Game Meat Grub for the Big Game
Sunflower-Seed Milk Substitute
Low-Fat Fish Dishes
Faux Pas: The Chef Was Texting
Open a Beer with a Piece of Paper
Belgian Brewers Are Copying Us!
Dear Helena,
I went out on a first date with some dude I met online. Everything was going great until he ordered for me. He let me choose what I wanted, but when the server came, before I could open my mouth, he said, “I’ll have the steak, and the lady will have the ravioli.” Maybe he was just trying to be chivalrous, the same way he would hold open the door for me, but something about it rubbed me the wrong way. This lady is perfectly capable of addressing the server herself. Is it ever OK for the man to give the woman’s order to the server?
—Speaks for Herself
Dear Speaks for Herself,
The first female restaurant-goers would not have dreamed of ordering for themselves. Women began dining out for pleasure around the 1840s in the United States, says William Grimes, author of Appetite City: A Culinary History of New York. (Before this, public eating establishments consisted of taverns, inns, and men’s clubs and did not cater to women.) Well-bred women always had a male companion who ordered their dinner. In fact, many restaurants did not even admit women without a male chaperon.
Rebecca L. Spang, author of The Invention of the Restaurant: Paris and Modern Gastronomic Culture, explains: “The public sphere in the 19th century … was encoded as male.” In other words, it was indecorous for ladies to address men outside their circle of family and friends, even if it was just to say, “I’ll have the roasted chicken.”
Since men usually paid, giving the order may have seemed part of being a good host. In any case, it made more sense back then for one person to give the order, since entrées came in family-size portions and diners often split them. It was only at the beginning of the 20th century that the vogue for individual entrées began, says Grimes. “Many menus from the turn of the century have parentheses after the item indicating whether it’s a double or a single portion.”
But as women entered the workforce in greater numbers, they needed somewhere to eat lunch, sans date. Thus, in the early decades of the 20th century, explains Grimes, “there was an explosion of restaurants catering to the feminine aesthetic and palate.” For instance, a number of tearooms sprang up. A woman named Alice Foote MacDougall built a restaurant empire by understanding what women wanted: unintimidating rustic design (inspired by her visits to Spain and Italy), soft-spoken waitresses, and ladylike portion sizes. Gradually, it became more acceptable for women to dine out without a man, and they grew accustomed to ordering for themselves.
Some might argue that even though it’s now socially acceptable for the woman to order her own meal, it’s old-fashioned good manners for the man to do it for her. I disagree. I’m all in favor of old-fashioned courtesy, especially on special occasions, like a first date. For instance, a half-rise when you go to the bathroom is a nice gesture. But chivalry goes too far when it implies you’re a feeble flower, incapable of ordering your own food.
So a sensitive modern man would not dream of speaking for you. Michael Michaud, an urban developer in San Francisco, says, “I would only [order for a date] if we were eating family style, like in a Chinese restaurant.” He points out a better way to show old-fashioned good manners: Just let the woman order first.
But though your date blundered, it’s possible he meant well. You don’t yet know him well enough to judge. Maybe he will respect you as an equal. Or maybe he’s the kind of guy who picks up the tab in restaurants but assumes that the rest of the time you’ll do the cooking. The only way to find out is a second date.
On a first date, there is nothing more telling about a man's character than his MANNERS. Open doors, take my coat, pull out my chair, and place my order (after I have indicated my selection). Anything less and I am deducting points for lack of etiquette. If he's an ill-mannered baffoon on Date One I can only imagine what the clod will be like months or years down the road. And needless to say, on...+READ
On a first date, there is nothing more telling about a man's character than his MANNERS. Open doors, take my coat, pull out my chair, and place my order (after I have indicated my selection). Anything less and I am deducting points for lack of etiquette. If he's an ill-mannered baffoon on Date One I can only imagine what the clod will be like months or years down the road. And needless to say, on the first date the gentleman always pays for dinner. Lastly, I completely agree with LAYLA, it IS sweet and I too hope chivalry never dies. Here's to modern-day MEN with old-fashioned manners!
- A Biker, A Brat, and a Lady-COLLAPSE
Yes. I do love it :)
Equality as in the same rights.. it does not mean we want to be treated like men. I hope chivalry never dies.
I love when my husband orders for me :-) I always tell him what I want beforehand. I don't have to bother myself conveying my order and its sweet.
EQUALITY! Our ancestors forced equality us so she orders what she wants, works when she wants to, does whatever she wants to with pregnancy and if she decides to marry she uses whatever last name she wants to. EQUALITY! Don't you just love it?
honestly i think its time for chivalry to die its a system employed a long time ago by men who considered a moncharist tryanny to be gods will, and thought of women in much the same way we think of children, weak and incabbable of much thought or independence, in this modern time of independence and equality why should women go first or have doors opened for them thats still not the equality we...+READ
honestly i think its time for chivalry to die its a system employed a long time ago by men who considered a moncharist tryanny to be gods will, and thought of women in much the same way we think of children, weak and incabbable of much thought or independence, in this modern time of independence and equality why should women go first or have doors opened for them thats still not the equality we were striving for in the 20th century-COLLAPSE
That's funny. "You will eat what I tell you to eat lady!" LOL
MorkOrk, BlackDeath3:
Picking up the tab, on the condition that she does all the cooking at home--how exactly is that an advantage? Plenty of women don't expect their meal to be paid for, or even for men to do the half-rise or the door-opening. Don't make generalizations based on what someone said in an article.
Ordering for someone might be considered rude because you may not be allowing...+READ
MorkOrk, BlackDeath3:
Picking up the tab, on the condition that she does all the cooking at home--how exactly is that an advantage? Plenty of women don't expect their meal to be paid for, or even for men to do the half-rise or the door-opening. Don't make generalizations based on what someone said in an article.
Ordering for someone might be considered rude because you may not be allowing someone to choose or speak for themselves. Footing someone's tab might not be considered rude because the other person usually has to agree to the arrangement beforehand. Feminism doesn't stop applying when there's a privilege to be had, it stops applying when there's nothing sexist involved.-COLLAPSE
I consider myself a feminist . . . but I really can't imagine this bothering me much. If he actually referred to me as "the lady," I would probably laugh, and rib him about it a little (and actually, the mark of a good first date would be if I could rib him about it frequently throughout the night and he could laugh about it) but it's hard for me to see the behavior as offensive. Maybe it's an...+READ
I consider myself a feminist . . . but I really can't imagine this bothering me much. If he actually referred to me as "the lady," I would probably laugh, and rib him about it a little (and actually, the mark of a good first date would be if I could rib him about it frequently throughout the night and he could laugh about it) but it's hard for me to see the behavior as offensive. Maybe it's an age/generation/location thing - no one I know and no one I grew up with has ever/would ever do this, so it would merely seem anachronistic and quaint to me, rather than offensive.-COLLAPSE
Good grief!! It's just dinner for crying out loud. I would not be offended at all. In fact, I like assertive men because I have a strong personality myself. If you pay attention to commercials and comedies made for television, men are portrayed as dimwitted, weak buffoons. Our culture has been reduced to this. It's sad.
My parents, father especially, raised my sisters and I to stand up for...+READ
Good grief!! It's just dinner for crying out loud. I would not be offended at all. In fact, I like assertive men because I have a strong personality myself. If you pay attention to commercials and comedies made for television, men are portrayed as dimwitted, weak buffoons. Our culture has been reduced to this. It's sad.
My parents, father especially, raised my sisters and I to stand up for ourselves. He was a strong man who commanded the respect of the people who knew him by how he treated them. With respect.. Always....No matter how old or how young. Child or adult. It didn't matter to him. I loved that about him.
If a man wanted to order dinner for me...halleleujah!! Finally.. a man who isn't afraid to be a man. Trust me, if I'm on a first date with him, he already knows I'm no shrinking violet. And if he orders, there may be a second date in our future!!!-COLLAPSE
I am troubled by the outright sexist comments here. I don't give a damn if someone holds a door for me, or rises when I leave/arrive at the table. Whatever they feel comfortable with is fine by me. Someone place my food order for me smacks of condescension, however. Back when I was dating, I always paid for my food on a first date. (Guys always seemed to expect something in return if they picked...+READ
I am troubled by the outright sexist comments here. I don't give a damn if someone holds a door for me, or rises when I leave/arrive at the table. Whatever they feel comfortable with is fine by me. Someone place my food order for me smacks of condescension, however. Back when I was dating, I always paid for my food on a first date. (Guys always seemed to expect something in return if they picked up the tab.) After that, whoever did the inviting paid. This whole business of "don't take offense if none is intended" is a flash point in sex/race relations. Offenders always claim that "I didn't mean to offend anyone." The onus is on the offender, not the offended, in most cases. Clean up your act.-COLLAPSE
Speaking as a knee-jerk feminist, I would be deeply offended. I can't imagine any man who's known me even a short time trying this one out on me. This was not done in my parents' circle, either. My mom would've had a cow.
Wow I couldn't find a single comment supporting Helena's advice. Lots of men, lots of women and all agree this guy did nothing wrong. If it bothered you say something to him.
An open dialogue is the only way a relationship begins or survives. Listening to this Helena person seems like a great way to stay single for a lifetime. I have ordered for my husband many times and he orders for me, as...+READ
Wow I couldn't find a single comment supporting Helena's advice. Lots of men, lots of women and all agree this guy did nothing wrong. If it bothered you say something to him.
An open dialogue is the only way a relationship begins or survives. Listening to this Helena person seems like a great way to stay single for a lifetime. I have ordered for my husband many times and he orders for me, as long as we know what each other wants no problem. Feminism ceases to be empowering when it's used as a means of attack or every time we slighted and hurt. In fact one could argue Helena is the sexist one in this instant. Rise when I stand and pay but don't dare disobey or offend these are the manners of people living in the extremes, if you just want someone to love and to be loved it's so much simpler. Just treat him like you want to be treated and when he offends let him know. Don't complain online for hundreds of strangers to and one psycho columnist deal with, deal with it yourself.-COLLAPSE
To the OP: If you're going to be that nitpicking and critical, you're setting yourself up for a lifetime of nothing but first dates. Granted, the perfectly mannerly 21st Century thing would be for him to have said "May I order for you?" But if there's a second date and you want to order for yourself, just tell him that you appreciated what he did as a first-date gesture but don't want to make a...+READ
To the OP: If you're going to be that nitpicking and critical, you're setting yourself up for a lifetime of nothing but first dates. Granted, the perfectly mannerly 21st Century thing would be for him to have said "May I order for you?" But if there's a second date and you want to order for yourself, just tell him that you appreciated what he did as a first-date gesture but don't want to make a habit of it.-COLLAPSE
I literally laughed out loud when I read this. Not the question. It's understandable for someone to get annoyed at that sort of gesture. The answer was just bad. If I went to a restaurant and ordered for a girl, it wouldn't be because she is "incapable of ordering her own food". I'm actually 100 percent sure that is not the reason. Maybe the guy did it because he knew the place, maybe he did it...+READ
I literally laughed out loud when I read this. Not the question. It's understandable for someone to get annoyed at that sort of gesture. The answer was just bad. If I went to a restaurant and ordered for a girl, it wouldn't be because she is "incapable of ordering her own food". I'm actually 100 percent sure that is not the reason. Maybe the guy did it because he knew the place, maybe he did it because at one point you mentioned somewhere you liked ravioli online. Perhaps he thought you looked like a ravioli person. It doesn't matter, the point is he was doing it out of kindness. I'm not saying you have to thank him for ordering for you. What I'm saying is that it was ungrateful of you to not. You should have asked why he ordered that for you. Listened to him say that its really good here. Then said oh wow thank you. Helena, shame on you for pursuing such radical beliefs. I was raised that doing things like that is considered kind and thoughtful. Perhaps you should stop thinking that the man who ordered the food was attacking women. Maybe he was just ordering a meal. People like you really do cause a problem in modern society and it sickens me to see how many people respond to this. I'm upset with myself for letting your insane point of view get to me. But you need a reality check Helena.-COLLAPSE
Oh good grief. I know that society is still in a time of transition from when people aren't all treated equal to a time when they are (or will be, there's a ways to go yet), but to hear some etiquette expert say "Maybe he will respect you as an equal" just because the guy is trying to be polite on a first date is way over the top. What a ridiculous comment.
If you don't like him ordering for...+READ
Oh good grief. I know that society is still in a time of transition from when people aren't all treated equal to a time when they are (or will be, there's a ways to go yet), but to hear some etiquette expert say "Maybe he will respect you as an equal" just because the guy is trying to be polite on a first date is way over the top. What a ridiculous comment.
If you don't like him ordering for you, just tell him already.
Of course it's way over the top. 90% of the stuff I've read on this site reeks with feminism. And this:
If I order for the woman it's offending, but if I pick up the check she is fine with it?
Seems like feminism doesn't apply when women get an advantage out of it...
Is a good point. Apparently, there are plenty of women out there who still expect men to pick up the check? Come on... to reference the apparently obvious and certainly cliche, you can have equality or you can have privilege, pick one.-COLLAPSE
If I order for the woman it's offending, but if I pick up the check she is fine with it?
Seems like feminism doesn't apply when women get an advantage out of it...
the only time I order for the woman would be at a Filipino or other place for instance where she would not be familiar with the food and I would describe the dishes and help find something I am sure she would be happy with.
I would not dare order for most anyone I know otherwise because it would put my life at hazard
Oh good grief. I know that society is still in a time of transition from when people aren't all treated equal to a time when they are (or will be, there's a ways to go yet), but to hear some etiquette expert say "Maybe he will respect you as an equal" just because the guy is trying to be polite on a first date is way over the top. What a ridiculous comment.
If you don't like him ordering for...+READ
Oh good grief. I know that society is still in a time of transition from when people aren't all treated equal to a time when they are (or will be, there's a ways to go yet), but to hear some etiquette expert say "Maybe he will respect you as an equal" just because the guy is trying to be polite on a first date is way over the top. What a ridiculous comment.
If you don't like him ordering for you, just tell him already.-COLLAPSE
I wouldn't be offended if my date placed my order for me. And the men I work with, believe it or not, always rise when I excuse myself from the table. I am usually the only woman in the group, and I think it's a lovely gesture. And I make more money than most of them, so don't cry that I am a sellout to feminism. I don't ask them to do it, and if I did, they wouldn't listen.
There seems to be some confusion here between the man ordering what the lady has said she wants, and the man ordering what he's decided the lady wants.
The second option is definitely rude and condescending.
The first is usually just a matter of a fellow trying to be courteous, courtly and elegant, and do what he's been told is proper good manners. He might not understand it either, but likely...+READ
There seems to be some confusion here between the man ordering what the lady has said she wants, and the man ordering what he's decided the lady wants.
The second option is definitely rude and condescending.
The first is usually just a matter of a fellow trying to be courteous, courtly and elegant, and do what he's been told is proper good manners. He might not understand it either, but likely his main goal is simply not to be thought boorish, so when in doubt, overdo.
There's a world of difference between a man saying to the waiter, "The lady would like the prawns," and "The lady had damn well better have the prawns."
I agree with Dinwiddie's mum and dad: life is definitely too short to take offense when none is intended.-COLLAPSE
Sounds like she needs a lot of rubbing, the wrong and the right way.
God, I hate women. And feminism.
I ALWAYS order for my dates. And they find it flattering.
If you EXPECT courtesy and chivalry, then you should EXPECT the whole package.
You cannot, and should not pick and choose manners. We men are not a buffet table of niceties; you don't tell us "Honey, you BETTER get up from the table when I go to the restroom, but DON'T YOU EVER order my food for me."
If...+READ
God, I hate women. And feminism.
I ALWAYS order for my dates. And they find it flattering.
If you EXPECT courtesy and chivalry, then you should EXPECT the whole package.
You cannot, and should not pick and choose manners. We men are not a buffet table of niceties; you don't tell us "Honey, you BETTER get up from the table when I go to the restroom, but DON'T YOU EVER order my food for me."
If you do, then it is YOU who is rude and uncultured, not us.-COLLAPSE
I thin the point that many of the commenters are missing is "He let me choose what I wanted, but when the server came, before I could open my mouth, he said, “I’ll have the steak, and the lady will have the ravioli.”
It wasn't like the guy ordered for her without knowing what she wanted. I admit that I do it quite often with my wife of 25 years, but not always. However Helen was right on...+READ
I thin the point that many of the commenters are missing is "He let me choose what I wanted, but when the server came, before I could open my mouth, he said, “I’ll have the steak, and the lady will have the ravioli.”
It wasn't like the guy ordered for her without knowing what she wanted. I admit that I do it quite often with my wife of 25 years, but not always. However Helen was right on point, the guy may have just being acting as he was taught by his mother. As my parents told me, one should not take offense when none was intended.-COLLAPSE
Hazzzz12, If I went to a restaurant with someone who had been there, I might ask, "What's good here?" because I might learn something useful like that they fly in fresh seafood daily or are known for some fabulous dish. However, I think that's where the advice needs to stop. After information is shared, I would like to make my own decision about what I feel like eating.
The earlier comment about...+READ
Hazzzz12, If I went to a restaurant with someone who had been there, I might ask, "What's good here?" because I might learn something useful like that they fly in fresh seafood daily or are known for some fabulous dish. However, I think that's where the advice needs to stop. After information is shared, I would like to make my own decision about what I feel like eating.
The earlier comment about menu shock syndrome made me laugh. We used to have a friend (who sadly moved away) who would deliberate and deliberate between items on a menu. The waiter would come and he would blurt out a random, previously unconsidered thing from the menu. Invariably, he would be unhappy with his choice. Eventually, we would interrupt the order for him. As in "no, he doesn't really want the steak. Please bring him the prawns." That was sort of a unique case, which I hadn't thought about in awhile. Clearly, developed over time, not on a first date. As to the actual original question...I wouldn't write someone off for placing my order for me as long as I had done the choosing.-COLLAPSE
hazzzz12- How do you know she doesn't know what is good? You act like all women are Eliza Doolittle types who need an introduction into high society, when in the 21st century that's unlikely to be the case. Especially in your age bracket (mid- to late 20s) women tend to be more educated then men and would be just as likely, if not more likely, to be exposed to these things as you would. Just...+READ
hazzzz12- How do you know she doesn't know what is good? You act like all women are Eliza Doolittle types who need an introduction into high society, when in the 21st century that's unlikely to be the case. Especially in your age bracket (mid- to late 20s) women tend to be more educated then men and would be just as likely, if not more likely, to be exposed to these things as you would. Just because something is worth having for your tastes doesn't mean that she would enjoy the same dish. Nowadays women do enjoy fine dining without the company of a man.-COLLAPSE
hazzzz12—many of us women have said it's not that big a if you want to do the ordering for us; sometimes my beau does it for me, sometimes I do it for him, no big deal. *As long as we know what the other wants.*
I would be *very* offended by a date who assumed I needed "advice" ordering, especially "strong" advice. Double especially since I know more about food than most people. If it's a first...+READ
hazzzz12—many of us women have said it's not that big a if you want to do the ordering for us; sometimes my beau does it for me, sometimes I do it for him, no big deal. *As long as we know what the other wants.*
I would be *very* offended by a date who assumed I needed "advice" ordering, especially "strong" advice. Double especially since I know more about food than most people. If it's a first date, in the 21st century, I highly recommend you consider whether *she* thinks she needs or wants your advice, even if *you* think she does.-COLLAPSE
I'm a guy who takes women out to fine restaurants on a first date. There's a method. First I take her somewhere I know is good - in all respects, or as good as will fit the budget at the time. So when I go I often know already what is worth having and I won't hesitate to strongly advise her choice of meal. I personally would never order for her but the way I see it, it's simply his way of picking...+READ
I'm a guy who takes women out to fine restaurants on a first date. There's a method. First I take her somewhere I know is good - in all respects, or as good as will fit the budget at the time. So when I go I often know already what is worth having and I won't hesitate to strongly advise her choice of meal. I personally would never order for her but the way I see it, it's simply his way of picking what is good and showing the confidence to take the lead.
In saying that, I have heard from my mother that as she grew up it was close to unheard of to go out as a single woman or as a group of women (as reference I'm under 25).-COLLAPSE
Somehow, when one considers the range of possible bad date-related behaviors, a guy making a (arguably) misguided attempt at chivalry is way down low on my offense scale. Or maybe I've just had one too many handsy dates.
And really, this lady absolutely *can* open her own door, or flag her own cab, or carry her own television set up five flights of stairs, but it is nice to have a manfriend show...+READ
Somehow, when one considers the range of possible bad date-related behaviors, a guy making a (arguably) misguided attempt at chivalry is way down low on my offense scale. Or maybe I've just had one too many handsy dates.
And really, this lady absolutely *can* open her own door, or flag her own cab, or carry her own television set up five flights of stairs, but it is nice to have a manfriend show that he cares by offering assistance. I don't expect any of these things, but I admit (scandal!!), I don't hate it when it happens.-COLLAPSE
I once dated a man who used to sometimes order for me (after checking what I wanted) and sometimes he didn't. There was no rhyme or reason for his behavior (not ordering vs ordering) or so I thought....ah, after reading here perhaps he ordered for me when he picked up the check, and didn't when I was footing the bill. Never put it together until now.
Oddly, and he was the only man who did this...+READ
I once dated a man who used to sometimes order for me (after checking what I wanted) and sometimes he didn't. There was no rhyme or reason for his behavior (not ordering vs ordering) or so I thought....ah, after reading here perhaps he ordered for me when he picked up the check, and didn't when I was footing the bill. Never put it together until now.
Oddly, and he was the only man who did this that I ever dated, but at first I was surprised however it never bothered me in that I thought it was sexist. I still don't. I'd much rather pick my battles elsewhere when it comes to sexism....like where it matters.-COLLAPSE
BTW, Vorpal, I wasn't referring to the tradition of the man always paying for the woman! LOL
Somebody ordered for me once at what was then the top fine dining spot in town, without consulting me about my preferences before doing so. It was also something I would never have ordered.Was the man a pig? In this instance, yes, turns out he was. When you don't know somebody sometimes you tend to look for signs of their veering one way or the other, personality-wise.
Ordering for a woman...+READ
Somebody ordered for me once at what was then the top fine dining spot in town, without consulting me about my preferences before doing so. It was also something I would never have ordered.Was the man a pig? In this instance, yes, turns out he was. When you don't know somebody sometimes you tend to look for signs of their veering one way or the other, personality-wise.
Ordering for a woman (after finding out what she wants, that is) is usually considered old-fashioned and isn't done much any more, but the guy just may have been trying to err on the side of old-school manners. just watch for other signs you consider obnoxious and otherwise try to enjoy yourself. And if you go on a second date, sure, mention that you'd like to order for yourself.
Vorpal, your insight is fascinating- of course it would be that way, I guess I hadn't considered the differences in the lengths of histories, plus factoring in the same-sex-vs-antebellum-vs-feminist-vs-mid-1950s expectations. Good grief, it's amazing sometimes that we can all get along at all, what with all the various shifts in expectations. It's wonderful when we find it, though. :-)-COLLAPSE
Vladimir: I'm not the only one to have noticed this, it seems!
One wonders if the gentleman on this date was expected to pick up the check. That seems to be last of the old world customs to go by the wayside.
"The lady will have the roast beef...and the slut will have the hamburger!" I'm paraphrasing here, but it's from an old Elayne Boosler stand-up routine. I always think of this line when I hear, "The lady will have..."
I figure that Dude was nervous and anxious about making a good impression as a 'gentleman', who had read somewhere/been told that 'the gentleman always orders for the lady'. Maybe his daddy told him, who knows? At any rate, shouldn't be a dealbreaker unless he can't take a gentle suggestion that the 'lady' would prefer to order herself next time.
Re: the ordering wine thing, I've always been the...+READ
I figure that Dude was nervous and anxious about making a good impression as a 'gentleman', who had read somewhere/been told that 'the gentleman always orders for the lady'. Maybe his daddy told him, who knows? At any rate, shouldn't be a dealbreaker unless he can't take a gentle suggestion that the 'lady' would prefer to order herself next time.
Re: the ordering wine thing, I've always been the wine-orderer in my household or group of friends. Some waiters will still insist on presenting the cork/first taste to whatever random gentleman s/he can find nearby. The smart waiters (and the ones who receive the biggest tip!) are the ones who just ask. "Who would like to taste?" Usually I'll say, "We'd both like to taste it", so as to appear as less of a pretentious wine bore...-COLLAPSE
whoever said to take a chill pill was right on the money. a friend had someone order for her once, and it was different than what she told him she wanted (he decided he knew better, he ended up wearing it home, and paying for her taxi.) if you rather order for yourself, just say so. hey, that was very chivalrous of you to order for me last time, but i'd rather do it myself. end of conversation....+READ
whoever said to take a chill pill was right on the money. a friend had someone order for her once, and it was different than what she told him she wanted (he decided he knew better, he ended up wearing it home, and paying for her taxi.) if you rather order for yourself, just say so. hey, that was very chivalrous of you to order for me last time, but i'd rather do it myself. end of conversation. what's so difficult?
Helena's comments were pretty much on the mark, and its nice to have those reminders of where some behavior comes from. I found some christmas ornaments wrapped in my society pages in grandma's attic. Included was a picture of 5 women having a luncheon. The caption read: Mrs. Edgar Smith hosted Mrs. Jonathan Evans, Mrs. Richard King, Mrs. Evan Hunt, and Mrs. Hugo Lee at her home on..... The world has changed.-COLLAPSE
baileater: There is a profound difference between getting to know someone, and having someone wildly offended because of something small that needs to be assumed, as is the case here.
I stand by the fact that varying degrees of a desire to embrace tradition versus a move to reject it in terms of more modern, feminist approaches makes heterosexual dynamics far more complicated than same-sex ones,...+READ
baileater: There is a profound difference between getting to know someone, and having someone wildly offended because of something small that needs to be assumed, as is the case here.
I stand by the fact that varying degrees of a desire to embrace tradition versus a move to reject it in terms of more modern, feminist approaches makes heterosexual dynamics far more complicated than same-sex ones, where there seem to be fewer and largely unique expectations that have developed over a much shorter time, and thus don't have the complexity that comes with the baggage of a long and diverse history.
Your hint, basileater, isn't particularly useful when everyone has differing ideas on what constitutes appropriate treatment of humans, which is obviously where the conflict lied in the original poster's experience. Clearly, no rule book will hold up, as the rules are unique from person to person and there are so many of them, with varying degrees of importance.-COLLAPSE
Shame on the guy for appearing sexist while clearly he was just trying too hard (who knows, maybe he's actually sexist). I never order for my fiancee - even though she's a low talker who usually has to repeat her order several times. The only time I do is when we're having the same thing - it speeds up the process a bit.
Tatamagouche - I agree about the wine thing. A while ago I was out with a...+READ
Shame on the guy for appearing sexist while clearly he was just trying too hard (who knows, maybe he's actually sexist). I never order for my fiancee - even though she's a low talker who usually has to repeat her order several times. The only time I do is when we're having the same thing - it speeds up the process a bit.
Tatamagouche - I agree about the wine thing. A while ago I was out with a group of friends and one of my female friends ordered a bottle for the two of us. The server proceeded to pour me the first taste, which was extremely awkward. Even more strange because not only was the server the actual head sommelier of the restaurant and should have known better, but was also a woman.-COLLAPSE
It sounds a little deeper then just ordering for you. Did he pass gas or pick his nose? Or maybe he just sucks in general. Anyway if it bothers you put his online ass on ignore and move on.
Ah yes, what an affront to reason that individual women have different personal tastes and that those who date them generally need to take the time to get to know them. Nonsense indeed. Vorpal, you are not the only person who is thankful that you are a gay man.
For those who need it, here's a hint: Women are human and enjoy being treated as such. They are varied individuals just as men are....+READ
Ah yes, what an affront to reason that individual women have different personal tastes and that those who date them generally need to take the time to get to know them. Nonsense indeed. Vorpal, you are not the only person who is thankful that you are a gay man.
For those who need it, here's a hint: Women are human and enjoy being treated as such. They are varied individuals just as men are. Bear that in mind you'll be fine regardless of what you do. You don't need a rule book to tell you how to behave.-COLLAPSE
This topic has been covered on the boards as well. I'm female, but I tend to do the ordering for my beau. These days who orders seems to have everything to do with the practicality of the situation, nothing to do with gender. If he were to speak for me I couldn't care less so long as he gets the order right.
What's more annoying is when I order the wine and they still bring it to him to taste.
I order for my girlfriend all the time. She likes me to do it. She always has trouble ordering. She gets menu shock syndrome or something and can never order. It's always like a major life decision. We'll have to ask the waiter to come back three or 4 times.
Are you planning on seeing him again? If so, then it seems the first serious talk of the meal just happened (a little early, but such is life). Seeing as this was a first date and "Everything was going great" - I'd remind the lady Speaks for Herself that the Dude does not read minds.
How else are you both going to find out if those quirks and buttons are cute or deal-breakers?
Next time (if...+READ
Are you planning on seeing him again? If so, then it seems the first serious talk of the meal just happened (a little early, but such is life). Seeing as this was a first date and "Everything was going great" - I'd remind the lady Speaks for Herself that the Dude does not read minds.
How else are you both going to find out if those quirks and buttons are cute or deal-breakers?
Next time (if there is one) turn the tables, ask him out, pick the place, make the reservation, place the order and of course pay the bill. Not just to show how much you believe in Equal rights, etc.. but also to see how it all feels for you and him. If you end up dating, I'd hope at some point you will place his order, pay the check, etc.. Until then, Cheers. AC-COLLAPSE
To paraphrase a popular movie quote, lighten up, Frances. It's one thing if a man orders for you and you didn't let him know what you wanted--yeah, I'd be ticked off too. But if you say "hey, the ravioli looks good, I'm going to have that" and the man gives the server both your orders, look at it as time management. Living in the south I notice this, particularly among older couples, but I've...+READ
To paraphrase a popular movie quote, lighten up, Frances. It's one thing if a man orders for you and you didn't let him know what you wanted--yeah, I'd be ticked off too. But if you say "hey, the ravioli looks good, I'm going to have that" and the man gives the server both your orders, look at it as time management. Living in the south I notice this, particularly among older couples, but I've also noticed that the server will ask the woman about doneness of meat, side dishes, etc.
PS--maybe he's reading this and is offended at being called "dude I met online." ;)-COLLAPSE
I sense that there were other subtleties that ticked you off prior to this event...Or you're too sensitive.
I agree with the comment that you have to delay judgment for the second date. Otherwise you'll never meet anyone who passes your exacting set of standards. (Who amongst us hasn't made a misstep in conversation, particularly when we're nervous?)
In 1984, I was on a first date with a fellow...+READ
I sense that there were other subtleties that ticked you off prior to this event...Or you're too sensitive.
I agree with the comment that you have to delay judgment for the second date. Otherwise you'll never meet anyone who passes your exacting set of standards. (Who amongst us hasn't made a misstep in conversation, particularly when we're nervous?)
In 1984, I was on a first date with a fellow from Dallas, Texas who not only ordered for me, he didn't ask me what I wanted! I treated it as an amusing cultural difference (Southern culture vs. Northern culture) and had fun for a few dates until the novelty wore off!-COLLAPSE
First world problems.
For some reason I must give off some sort of "head of the table" vibe, because I'm always addressed first by waiters and given the check, even when I'm dining with men. It probably doesn't help that most of my friends are so interminably shy that they make me order for the table when we're out....
I agree that if the woman is ordering her own entree, that she should order for herself. But what if we are at a tapas restaurant or are sharing dishes? I'll take the initiative and order for both of us: "We're going to share the roasted asparagus appetizer, the lamb chops, and the grilled Branzino." It doesn't make sense for an order like that to be taken in two parts. There is nuance here,...+READ
I agree that if the woman is ordering her own entree, that she should order for herself. But what if we are at a tapas restaurant or are sharing dishes? I'll take the initiative and order for both of us: "We're going to share the roasted asparagus appetizer, the lamb chops, and the grilled Branzino." It doesn't make sense for an order like that to be taken in two parts. There is nuance here, especially since modern dining seems to be more and more about sharing many items from the menu.-COLLAPSE
Nonsense like this makes me so glad that I'm a gay man. Having to play guessing games with what strikes a particular woman's fancy would drive me to the depths of bachelorhood. I have girlfriends who are hardcore feminists who would swoon with delight if a guy ordered for them at a restaurant, and then others who would be offended to no end.
To the OP: his intentions were noble. Just make it...+READ
Nonsense like this makes me so glad that I'm a gay man. Having to play guessing games with what strikes a particular woman's fancy would drive me to the depths of bachelorhood. I have girlfriends who are hardcore feminists who would swoon with delight if a guy ordered for them at a restaurant, and then others who would be offended to no end.
To the OP: his intentions were noble. Just make it clear to him that you'd prefer to order your own food if you choose to go out with him again.-COLLAPSE