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Dear Helena,
Some of my closest friends, with whom I enjoy swank dinner affairs where traditional etiquette and table manners are expected and appreciated (we are talking Southern “Silver Queens” who really know how to party), have always invited me to the most entertaining events in their homes. I consider myself a “life of the party” kind of girl who can make people laugh and feel relaxed and can adapt to any social environment, but since I have become engaged to my boyfriend of seven years and I do not wish to leave him alone on a Friday night, I find myself no longer invited to as many of these fun parties as before.
He is very different from me when it comes to his sensitivity towards others at the dinner table: He is a bit crude and crass, he eats a bit messily and quickly, and he does not know the proper rules of etiquette at the table. He is like a bull in a china shop (literally!) when he is seated at a delicate table with fine china, sterling, and crystal. He even critiques the dishes by saying how much more of this or that spice it could use, or how it could be cooked differently. I know that he does not mean to be offensive—he is just so excited about food and cooking that he enjoys discussing it—but the host/hostess I know may be offended. His behavior can sometimes spill over into conversations as well (he frequently uses swear words as a way to be humorous, for example).
However, I love him and would not trade him for my friends, but I would really like to be included in the dinner invites once again, and him as well. I not only want us to be included, I want to feel like he is my “life of the party” counterpart who knows just what to do at the table and I do not have to wince at his statements (he already is the life of the party among some circles, so I know that he is capable). What can I do without being a nag? Should I expect him to alter his behavior so that we can “fit in” together in this crowd?
—Needing a Man with Manners
Dear Needing a Man with Manners,
People often write to me to complain about their rude spouses, friends, or co-workers and ask me how to reform them. Sometimes I advise them to overlook other people’s blunders, but at other times it’s right to step in. A rule of thumb: If someone’s behavior is hurting other people, then it’s time for an etiquette intervention. So when your fiancé knocks over a wineglass or vacuums up his food at twice the rate of the other guests, you should turn a blind eye. But criticizing a host’s cooking is hurtful, and you should tell him to stop.
Warning: This could go horribly wrong.
Sue Johnson, author of Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love, says: “New research says criticism from your partner is registered in the same part of the brain as physical pain.” In other words, telling your fiancé he has no manners is like stabbing him with a fork.
To avoid triggering a defensive reaction, you need to have what Johnson calls a “hold me tight” conversation: one in which your partner feels loved and secure. Don’t frame your remarks as a criticism of him. You might want to start the conversation by stating that you like that your fiancé always has such specific comments on people’s cooking—specific comments are more memorable. Then frame your critique as an “I statement,” talking about how his behavior makes you feel. For example: “However, a lot of people are really sensitive about their cooking, and when you tell someone the pork chops were overcooked, I feel worried that they will be upset.”
Your fiancé’s other gaffes—such as the clumsiness and excessive swearing—might stem from nervousness around your highfalutin friends. That’s easily solved. Just arrange a social event where he can get to know them in a more relaxed setting. For instance, invite your friends to a picnic. You might be surprised how everyone loosens up when lounging on a blanket (a thermos of martinis will help, too).
Next time you’re invited to a formal dinner, your fiancé will be more relaxed, and so less likely to knock the gravy boat on the floor. He’ll probably still pick up his pork chop to gnaw on it, but your host will know what a fun guy her guest is and will overlook the faux pas.
Heh oh, you mean YOU can't take ME anywhere? Oh, that's a relief! Thank God for that!
"Literally" a bull in a china shop? She is engaged to a male bovine? And her friends serve meals at retail establishments specializing in fine tableware?
wtf with the pork chop remark...they are intended to be eaten with the hands. I personally can get along with most anyone but if I am offended by snobs I go out of my way to let them know it.
My wife speaks very little English and when we encounter racism I do not hold back.
I'm on the LW's side here. Call me a 'snob', I don't care. Manners are important to me. They were ingrained into me when I was very young, and I just can't overlook constant bad manners from anyone. Of course, I don't 'say' anything, but a man with horrible manners wouldn't last 2 minutes with me...it's as much a deal-breaker as a man who will only eat fast-foods, etc. I can't be attracted to...+READ
I'm on the LW's side here. Call me a 'snob', I don't care. Manners are important to me. They were ingrained into me when I was very young, and I just can't overlook constant bad manners from anyone. Of course, I don't 'say' anything, but a man with horrible manners wouldn't last 2 minutes with me...it's as much a deal-breaker as a man who will only eat fast-foods, etc. I can't be attracted to someone who does things that gross me out. If that makes me a 'bad' person, so be it.-COLLAPSE
Actually is not g/f that's that way, it is me, LOL.
I'm just not that fond of strangers, sorry.
If these folks are as traditional as the letter-writer claims, they may be uncomfortable breaking with the tradition of inviting spouses as dining companions. The engagement would explain why he's being invited now but not before.
Still, I certainly hope she can talk to him about this. If not, they're in for real problems when bigger issues arise (haven't they faced anything yet in 7 friggin...+READ
If these folks are as traditional as the letter-writer claims, they may be uncomfortable breaking with the tradition of inviting spouses as dining companions. The engagement would explain why he's being invited now but not before.
Still, I certainly hope she can talk to him about this. If not, they're in for real problems when bigger issues arise (haven't they faced anything yet in 7 friggin years?)-COLLAPSE
Does he recognize that he needs to improve in this area or is he clueless? What is his educational level compared to yours? He might be intimidated by topics and vocabulary that he doesn't understand and expresses his anxiety through his ineptitude.
If there is hope here, he might he willing to take a course in social etiquette if he wants to complement your good efforst and willingness to...+READ
Does he recognize that he needs to improve in this area or is he clueless? What is his educational level compared to yours? He might be intimidated by topics and vocabulary that he doesn't understand and expresses his anxiety through his ineptitude.
If there is hope here, he might he willing to take a course in social etiquette if he wants to complement your good efforst and willingness to include him in your social circle.-COLLAPSE
My husband grew up in an unsophisticated and completely rude family. I spent the first 5 years of our marriage teaching him basic etiquette like looking someone in the eye when you speak to them and saying please and thank you in a restaurant. If he hadn't been willing to learn, (like his brother and sister) we probably would not be together today. It's either important to you, or it isn't , and...+READ
My husband grew up in an unsophisticated and completely rude family. I spent the first 5 years of our marriage teaching him basic etiquette like looking someone in the eye when you speak to them and saying please and thank you in a restaurant. If he hadn't been willing to learn, (like his brother and sister) we probably would not be together today. It's either important to you, or it isn't , and putting up with oafish behavior for 7 years would suggest it is not important to her. If it is important to her, and he cannot be taught, my suggestion would be not to marry him.-COLLAPSE
This's why it's easier to just stay single...*sighs*
Being affianced to someone, even after a 7-year relationship, doesn't mean you're chained to the guy. What's wrong with going to a party solo? Is he that insecure? Anyway, since this guy has been like this for 7 years, I can only tell the letter writer "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it!" :-)
To quote Karl Marx: "Bad manners can be excused if the sex is great."
This is not an impossible problem. Start at home in private. when the two of you are eating a nice dinner that you've cooked and he is "wolfing" down the food, lean back with a big smile and say, "hey, sweetheart, I worked hard on this dinner. Could you pace yourself so we finish together?" Then wink. At the end of the meal, especially if you noticed an improvement, or even an effort, smile...+READ
This is not an impossible problem. Start at home in private. when the two of you are eating a nice dinner that you've cooked and he is "wolfing" down the food, lean back with a big smile and say, "hey, sweetheart, I worked hard on this dinner. Could you pace yourself so we finish together?" Then wink. At the end of the meal, especially if you noticed an improvement, or even an effort, smile again, get up and kiss him on the top of his head and say, "thank you, honey, for going at my pace. That was a lovely and gracious good deed and it means a lot to me." Do that every other dinner, until it "takes" with less and less encouragement. When you no longer have to ask, move on to your next complaint. Same technique. This also works, in adapted words, with teen-agers and kids. And even some dogs. Best of all, if it doesn't work, you haven't hurt anyone, or caused any damage by your efforts.-COLLAPSE
I agree that she just might have to give up her friends to be with this guy. It's obvious they've already dropped her off of their invite lists. But, her big question should be this: Can she live with that? Or will she lapse into passive-aggressive behavior later and realize that she really didn't want to give up her friends? 'Either-Or' propositions involving friends & partners usually have an...+READ
I agree that she just might have to give up her friends to be with this guy. It's obvious they've already dropped her off of their invite lists. But, her big question should be this: Can she live with that? Or will she lapse into passive-aggressive behavior later and realize that she really didn't want to give up her friends? 'Either-Or' propositions involving friends & partners usually have an unhappy ending.
They should host a dinner party of their own. Make it a bit more casual so the BF is comfortable, and let him do the cooking if he's that into it. Invite the friends, plus a few others. See what happens. Otherwise, give up the friends, or see them without him around. Then they can structure their dinner parties around new friends.-COLLAPSE
Previous posts are insightful - Seven years? Does this story even add up? The writer likes to hang with “high-etiquette” people, but is in love with a “no-etiquette” beau? Sounds like there is another issue and she is using the etiquette to take the fall.
Have they not HOSTED a dinner? How would the BF react to criticism?
Perhaps if etiquette were explained as consideration for others, rather...+READ
Previous posts are insightful - Seven years? Does this story even add up? The writer likes to hang with “high-etiquette” people, but is in love with a “no-etiquette” beau? Sounds like there is another issue and she is using the etiquette to take the fall.
Have they not HOSTED a dinner? How would the BF react to criticism?
Perhaps if etiquette were explained as consideration for others, rather than using the assigned eating implement, then the BF would sign on. For example, the reason a man holds the chair for a woman at the table is because she is dressed in a long gown. OK, maybe that is not the best example. But the idea is courtesy and respect. If the BF does not get that idea, she should move on.-COLLAPSE
Is it just me or does the letter sound like Blanche DuBois from Tennessee Williams' Street Car Named Desire. Is the bf named Stanley? It sounds like the letter writer was taking a creative writing class and asked to write from the standpoint of a southern belle
This is an issue that the OP really should have resolved a long time ago. She's dated this guy for 7 years? Has he always been etiquette-challenged? And she's just overlooked it all this time? She takes him nice places and he behaves like a boor? That's because he doesn't want to be there. Is he willing to allow her to attend these things alone if she wants to? (assuming of course that the rate...+READ
This is an issue that the OP really should have resolved a long time ago. She's dated this guy for 7 years? Has he always been etiquette-challenged? And she's just overlooked it all this time? She takes him nice places and he behaves like a boor? That's because he doesn't want to be there. Is he willing to allow her to attend these things alone if she wants to? (assuming of course that the rate of invitations picks up again...) I think one or both of them have control issues.-COLLAPSE
You could always send him away somewhere to be re-programmed into someone that will get you invited to more parties, or, if you really love him, you can accept him for who he is, a clumsy oafish-but-loveable lout who’s trying too hard to be accepted by your circle of friends. You can coach him, but don’t try too hard to change him into someone he's not.
But, if all you really want is to go to...+READ
You could always send him away somewhere to be re-programmed into someone that will get you invited to more parties, or, if you really love him, you can accept him for who he is, a clumsy oafish-but-loveable lout who’s trying too hard to be accepted by your circle of friends. You can coach him, but don’t try too hard to change him into someone he's not.
But, if all you really want is to go to more parties and are embittered that he stands in your way, then sayonara boyfriend.-COLLAPSE
"they've been dating 7 years - aka, a Very Long Time."
This is the troubling part, to me. Didn't they ever have dinner as a couple with these dear old friends of hers during the seven years prior to the engagement? His behavior sounds inconsiderate, and I understand that she'd like him to change it - but why wasn't this a problem until now? I'm just afraid that that's how he's going to hear it...+READ
"they've been dating 7 years - aka, a Very Long Time."
This is the troubling part, to me. Didn't they ever have dinner as a couple with these dear old friends of hers during the seven years prior to the engagement? His behavior sounds inconsiderate, and I understand that she'd like him to change it - but why wasn't this a problem until now? I'm just afraid that that's how he's going to hear it too - how come all this was all right when he was her boyfriend, and now it's totally unacceptable, now that he's her fiance. I hope the marriage is far enough in the future that they're able to work out how to communicate their expectations to each other, since I've known couples to actually break up over things like this during the planning of a wedding (usually a super-stressful experience for the couple). Good luck t them both.-COLLAPSE
I agree with Tatamagouche -- they've been dating 7 years--aka, a Very Long Time. Why can't she approach him nicely, but directly about how his behavior is making it difficult for her to remain friends with these people?
I think it's normal that she'd expect him to attend *some* (not all) of these events with her since they are a serious couple, and behave himself for a few hours. These "fancy"...+READ
I agree with Tatamagouche -- they've been dating 7 years--aka, a Very Long Time. Why can't she approach him nicely, but directly about how his behavior is making it difficult for her to remain friends with these people?
I think it's normal that she'd expect him to attend *some* (not all) of these events with her since they are a serious couple, and behave himself for a few hours. These "fancy" dinner parties may not be his cup of tea -- but undoubtedly, part of being in a relationship is doing things with/for someone else that make THEM happy sometimes.
Also, regardless of where you were brought up--using fine china or paper plates--criticizing the host's food is never acceptable.-COLLAPSE
What's this? We're on page 3 of the comments and no one has called Helena an alcoholic for mentioning martinis? Helena--go buy a Powerball ticket RIGHT NOW. The stars are aligned in your favor.
Wow... what a load of hooey people are spewing here. I feel like I'm on the set of an episode of Jerry Springer. Thanks to tatamagouche for being the only one here to offer sane, well thought out advice. To the rest of you, it feels like you're simply trying to incite drama.
Certainly, you can do your best to try to help him improve his etiquette: make him aware of the fact that people find it...+READ
Wow... what a load of hooey people are spewing here. I feel like I'm on the set of an episode of Jerry Springer. Thanks to tatamagouche for being the only one here to offer sane, well thought out advice. To the rest of you, it feels like you're simply trying to incite drama.
Certainly, you can do your best to try to help him improve his etiquette: make him aware of the fact that people find it out of line and help him learn to act more in accordance with socially acceptable behaviours.
At some point, though, too, you have to recognize that going out and being in that type of atmosphere may not be his cup of tea, and you should accept that and allow him to refuse to attend.-COLLAPSE
Agree that there's something fishy here (and I don't mean a Pisces working for scale). After 7 years she is wondering about improving her fiance's etiquette? That's something that should have been worked out long ago.
seems like the issues go beyond table manners. raw language and off color comments that are seen as funny by some people are seen as crude and rude by others. If he perceives these as attributes that are important in making him who he is, then not only will it be hard for him to hear things as constructive criticism, but as an attack on who he is (Oh, so I'm a big embarrassment to you am I? Not...+READ
seems like the issues go beyond table manners. raw language and off color comments that are seen as funny by some people are seen as crude and rude by others. If he perceives these as attributes that are important in making him who he is, then not only will it be hard for him to hear things as constructive criticism, but as an attack on who he is (Oh, so I'm a big embarrassment to you am I? Not good enough for your hoity-toity friends, etc.) Perhaps the couple need to agree that he just doesn't need to be at certain events, in all likelihood he would be more comfortable not attending them anyhow.-COLLAPSE
I think the LW sounds like a nice lady who loves her BF but wishes he had some skills in this one area of etiquette. I bet they're both nice and fun. Could they take a couples etiquette class before the wedding (does such a thing exist)? Could she tell him how sexy it is when he uses the right fork (that usually works)? Or, likewise, that insulting the cooking or cursing at the table is a...+READ
I think the LW sounds like a nice lady who loves her BF but wishes he had some skills in this one area of etiquette. I bet they're both nice and fun. Could they take a couples etiquette class before the wedding (does such a thing exist)? Could she tell him how sexy it is when he uses the right fork (that usually works)? Or, likewise, that insulting the cooking or cursing at the table is a turn-off? As far as "changing" him to the point that he's comfortable enough at the fancy-pants dinners that he becomes the life of the party?: That might be aiming a little too high.
Another thought: Are there any men at these fancy dinner parties that could take her fiance under the wing and school him a little?-COLLAPSE
"I love him and would not trade him for my friends."
I bet her friends would love to hear that.
@MandalayVA,
An even BIGGER Ditto!
Anyone who describes themselves as "the life of the party" usually isn't.
@thomas64,
Ditto!
This sounds fake to me: A woman who hasn't pestered her boyfriend about his habits or made him change his habits in seven years? Sorry, that's not believable. I don't know any woman who can go six months without trying to change her boyfriend. The food and language aspects would have been discussed/changed long before the dinner party situation came up.
aldo, she says she loves him and wouldnt trade him for all her friends, well, that is what shes gonna have to do! obviously thats what he wants!
well two things are wrong here in my eyes.
1) if she is so into dining and social situations, what the heck is she doing with a guy who is not interested in that
2)i totally agree with queencru--he is exhibiting passive agressive behaviour to get what he wants, TRUST me on this one folks, it only gets worse and leads to ruin!
Dine alone honey---and do what YOU like in peace
I've been in relationships with people who grew up in bad family situations and thus lacked social graces but were very loving and wonderful in private. Some of the judgments here seem a little harsh to me and don't really answer the question.
However I disagree with Helena that you can't confront him about, say, gulping down your food. Why not? If he's your fiancee, why can't you teach him some...+READ
I've been in relationships with people who grew up in bad family situations and thus lacked social graces but were very loving and wonderful in private. Some of the judgments here seem a little harsh to me and don't really answer the question.
However I disagree with Helena that you can't confront him about, say, gulping down your food. Why not? If he's your fiancee, why can't you teach him some manners—gently but firmly?-COLLAPSE
You must have met him on Craig's List
It just sounds like the fiance is not a fan of the traditional/swank dinner affairs. He may be acting his worst there as a passive-aggressive way of saying he would rather be left home alone on a Friday night. Is the man such a social reject that he has none of his own friends to go out with on Friday nights? It just sounds like there are a lot more problems with the relationship than so-called...+READ
It just sounds like the fiance is not a fan of the traditional/swank dinner affairs. He may be acting his worst there as a passive-aggressive way of saying he would rather be left home alone on a Friday night. Is the man such a social reject that he has none of his own friends to go out with on Friday nights? It just sounds like there are a lot more problems with the relationship than so-called table manners.-COLLAPSE
Boyfriend of seven years, and engaged are a tipoff that neither person in this relationship has a clue!
i think you can try to "change" him. but at a certain point, you have to know where his limits are and just let him be. otherwise, you will be a nag. and then you'll get annoyed at him, embarrassed by him, etc. when really, he was fine to begin with. if it weren't for your friends, you wouldn't otherwise care. and that's not his fault.
If you're brought up in a house/community where table etiquette was a big deal, it sticks with you whether you want to or not. I grew up in a household where table etiquette was a Big Deal. My parents liked to dine out at fancy restaurants and go to dinner parties with their friends. None of their friends had kids so their was no baseline for acceptable "child behavior." I had to follow their...+READ
If you're brought up in a house/community where table etiquette was a big deal, it sticks with you whether you want to or not. I grew up in a household where table etiquette was a Big Deal. My parents liked to dine out at fancy restaurants and go to dinner parties with their friends. None of their friends had kids so their was no baseline for acceptable "child behavior." I had to follow their standards.
The etiquette was drummed into me so thoroughly that I still can't help but momentarily wince when there are elbows on the table or flatware in the "wrong" places. I can imagine the LW is in a similar spot.-COLLAPSE
I think the letter writter is just not a nice person and thats why she isnt invited. She is full of herself
Woof. This all sounds like a very rough road ahead in this marriage. I hope we don't end up watching the letter writer and her fiance on Bridezillas.
i wonder if the other people bring their boyfriends or girlfriends. if they dont that could be why the woman isnt invited anymore.