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Dear Helena,
Our son is nearly one and we sometimes take him out to dinner, either sitting on my lap or in a highchair if they have one. He's a good eater and he eats whatever we eat, even spicy stuff like bulgogi. But he leaves a lot of his meal on the floor. We go to this Thai place in our neighborhood and he leaves rice everywhere. I can't really clear it up since I don't carry a dustpan and brush around with me. Is it rude of us to leave it for the restaurant to clean up? How much should we tip to compensate them? I feel like as long as he doesn't misbehave in other ways (scream, throw stuff), it shouldn't be a big deal for them to sweep the floor. Shouldn't they just be happy to have customers?
–Squishy Rice Underfoot
Dear Squishy Rice Underfoot,
Yes, some restaurants are happy for you to bring your baby. But at others, it's like taking your granny to a rave: There are no signs forbidding it, but you're violating an unwritten rule. The problem isn't the mess, which restaurants don't mind as much as you might think. "Some babies are better behaved than the average adult," says Nicole Franzen, a server at August in New York. The problem is more that babies tend to destroy the ambiance. She says, "Brunch or lunch is a bit easier, but at dinner people are having dates, so it's less appropriate." In other words, when a couple is having an intimate tryst, they don't want to watch your offspring flinging spaghetti at the wall.
So how do you know which restaurants are baby-friendly? Call ahead and ask, says Jenn Rock Enders. She spent several months of her son's first year on the road with her husband's band and was forced to eat out much of the time (she chronicled her adventures on her blog, TourTot). If the restaurant has highchairs, obviously it's more likely to welcome your cherub. Heather Flett, coauthor of The Rookie Mom's Handbook, says, "The best places are ones with an appropriate level of noise so your child is not the loudest."
Also, know that you're not powerless over the mess; you can take measures to control it. For example, you don't have to give your tot saucy foods that will inevitably turn into a finger-painting project. And rice is bound to spill everywhere. "Hand them one bit of toast at a time," suggests Flett. If your nine-month-old is picky, it's OK to bring a jar of baby food or his favorite yogurt from home. Restaurants don't mind, says Franzen, since if your child is very young, it's not as if he's going to order his own dish anyway.
As for cleaning up, Flett recommends setting down some paper towels around the highchair, so you can easily collect the shrapnel. But this looks messy, and I don't recommend it. It's a nice gesture if you pick up the larger pieces of food, says Enders, like that rejected chicken leg, perhaps using a napkin. But you need not do any more. The server or busser can do it much more efficiently than you can. As Franzen says, "We're the ones with the broom." It doesn't help the restaurant's atmosphere when a harried parent crawls under the table collecting mashed french fries.
Most parents don't bother even trying, says Franzen. "I've been in the industry for 10 years, and I've never seen a parent be really obsessed with cleaning up. They assume we'll take care of it." That's fine, but you should tip more (the same way you would if you spilled wine all over the floor). "Twenty to 25 percent would be generous," Franzen says. Personally, I think 20 is adequate, provided your kid didn't dump an entire bottle of ketchup on the floor.
I will soon be dealing with this etiquette issue myself, since I'm off to have a baby. My column will therefore run alternate weeks through February. During that time, I'll do my best to avoid baby-related faux pas like nursing him in a four-star restaurant or balancing him on the bar next to my martini.
I agree that leaving the kids with a sitter is the best idea, but don't any of you travel? Do you really leave your kids at the hotel with a sitter or order in every time you want a meal? Or do you really forgo any fine-dinning experience while on vacation?
I am new to parenting and very respectful of other dinners so I am genuinely interested in all the comments, but is it really that annoying...+READ
I agree that leaving the kids with a sitter is the best idea, but don't any of you travel? Do you really leave your kids at the hotel with a sitter or order in every time you want a meal? Or do you really forgo any fine-dinning experience while on vacation?
I am new to parenting and very respectful of other dinners so I am genuinely interested in all the comments, but is it really that annoying to share a restaurant with a baby/child - even a reasonable well behaved one? Truth be told, I've had to endure many annoying adults that rival even the worse behaved child.-COLLAPSE
Come Onnnnn...I've had 3..you don't take your
little ones out to Fine Dining restaurants...just get real about how life changes...and for Goodness Sake..tip your server well when Johnny/Jenny scatters food every where!!...you get to walk out...they clean up the 'after-math'.......
Easy solution. Teach your child how to behave in public. The're not stupid; in fact they're smarter than most adults. Include them in the conversation at the table and nicely correct them when they do something wrong. We frequently took our son to restaurants when he was very small; they frowned when we arrived, but were smiling soonafter when they saw that he knew how to be a good guest.
Ok, my turn! I used to be a waitress at a local lodge. Parents have NEVER over tipped me or most of the people I know who have been in the biz. I live in a relatively depressed area but come on! You bring 3 or more young children to a nice establishment but you can't afford to tip more than a dollar or two for your meal? I think automatic gratituities may apply here.
My Brother and Sister-in-Law...+READ
Ok, my turn! I used to be a waitress at a local lodge. Parents have NEVER over tipped me or most of the people I know who have been in the biz. I live in a relatively depressed area but come on! You bring 3 or more young children to a nice establishment but you can't afford to tip more than a dollar or two for your meal? I think automatic gratituities may apply here.
My Brother and Sister-in-Law have a very obnoxious 3 year old whom they take everywhere. She has a lot of health problems and dietary restrictions and no one ever corrects her because she's sick. I always volunteer to tip at family dinners out because they always leave such a paltry sum that it embarasses me. Come on everybody. Don't get mad, just play by the rules of common courtesy (or make up for family members who have never heard of such a thing!).-COLLAPSE
When you choose to have a child, you acknowledge that your life will change. Unfortunately the generation who is having children now have been catered to their whole lives and demand that the world conform to THEM rather than vice versa. There's also the whole competitive parenting thing going on too--"MY Jayden just LOOOOVES Momofuku's fried chicken!" "Oh, yeah? Well, Sophia is only twenty-one...+READ
When you choose to have a child, you acknowledge that your life will change. Unfortunately the generation who is having children now have been catered to their whole lives and demand that the world conform to THEM rather than vice versa. There's also the whole competitive parenting thing going on too--"MY Jayden just LOOOOVES Momofuku's fried chicken!" "Oh, yeah? Well, Sophia is only twenty-one months old and she knows what Thomas Keller looks like!" Just like everything else they've done in their lives these parents expect to be praised and fawned over because they've done what human beings have been doing for eons--reproducing.
I don't cringe when I see babies or children in restaurants. But I won't stop by the family's table and gush over how good they were if the kids act properly either. I will say something if, like other posters have noted, the kids are running around like spider monkeys on crack and the parents are completely oblivious or--worse--encouraging them. My one bad experience was in a local diner where a toddler pulled on my ponytail and his idiot mother ENCOURAGED him to do it again because "it's so cute, he LOVES ponytails!" I told her it wasn't going to be so cute when I threw him out the window by whatever arm he was going to grab me with. Fortunately everyone around was like "WTF, you let your kid pull strangers' hair?" It embarrassed her enough to leave, but there are a LOT of truly clueless parents out there.-COLLAPSE
The problem is the sense of entitlement so many parents have about their child.. "My baaaabyyyyy has the RIGHT TO GO wherever she waaaants! Deeeeaaaallll with it!!"; since a lot of them also feel everyone finds their child as charming as they do, they are often highly offended when someone suggests a particular place isn't appropriate for them. I mean, a Denny's, Long John Silver's, (really...+READ
The problem is the sense of entitlement so many parents have about their child.. "My baaaabyyyyy has the RIGHT TO GO wherever she waaaants! Deeeeaaaallll with it!!"; since a lot of them also feel everyone finds their child as charming as they do, they are often highly offended when someone suggests a particular place isn't appropriate for them. I mean, a Denny's, Long John Silver's, (really anywhere with formica tables & a kiddy menu), is totally fine. People expect it & don't go to those types of places to have quiet, intimate dinners with fine wine & intelligent conversation. But, if I am paying a good price for my husband and I to enjoy a bottle of Merlot & prime rib by candlelight, you're damn right any baby-related ruckus is going to piss me off. Not to mention, just because a baby smearing food/sauce/condiments all over themselves is cute to YOU, it's going to make others lose their appetite. It's just common sense, really. Plus, the baby/toddler can benefit from not expecting to go to out every time Mom & Dad does. When my parents wanted a quiet dinner together, they got a babysitter & I was happy to stay at home & eat pizza with a little friend & the sitter. I knew early on that my parents had some times out that were for the two of them which didn't always include me, and I had time to develop other interests/friendships; it's healthy.
Again, common sense for each situation, every setting is different; just make sure you're taking other diners into account as well.-COLLAPSE
I agree with lepetitechef that if you have small children, avoid expensive restaurants for your own and others benefit but do take your children to family oriented restaurants. Children should learn how to behave in social settings and family oriented restaurants are a perfect way to teach them. By the time they get into pre-teen and teen years, they will be well prepared to enjoy dinner at a...+READ
I agree with lepetitechef that if you have small children, avoid expensive restaurants for your own and others benefit but do take your children to family oriented restaurants. Children should learn how to behave in social settings and family oriented restaurants are a perfect way to teach them. By the time they get into pre-teen and teen years, they will be well prepared to enjoy dinner at a more expensive restaurants. As far as the mess a baby may make, I do not think any family oriented restaurant would bat an eye at a little mess, that's why the bus boys have htose little sweepers.-COLLAPSE
No one has the right to spoil my expensive meal with their screaming kids. I'm not spoiling your meal. Kids don't belong in an upscale restaurant at night period. It's not about not liking kids. It's about being able to enjoy a nice dinner that I'm paying lots of money for. Would these same people who think it's OK to have screaming children in an upscale restaurant think it's OK to bring a...+READ
No one has the right to spoil my expensive meal with their screaming kids. I'm not spoiling your meal. Kids don't belong in an upscale restaurant at night period. It's not about not liking kids. It's about being able to enjoy a nice dinner that I'm paying lots of money for. Would these same people who think it's OK to have screaming children in an upscale restaurant think it's OK to bring a screaming child into a movie at night thereby ruining your (expensive) movie experience? It's the same thing. The Tourettes syndrome comparison is too stupid to even respond to.-COLLAPSE
Nope. No kids. I've put up with all I can take. No kids. We've had lawsuits in our state about this issue. The parents are the problem. They don't teach their kids about proper behavior. The result is a nightmare. No kids. Keep your dropcloths and your chicken legs, rice, and your ill mannered children AT HOME. Teach them how to behave in a social environment first. Then, we'll see. Otherwise, no...+READ
Nope. No kids. I've put up with all I can take. No kids. We've had lawsuits in our state about this issue. The parents are the problem. They don't teach their kids about proper behavior. The result is a nightmare. No kids. Keep your dropcloths and your chicken legs, rice, and your ill mannered children AT HOME. Teach them how to behave in a social environment first. Then, we'll see. Otherwise, no children EVER.-COLLAPSE
It really depends on the type of restaurant you're going to. Anyone who brings a child into a $150 a plate dinner service needs to have their head examined. But in family-friendly establishments, I've witnessed a couple of thoughtful parents who have brought with them an inexpensive plastic tablecloth which they placed under the highchair at the table. It catches everything and cleanup's a cinch.
For the most part, I have no problem with kids in a restaurant. The occasional squeal of childish amusement is arguably less offensive than constant outbursts from certain boisterous adults. If my mother and grandparents had felt they couldn't take me to restaurants when I was a child, it's possible that I wouldn't have acquired a taste for diverse cuisines so early, if at all. I certainly...+READ
For the most part, I have no problem with kids in a restaurant. The occasional squeal of childish amusement is arguably less offensive than constant outbursts from certain boisterous adults. If my mother and grandparents had felt they couldn't take me to restaurants when I was a child, it's possible that I wouldn't have acquired a taste for diverse cuisines so early, if at all. I certainly wouldn't have learned proper dining etiquette otherwise. But there is the rub.
If parents/adults are going to bring children to a restaurant, it is their FIRST responsibility to ensure their young dining companions are under control. That means butts in chairs, food on the table, and indoor voices. If adults can't enforce these three rules, then the children don't belong in a restaurant that doesn't mainly cater to families.
On one occasion, my wife and I were having lunch at a cafe. Two tables over, two women were wrapped up in conversation, completely neglecting the infant sitting with them. For fifteen solid minutes, my wife and I endured constant, ear piercing shrieks. The mother made no effort whatsoever to quiet or pacify the child. When I finally had enough and talked to our server about it, she only offered us another table, because of course it's far too much to ask that the restaurant make any effort to speak with patrons that are disturbing others. At that, my wife and I cut our lunch short, paid and left, but not before thanking the oblivious women for their discourteous behavior.
Normally I hate confrontations, but I really can't stand people who feel they have the right to impose on others in ways that are out of the prevailing character of a place (ie, if were were at McDonalds, we'd expect to have to tolerate out of control kids, but not at a Viennese style cafe).-COLLAPSE
Please keep your children's shoes off the seats in restaurants -- their behinds belong in their seats. They walk in the same spit and mess we all do on the street, and I don't want to sit in it. Kids need to sit down for safety reasons, too.
Perhaps those of you who are so sensitive to any disturbance to your dining (or any public) experience should do yourselves a favor and stay in - where you can control every element of your environment. This way you can protect your precious selves from the intolerable assault of babies.
mchunt: changing a diaper is a malodorous, messy, and unhygienic activity. breast-feeding a baby is none of the above. if you don't want to watch, then don't watch. and you know, it is rather rude to stare in case no one mentioned that to you lately.
Babies aren't offensive in and of themselves. They're babies; they don't know any better. What is offensive are the parents. When I'm at a nice restaurant, paying far too much money for atmosphere, the last thing I want is to listen to either screaming babies or unruly toddlers. There is absolutely no reason for them to be there. If you want to enjoy an evening in a restaurant with your children,...+READ
Babies aren't offensive in and of themselves. They're babies; they don't know any better. What is offensive are the parents. When I'm at a nice restaurant, paying far too much money for atmosphere, the last thing I want is to listen to either screaming babies or unruly toddlers. There is absolutely no reason for them to be there. If you want to enjoy an evening in a restaurant with your children, go to a family-friendly restaurant. Don't make the rest of us suffer because you have no idea about social etiquette and expect the rest of us to accommodate you. Get over YOURself. Some of us 'miserable souls' like to go out to a nice, quiet restaurant to get away from the 'true annoyances and inconveniences of life', so we need you bringing them there. And we certainly don't need you breastfeeding your kids in our restaurants (or anywhere public, for that matter). Providing your kid with nourishment is fine, but do it in private. There is absolutely zero reason that it should ever have to be done in public. To be perfectly honest, it's disgusting to a lot of people. It has nothing to do with the boobs being out, it's more about the inappropriateness of such an intimate act being performed in public. You don't change a baby on a table out in public restaurant or in the food court of the mall (I certainly hope). so you should breastfeed your children in public either. It's simple politeness.
Don't be so inconsiderate to the rest of us. It's your kid: not ours. Don't make us have to be involved with it if we don't want to. Not everyone thinks children are blessings. Might sound a bit mean, but it's honest. I'm not trying to come across as rude or nasty, but i am trying to make a point.-COLLAPSE
No
it depends on the restaurant. we have brought our kids (now 7 and 4) to a wide range of restaurants, but it's a bit silly to bring them to a super high-end place like Daniel or Jean Georges. I have found that the majority or restaurants are very accommodating to kids.
Great analogy regarding bringing your grandmother to a Rave. Didnt know you were so hip.
Anyone who objects to bringing a baby anywhere like a RESTAURANT is ridiculous. There are plenty of adults who are much more obnoxious and even LOUDER than a baby. And so what if you HEAR the baby???? Smaller, younger humans are unacceptable? Maybe some of you haven't had the blessing of children yet, but people in general should not be so excluding of babies. When you go out in public, you have...+READ
Anyone who objects to bringing a baby anywhere like a RESTAURANT is ridiculous. There are plenty of adults who are much more obnoxious and even LOUDER than a baby. And so what if you HEAR the baby???? Smaller, younger humans are unacceptable? Maybe some of you haven't had the blessing of children yet, but people in general should not be so excluding of babies. When you go out in public, you have to deal with it. Babies, loud people who have had too much to drink, people who are wearing stinky perfume, people who love to hear themselves talk. Grow up, think outside yourself, and understand that children are blessings. It's going to destroy your dinner because you may catch a glimpse of a baby, *GASP* drooling or dropping food???? PUH-LEEEZE! Get over yourself and learn about true annoyances and inconveniences of life: debilitating disease, tragedy, and more. Stop sweating this microscopic stuff. If you really want to enjoy yourself somewhere, you will. Otherwise you're just a miserable soul who will find something to whine about in any situation involving the "general" public. AND in response to the author's mention of a "baby-related FAUX PAS"(???) will nurse my baby anywhere I damn please, and even my TODDLER!!! *GASP* and OH HORRORS once more!! Babies need nourishment and it should not be considered offensive to provide that nourishment. Actually, usually women in low-cut dresses show more boob than a mother nursing in public ever does. Perhaps you are misinformed how nursing works.....The infant only needs access to the nipple. The breast can be covered. No one outside my family has ever seen my breast or nipple and I've nursed in the middle of malls, parks, multiple restaurants, friends houses, and more. I've never had an issue from anyone and usually people just think the baby is sleeping.-COLLAPSE
@nicolson
Although I sympathize with you, I have to disagree. Acceptance of a person and being annoyed by a person are two separate issues. All the understanding and rationale in the world won't comfort me, or anyone else for that matter, when someone is screaming in my ear.
It's a touchy issue, I do admit, but a balance has to be struck between rights and civility. Although I have the right to...+READ
@nicolson
Although I sympathize with you, I have to disagree. Acceptance of a person and being annoyed by a person are two separate issues. All the understanding and rationale in the world won't comfort me, or anyone else for that matter, when someone is screaming in my ear.
It's a touchy issue, I do admit, but a balance has to be struck between rights and civility. Although I have the right to sing to myself, for instance, perhaps its not the best idea to do it at funeral. To some extant, everyone has to make sacrifices for the sake of others, some, unfortunately, more so than others.
Someone with turrets should know better than visiting a kindergarten at nap time, as another example. Although you have a mental disease, you shouldn't be disqualified from making sound decisions given that you have the faculties to do so.
Some people are less fortunate than others, because of diseases, because of obesity, or some other unfortunate circumstance. I'm not asking them to sacrifice their lives, simply to exercise good judgement honestly in respect to their own condition when deciding a course of action that has the potential to seriously disturb others.
This, of course, isn't addressing babies directly, so lets move on to that issue.
Babies are tough work. If anybody deserves a glass of wine and a good dinner, its the parents of newborns. Those people work their *sses off. Their hard work, however, doesn't entitle them to disturb quite patrons at fine dining restaurants. When those patrongs pay for their dinner, they're paying for the atmosphere as much as for the food, perhaps even moreso. Bringing your distracting baby into places like these is inconsiderate at best, and rude at worst. Assuring yourself that your baby will act appropriately is self-delusion - you can't control your baby, neither can it control itself, for that matter. It might act a certain way most of the time, perhaps even all the time, but that doesn't mean it won't break into jags of crying suddenly.
If you insist on going out for dinner at a fine dining restaurant, hire a babysitter, which presumably you should have the money for since you are, afterall, out to dine at at an expensive restaurant.
Loud baby is loud restaurant - go nuts.
Loud baby on a candle-lit veranda at a classy restaurant - you're nuts.-COLLAPSE
For all those complaining about the sight of a child being messy with food or having to hear a child being occasionally loud or just being generally anywhere near your precious selves: Do you think you also have the right to ban a person with Tourette's syndrome, cerebral palsy or other disability from your favorite restaurant? Because sometimes adults with various disabilities have difficulties...+READ
For all those complaining about the sight of a child being messy with food or having to hear a child being occasionally loud or just being generally anywhere near your precious selves: Do you think you also have the right to ban a person with Tourette's syndrome, cerebral palsy or other disability from your favorite restaurant? Because sometimes adults with various disabilities have difficulties with motor skills and moderation of voice as well. Stop being such jerks, people. (Honestly, it seems like the ones complaining here about all children and throwing around terms like "spawn" are the ones that need to do some growing up. Your parents seem to have never taught you that YOU are not the center of the universe--something that may have been helped if you were taught good manners in social settings, much like the original poster is attempting with her child.)-COLLAPSE
One thing I sincerely want to know is why people give a child more food to throw once he has indicated he doesn't want to eat but to throw.
Unless you're going to tip each other diner in the restaurant for your child's behavior, don't bring your child with you. We don't want any hardship (let alone even close to overwhelming hardship) when we're spending our hard-earned bucks at a restaurant.
My question is about the compensation. If normal tipping is 20, then how is that extra? 25-30 would be the norm for extra crazy, in my opinion...
I'm going to hope that the comment from rusty_s and some others are in jest and trying to make a point about nasty tone. Otherwise, I fear for the people out in the world who have to encounter you each day.
Children are small human beings. Yes, they should not be brought to ultra-high-end restaurants. But if they are well behaved, brought appropriately early and their parents are respectful of...+READ
I'm going to hope that the comment from rusty_s and some others are in jest and trying to make a point about nasty tone. Otherwise, I fear for the people out in the world who have to encounter you each day.
Children are small human beings. Yes, they should not be brought to ultra-high-end restaurants. But if they are well behaved, brought appropriately early and their parents are respectful of other patrons (taking them outside if there are meltdowns/crying, making sure they know they cannot yell, etc.) then they are simply engaging in human behavior and learning how to be social (something that some commenters here seem to need a refresher course in.) Clearly, the original poster is aware of if her infant is being a pill and will try to minimize any impact to other patrons--and Helena dispensed reasonable advice about how to navigate the situation.
But honestly people, if you are so completely disgusted by children, YOU should move to a desert island. Otherwise, please know that your douchy hipster disdain is as offensive to many of us as you feel children are to you. In what other circumstance would it be okay to be as awful? To demand someone be banned from a restaurant? If a patron in one of your favorite restaurants had Tourette's syndrome, or cerebral palsy, or a developmental or intellectual disability that otherwise "offended" you just by their very existence and by not keeping exactly to what you think your perfect dining ambiance should be, do you think you would be justified in demanding they be removed? Sadly, I have the feeling some of those with the more vicious comments might say yes.-COLLAPSE
I've been a server for years, and yes, rice is always the worst thing to deal with after a baby has thrown it everywhere. It sticks to the floor, highchair, table, your shoes, and broom when you're trying to sweep it up. HOWEVER, this should not stop you from bringing your child to dinner with you. It would be silly not to enjoy a meal out for this reason.
Add a couple extra bucks to the tip....+READ
I've been a server for years, and yes, rice is always the worst thing to deal with after a baby has thrown it everywhere. It sticks to the floor, highchair, table, your shoes, and broom when you're trying to sweep it up. HOWEVER, this should not stop you from bringing your child to dinner with you. It would be silly not to enjoy a meal out for this reason.
Add a couple extra bucks to the tip. Don't fuss with the mess yourself. I've had customers that want to clean it up, but that's not necessary. You are, after all, customers.-COLLAPSE
When we had kids, we hired a sitter and went to restaurants without them. I didn't expect to see other kids there and when we did and it kind of ruined the atmosphere. Some parents thought nothing of screaming kids, spilled food, spilled drinks, and letting their kids run wild. That being said, we went to more "adult" places that cost a bit more and that usually avoided the problem. If you want...+READ
When we had kids, we hired a sitter and went to restaurants without them. I didn't expect to see other kids there and when we did and it kind of ruined the atmosphere. Some parents thought nothing of screaming kids, spilled food, spilled drinks, and letting their kids run wild. That being said, we went to more "adult" places that cost a bit more and that usually avoided the problem. If you want to bring your kid, go to Chuck-E-Cheese or some place like that. When our kids could eat without spilling and sit still through a meal, we started taking them. They learned to order the right meals from the menu, were respectful to the wait staff, were quiet and did not leave the table. I was amazed at the number of compliments we received from other patrons and wait staff who expected the worst, but we waited to take them until they could conduct themselves the way we wanted other kids to act when we went out to eat. By the way, our kids were in the 3-5 year old range when we started taking them out to some of the restaurants that didn't cater to kids. It was a graduated thing as they learned proper manners when going out. Eventually, we ended up at some pretty nice places with them and they knew how to conduct themselves at a maturity level greater than their age. Today, as young adults, they get annoyed at parents with out of control kids, or people their own age who are loud and obnoxious in nice restaurants. The person who wrote the question is quite a ways from taking their child to a restaurant like she described. They should go to a restaurant appropriate for the child's age or wait until the child is old enough to conduct themselves appropriately in a restaurant where people expect to enjoy a night of quiet dining. It's about respecting other patrons and she was right to ask. At least she's thinking about it, where many don't.-COLLAPSE
No, never bring your baby to a restaurant. I don't ever want to be confronted with having to witness a small human. OMG GROSS. You should PAY ME to have to share the planet with your SPAWN. EWW.
When I had my first child, I felt it fell within the common bounds of politeness and common sense to not bring my babies to dine with me and my husband. Why ruin it for those around me, when it is so easy and cost-feasible to hire a babysitter for the night?
I totally agree with Tamas52. It's nice that you, as a parent, will tip more to the staff, but then does that mean I can tip less, since the ambience will be ruined for me that evening? I mean, a large part of eating out is to relax and enjoy the ambience isn't it? Otherwise I would just as well get my food to go and eat at a bus stop bench or something.
Sigh.
Rule one: eat early. Rule two: leave the enormous stroller at home or outside. Rule three: tip ginormously. Rule four: clean up after yourself. Rule five: kid bothering others in any way? Go home. (Mine almost never cries, but sometimes will say "Hi!" to nearby diners long, long past the point of cuteness. We inhale our food, rush the check and flee.)
Parents who don't already follow...+READ
Sigh.
Rule one: eat early. Rule two: leave the enormous stroller at home or outside. Rule three: tip ginormously. Rule four: clean up after yourself. Rule five: kid bothering others in any way? Go home. (Mine almost never cries, but sometimes will say "Hi!" to nearby diners long, long past the point of cuteness. We inhale our food, rush the check and flee.)
Parents who don't already follow these rules instinctively aren't likely to be reading this column. Non-parents who have little tolerance for children are not likely to have it increased by hearing from the former. We all, parents and non-parents alike, see ill-behaved children (rarely our own, of course) and want to shake their parents silly.
Now, let's all go do other things until next week, when we can hopefully go back to reading about what to do when your drunk party guests are having sex in your bathroom and there's a line forming in your hallway, instead of pointlessly debating obvious hot-button topics.-COLLAPSE
To the anti-baby posters and sympathizers: I get your feelings – before I had my little one I felt the same way. And what's more, I strongly suspect that if I was still single, I’d still feel that kids should be kept at arms-length. That being said, I think parents have a right to enjoy the outside world with their most precious loved ones (just like everyone else. And we pay the premium for...+READ
To the anti-baby posters and sympathizers: I get your feelings – before I had my little one I felt the same way. And what's more, I strongly suspect that if I was still single, I’d still feel that kids should be kept at arms-length. That being said, I think parents have a right to enjoy the outside world with their most precious loved ones (just like everyone else. And we pay the premium for doing so - both in the form of higher tipping expectations and the widespread animosity that seems to come at us from every angle – be it on planes, in restaurants, at the movies, even at the farmer’s market! I’m finding myself apologizing for our mere presence at “adult” venues and frankly, that just makes it hard to be a parent and still have any kind of life outside of your own domicile (and I suspect that is the intended effect). All considered, I find the overwhelming anti-child sentiment and movement pretty much discriminatory to parents.
And it is true that your experience guide your thoughts. I've had a total 180 because I’m a parent now. And I hope, but I doubt, that when some of you anti-baby posters become parents you aren't faced with the same ire from the non-parental adult world. Most will say, well that’s the life you chose, deal with it (presumably by not going out) or get a babysitter. And to that I say, why should parents be forced to pay YET ANOTHER premium just to enjoy social aspects of life again? And moreover, being with my child is fun – going out isn’t an escape – it is a valuable experience that I WANT to share with my little one. To the extent possible and as long as it doesn't cause overwhelming hardship to others in my surroundings I intend and encourage other parents to do so!-COLLAPSE
I'm sorry but the tip regardless how big it is ..not the issue.
We are not discuss how the restaurant get pid for clean up , but the experience we have to endure as patrons who actually pay fort that meal.
Would that parent who can't understand or mostly don't care to ruin my dining out will pay for my tab?!
I have no problem with the fact. Children have to develop and grow in social environment,...+READ
I'm sorry but the tip regardless how big it is ..not the issue.
We are not discuss how the restaurant get pid for clean up , but the experience we have to endure as patrons who actually pay fort that meal.
Would that parent who can't understand or mostly don't care to ruin my dining out will pay for my tab?!
I have no problem with the fact. Children have to develop and grow in social environment, but pardon me if I don't wish to be part og that experiment ,specially when that poor kid start with a moron parent in life who can't manage to understand to be respectful to others and pick the right place and right time to expose that kid to the world.
It should not be in a restaurant where people eat, and plop down good money to enjoy that meal and have a pleasant time with out blasted someone's bodily function, or early stage OCD.
There are jungle Jim I hear for that ... Or a behavioral education course for that mother who don't get the jest of this ..-COLLAPSE
Babies in restaurants. Again. How many times can we beat this particular horse to death? Not that it matters - the discussion is guaranteed to become so nasty that the thread will be locked by tomorrow.
I grew up in middle of nowhere southern Ohio, my mom has social anxiety, and my dad hates spicy food. Oh, and did I mention I never tried Chinese or Mexican until high school? Guess what, I'm here on this site aren't I? I'm calling bs on the ridiculous argument that parents taking you places at 1 year old is necessary for you to learn manners or learn to appreciate food. Get a babysitter or eat...+READ
I grew up in middle of nowhere southern Ohio, my mom has social anxiety, and my dad hates spicy food. Oh, and did I mention I never tried Chinese or Mexican until high school? Guess what, I'm here on this site aren't I? I'm calling bs on the ridiculous argument that parents taking you places at 1 year old is necessary for you to learn manners or learn to appreciate food. Get a babysitter or eat at home.-COLLAPSE
why the hell are we (the non-infant bearing adult population) constantly victimized by having to deal with pediatric beings ruining atmosphere of otherwise excellent eating establishments?? I totally understand that parent's of these infants and toddlers need to eat but there often very little care or concern that other patrons really don't want to see "young Johnny" throwing rice on the floor or...+READ
why the hell are we (the non-infant bearing adult population) constantly victimized by having to deal with pediatric beings ruining atmosphere of otherwise excellent eating establishments?? I totally understand that parent's of these infants and toddlers need to eat but there often very little care or concern that other patrons really don't want to see "young Johnny" throwing rice on the floor or having said MElTDWON at the table... its unsightly and makes the ambiance truly unpalatable.
I hope to be a parent soon but I know I would never take my child when very young to an "atmospheric" type place... Sure a local dive or family place but definitely NOT somewhere with linens on the table and quiet jazz filtered in the background... Luckily I cook pretty well so making Rack of Lamb, Bulgogi or Bun Thit Nuong at home although not quite as good as eating out at a high end place is pretty darn good and will have to suffice until that time is reached when the little ones can behave in a reasonable and courteous manner.-COLLAPSE
I agree with many who have stated that it's the parents who are the problem, not the children. I'll add to that, when others see not an oblivious parent, but one who is trying to do something when the little one is having a meltdown, as most kids will do at some point....they are FAR more understanding. In general, people seriously underestimate the value of an apology, no matter what the issue....+READ
I agree with many who have stated that it's the parents who are the problem, not the children. I'll add to that, when others see not an oblivious parent, but one who is trying to do something when the little one is having a meltdown, as most kids will do at some point....they are FAR more understanding. In general, people seriously underestimate the value of an apology, no matter what the issue. And speaking only for myself, I do notice the well behaved children.
I do, however, want to chime in on the sentiment suggesting that unless you take your children everywhere with you, they'll never learn how to behave. To this..well... I call BS. My parent's didn't tote me everywhere with them when they went out, and yet, shockingly enough, I actually know how to behave in a restaurant.-COLLAPSE
lexylu: The obvious response to your seemingly rhetorical question is that if you can't afford a babysitter, how can you afford a restaurant? You either have the means to raise a child AND enjoy the lifestyle you had before you had kids or you don't. Many people would say you made the choice to have a child: live with the consequences. (And you're damn right I have no intention of having one...+READ
lexylu: The obvious response to your seemingly rhetorical question is that if you can't afford a babysitter, how can you afford a restaurant? You either have the means to raise a child AND enjoy the lifestyle you had before you had kids or you don't. Many people would say you made the choice to have a child: live with the consequences. (And you're damn right I have no intention of having one myself.)
That said, you all child-lovers catch me when you ask how I got to be the Chowhound I am today. My parents gave me a wide variety of food experiences (not easy to do in 1970s-1980s Oklahoma)—taking me on trips, taking me to the one decent Mexican, Indian, Chinese (actually I don't think it was decent but at 7 I was down with the sweet-and-sour pork etc.). restaurant in town, etc. I'm eternally grateful for that, knowing as I do many people back home who consider black olives exotic. How can I deny others the education I had? So I guess I've got to concede this one.
Truth be told I think I'm more bothered by kids in nice places in theory than in practice—I agree with mountaincachers in suggesting that you only notice the brats, and they're few and far between compared to well-behaved kids. Just like adults, as others have noted.
I remain unmoved by the same arguments for dogs.-COLLAPSE
Congratulations Helena! You'll find out soon enough that while half the restaurant doesn't want you to bring your kid to the decent local joint and would prefer you camp it out over at Chunky Cheeses, the other half doesn't mind at all as long as your child is behaving and not throwing food at them. With all the talk about improving they way we eat, organic, sustainability etc etc I am surprised...+READ
Congratulations Helena! You'll find out soon enough that while half the restaurant doesn't want you to bring your kid to the decent local joint and would prefer you camp it out over at Chunky Cheeses, the other half doesn't mind at all as long as your child is behaving and not throwing food at them. With all the talk about improving they way we eat, organic, sustainability etc etc I am surprised that people expect kids to be relegated to gross "family style" restaurants. How did these people learn to appreciate food? I doubt their parents only took them to crappy restaurants. I think people need to be a little more...tolerant of others.-COLLAPSE
I own and work in a restaurant, an Italian joint, where children are always welcome. Usually, families with small children dine early, so active, expressive children are not likely to share the room with guests seeking a more intimate experience later in the evening.
I and my staff expect to clean after all guests, including children; it's our job, and we know how to do it. After a particularly...+READ
I own and work in a restaurant, an Italian joint, where children are always welcome. Usually, families with small children dine early, so active, expressive children are not likely to share the room with guests seeking a more intimate experience later in the evening.
I and my staff expect to clean after all guests, including children; it's our job, and we know how to do it. After a particularly rambunctious young guest has used tabletop and floor as a Pollock canvas, my servers always appreciate finding a generous gratuity among the stained napkins and water spills: an acknowledgment and sign of gratitude from parents who already have their hands full.
Finally, there's the obvious: find a wonderful restaurant that welcomes you and your children, and demonstrate your appreciation for all they do by making it your place, returning often.-COLLAPSE
I don't like being in a restaurant with ill behaved patrons, whether they are screaming children, drunk adults, or fools shouting into their cell phones. Age is not the issue to me; bad behavior is. Like lexilu, I am amazed by the venom some people express towards ALL children, regardless of behavior. I think part of the problem is that the children that they remember are the ones who are poorly...+READ
I don't like being in a restaurant with ill behaved patrons, whether they are screaming children, drunk adults, or fools shouting into their cell phones. Age is not the issue to me; bad behavior is. Like lexilu, I am amazed by the venom some people express towards ALL children, regardless of behavior. I think part of the problem is that the children that they remember are the ones who are poorly behaved (Just like people notice the "Ugly Americans" abroad and not the ones who try to blend in).
We took our son to restaurants from an early age. He never ordered off the kid's menu, and now at age 11 is able to dine ANYWHERE with excellent behavior. (Often the people rolling their eyes when we walk in are the same people who come over to our table to compliment his behavior as they are leaving). We always went early, so that he wouldn't be tired or fussy and to decrease the likelihood of someone being there on a date. Really, if you go to dinner at 6 pm, there is a higher likelihood of encountering children. I think ethnic restaurants are a good choice too, as they are often casual and child friendly (and gives your child a chance to expand their palate).
Tip big if you leave a mess. Another useful tip is to become a regular at a restaurant. There is a Chinese restaurant near us that has watched our son grow up. When we go without him, the waitstaff always asks about him by name.
Like anything else, restaurant manners take practice. I think practicing good table manners at home is very important, but at some point children need to know how to behave in a restaurant (how to order politely, how to interact with waitstaff, how to behave in more distracting atmosphere than home). The only way to to that is by practice. Going to Chucky Cheese doesn't count, because any restaurant where you can race around like a wild person adds to the problem instead of correcting it.-COLLAPSE
My kids are all grown now, but we went to restaurants regularly when they were growing up. Not fancy-shmancy 'grown-up' places, but not chucky cheese, either; plenty of 'nice' restaurants. Many times, people on their way out would compliment us on how well-behaved the kids were. I agree with those who have said it's the parents, not the kids, who are the problem. (Which, incidentally, is not...+READ
My kids are all grown now, but we went to restaurants regularly when they were growing up. Not fancy-shmancy 'grown-up' places, but not chucky cheese, either; plenty of 'nice' restaurants. Many times, people on their way out would compliment us on how well-behaved the kids were. I agree with those who have said it's the parents, not the kids, who are the problem. (Which, incidentally, is not confined to the restaurant venue... how often do we see kids running rampant in stores, their oblivious parents nearby?) We taught our kids how to behave properly, and then expected them to do it! (If they didn't, they went outside for the dreaded talk with Dad...)
To those of you who think kids should be consigned to the dungeon rather than ever be taken to any restaurant(you know who you are): I pray to the FSM that none of you ever pass on your selfish, arrogant genes.-COLLAPSE
I have been quietly reading posts on Chow for quite some time now and I've never felt as compelled to speak up as I do now. I am astounded by the ugly sentiment and rhetoric advanced by some posters. First of all, to suggest that children are anything akin to animals and should be caged (as in zoos) is deeply offensive and not a little bit maddening.
Second, if you don't see the inherent...+READ
I have been quietly reading posts on Chow for quite some time now and I've never felt as compelled to speak up as I do now. I am astounded by the ugly sentiment and rhetoric advanced by some posters. First of all, to suggest that children are anything akin to animals and should be caged (as in zoos) is deeply offensive and not a little bit maddening.
Second, if you don't see the inherent injustice you're advancing, let me educate you. If you had your way, all adult-friendly places (i.e., everywhere in the world besides chucky cheese, gymboree and their ilk) would be baby-free zones. By suggesting that all children stay out of restaurants (or as someone posted earlier - stay out of any public adult arena), you are in effect relegating parents to the position of either staying at home 24/7 with their children (with the exception of trips to child-focused zones like chucky cheese) or otherwise paying for the privelege getting any time outside of the house. Can you see how this would be especially difficult on particular groups (e.g., single parents, low income families, parents of very young or nursing babies, etc.)? Can you not see how this could be inconsiderate at the very least - damnwell discriminatory at worst???!
Furthermore, as a new parent, I've run into some rude strangers who demonstrably shudder as soon as my 9 month old and I approach the threshold of various coffeehouses, cafes or restaurants. And invariably, after 20 or 30 minutes of "enduring" my well-behaved, pleasant and downright gorgeous daughter, they are leaning half-way into my appetizer to gush adoringly all over her. By the time we're leaving the joint, I have to spend an extra 5 minutes waiting as her new fans (those same strangers who called themselves shuddering when we first entered) try to get her to smile and wave 'buh-bye'! It never fails.
And believe me, that would NEVER have been the case if restauranteurs, patrons and friends hadn't been patient, loving and open enough to allow me to socialize her properly from 1 month old. I highly recommend that anyone with children (you too Helena - love your posts by the way) do what we do: weekly mommy-daughter lunches at a variety of spots both high and low brow. It is a learning process but great fun. Normal, well-adjusted adults will encourage or at least tolerate you and your family with the same respect as they would anyone who has a lifestyle that isn't their own. The rest of those haters just need to fix their face and get over it.-COLLAPSE
Congratulations Helena! I really enjoy your columns (and the debate they inspire) and I wish all the best for you and your baby.
I am only for having kids in restaurants if they are bound, gagged and leashed. Just because one is not eating at a four star does not mean that one should have a meal ruined by loud, rude, tantrum tossing, wild animals running through the tables. I am sure there are well behaved kids at restaurants but they are the exception, not the rule.
I've been bringing my boys out to eat with us since they were tiny (my first guy--now 2 years--was just over a month old his first time!) and yes they make messes. No they don't scream and freak out... they love seeing new things/places/people, so they have lots to keep them happy. I try to clean up as well as I can without looking like I'm crawling on the floor. And I always tip well. People...+READ
I've been bringing my boys out to eat with us since they were tiny (my first guy--now 2 years--was just over a month old his first time!) and yes they make messes. No they don't scream and freak out... they love seeing new things/places/people, so they have lots to keep them happy. I try to clean up as well as I can without looking like I'm crawling on the floor. And I always tip well. People remember us when we go back, and not in a bad way. Probably they know I'm gonna tip well just for 5 minutes of cleanup, heh. :)-COLLAPSE
I don't see the big deal with bringing a baby who is well behaved. I do know parents who will purposely pick the loudest restaurant they know because they think it gives them the go ahead to bring their little darling who is guaranteed to have a tantrum, make a mess, and possibly break a few dishes. There are other children who are very well behaved and won't bother anyone, so I think it's silly...+READ
I don't see the big deal with bringing a baby who is well behaved. I do know parents who will purposely pick the loudest restaurant they know because they think it gives them the go ahead to bring their little darling who is guaranteed to have a tantrum, make a mess, and possibly break a few dishes. There are other children who are very well behaved and won't bother anyone, so I think it's silly to have a blanket ban on children. I do agree that if no high chairs are offered, it's probably best not to go to that restaurant.-COLLAPSE
As long as all that the child is doing is eating a bit messily why would anyone care? Unless they are misbehaving I don't see a problem at all with having a child at a restaurant, and I don't have any children. IME, rude adults are the ones who cause most problems with restaurant annoyances.
Baby wipes are amazing for cleaning up food messes whether caused by babies or not.
I also tend to tip much higher than Helena says if my child made a mess even though I typically will clean it up myself unless it is not possible to do so. By the way, if you give the baby rice one small bite at a time, you will have a much smaller mess. Doesn't work with all babies :(
My parents always made it a point to take us to restaurants because they felt like this was the only way we would learn to behave in one. "Kid-friendly" restaurants are great but going out to nice places and being forced to keep my youthful rambunctiousness was a great lesson for me (And it also explains why so many people my age are still not "age-appropriate" when they go out. Your kids are...+READ
My parents always made it a point to take us to restaurants because they felt like this was the only way we would learn to behave in one. "Kid-friendly" restaurants are great but going out to nice places and being forced to keep my youthful rambunctiousness was a great lesson for me (And it also explains why so many people my age are still not "age-appropriate" when they go out. Your kids are kids, not animals, they don't need too high a level of pandering.just be conscious of venue. To judge I'd ask, if it was a night out with out m little ankle-bitter, would I be annoyed if he/she was at the table next to me?-COLLAPSE
First, the headline is horrible. "Can I Take My Baby to a Restaurant?" Well, of course you can. The question isn't "Can I?" - it's "Should I?" Words have meanings Chow editors. And second, the answer to the question "Should I?" is obvious: It depends. It depends on the restaurant and it depends on your child. As one source said in the column, call ahead and ask.
Haven't we covered this topic ad nauseam?
We've been taking our daughter to restaurants since she was 2 weeks old. The moment there was *any* sort of misbehavior, one of us immediately took her outside. No more fun for her. This quickly taught her that it doesn't pay to misbehave. She knows about restaurant voice, and that you say please and thank you. She doesn't make a mess, doesn't put her napkin on her head. The parents are the...+READ
We've been taking our daughter to restaurants since she was 2 weeks old. The moment there was *any* sort of misbehavior, one of us immediately took her outside. No more fun for her. This quickly taught her that it doesn't pay to misbehave. She knows about restaurant voice, and that you say please and thank you. She doesn't make a mess, doesn't put her napkin on her head. The parents are the issue. If they're not willing to take the time to teach correct dining rules to their children, then how will the children learn them?
Never leave a table looking like a war happened - I can't imagine leaving rice all over the floor. But if the parents can both teach the child not to do that, AND clean up after him/her when it does happen, why shouldn't the child be allowed in (assuming this is the worst offense).-COLLAPSE
The general behavior in this country is alarmingly arrogant and rude toward others far as respect others dining experience . To subject other patrons to your small child and his on hers bodily functions, and behavioral endeavors ,and lock of civilization is arrogant and mostly ignorant.
We don't owe you to experience your child ,even so you think she or he is Ssooo cute,! NOT .
If you as a...+READ
The general behavior in this country is alarmingly arrogant and rude toward others far as respect others dining experience . To subject other patrons to your small child and his on hers bodily functions, and behavioral endeavors ,and lock of civilization is arrogant and mostly ignorant.
We don't owe you to experience your child ,even so you think she or he is Ssooo cute,! NOT .
If you as a parentcan't understand that YOU yourself should stay out and wrangle your child in the privacy of your home . We globally do not owe you to ruin a nice meal , just because you manage to spawn.
I would reccommend the zoo until you have a old enough child , or grown up parent who can comprehend this very elemental concept , don't subject others to your undeveloped family members.-COLLAPSE
Many many restaurants are child friendly, but just like any other time you require special services, I'm sure the restaurant would appreciate some advance notice. That way they can arrange to have you seated someplace other than right in front of the huge aquarium with that ugly fish that makes your innocent start screaming in terror. And for heaven's sake, if a restaurant tells you that they...+READ
Many many restaurants are child friendly, but just like any other time you require special services, I'm sure the restaurant would appreciate some advance notice. That way they can arrange to have you seated someplace other than right in front of the huge aquarium with that ugly fish that makes your innocent start screaming in terror. And for heaven's sake, if a restaurant tells you that they really aren't set up to accommodate young children and infants, why don't you take their word for it? If they don't have child seats or high chairs, and the tot is going to be balanced on your knee the whole time, how much fun is that going to be for anyone.-COLLAPSE
Poop is poop.
Barf is barf.
Ther is no place for either, when people are EATING.
Soupkitten - O couldn't agree more about the barf. Parents seem to get immune to the "gross factor".
Also GROSS :
Parents that lift their toddler up, and sniff the toddler's BUTT, to see if it's time to change the diaper !! They aren't even discreet about it.
I should not be subjected to such crude behavior, while I'm about ready to place food into my mouth.
I'd rather sit by a quiet toddler than a pompous jerk loud talking on his cell phone. Can we have a sign that says no assholes allowed?
Not every kid is some crazy loud food throwing monster. If all kids know is "chuckos play pen" just when the hell is he going to develop an appreciation for real food? manners appropriate in a restaurant?
i'm with Pia & Guilty on the 30%. come on, the server gets to do a lot of extra work moving and cleaning furniture, including sending high chair parts thru the hobart and returning them to order on the chair. i think new parents should also dine early (5 & 5:30) and more often at family friendly establishments. it's common courtesy toward the staff and your fellow patrons, and it will be to the...+READ
i'm with Pia & Guilty on the 30%. come on, the server gets to do a lot of extra work moving and cleaning furniture, including sending high chair parts thru the hobart and returning them to order on the chair. i think new parents should also dine early (5 & 5:30) and more often at family friendly establishments. it's common courtesy toward the staff and your fellow patrons, and it will be to the family's own advantage, because staff will have more time to take care of any special needs, and it will be quieter and less overstimulating for little ones.
also, and i can't possibly stress this enough: contrary to cooing new-parent common belief, baby barf is still barf. it's not magically sterile, flower scented and non-gross just because your baby is the cutest little thing ever. if your kid barfs anywhere in a restaurant, i would encourage you to be responsible and considerate--have the fucking common decency to 1) tell someone what happened and 2) clean it yourself or 3) tip excessively the person who dons gloves and comes out with the sanitizer to scrub and disinfect the biohazard.-COLLAPSE
Is it illegal to have a sign that says no children allowed? I have been having this discussion with my gf and I really see no need to have a baby in any public establishment that is not specifically designed for them. I don't care if your kid is the second coming of Buddha I don't want to be around it when I'm paying for a service with my hard earned dollars and clearly the child isn't going to...+READ
Is it illegal to have a sign that says no children allowed? I have been having this discussion with my gf and I really see no need to have a baby in any public establishment that is not specifically designed for them. I don't care if your kid is the second coming of Buddha I don't want to be around it when I'm paying for a service with my hard earned dollars and clearly the child isn't going to know the difference between chuckos play pen and a decent local joint.-COLLAPSE
I think 20% for a baby mess tip is being cheap. I would suggest leaving at least 25%, and I prefer Pia's standard of 30%.
Of course, my brother is almost 30 and still gets rice on the floor. I hope he's a generous tipper . . .
We tip around 30% when our kid ends up with a halo of rice around his chair. We think of it as the "toddler tax."
I agree Helena - 20% is adequate. Maybe 25% is for Manhattan where everything is so expensive.