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Dear Helena,
My brother recently told the family he wants to go to culinary school. He is 42, and seems to think that it's somehow going to lead to a high-paid job at a fancy restaurant. How can I tell him, tactfully, that he's making a really bad decision, is too old, and probably will never have success doing this?
—Don't Quit Your Day Job
Dear Don't Quit Your Day Job,
People flock to culinary school with dreams of having their own Michelin-starred restaurant or Food Network show. But those jobs are few and far between. Most people who work in restaurant kitchens make a pretty measly living. Chris Kronner, formerly the chef at Serpentine and Bar Tartine in San Francisco, attended California Culinary Academy, and thinks it was a waste of time. Out of his class of around 60 students, he's one of only two making a decent wage from cooking, he says. Some of his classmates are struggling to pay back the $60,000 to $70,000 cost of the 18-month program by washing dishes and working prep stations for as little as $10 to $12 an hour. The rest have given up the struggle and aren't working in the industry at all.
Even if your brother has money to burn, culinary school is poor training for restaurant work, says Kronner. "They don't teach you how to cook under stress, how to manage how you do prep, how to be responsible for multiple dishes that are cooked to order. They didn't teach a simple thing like how to sharpen a knife on a stone." Kronner has seen culinary-school graduates who didn't know how to do something as basic as salting a dish. So a culinary-school degree is not going to improve your brother's résumé. Shuna Fish Lydon, a pastry chef at Peels in New York, says that when she's hiring, "all that matters is the trail" (the process of working a test shift). In other words, it doesn't matter if you graduated with top honors from Le Cordon Bleu Paris. If your knife skills suck, you won't get hired.
If your brother is lucky enough to get a job, he may not be prepared for the brutal grind of restaurant work. He'll be on his feet 12 hours a day, possibly with zero bathroom breaks. Lydon remarks: "I go to the bathroom once a day, twice a day if I'm lucky. This is the industry of urinary tract infections." And kitchens can be dangerous places, she warns, not least because of the other people working there. "The kitchen has every kind of -ism that American society has: racism, sexism, ageism, and homophobia." People are "harsh, militaristic, and abusive." Early in Lydon's career, her boss attempted to teach her the lesson that a line cook should never grab a pan without a protective towel. Her boss did this by stowing a white-hot cast iron plancha (griddle) in the same compartment as the cold ones. Lydon received "a really horrible burn."
Fortysomethings who are not used to that lifestyle simply can't hack it. Lydon says, "I had a woman come into my kitchen the other day who was between 35 and 45, and she said, 'I'm a regular person, and I need to sit down once in a while.'" Needless to say, the woman wasn't hired.
So how do you set your brother straight? The most diplomatic and effective approach is to let him find out on his own. Suggest that he try restaurant work before he ponies up any culinary-school tuition fees. It may help if you point out that most of his idols probably got their start that way. Your brother can volunteer to work for free at a restaurant he likes. (Kronner says he often accepts such unpaid interns.) Rest assured, after a few nights of your brother getting yelled at because he can't brunoise those carrots fast enough, his "boring" day job is going to look a lot more attractive.
Though I dig planning & making a great dinner for those I love ,being a professional has no attraction.To have learned from the great Marcela Hazan would have been a pleasure but now that the Gordon Ramsays rule to shout in one's ear,their spittle flying into eyes ? No thank you.
I also think Kronner went to a crappy school. I went to a school in Montreal, Canada then finished my apprenticeship in France in a 3 Michelin Stars restaurant. I worked as Exec chef for 10 years and I teach in a culinary university in Mexico city.
Age does not matter same as culinary education or not. I had grads from the CIA who could not hold the line on a saturday night while I trained some...+READ
I also think Kronner went to a crappy school. I went to a school in Montreal, Canada then finished my apprenticeship in France in a 3 Michelin Stars restaurant. I worked as Exec chef for 10 years and I teach in a culinary university in Mexico city.
Age does not matter same as culinary education or not. I had grads from the CIA who could not hold the line on a saturday night while I trained some busboy and dishwasher who are now great chefs.
As I tell my students now, the same amount of energy and enthusiasm, interests and wanting to find out more you pour in your career, the same amount you will receive eventually. It is up to you to make something of your culinary education.
Every school will give you more or less the same thing: a base, a series of skills that you have to maintain and work upon. Kronner might have a bette job today if (I don't know him, but I am sure his work story is similar to many of the young students today) he had worked under a few tough chefs for a few year instead of chasing the title of chef.
As for age, yes it is a hard job, long hours, lousy pay but anyone who is willing to put up with it, will make something out of it. By going at it later in life, an older person as a different view of it and is, in general, more mature and more responsible.-COLLAPSE
My brother has a masters degree from an ivy league school. He is teaching at a junior college. I have an A.O.S. degree from culinary school and am making a little bit more then he does. The degree doesn't mean anything, it's what you do with that education, your passion and determination that really count.
I think maybe Chris Kronner went to a crappy school.....btw who is he anyway, sounds like some line dog. I mean Slow Club is good (i guess) for the neighborhood.
While I am on the topic, who is this age discriminating Pastry Chef? She sounds mad that her parents could not afford to send her to Paris.
This is America people, greatest economy in the world. Get a dream and chase it, don't...+READ
I think maybe Chris Kronner went to a crappy school.....btw who is he anyway, sounds like some line dog. I mean Slow Club is good (i guess) for the neighborhood.
While I am on the topic, who is this age discriminating Pastry Chef? She sounds mad that her parents could not afford to send her to Paris.
This is America people, greatest economy in the world. Get a dream and chase it, don't listen to the closed minded.-COLLAPSE
Let's be honest - The same really could be said for many college degrees.
Going into this business of food production is brutal work. I had some culinary training, some talent, and I had experience working with my mother catering to large groups, weddings and the like. There were days when I loved it, and days when it just sucked. I remember coming home, drenched with sweat and exhausted with barely enough energy left to shower and go to bed. And the pay was never...+READ
Going into this business of food production is brutal work. I had some culinary training, some talent, and I had experience working with my mother catering to large groups, weddings and the like. There were days when I loved it, and days when it just sucked. I remember coming home, drenched with sweat and exhausted with barely enough energy left to shower and go to bed. And the pay was never great. Now, I don`t do it anymore, but I don`t regret it either. I still love to cook for my family and friends, and I have great knowledge of food and wine. What`s interesting is now my kids are culinary school grads, and cooking for some really good restaurants.. they tell me they were inspired by me! They are working harder than they ever imagined they would. I think they love it too.. I have great respect for people who choose this career. It is really tough work, and definitely NOT for everybody.-COLLAPSE
I agree with some aspects, and some I find to be a little harsh. I attend culinary school and know damn well my degree doesn't mean a thing. But unfortunately in today's society, people without any type of college script, are considered "dumb". So I pay $30,000 to attend Johnson & Wales. You do have those people who slacked off in labs (and it shows by how horrible they still...+READ
I agree with some aspects, and some I find to be a little harsh. I attend culinary school and know damn well my degree doesn't mean a thing. But unfortunately in today's society, people without any type of college script, are considered "dumb". So I pay $30,000 to attend Johnson & Wales. You do have those people who slacked off in labs (and it shows by how horrible they still cook/skills/experience etc.), so essentialy they wasted 2-4 years and do end up working shitty line cook jobs. Then you have those people who perservered and excelled (which is about 10% of any graduating class, if you're lucky), and end up working in Metropolitan areas and such. And in any kitchen you have those two classes of people; those who worked their way from the bottom up, and then those who pay. I know I still have a lot to learn & experience; people don't like cocky, arrogant douches.-COLLAPSE
As a caterer in the film/tv industry, I usually try to avoid hiring culinary school grads unless they already have production catering experience. It takes too much time to train them to have the sense of urgency necessary in this business. They come to me thinking they know everything already and really, they know almost nothing. They think it's important to spend 1/2 hour dicing a pepper...+READ
As a caterer in the film/tv industry, I usually try to avoid hiring culinary school grads unless they already have production catering experience. It takes too much time to train them to have the sense of urgency necessary in this business. They come to me thinking they know everything already and really, they know almost nothing. They think it's important to spend 1/2 hour dicing a pepper perfectly, when in reality, my clients don't care. They want it to taste good and be served on time. There's considerably more money in catering than in a restaurant, however, this job is not for wimps.-COLLAPSE
I am doing great, and never went to culinary school. You don't need both. If you're willing to put in the hours, do whatever is needed in the kitchen and have a good sense of humor, most chefs will teach you everything they know. It's the 5000 hour rule.
I believe there is a proper balance in culinary school education and real-life experience in a restaurant kitchen. Having just one or the other isn't good enough. To be successful in this industry, one must have BOTH.
My advice: do you research. Look to community colleges with culinary programs. Chances are, they will give real-world experience (cooking for the college campus cafeterias and food...+READ
I believe there is a proper balance in culinary school education and real-life experience in a restaurant kitchen. Having just one or the other isn't good enough. To be successful in this industry, one must have BOTH.
My advice: do you research. Look to community colleges with culinary programs. Chances are, they will give real-world experience (cooking for the college campus cafeterias and food outlets) with really serious basic fundamental skill training at a fraction of the price that most "culinary academies" charge. Most community colleges in California charge about $26 per unit so you not only get an Associate's Degree (which is transferrable to any 4-year university), but additionally you get a solid culinary education based in real-life situations all for less than $3K. When you get out of school, you'll be better prepared to compete for the same paying jobs as those who are carrying $70,000 loans and no real culinary skills.-COLLAPSE
Maybe the OP should just print off the response here and give it to her brother. But how do you really talk someone out of their dream without being a major jerk? You give all the info, tell them you love them and walk away. Plus they have to pay for it!
I would also add that if the person cannot stand being hot, is not terribly organized and stress causes hives, then this is not the job for...+READ
Maybe the OP should just print off the response here and give it to her brother. But how do you really talk someone out of their dream without being a major jerk? You give all the info, tell them you love them and walk away. Plus they have to pay for it!
I would also add that if the person cannot stand being hot, is not terribly organized and stress causes hives, then this is not the job for him. But the flip side is that while you may have 3 hours of hard core, slamfest, balls-to-the-wall stress, you do get to walk away at the end of the evening and the troubles and problems are over. No long term stress.
BTW - you can pee. But you have to prob hold it if you are slammed. Odds are you will be to dehydrated or preoccupied to realize you need to go.-COLLAPSE
12hrs straight ??? BULLSHIT, I was a waiter for 18yrs... You get plenty of breaks.. 12hrs straight NO WAY the lunch rush is 1- 2 hrs most places and PLENTY of break time.. Dinner depends on the market 6 - 10 on a busy night
Well, jeez. I’m glad I’m a pastry chef and baker! :-D That’s what I trained for. Got a culinary degree for the bread and pastry training; then completed a 6 month paid apprenticeship. I have zero desire to work behind a line. I bake, and I love it. It’s just me, the radio, and my nightly production sheet. Sure, I work graveyard (10pm-7am), but I’ve done it for nearly 9 years now, and I still love...+READ
Well, jeez. I’m glad I’m a pastry chef and baker! :-D That’s what I trained for. Got a culinary degree for the bread and pastry training; then completed a 6 month paid apprenticeship. I have zero desire to work behind a line. I bake, and I love it. It’s just me, the radio, and my nightly production sheet. Sure, I work graveyard (10pm-7am), but I’ve done it for nearly 9 years now, and I still love it. I am naturally anti-social, so this career path fits me just fine. I don’t make great money, but I make decent pay, and it could be a lot worse. I am making plans now to open my own bakery-cafe in 5-7 years. I don’t want anything fancy--simple and small suits me fine. I will say that the work is physically tiring and can sometimes be hard to deal with it, but the payoff, for me, is well worth it. I’ve worked in the restaurant industry since I was 16 (almost 17 years now), and have never really wanted to do anything else. Once your infected w/ the restaurant bug, it never really goes away. ;-D
I do not recommend going to any big, fancy culinary school w/ a huge price tag. Most large cities have at least one community college w/ a culinary program--for only a fraction of the price! Paid apprenticeships through the American Culinary Federation are also possible.-COLLAPSE
Agree with Natasha. As a fellow Alum, if there was any culinary school to go to, CIA is it. Nothing else compares. You don't walk out of school being a Chef, but it will get your foot in the door and point you in the right direction.
How do you get a CIA graduate off your front porch??
Pay that jerk for the pizza..
New England Culinary Institute- GO NECI or GO HOME..
Hrm... "White-hot"? That means hot enough to glow with white light; not yellow; not orange. 2400+F is closer to white hot.[1] 2060-2200 cast iron melts.[2] Although not necessarily impossible. Methane flame temp is 1950C (>3500F)[3] --also, at those temperatures, any cast iron seasoning would be utterly disintegrated (although if Lyndon's boss is crazy enough to apply 2nd-3rd degree burns just to...+READ
Hrm... "White-hot"? That means hot enough to glow with white light; not yellow; not orange. 2400+F is closer to white hot.[1] 2060-2200 cast iron melts.[2] Although not necessarily impossible. Methane flame temp is 1950C (>3500F)[3] --also, at those temperatures, any cast iron seasoning would be utterly disintegrated (although if Lyndon's boss is crazy enough to apply 2nd-3rd degree burns just to teach a lesson, destroying seasoning is certainly possible if not probable.) Even low red-hot would destroy the polymerized oil residue on cast iron as well and require immediate re-seasoning. Home stoves are advertised going up to 1300C (2300+F) so, it's not impossible to get up to orange-yellow to yellow hot for sure. You'd need refractory bricks or some enclosure for white hot I'd imagine.-COLLAPSE
I must defend my alma mater in saying that the one exception to your claim is the Culinary Institute of America. Certainly more expensive than the other schools, but certainly taught me the more important tricks of the trade. Some may say otherwise, but they are the some that did not apply themselves in the same way. CIA is the best for those who are truly serious about a future in the restaurant...+READ
I must defend my alma mater in saying that the one exception to your claim is the Culinary Institute of America. Certainly more expensive than the other schools, but certainly taught me the more important tricks of the trade. Some may say otherwise, but they are the some that did not apply themselves in the same way. CIA is the best for those who are truly serious about a future in the restaurant industry. (You cannot graduate from the CIA if your knife skills suck).-COLLAPSE
I took a one year program at community college at the age of 50. No interest in working in restaurants--couldn't keep up the pace and had no illusions about fame and/or fortune. I did have the best year of my life with not one single regret. Now I have a small catering/personal chef business where I can work at my own pace, put love into everything I cook and be a happy person.
As for the next...+READ
I took a one year program at community college at the age of 50. No interest in working in restaurants--couldn't keep up the pace and had no illusions about fame and/or fortune. I did have the best year of my life with not one single regret. Now I have a small catering/personal chef business where I can work at my own pace, put love into everything I cook and be a happy person.
As for the next star of the Food Network, I join in the majority who recommend he do a serious reality check by spending some time in a busy restaurant kitchen. Then decide what he really wants to do.-COLLAPSE
Agree with Azizeh, if you insist on becoming a chef, you might think about going to a good, short culinary program in a community college. I went through the 3-semester Santa Rosa Junior College program in Sonoma County, CA. It gave me a solid foundation in the basics of French techniques and enough knowledge to land my first job in a restaurant. Cooking school only gets you in the door of your...+READ
Agree with Azizeh, if you insist on becoming a chef, you might think about going to a good, short culinary program in a community college. I went through the 3-semester Santa Rosa Junior College program in Sonoma County, CA. It gave me a solid foundation in the basics of French techniques and enough knowledge to land my first job in a restaurant. Cooking school only gets you in the door of your first job. That is when the real learning starts. You could also skip culinary school and spend that time instead volunteering or washing dishes in a real restaurant and consider it an apprenticeship. In your first real job, you are probably gonna start out doing the most basic and boring tasks no matter if you have a degree or not.
I also agree with most of the points in the original article. Professional cooking is physically and emotionally brutal work for little pay. There is no way you can be a pro cook unless you are thick-skinned, physically tough and prefer to work under high stress at 110% capacity for hours and hours at a time everyday. Calling in sick? Unacceptable.
All that being said, there is a glorious exhaustion-high when your culinary team is running like a fine-tuned machine and gets through a busy night turning out some top-notch food. It can be very satisfying, but the adrenalin high can be addictive and its just plain not a healthy lifestyle and it certainly is not conducive to being a good spouse or parent. Cooking professionally is all-consuming. You only do it if you are so passionate about cooking that you can't imagine doing anything else.-COLLAPSE
Any faint thoughts I had of going to culinary school are gone after reading Kitchen Confidential and Medium Raw. As a 35 year old woman prone to anxiety problems, I now firmly believe the kitchen in my home is where my cooking should be done.
I am attending a culinary institute in Utah, and one thing that the chef-instructors pound into us every semester is that the culinary world in general is not glamorous. You work long hours for little pay and even less appreciation - most of the time, you are cooking the same dish time after time, and never get to see the people enjoy it. The reason you do it is for the love of it, to do it well,...+READ
I am attending a culinary institute in Utah, and one thing that the chef-instructors pound into us every semester is that the culinary world in general is not glamorous. You work long hours for little pay and even less appreciation - most of the time, you are cooking the same dish time after time, and never get to see the people enjoy it. The reason you do it is for the love of it, to do it well, and know that you are making people happy.
I'm proud to be part of an institute that does push the basic skills, as well as a realistic perspective on real-world job opportunities.-COLLAPSE
In the Los Angeles area, we have a few culinary arts programs at community colleges. Same AA degree, but for $2,000. If you really want to work your way up, might as well save some tuition money.
im surprised that there is any food servers left ,i couldnt take the crap they can ,and for the money?nah
Having worked in admissions in private culinary schools, I have to say that
it isn't cheap and one thing that we would do was to tell people how
hard it was, expected pay if they asked, and gave them as much
realistic information as possible. Many would sign up after it but I
do know those over my career that did what it took to make the sale.
Also, just to clarify, never once in my life...+READ
Having worked in admissions in private culinary schools, I have to say that
it isn't cheap and one thing that we would do was to tell people how
hard it was, expected pay if they asked, and gave them as much
realistic information as possible. Many would sign up after it but I
do know those over my career that did what it took to make the sale.
Also, just to clarify, never once in my life was I paid a bonus for a
student to apply or start at the culinary schools. It was always a set
salary at least at the schools I worked at.
What I find troubling as that few people point out one can earn an
Associates Degree at local community colleges at a very affordable
rate. Having visited a few, I can say the facilities and educators are
strong and reputable. Community colleges need to be a part of this
discussion.
Lastly, although culinary school CAN be expensive, many schools, even
ones like LCB and Art Institute offer certificates that aren't as
expensive as the degrees. In a kitchen, your pay isn't dependent upon
your education, but your skill and ability. I see certificates as a
viable option.-COLLAPSE
I think this is a great article.
Culinary school is a scam.
I have a food stall in Pittsburgh's strip district. It started out as my recession era job that was to tide me over until I returned to the world of Big Business. But it turned out to be incredibly successful and my food considered, in this environment, to be highly unique. Food writers are writing me up and the business is developing. But I refuse to think of my next...+READ
Culinary school is a scam.
I have a food stall in Pittsburgh's strip district. It started out as my recession era job that was to tide me over until I returned to the world of Big Business. But it turned out to be incredibly successful and my food considered, in this environment, to be highly unique. Food writers are writing me up and the business is developing. But I refuse to think of my next step as a restaurant, but rather as a food manufacturing facility with maybe a small shop front for people to get take away. I also object to people calling me chef. When they ask where I trained, I say the school of "So Just don't eat it then."
Why the cognitive dissonance? I thought about it a long time and realized that it is because I consider many people in the restaurant business to be scum. I started washing dishes in a restaurant at the age of 12 for $1.25 an hour and had bullying short order chefs drench my meal burger with tabasco instead of ketchup, have had little Hitler managers and old bags whose experience has brought a sense of entitlement towards abuse scream at me for no good reason, slimeball restaurant owners who were banging the waitresses and whose checks bounced, fire me for asking where my pay was. And of course massive amounts of these people are seriously stoned or on one substance or another. I refuse to eat in restaurants of celebrity chefs who I think are scumbags or bullies, such as Gordon Ramsey. Hells kitchen will never get a penny out of me. Its remarkable what power freaks can get away with in the restaurant industry--an industry really ripe for regulation.
I mean it's just food, for christsakes.
Your brother should just get out there and make his own food. There is plenty of basic chefs skills I still don't have, but it's not brain surgery, now is it? My success has come from eating lots of different kinds of food and deciding what I thought was good.
He just don't do pizza, Chinese, or some other food that has been highly commoditized, but this is simple business nous.
And good luck.-COLLAPSE
Chow.com your credibility is lost with this article.
I went to CIA as well and yes over the years have worked with many grads from many culinary schools and yes many have stunk as cooks and chefs. Just as many have been terrific.
Just like anything you get out of it what you put into it. I agree doing the trial by fire is good advice to decide whether you want to get into the industry, but school has its own merits. I freely admit learning just as...+READ
I went to CIA as well and yes over the years have worked with many grads from many culinary schools and yes many have stunk as cooks and chefs. Just as many have been terrific.
Just like anything you get out of it what you put into it. I agree doing the trial by fire is good advice to decide whether you want to get into the industry, but school has its own merits. I freely admit learning just as much if not more from working for other terrific chefs, but CIA for one has things one would never be exposed to outside in the "real" world.-COLLAPSE
I object to the title of the article. Saying, "culinary school is not the best way to prepare for work as a restaurant chef," and "culinary school is a scam" are NOT the same thing. Several of these comments have complained that culinary school gives you theory, not real-world experience. That's what its SUPPOSED to do. That's why its CULINARY school instead of restaurant school. Just because it...+READ
I object to the title of the article. Saying, "culinary school is not the best way to prepare for work as a restaurant chef," and "culinary school is a scam" are NOT the same thing. Several of these comments have complained that culinary school gives you theory, not real-world experience. That's what its SUPPOSED to do. That's why its CULINARY school instead of restaurant school. Just because it doesn't teach you to survive as a line cook doesn't mean it isn't valuable and doesn't have its place.-COLLAPSE
The Author is very misinformed and has no idea of what reality is. Not everyone the graduates from any school immediately gets into a career making 100k +. You have to work and gain the experience and skill - a life long en-devour. School is where you gain the knowledge. Going to any school does not entitle anyone to the job they dream of. Not a law students are good lawyers, not all culinary...+READ
The Author is very misinformed and has no idea of what reality is. Not everyone the graduates from any school immediately gets into a career making 100k +. You have to work and gain the experience and skill - a life long en-devour. School is where you gain the knowledge. Going to any school does not entitle anyone to the job they dream of. Not a law students are good lawyers, not all culinary student are Chefs. This author should put a little more thought and research into life and reality before spitting out this nonsense. I might add this site is also an insult to the culinary arts for discrediting all the great institutions with this article.-COLLAPSE
I'm disappointed that the author of this article was so thoroughly swayed by the negativity of a few jaded chefs. I went to the Culinary Institute of America at 33 as a career changer. I received an excellent education and six years after graduating, I'm a senior food editor at a national magazine. My CIA classmates are chefs, sommeliers, managers, and proprietors. There are plenty of...+READ
I'm disappointed that the author of this article was so thoroughly swayed by the negativity of a few jaded chefs. I went to the Culinary Institute of America at 33 as a career changer. I received an excellent education and six years after graduating, I'm a senior food editor at a national magazine. My CIA classmates are chefs, sommeliers, managers, and proprietors. There are plenty of opportunities for success in the culinary world if you're focused, tenacious, willing to work hard, and know your stuff. There are also pitfalls, but that is true of any endeavor.-COLLAPSE
I went to Le Cordon Bleu at 60. I had visions of being "food Network Star Grannie" or Private Chef. I really enjoyed the experience of school, but for the cost, it is simply a luxury. Even here in Orlando, FL, where there are loads of opps for chefs.....after 10 months of the grind at a very pricey cost, I was offered entry level jobs. Restaurants DO NOT have respect for Culinary School...+READ
I went to Le Cordon Bleu at 60. I had visions of being "food Network Star Grannie" or Private Chef. I really enjoyed the experience of school, but for the cost, it is simply a luxury. Even here in Orlando, FL, where there are loads of opps for chefs.....after 10 months of the grind at a very pricey cost, I was offered entry level jobs. Restaurants DO NOT have respect for Culinary School Grads.............Let's stop the insanity. And the recruiting process borders on kidnapping........The recruiter make money off every student..they will do anything to qualify them...It's like the mess that led to the mortgage collapse.......If you want to work in the culinary industry..get an entry level job and save $50,000!!!!!!!!!!!-COLLAPSE
Well written article. I think an apprenticeship or a "staging" job in a restaurant you respect is THE way to go when it comes to learning how to cook. Instead of paying tens of thousands for school you should just work for free. If you're a hard worker you may even get hired at that restaurant.
Actually if you have the drive and determination to do it, it's not a problem even in your 40's. I had people older than that in my CIA class! Who said he has to work as a line cook? There are 1,000 other areas in food and cooking he can go into, it's all about what you really want to do. I agree that the money isn't there except for the top shining stars and I explain to people it's like music;...+READ
Actually if you have the drive and determination to do it, it's not a problem even in your 40's. I had people older than that in my CIA class! Who said he has to work as a line cook? There are 1,000 other areas in food and cooking he can go into, it's all about what you really want to do. I agree that the money isn't there except for the top shining stars and I explain to people it's like music; for every top rock star, there's probably 10,000 musicians toiling in obscurity just trying to make ends meet.-COLLAPSE
Read Daniel Boulud's book entitled, Letters to a Young Chef. It is very honest and may bring him out of his delusional cloud. There are many ways to work with food when you are 40, attempting to become a chef may prove more than challenging. $40,000.00 is a ridiculous price tag for a cooking education.
I'm deeply sorry I ever went to culinary school in my early 40's. It was a $42,000 joke for a 1 year course. I can't say I didn't learn anything but I sure as hell didn't learn $42,000 worth. Read Anthony Bourdain's last book, Medium Raw where he says he will never hire somebody older than 25. Older guys are too set in their ways (roger that) and don't like taking orders from younger chefs (roger...+READ
I'm deeply sorry I ever went to culinary school in my early 40's. It was a $42,000 joke for a 1 year course. I can't say I didn't learn anything but I sure as hell didn't learn $42,000 worth. Read Anthony Bourdain's last book, Medium Raw where he says he will never hire somebody older than 25. Older guys are too set in their ways (roger that) and don't like taking orders from younger chefs (roger that too) I was pretty good at it, I became a sous chef after 4 years of employment, but I have a family now and I hate working nights and weekends and holidays all the time and the pay really, really does suck. Busy restaurants are really stressful too. I can't make a living off it anymore. So I am wanting to go back to school and take a trade where I can make some real money.-COLLAPSE
My wife left the Fashion world after 23 years and decided to go to a well known NYC culinary school. She said it was one of the hardest things she ever did but she loved it in the end and finished at the top of her class. No matter who you are, you generally have to start at the bottom, putting in long days with very boring chores like slicing vegetables all day. One day she shaved thin sheets of...+READ
My wife left the Fashion world after 23 years and decided to go to a well known NYC culinary school. She said it was one of the hardest things she ever did but she loved it in the end and finished at the top of her class. No matter who you are, you generally have to start at the bottom, putting in long days with very boring chores like slicing vegetables all day. One day she shaved thin sheets of chocolate for six hours straight. A number of places wanted her to work for free for the first six hours straight. In the end it helps to be classically trained to move up fast but you have to "pay your dues" (or be able to fund your own business).-COLLAPSE
The author shouldn't be so quick as to generalize all culinary schools as not providing proper training under stress and essential skills. While there are certainly schools that exist solely to make a profit and don't prepare people for real life in the restaurant world, there are schools that do that and then some. If you want to succeed in a food capital like New York City for example, you will...+READ
The author shouldn't be so quick as to generalize all culinary schools as not providing proper training under stress and essential skills. While there are certainly schools that exist solely to make a profit and don't prepare people for real life in the restaurant world, there are schools that do that and then some. If you want to succeed in a food capital like New York City for example, you will be hard-pressed to get access to a top kitchen without a school like FCI or CIA on your resume, as the kitchens are filled with graduates. If you are going to culinary school to become rich and famous, that's the wrong reason wherever you go, but if you want classical training and a skill set that will set you apart from the rest, invest the time and money is a well respected school, you get what you pay for.-COLLAPSE
Don't discourage him, tell him try an Inn or or get a line cook job at a local place and see if he can take the heat, cuts and stress.
It is not the place to meeet hot chicks.
After I attended a culinary program, I spent a number of years working at a Culinary School, and honestly, about 80% of the students will never enter a restaurant kitchen....ever!
That being said, it is an amazing experience, which I will ALWAYS have very fond memories of. And I can cook like a god when I need to, so let him find out for himself. The experience is definitely worth it, even if he...+READ
After I attended a culinary program, I spent a number of years working at a Culinary School, and honestly, about 80% of the students will never enter a restaurant kitchen....ever!
That being said, it is an amazing experience, which I will ALWAYS have very fond memories of. And I can cook like a god when I need to, so let him find out for himself. The experience is definitely worth it, even if he doesn't go on to become a world class chef!-COLLAPSE
Another thing to think about being a cook or chef, You must work mostly in the evenings when others are enjoying themselves while you slave to make them happy.
Cooking = Long hours, hot place to work, low pay and stress.
I do volunteer cooking for large groups, and they tell me I should open a restaurant,
I tell them that I do enjoy cooking but I want to enjoy life also without the stress that...+READ
Another thing to think about being a cook or chef, You must work mostly in the evenings when others are enjoying themselves while you slave to make them happy.
Cooking = Long hours, hot place to work, low pay and stress.
I do volunteer cooking for large groups, and they tell me I should open a restaurant,
I tell them that I do enjoy cooking but I want to enjoy life also without the stress that comes with it,
Sergio-COLLAPSE
Here's an investigative article on a culinary school in SF:
http://www.sfweekly.com/2007-06-06/restaurants/burnt-chefs/
and a followup:
http://www.sfweekly.com/2007-10-10/news/students-file-class-action-lawsuit-against-california-culinary-academy/
I sent off for info from the CCA some time before the article came out and oy vey, the recruitment staff inundated me for weeks via mail,...+READ
Here's an investigative article on a culinary school in SF:
http://www.sfweekly.com/2007-06-06/restaurants/burnt-chefs/
and a followup:
http://www.sfweekly.com/2007-10-10/news/students-file-class-action-lawsuit-against-california-culinary-academy/
I sent off for info from the CCA some time before the article came out and oy vey, the recruitment staff inundated me for weeks via mail, phone, and email to enroll. So glad I never replied.-COLLAPSE
Skip the culinary school. Find work in good restaurants with a good reputation and grind away at if for 3 plus years to hone your skill. This business is not for the weak. Many cases your working in small hot cramped spaces for 10 plus hours a day. Also, it is a battle ground to move up the pecking order. Older people trying to get into the field are at a great disadvantage over younger...+READ
Skip the culinary school. Find work in good restaurants with a good reputation and grind away at if for 3 plus years to hone your skill. This business is not for the weak. Many cases your working in small hot cramped spaces for 10 plus hours a day. Also, it is a battle ground to move up the pecking order. Older people trying to get into the field are at a great disadvantage over younger prospects. They just can't do many of the daily kitchen task as long or fast. Knife skills are a must and older folks in most cases wont pick up those talents fast. Entering the kitchen from the ground up will probably entail all the dirty work in the kitchen from unending prep work, hoisting 50 lb plus pots of stock, breaking down and cleaning the kitchen regularly, and many jobs outside the parameter of kitchen work. Like bathroom duty. Plan to burn, cut, scar yourself many times just in the first couple weeks getting attuned to the daily operation. If you then get lucky enough to eventually get to the line which you will spend many years fine tuning your skills to eventually move to an executive/sous position if you make the cut. If your in competition for a position don't be surprised if someone is vindictive enough crank your burners or turn them off to continually undermine you. So much more to say on this but could be here forever. You are dealing with many hostile personalities from all sides of the kitchen from the bus boys who can make your life hell on earth all the way up to the head of the kitchen who could needle you every night to make you seriously throw knives. Many of the people you will share your time in the kitchen with graduated from the finest penal institutions before taking a job in a kitchen. Forget your holidays like Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years and expect your off time to be on a Monday or Tuesday. If your married be ready to never see your loved one until at least late at night if you have dinner service. Learn to speak Spanish if you want to communicate with half your kitchen. Don't expect great pay, bonuses, long vacations, etc. etc. etc. Rock star chefs are very few and very far between. Lastly, the waitstaff will most likely take home far more pay than you do for many years. Going in you better have the hide of an elephant and the flexibility to deal with all continuously adapt to what is going to be asked of you.
If your brother loves cooking maybe he should just fine tune that art and share it with the people he loves. He might find it far more rewarding than entering the world of fine dining restaurants that are glamorized from tv.-COLLAPSE
All I know is the guy who pulled the hot pan trick on poor Lydon would have had that thing laid upside his head if it was me. That's just evil! I teach people to ride, but I wouldn't send them out with a loose saddle so they can wipe out and get hurt, to learn to always tighten the saddle cinch.
I went to culinary school and currently getting my degree in food science. A culinary degree is mostly good for 2 things and 2 things alone doing product development(big companies want someone formally trained) and pastry. Industrial baking is nothing like home baking. Honestly its best for her brother to get certificate to learn a little and get a degree in restaurant management. It is the...+READ
I went to culinary school and currently getting my degree in food science. A culinary degree is mostly good for 2 things and 2 things alone doing product development(big companies want someone formally trained) and pastry. Industrial baking is nothing like home baking. Honestly its best for her brother to get certificate to learn a little and get a degree in restaurant management. It is the business side of the industry that is a killer!-COLLAPSE
I took a cooking class given by an esteemed chef in a retaurant kitchen. It was somewhat of a simulation, cooking under time pressure in a crowded envirnment with hot stuff, elbows, sharp objects and the chef yelling at everybody. It was fun, but I wouldn't last an hour if that were my day job.
It's great to hear about your brothers enthusiasm for the culinary arts! I have been in the industry about 5 years now and have worked every station and position, still feeling I wanted more, I enrolled into a culinary management program. To say the least it is not what I had previously expected it to be. Culinary schools give you theory, usually not even working theory. Hands on learning, has...+READ
It's great to hear about your brothers enthusiasm for the culinary arts! I have been in the industry about 5 years now and have worked every station and position, still feeling I wanted more, I enrolled into a culinary management program. To say the least it is not what I had previously expected it to be. Culinary schools give you theory, usually not even working theory. Hands on learning, has been almost non-existent for most of the students, I am fortunate enough to have it all behind me already. A big thing to consider is that a certificate or diploma from a culinary program will NOT make one a Chef or even get them their Red Seal. I gained most of my experience and achieved the most success whilst apprenticing, the down side, I made less than 12, 500 in total last year. Whatever route is taken, money is going to be scarce for a while. My advice would be to personally read Larousse Gastronomique, Professional Cooking by Gisslen and get a copy of the A-Z food lovers companion(soft cover, for portable quick reference). If he can help himself to learn the basics, such as traditional sauces, thickening agents and methods, cooking techniques etc. and has the applied knife skills to perform all the days tasks in a timely manner, it would be a great idea for him to keep to the field he is in currently for the simple fact that it's making him money, but he should also go to the restaurant he wants to emulate most with his own work and ask them about an opportunity to come and learn as a stagiaire (pronounced St-aw-j) which is an unpaid position but as such he would not likely be starting out in a dish pit, but make sure he is humble enough to help in the dish pit too. If your brother has any questions related to the industry and education preparing for it, tell him to give me a shout, my email is michael_england@live.ca-COLLAPSE
I think the best advice for people to want to career change into working in a kitchen is to tell them that working in a professional kitchen is absolutely not one tiny bit like cooking at home. The joy you get from spending all day making your special top secret barbecue sauce? Working in a professional kitchen is nothing like that.
I went to culinary school and worked in kitchens full time for...+READ
I think the best advice for people to want to career change into working in a kitchen is to tell them that working in a professional kitchen is absolutely not one tiny bit like cooking at home. The joy you get from spending all day making your special top secret barbecue sauce? Working in a professional kitchen is nothing like that.
I went to culinary school and worked in kitchens full time for 10 years, plus on call catering for many more. I loved it, but the pay is crap and it's really physically hard. I think anyone getting into needs to get any ideas about fame and fortune out of their head.-COLLAPSE
Yeah Kitchen Confidential was GREAT at putting me off wanting to run my own restaurant/being a chef. I like to cook, I like to cook for friends. That's enough.
I would actaully suggest medium raw's chapter "so you want to be a chef" i believe. Bourdain rocks
huh. Helena, i can't find anything wrong w your advice here. you are absolutely spot on.
if the letter writer is a real person, and the person considering a late career change is really her/his brother, i would recommend this person doesn't try to tell the person "tactfully"-- it's your brother, just tell him! the phrasing i'd use would go something like: "hey dummy, i know you're having a...+READ
huh. Helena, i can't find anything wrong w your advice here. you are absolutely spot on.
if the letter writer is a real person, and the person considering a late career change is really her/his brother, i would recommend this person doesn't try to tell the person "tactfully"-- it's your brother, just tell him! the phrasing i'd use would go something like: "hey dummy, i know you're having a midlife crisis, but blow your 75 large on hookers or a sports car like a sane person--you'll at least feel good for a while. the cooking job isn't what you think it is. you have no experience-- no really, nobody cares about what you cook at home, it doesn't count, the skills you believe you possess from home cooking don't count for squat in a pro kitchen-- you have no experience & no skills. culinary school is generally a waste of money and can actually negatively affect your culinary resume. at 42, you are geriatric and you won't be able to hack this-- you won't be able to read the teeny print on the tickets, let alone work the long hours or keep up with line cooks half your age, and when you throw your back out or develop stress fractures, you won't have health insurance. don't cash in your 401k to go to culinary school, you'd have better odds at cashing it in and putting it down, one shot, at a roulette table-- at least when the money is gone in a poof, you won't be trying to pay back loans w interest at $9/hr. don't do something stupid you'll regret later."
even contemplating the idea that this guy is some miracle man in the 99th percentile of folks who may actually be able to make the switch with some success--maybe he's getting out of the marines and he's a ridiculously fit, quick learning 42 yr old, used to stress, fast pace & following orders, with a nice, high pain tolerance for all i know--the advice to try an unpaid stage/follow is a good one. that's assuming anyone will take this guy on (even unpaid help with zero experience can be a huge liability in a pro kitchen, more bodies =/= better performance)-- but then again maybe he'll get the message if he has trouble finding a place that will let him work for free. btw culinary students generally must complete a mandatory stage or "externship" as part of their final course requirements, where they work for a period of weeks/months at local restaurants for free. not all of them can hack the real working environment. some are great, and for the really good students, there is a chance to get hired at the end of the externship. the others at least get something solid on their resume.
one more thing: if the bro is charitably inclined, he also may consider volunteering locally at a large scale charity/soup kitchen. often these have pro equipment and are run by ex pro cooks or cooks on their days off, and the bro could get some pointers and some reality checks in equal measure before risking his own & family's future, maybe even a referral for a stint in a real kitchen once he gets some skills. consider the working for free thing just part of the preliminary exploratory process, like any internship. at any rate i'd put money down that a few days or weeks in the trenches will dampen his ardor for an exciting new career change. of course, if it doesn't, maybe he's nuts enough to make a go of making it work ;-P-COLLAPSE
Or recommend he read Kitchen Confidential. Cliche, yes, but any fantasies I harbored about becoming a chef were swiftly eradicated by that book. Sure there are upsides to working as a chef, but just tell your brother to read the chapter where Tony describes his cuts, calluses, injuries and scars. I have a lot more respect for those in the industry after that!