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The San Francisco Chronicle hails one of the saddest and/or wisest developments of the ongoing recession: the habit of diners rolling into an upscale restaurant and ordering appetizers instead of entrées. Frugal customers who order light are, says the paper, being dubbed “non’trées” by unimpressed staffers.
The trend, along with high ingredient costs and competition with rivals offering bargains for value-starved diners, is helping put Bay Area restaurants in jeopardy. That said, the paper’s Greek chorus of a comments section has another take on the trend: Struggling upscale restaurants should examine their own fronts of the house before blaming cheap customers for their decline and fall:
“Service, for the most part is terrible; has been for a long time, which in good times, shouldn’t be tolerated, and now in bad times is simply unacceptable. When you order a $40 ‘entree,’ and a $60 bottle of wine, and get treated like crap, sort of ‘you’re doing us a favor by being allowed in OUR restaurant,’ then you reap what you sow.”
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"The article says it all....."Service, for the most part is terrible; has been for a long time, which in good times, shouldn’t be tolerated, and now in bad times is simply unacceptable. When you order a $40 ‘entree,’ and a $60 bottle of wine, and get treated like crap, sort of ‘you’re doing us a favor by being allowed in OUR restaurant,’ then you reap what you sow.”
Most of the better fine dining establishments I've been to have fixed-price menus (or you can request that they create one for you in advance), with additional wine pairings if desired. Even before the recent economic crash, they were willing to split the wine pairings (when eating 8-12 courses, you really don't need even the glass taste served--let alone a half-bottle or full glass per course,...+READ
Most of the better fine dining establishments I've been to have fixed-price menus (or you can request that they create one for you in advance), with additional wine pairings if desired. Even before the recent economic crash, they were willing to split the wine pairings (when eating 8-12 courses, you really don't need even the glass taste served--let alone a half-bottle or full glass per course, unless you really want to get bombed). If you will be there for the full 3-4 hours of dining, and have the appetite for it, it does make sense to go all out if you can afford it (when choosing from the a la carte menu, including wine, this may range from $150-$2000+ per person). At these establishments I don't recall ever seeing someone order a single appetizer and single glass of wine, but if they did, the staff is trained--and paid--well enough not to bitch. These places often don't even turn the table once per evening--if you're there, the table is yours until you leave. There aren't many places of this caliber where I'd feel odd ordering only appetizers, although there are plenty of restaurants which wrongly believe themselves to be of the same ilk.
Have I been guilty of ordering only appetizers? Or bottles from the $25-40 range? Absolutely. It depended on my appetite, whether I had time to relax, the friends I was with, and, of course, budget. Wine by the glass is actually pricier than the average bottle price (excluding the most expensive dozen or so bottles). 2 appetizers are also about the same cost as a single entree. Being similar to many of the previous reviewers, I generally can't even finish a single entree. I'm well aware that the entree with it's sides are expertly chosen to best reflect what's in season while following the whim of the chef, but many of them over the years simply haven't appealed to me, while the appetizers have. There's a reason that small plate/tapas restaurants have done well; you spend as much as at a conventional restaurant, but no one scoffs at ordering multiple plates to share. There's little worse than having your server scoff at you and your selections; maybe they should remember that it's the customer who's paying their wages?
I'm sure these same waiters scorn most single diners too, as it's more likely that they'll order less than their fellow couples and and large groups, who might have something to prove by what they order. Oddly, these single diners often leave faster too, thereby turning the the table faster, but this is often ignored because the total check amount is smaller (there might be the occasional critic or super foodie who will try everything on the menu, but most of us simply like food and order what we find interesting).-COLLAPSE
I have to wonder what the Chefs at Per Se and French Laundry (both places in which I HAVE dined, btw) would make of wait-staff telling patrons to go somewhere else to dine if they are not prepared to drop a certain amount of money. It just seems like such a mercenary approach. If that's really what you're about, then do a fixed-price menu. Make sure that patrons know right-up-front that if they...+READ
I have to wonder what the Chefs at Per Se and French Laundry (both places in which I HAVE dined, btw) would make of wait-staff telling patrons to go somewhere else to dine if they are not prepared to drop a certain amount of money. It just seems like such a mercenary approach. If that's really what you're about, then do a fixed-price menu. Make sure that patrons know right-up-front that if they wish to dine in a certain establishment, they will have to pay a certain amount. Or, maybe, have NO prices on the appetizers, allow the patrons to choose one ot two with their entrees and add the price of the appetizer(s) TO the entree. . Again, making it impossible for people without the necessary cash to get away with coming into a place they really don't belong in. One look at the menu and they are gone. Easy....
Of course, today's appetizer buyers could be tomorrow's full-on patrons, but I seriously doubt the kind of places being discussed here really are concerned about future business. Right?-COLLAPSE
I have low blood sugar and a busy life. I have only once literally fainted, fallen down, and gotten stitches in my forehead because i was so hungry, but I do get light-headed when I go too long between meals/snacks. Note I did not say it is my CHOICE to go through the whole basket of bread before the first hint of anything I ordered arrives, but depending on the service, I choose to eat what is...+READ
I have low blood sugar and a busy life. I have only once literally fainted, fallen down, and gotten stitches in my forehead because i was so hungry, but I do get light-headed when I go too long between meals/snacks. Note I did not say it is my CHOICE to go through the whole basket of bread before the first hint of anything I ordered arrives, but depending on the service, I choose to eat what is available rather than either cause a scene (passing out would probably do that) or sit there with a headache and that awful taste that having very low blood sugar brings to my mouth. If I am too hungry when the food arrives, I cannot enjoy it and cannot eat very much any way. If I am eating in a very busy place, I will order something that does not take too long to prepare, and often ask the server for advice on that. If they get it wrong and the food takes forever, my insurance company would probably prefer having free nibbles to another trip to the ER.
Having never looked at the menus of the restaurants you mention, I have no idea if I could afford them if I were to find myself close to one of them. This is a food board, not a conspicuous consumption board. I really do not care about restaurants that I am not likely to go to.-COLLAPSE
"hmm, when I am really hungry and waiting and waiting and waiting, I tend to nibble more than I mean to, even to the point of spoiling my appetite."
You're really reaching there. And really, you eat before going out so you don't "pass out"? Give me a break.
You totally avoided my question about The French Laundry and Per Se. And, like it or not, this is a food board; people know these...+READ
"hmm, when I am really hungry and waiting and waiting and waiting, I tend to nibble more than I mean to, even to the point of spoiling my appetite."
You're really reaching there. And really, you eat before going out so you don't "pass out"? Give me a break.
You totally avoided my question about The French Laundry and Per Se. And, like it or not, this is a food board; people know these restaurants. They're not my "favorite spots", as I've been to neither. Know why? I can't afford to.-COLLAPSE
hmm, when I am really hungry and waiting and waiting and waiting, I tend to nibble more than I mean to, even to the point of spoiling my appetite. Of course, sometimes I have a bite shortly before going out so that I am not close to passing out before my food comes, but you don't approve of that either.
TFL sounds like a tv station. I don't have a tv, and not because I can't afford one. For...+READ
hmm, when I am really hungry and waiting and waiting and waiting, I tend to nibble more than I mean to, even to the point of spoiling my appetite. Of course, sometimes I have a bite shortly before going out so that I am not close to passing out before my food comes, but you don't approve of that either.
TFL sounds like a tv station. I don't have a tv, and not because I can't afford one. For another place I would not choose to go--even if I lived on the coast where people are so full of themselves and assume the whole world is on a first-name basis with their favorite spots--check out the second grannie may video at http://pbskids.org/wordgirl/ I think you have a guest role in it, behind the counter.
I do not think the difference here is between rich and the rest, but between those who think that ought to be an important factor and those who don't.-COLLAPSE
saacnmama,
When a customer eats four loaves of free bread and then just orders an appetizer, it's pretty easy to tell they're just there to fill up on the cheap.
Also, not every restaurant and every diner are a good match. We don't see much of this behavior where I work, but I hear it's common at other places, and, frankly, I enjoy playing devil's advocate.
So, let me get this straight....+READ
saacnmama,
When a customer eats four loaves of free bread and then just orders an appetizer, it's pretty easy to tell they're just there to fill up on the cheap.
Also, not every restaurant and every diner are a good match. We don't see much of this behavior where I work, but I hear it's common at other places, and, frankly, I enjoy playing devil's advocate.
So, let me get this straight. Knowing nothing about your financial status, I'll assume you can't afford TFL or Per Se. Would you go there anyhow? And if so, you'd feel comfortable just ordering an appetizer? I find that hard to believe.-COLLAPSE
the diners, whatever they decide on, are giving your establishment business.
no, not if I detect an attitude like invinovertas' (or if I find out the name of his establishment)
Invinotheresverde:
First of all, I meant "than" as opposed to "then"--excuse my bad grammar. That said, this has been festering. Here's an example: Although I cannot afford to go out an purchase a complete Tory Burch ensemble, I CAN afford a pair of Tory Burch Reva Ballet Flats and happily wear them--as is the case of many women. The comments are always "Nice shoes"--not "Why aren't you dressed...+READ
Invinotheresverde:
First of all, I meant "than" as opposed to "then"--excuse my bad grammar. That said, this has been festering. Here's an example: Although I cannot afford to go out an purchase a complete Tory Burch ensemble, I CAN afford a pair of Tory Burch Reva Ballet Flats and happily wear them--as is the case of many women. The comments are always "Nice shoes"--not "Why aren't you dressed in head to toe Tory". That said, there are many reasons that a patron may decide to go with the appetizers--among the reasons:
1. Health Reasons--a full meal may not be the thing the diner can handle.
2. Portion Control--a diner may be on a restricted portion control diet.
3. Portion Control Number Two--perhaps the diner just doesn't want the huge amount of food placed on his/her plate that the entree consists of and does not want to bring it home.
4. Trying out the establishment--maybe they want to give the place a try and don't want to spend the alloted amount on a full dinner.
5. Cutting costs--yes--the economy is bad--perhaps the patron has many bills and can only afford the elegance of just appetizers.
6. The Appetizer Menu Items are more enticing than the entrees.
Whatever the reason--every diner has his/her own story and should be respected for that. Treat others the way you want to be treated. I'll tell you...SydneytoWaco mentioned something about not lingering too long. Ever been to France? You can sit for hours over a glass of wine and a coffee and you won't get kicked out or get a sour look from the server. In general, people are pretty good with timeliness--most people don't linger on for hours. You just gotta go with the flow. Be nice--the diners, whatever they decide on, are giving your establishment business.-COLLAPSE
invino, how did you reach the conclusion that people only order appetizers for cost reasons? How did the wait staff folk interviewed for the Chronicle article determine that that is the reason? I'm a vegetarian, might order 'just' a couple of sides in a place that featured meat in all their main courses. And yes, I do enter such establishements, for many reasons.
My guess is that the wait staff...+READ
invino, how did you reach the conclusion that people only order appetizers for cost reasons? How did the wait staff folk interviewed for the Chronicle article determine that that is the reason? I'm a vegetarian, might order 'just' a couple of sides in a place that featured meat in all their main courses. And yes, I do enter such establishements, for many reasons.
My guess is that the wait staff gets a smaller tip, so they are quick to make financial associations, even if the patron had an entirely different motive in mind. (If my bill is small but I've had a good experience, I generally tip according to the intangibles)
And what's up with saying that people who can't afford the boeuf bourguignon don't have any business taking in the atmosphere? I would much rather be seated near a table of folks enjoying appetizers and drinks and 'acting like' they are in a nice place than a loud lout in sweatpants who has a fat wallet, no matter how much more money the latter spends.-COLLAPSE
Personally I dine out for an indulgence, to be a little extravagant and probably eat more than I may do otherwise. But I grew up eating good home cooked meals so I don't eat out as much. So I wouldn't go out to just eat an appetizer but if someone else did then that's their choice.
But if you are going to dine out on just an appetizer I would hope you do not linger at your table overly long in a...+READ
Personally I dine out for an indulgence, to be a little extravagant and probably eat more than I may do otherwise. But I grew up eating good home cooked meals so I don't eat out as much. So I wouldn't go out to just eat an appetizer but if someone else did then that's their choice.
But if you are going to dine out on just an appetizer I would hope you do not linger at your table overly long in a busy restaurant as clearly you are hurting the proprietor.-COLLAPSE
jarona, maybe I'm jaded, but people just don't do what these posters are talking about where I work. it's literally befuddling to me. Simply, if a diner can't afford to eat dinner at a restaurant, why would the diner go there? It makes no sense.
loshmar, you're talking about something totally different than what the article (and myself) mentioned.
I hope your wife continues to be well.
If someone choses to go to a restaurant, no matter WHAT dining establishment it is, they, as paying patrons, have the right to order anything they damn well please. I would rather have someone, who cannot afford an entire meal at a fine-dining establishment, order apps then go to a lamechain like Applebees. As a former server, every single patron who walks through that restaurant door should be...+READ
If someone choses to go to a restaurant, no matter WHAT dining establishment it is, they, as paying patrons, have the right to order anything they damn well please. I would rather have someone, who cannot afford an entire meal at a fine-dining establishment, order apps then go to a lamechain like Applebees. As a former server, every single patron who walks through that restaurant door should be treated like a king or queen. They are paying for that service. If you feel that bitter about some diners, you should not be on a waitstaff. Go retail instead.-COLLAPSE
My Wife is a 2 time cancer survivor and because of which she lost 60% of her stomach to Chemo. She can only eat an app. portion at one time. Both her and I Love to Dine out but she feels that with the hunger in the world today for her to order an entree that she knows she can't eat(she doesn't do doggy bags) is very wasteful. Sometimes people order things because thats what they can eat.
...but how many restaurants are going to continue to have too many diners in this economy? Invinowhatever's point of view seems limited to an elite group of highly successful restaurants that continue to be packed throughout the week even as the economy turns sharply downward. Among the larger population of restaurants looking to fill tables, a more realistic attitude is that it's better to have...+READ
...but how many restaurants are going to continue to have too many diners in this economy? Invinowhatever's point of view seems limited to an elite group of highly successful restaurants that continue to be packed throughout the week even as the economy turns sharply downward. Among the larger population of restaurants looking to fill tables, a more realistic attitude is that it's better to have some money than no money.
Also, I just read the original article, and it mentions this apps-only gripe only in passing. It seems that this blog post has taken a minor details from the original article and made it larger than life.-COLLAPSE
Don't go pickin' on invinotheresverde :) He was just helping me with wine advice on another board! It seems like the vast majority of posters do it for portion control, variety, etc. We are really feeling the pinch lately as we're retired and trying to leave our retirment $$$ alone to hopefully recover. But I would be embarassed to order an app and a glass of water to save money. I appreciate...+READ
Don't go pickin' on invinotheresverde :) He was just helping me with wine advice on another board! It seems like the vast majority of posters do it for portion control, variety, etc. We are really feeling the pinch lately as we're retired and trying to leave our retirment $$$ alone to hopefully recover. But I would be embarassed to order an app and a glass of water to save money. I appreciate that a restaurant who had too many diners like that on a night to night basis either wouldn't be in business for long or would change their menu and delete the apps. We do, however, frequently split an app and an entree in order to try more things. 'Course we almost always order a bottle of wine with that meal rather than glasses. And the server gets a larger percentage than if we had ordered two entrees. I had never particularly thought about this but will keep it in mind going forward. See ya on the Dark Side :)-COLLAPSE
I would never say anything to any diner about what they order. I, and the fifty or so people I work with, just wouldn't dream of ordering only an appetizer as a way to save money.
You don't have to agree with me, but in my opinion, if you can't afford to eat out, don't.
Sidenote: I once saw an article in a local paper about this topic. The paper suggested only ordering an appetizer as a way...+READ
I would never say anything to any diner about what they order. I, and the fifty or so people I work with, just wouldn't dream of ordering only an appetizer as a way to save money.
You don't have to agree with me, but in my opinion, if you can't afford to eat out, don't.
Sidenote: I once saw an article in a local paper about this topic. The paper suggested only ordering an appetizer as a way to save money. They also suggested tipping your waiter with a tin of homemade cookies.-COLLAPSE
Invino - I'm curious about your proposed method of validation for diners, given your qualifications about what justifies ordering appetizers and what is a violation of your ethics.
"I'd like these two appetizers as my meal, please."
"Are you not hungry? Do you have a small appetite? Do you want to experience smaller portions of more intense flavors? Do you want things that are easier to...+READ
Invino - I'm curious about your proposed method of validation for diners, given your qualifications about what justifies ordering appetizers and what is a violation of your ethics.
"I'd like these two appetizers as my meal, please."
"Are you not hungry? Do you have a small appetite? Do you want to experience smaller portions of more intense flavors? Do you want things that are easier to share? Very well... These are valid reasons for your order and I shall bring it."
"No, I'm on a budget."
"Get out of my restaurant this minute!"
I would love to be a fly on the wall as you serve that table and pass judgment on the merit of their reasons for dining with you and for their choice of foods from the proferred menu.-COLLAPSE
I'm sure a restaurant would like me to order a 300 dollar bottle of wine, but I don't. Not that I wouldn't like a nice expensive wine, but purely for economic reasons.
Sometimes I order a club soda and skip the wine entirely. Gasp! I'm really pulling a fast one there!
If a restaurant wants me to spend a certain amount, then they should put mandatory minimums on the menu. Or, they can do...+READ
I'm sure a restaurant would like me to order a 300 dollar bottle of wine, but I don't. Not that I wouldn't like a nice expensive wine, but purely for economic reasons.
Sometimes I order a club soda and skip the wine entirely. Gasp! I'm really pulling a fast one there!
If a restaurant wants me to spend a certain amount, then they should put mandatory minimums on the menu. Or, they can do what many fine restaurants do-- set a prix fixe price for a multi course meal, and that's all they serve. If the restaurant doesn't, then I'm going to order whichever menu items I want. If a particular server has a problem with that, they can feel free to have someone else take my order (and my tip).-COLLAPSE
Count me (and my wife) among those who sometimes order only apps because of portion size. We hate to waste food and so many places just serve a ridiculous amount.
We won't necessarily drop a restaurant that serves good food from our rotation because of portion size, but once we get to know a place we learn whether it's one where we can manage to eat just two or three appetizers between us, or...+READ
Count me (and my wife) among those who sometimes order only apps because of portion size. We hate to waste food and so many places just serve a ridiculous amount.
We won't necessarily drop a restaurant that serves good food from our rotation because of portion size, but once we get to know a place we learn whether it's one where we can manage to eat just two or three appetizers between us, or one apiece and share one entree, or (best of all!) one where the portions are so reasonable that we can actually order and enjoy an appetizer, entree, and dessert for each of us. The latter seem much more common in Europe than here, alas.-COLLAPSE
What I say isn't going to change the appetizer-ordering people. They'll continue to do as they wish, and happily "pull a fast one" over on restuarants who anticipate their diners to dine, not to snack.
I've seen customers at my restaurant come in, say they ate before they left the house and are here only for a little something and to socialize. Guess what? That's what a bar or coffee shop is...+READ
What I say isn't going to change the appetizer-ordering people. They'll continue to do as they wish, and happily "pull a fast one" over on restuarants who anticipate their diners to dine, not to snack.
I've seen customers at my restaurant come in, say they ate before they left the house and are here only for a little something and to socialize. Guess what? That's what a bar or coffee shop is for.
I'm not telling anyone how they should spend their money. As I said, those individuals will do whatever they want to do. Personally, I'd be mortified.-COLLAPSE
It isn't either of our opinions that matter. It is up to the appetizer ordering folks to decide for themselves. I don't understand where you get off telling people how they should spend their money.
tcavanau,
"People who can't afford to spend as much should go to cheaper establishments?"
Um, yes- exactly. Not everyone can afford a Mercedes. Does that mean everyone should have one anyways?
The restaurant where I work books up every night and we turn people away constantly. Why should we give our prime tables to those who can't afford to be there? Nice restaurants are for people who...+READ
tcavanau,
"People who can't afford to spend as much should go to cheaper establishments?"
Um, yes- exactly. Not everyone can afford a Mercedes. Does that mean everyone should have one anyways?
The restaurant where I work books up every night and we turn people away constantly. Why should we give our prime tables to those who can't afford to be there? Nice restaurants are for people who can afford them.
I can't afford to eat at Per Se. Guess what? Instead of getting all indignant and saying I have just as much right to dine there as anyone (even though it's way out of my budget), I simply don't go there. Sure, I guess I COULD take up a table and just eat an appetizer, but why bother? If I'm dining somewhere nice, I want the full experience. I can't afford the full experience at Per Se. Therefore, I dine where I can get the best value for my money.
"I'm surprised you want people to read your condescension of a post."
I definitely want people to read my post- the people who go out and try to scrimp by only ordering an appetizer. No one's forcing these people to dine out. If you can't afford it, stay home. There's no shame in that.
"...should it really be your opinion that matters here?"
My opinion matters just as much as yours. I don't particularly care if you disagree.-COLLAPSE
I'm surprised you want people to read your condescension of a post. People who can't afford to spend as much should go to cheaper establishments? Why do you care, if they're enjoying themselves by ordering apps? If someone can afford to go out to dinner 3x a month by ordering apps, but only 2x if ordering a full meal, should it really be your opinion that matters here?
Rosemaryhoney- again, re-read my post. You have a small appetite. That's a good reason to only order appetizers. I'm not talking about that.
I'd much rather order a beautiful salad and an appetizer of grilled squid and still be able to do up my pants the next day, than go for an entree that is big enough to serve 2 or 3 people. My eyes are often bigger than my stomach and I will eat too much (calorically) before even considering stopping and possibly taking the rest of my meal home. If restaurants were to serve healthy, balanced and...+READ
I'd much rather order a beautiful salad and an appetizer of grilled squid and still be able to do up my pants the next day, than go for an entree that is big enough to serve 2 or 3 people. My eyes are often bigger than my stomach and I will eat too much (calorically) before even considering stopping and possibly taking the rest of my meal home. If restaurants were to serve healthy, balanced and reasonably sized entrees, I'd happily order them, but until such time, I'll pay more per gram by ordering two or even three appetizers that will satisfy but not stuff me silly. When restaurants figure out that people are looking for quality, not quantity, perhaps they'll come up with more appealing mains that woo the smaller plates nibblers. I really don't believe the issue is cheapness whatsoever. I'd gladly spend more $$$ on a light vegetable puree soup, green salad and 6 raw oysters, than I would for a standard entree. Until restaurants sort out what a proper serving size is, I'll continue creating my own ideal meal size via the appetizers list.-COLLAPSE
I disagree with Invinotheresverde. I often order only a salad and appetizer, because entrees are typically too large or because the salads and apps sound more interesting. [And no, I can't just take the leftovers home, as I'm usually traveling when eating at top notch restaurants]. As a very light eater, I'd rather not pay $40-$50 for an entree I can't finish when I can pay $20-$30 for a salad...+READ
I disagree with Invinotheresverde. I often order only a salad and appetizer, because entrees are typically too large or because the salads and apps sound more interesting. [And no, I can't just take the leftovers home, as I'm usually traveling when eating at top notch restaurants]. As a very light eater, I'd rather not pay $40-$50 for an entree I can't finish when I can pay $20-$30 for a salad and app that completely appeal to me and fill me up.
But regardless of a diner's reasoning, waitstaff at upscale spots should try their best to avoid biting the hand that feeds them. A table ordering only drinks and apps is better than no table at all, which is where a lot of restaurants seem to be heading.-COLLAPSE
Are you kidding me? Someone comes into a restaurant, orders something from the menu and there is complaining about it? If a restaurant owner doesn't like what is being ordered, change the menu. Don't complain about your patrons ordering what appeals to them from the menu.
Silverbear, please re-read my post. I said for the SOLE purpose of saving money. The reasons you list are 100% valid- they just weren't what I was talking about.
Partially, I think this is the result of the american theory that "bigger is better". Why should restaurant goes pay for extravagantly portioned meals that they just will not be able to finish? Perhaps restraints could adjust their portions, enabling them to lower their prices.
^
That's right . Better for restaurants to have no money than some money.
Some diners, including me, prefer to order apps for the following reasons:
-- smaller portions with less calorie payload
-- more intense flavors
-- better showcase of the chef's talent
-- easier to share
I'm all for saving a buck, but if diners are getting appetizers for the SOLE purpose of trying to save money, maybe they should dine out less often, or at a lower priced establishment.