring) about the blue collar American Joe who is going to continue to have a hard time.
I am not necessarily in favor of continued immigration (although I would never, ever, ever, ever oppose it because that would be hypocritical at most I would stand in the side lines... but I am not going to tell someone else they can't come just because I am already settled down)... however if the country decides that it does need additional immigrants then the country needs to stop being hypocritical & darwinist about it... and actually grant them the status & dignity human beings deserve (or at least that is what the U.S. claims to be all about in International forums).
Even if Americans, are being harmed by it, and are anti future immigration they should have the decency & grace to not take it out on the OTHER innocent victims of the global economic nightmare. Nothing pisses me off more than the image of a lazy, laid off worker, who no longer has a job because he wouldn't comprise his union's excessive aspirations and chooses to live of unemployement & welfare because he doesn't want to take a lower paying job.... and then hating on the Mexican immigrant who chose to leave the land he loves because cheap, subsidized U.S. agricultural imports & global warming have destroyed his way of life... and instead chose to make lemonade, risked his life crossing the desert to do the jobs no American wants to take will absorbing all the racist bull and all the other baggage that comes with being an illegal immigrant (believe me its not fun... even as a kid you constantly worry about whether your parents will make it back home... or whether they will be caught in one of those high profile raids executed for show).
"however if the country decides that it does need additional immigrants"
My guess is that the average person (American, or otherwise) will never be in favor of more immigration. Again, I am talking about averages.
Just look at places like Iceland, Finland, Japan, and many other countries. They have basically 0 immigration and have been that way for a long time. Yet, they don't seem to mind.
Also about Xenophobia...I think it is a lot more natural than any of us would like to admit. For many years, Europe looked down there noses at America for our "Race problem".
Now, France, Denmark, Sweden and so much of Europe is having huge problems. Does this suddenly make Swedes a bunch of racists? No, I dont think so.
However, the average Swede probably feels a lot more comfortable around other average Swedes.
And when two people, two different groups that is, come together, they clash. Is Sweden scape-goating these Muslim immigrants. Maybe. Maybe not.
But they know that they (the average person) never voted for this, but now they have to deal with it. And they are unhappy with it.
It always makes me angry when I hear in the news about jobs that Americans won't do.
My brother used to live in North Dakota which I believe was the Whitest or second Whitest state in the nation.
These people were not wealthy, nor were they poor. Who worked the fields in North Dakota. The North Dakotans did.
Who worked the gas stations and convenience stores in North Dakota. The North Dakotans did.
Who worked construction in North Dakota. The North Dakotans did.
Granted, even North Dakota is seeing more migrant workers nowadays.
Is there food cheaper? Possibly.
Are the houses bigger? Possibly.
Are the people happier with this setup? Well, the ones who can profit from it, yes, they are. The ones who do not profit, no, they are not.
But, the average person has almost no say in the matter. Yet, they are the ones who are affected.
So, am I advocating some sort of Racist future? Well, sorta (PLEASE HEAR ME OUT).
I am not talkin' about resurrecting Hitler. My mother's village was bombed by the Nazis.
But that race (or ethnicity, or skin-color, or whatever you want to call it) is real and people are very aware of it. And having huge changes in a short period is usually bad for "race relations".
But, if we are honest about these racial issues and things happen slowly where stability can be maintained (to the best of our ability), then I think that things would be much better.
Independent of how carefully you select your words & how much you pussy foot around it... I think you have clearly exhibited what you are... and I just hope you aren't one of those Fox News anti-immigrant pundits that whine when immigrant advocates rightfully label them as racists... and characterize this struggle as a Civil Rights movement.
One of the huge failures of American society - as I believe history will record it - is its complete failure (despite unprecendented wealth)... to create a better society.... its first 190 years were pretty dark... and afterward it failed to raise its people above the pettyness of other great empires (the lessons of Maslow were completely ignored).
100 years or so when U.S. is gradually displaced by China & India... we will all realize the wasted opportunity... and how everything created by the founding fathers was just thrown away for short term gain & pettyness.
I dont think that I have pussy footed around anything. I think that I have made my thoughts and opinions as clear as can be.
I think that some people need people like me to be racist. It is easier to dismiss my (our, that is, anyone who agrees with me) arguments that way.
"...whine when immigrant advocates rightfully label them as racists"
So, great. You have RIGHTFULLY labeled me as a racist.
"its first 190 years were pretty dark"
You know, it is truly amazing. I am something of a history buff, and by my estimation, no country in the history of the world has had so many people clamoring and fighting to get into it. And no country has our record in letting in immigrants.
And how do we get characterized: as being a terrible nation.
Can you possibly see why Americans, at this time, want to have fewer immigrants? Especially when statements like that are so common.
So many of the people who are literally dieing to get have children who grow up to hate us. But, this is not something unique to America. Not anymore. It is happening in almost every Western European country (Finland and Iceland excepted).
The second and third generation hate them. And the haters have all sorts of reasons. Are any or all of the reasons accurate. I dont know, I dont live there.
But, it becomes very easy to see why the natives don't want anymore. At least not until things calm down.
Eat_Nopal, I thought that our conversation was improving. That is, the way in which we were peaking to one another.
And I was happy about that. However, I it is fairly obvious to me that you have a certain amount for your adopted country. And it makes my blood boil.
And if I am wrong about that assessment, then I apologize. But I dont think I am wrong.
I have no problem discussing Americas problems. We are (now) a huge country with a population that doubled in an amazingly short period. And we need to address these problems.
But I love America. I love our Constitution. I love our character. I love what we used to stand for and I hate what we are quickly becoming.
My mother dreamed of coming to America. She had $150 and slept on a friends floor for a month. She ate no more than twice a day because that is what she could afford.
She left behind a country she loved and family she loved. Not knowing when she would see them again.
She came alone. She did not have a neighborhood, or city full of her people. She did not come in a wave of immigrants.
She met many people and one day met a man from Brooklyn. He was raised in a tenament in Bay Ridge. They married and moved to New Jersey and raised a beautiful family. My father would wake up at 5 am every morning and be home (usually) at 9pm each night (it was a long day and a long commute to NYC).
My brother and I were allowed to stay awake until my father got home so that he could kiss us good-night. My mother thought that any sleep we might lose on a school night was worth it so that we could see our father once per day. And she thought it was good for my fathers well-being as well.
And with all this: NO COMPLAINING.
Never. They knew what they had.
==============================
If it makes you feel better to call me a racist, go right ahead. If it makes you feel better to align me with people you hate, go right ahead.
I love my country. I am willing to accept its foibles and failures. I dont love those failures, I want to work towards making this a better country.
And there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to limit immigration.
Debateable? Absolutely. I am not the Grand Overlord and I never will be. I want to engage other Americans. I want to listen to them and I want them to listen to me.
If you are truly looking for a country to hate because of immigration laws, you should look to places like Iceland, Finland and Japan (and many, many other countries in the world).
I hope I did not go too far off. I would love to continue talking to you. You have talked a lot about different things and have obviosuly done your homework. I think that is great.
But, I do get angry at times. I love the USA, and I get defensive.
I don't hate the U.S., I love this country as much as I love Mexico... however, that doesn't mean I (or you or anybody else) should turn a blind eye to the country's "historical crimes".
I am not saying this country is unique... but it has a pretty dark history that most Americans like to sweep under the rug by focusing on the piddly amounts of aid (usually made for some strategic, economic, or military purpose and not for noble, charitable reasons)... or by its partial embrace of immigrants... or because people in other countries decide to "join them if you can't beat them".
Would you like a quick recount of my slightly cynical interpretation of U.S. history?
> 1776.... not abolishing slavery
> 1776 to 1900 genocidal wars against Native Americans
> 1823 Monroe Doctrine + Manifest Destiny concepts developed in the Mason Lodges... the U.S. began preparing for war against Mexico that would happen 20 years later
> 1880's Army brutalizes Union leadership, strikes are put out forcefully
> Turn of the Century.... colonized peoples in Hawaii, South Pacific & Carribbean for source of Sugar Cane (a clear definition of imperialism)
> Blew up its own ship & people to justify war with Spain
> Colonized Panama for logistics purposes
> U.S. involvement was iffy in both World Wars (purposely staying out until the enemy was weakened... allowing lots of ally bloodsheed)(
> Korea, Vietnam,
> Over threw Democratically elected governments throughout the world including Allende
> 1970's Funded & supported butchering of Mayan indians in Guatemala & Chiapas
I could go on.... now you tell my all those acts were noble instead of dark & disturbing.
Eat_Nopal - Quick Quiz:
Who abolished Salvery First - British Empire or America
How much time do you think the average Welsh Man spends wringing his hands over his Country's Slave trade?
"...genocidal wars against Native Americans"
Like I said before, my brother used too live in North Dakota. He got to know many Sioux there. Throughout there history they would tell stories of their battles and victories. Before the white man showed up, these were always against Native Americans.
I asked him if they ever felt guilty about any of the slaughter (and you better believe they were quite happy to slaughter their enemies), his reply, "Never.".
Now, I am not encouraging the idea of slaughter. Murder is evil.
But battles for land and resources back then (the world over) were common.
Up until about World War One, you can read stories from countries everywhere celebrating the crushing of there enemies. And there enemies were usually just the people living right next to them that had some good land and/or resources.
"1823 Monroe Doctrine + Manifest Destiny concepts developed in the Mason Lodges... the U.S. began preparing for war against Mexico that would happen 20 years later"
So what. Are you going to convict every nation in the 19th century that prepared for war? I do not relish any people going to war. "War is hell!". But to convict any nation for preparing for War and then going to war in the 19th century (or 18th, or 17th, etc) would be like convicting them for breathing.
Jeez, it would take forever to respond to all of these.
I am curious, where would you rank America compared to France, or Brazil or Japan or Mexico or whereever?
I am being absolutely serious.
I dont think that I ever implied that American politicians (and populace) is completely innocent of every crime and discrimination (Christ, just look at Bush and the Iraq War). So, I am not sure why I am being asked to respond to these.
I told you why I love my Country. And you say you love your country as well. But, I really can't believe it.
I would be curious if you printed up this entire exchange and asked some random people at your workplace (for a random sample) and ask them if one of the people held a deep-hatred for America. I think that you would be surprised.
"I would be curious if you printed up this entire exchange and asked some random people at your workplace..."
Actually, if you wanted to, you could print this exchange at Chowhound in the Midwest board (or New England board, or wherever) and ask for opinions. You would need to delete the names. You could title it "Food and Immigration" or something like that.
Granted, it might be against Chow posting policies.
Well, it was just a thought.
So your main point is that racism, discrimination, war fare, breaking promises etc., etc., are all human nature, normal and we should just accept it.
I think that is too small minded and believe that at the very least we need to struggle for a better world... I see what you are all about... and really don't think there is much to discuss... you prefer the anihilist route and aren't going to really consider anything I say...
The only thing I can tell you about your world view is.... "good luck with that"
"So your main point is that racism, discrimination, war fare, breaking promises etc., etc., are all human nature, normal and we should just accept it."
It is not a matter of accepting it. But is your opinion of America and worse or bettre than any other?
Do you hate Sioux Indians more than the average American because they have no guilt for their past slaughters?
"I see what you are all about"
Nopal, do you really see me for who I am? Each time you pinned me as something (Anti-Immigrant, O'Reilly Follower, FoxNews Lover, etc) you have been WAY off.
But now you get me?
"you prefer the anihilist route and aren't going to really consider anything I say..."
Each time you made an argument I tried to address each one. When you thought that I was shifting the debate, I tried to explain all of my actions.
When you said that I was ignoring your DOJ evidence, I tried to address it. I never ignored you. I worked to make this conversation more adult and more respectful.
I know it is silly to get hurt by an Internet conversation (on a Food site about Immigration, no less), but I am hurt.
I thought it was important that we engage each other on a certain level. We were obviously coming from opposing sides, so decorum was especially important.
And even when I got a "little hot under the collar" I tried to temper it.
But with the exception of one posting, you have been completely disrespectful to me. The tone, the accusations.
Its kinda funny actually. You obviously see me as Anti-Mexican, which I am not. You see me as someone who is dismissing, or even hating, a group; which I don't.
But you have completely dismissed me.
I tried to be an adult, and engage you in an intelligent conversation. When I finally did get angry, I tried to give you a small part of my Mother's immigrant experience, and it's effect on me.
And you could not care less. I am shit to you.
So, here I am, an idiot. Some idiot on the East Coast who is getting upset over some stupid Internet posting.
Well, trust me, I lost on this one.
Doug... read the posts carefully... the only thing you demonstrate to me is that you don't really care about addressing the real shit.... each time I made points you ignored their validity & shifted the argument... and tried to cleverly pin me as a hater.... I don't hate any group of people.... well may be the Minute Men, and fellow Mexicans that hate the indigenous masses... that was a very thinly veiled deflection and I don't buy your "innocent" tone for a second.
Finally... I will bite a little bit. I do know a number of Americans living in Mexico.... people who have been there 15-20 years, have citizenship, surround themselves by other Americans in their enclaves around Lake Chapala... speak mostly English, vote in U.S. elections... root for the U.S. baseball team when they face Mexico in the Olympic Qualifiers or World Classic.... heard them bash aspects about Mexico over coffee... and I could care less... don't judge them to be "Mexico haters" or think they are out undermine Mexican culture & society etc.,
As residents of Mexico, that contribute to the local economy... and often bring new skills & cultural traits... they have every right to analyze & speak truths... even if they aren't convenient or pleasant.
But that is just me.