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Dear Helena,
I always pronounce the Vietnamese soup pho as “foe.” My friend says I’m being culturally insensitive and should make an effort to get it right (she says it’s “fuh”). But people always understand me, so what does it matter anyway? —Fuhgeddaboudit
Dear Fuhgeddaboudit,
Diane Cu, cocreator of the blog White on Rice Couple, says that Vietnamese words are tricky because Vietnamese is a tonal language, with “four or five” main tones and many more regional ones. Although the more common pronunciation of pho is “fuh,” some regions pronounce it more as “foe,” and others in two syllables, Cu says, with a rising tone on the first syllable and a falling tone on the second. Because of the tonal variation, Westerners also struggle with the phrase banh mi. Some erroneously pronounce it as “bang me,” Cu says. Unfortunately, since I couldn’t nail the pronunciation even after hearing it five times, I can’t explain it to you.
There are also regional variations in the pronunciation of Italian food words, says Judy Witts Francini, owner of Divina Cucina, a cooking school in Florence. One difference is that the last syllables of some words, such as mozzarella and braciole, are not pronounced in the south.
But you need not fret too much about regional nuances. The important thing is that you try. At an ethnic restaurant where the servers are from that country, it’s good manners to strive for authentic pronunciation of a foreign food word, as a sign of respect for the culture. If you’re worried about mangling the language and insulting the server, that’s what the numbers on the menu are there for. And you can always ask your server how to pronounce it—so when you return, you’ll be a pro.
That said, there is such a thing as going overboard. If you pronounce “spaghetti” with a flourish or “Croissan’Wich” with your best Parisian flair, then—as Chowhounds have pointed out—you’re going to sound laughably affected.
Typically, the foreign words you’re allowed to take Anglicized liberties with are the ones that wind up in English dictionaries. But what if you don’t have a dictionary on you when placing an order? Sometimes you can just use common sense. As Jesse Sheidlower, the Oxford English Dictionary’s North American editor at large, says, if it’s “on the menu at the Olive Garden,” then chances are it’s as good as white bread.
there is also a shop in Seattle WA called "What the Pho"
A favorite shop in Walla Walla, Washington is called "Pho Sho". Delicious, by any name.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/pho-sho-vietnamese-noodles-walla-walla
Being Vietnamese myself, I found it annoying as a kid when people would say "foe" but I've come to learn to not let it bother me. Heck, I can't even pronounce a crapload of other words in many different languages but I still try to make an effort. Bouillabaisse is one of those words. But when my friends asked how to pronounce Pho, I tell them its like saying Fu**, but say it a little more drawn...+READ
Being Vietnamese myself, I found it annoying as a kid when people would say "foe" but I've come to learn to not let it bother me. Heck, I can't even pronounce a crapload of other words in many different languages but I still try to make an effort. Bouillabaisse is one of those words. But when my friends asked how to pronounce Pho, I tell them its like saying Fu**, but say it a little more drawn out and stop your sentence before you knowingly get to the "-ck". And if you want to be even more precise, say it with a slightly higher pitch as you go from "p" to the "o"-COLLAPSE
I look hispanic, but I'm not. I don't speak a word of spanish. I do, however pride myself on proper pronunciation when ordering food. When I do this in a Mexican restaurant, the server or bartender will immediately begin speaking Spanish, assuming that I understand him/her. It's frustrating. I now go out of my way to sound as White as possible when ordering my barbacoa burrito from Chipotle.
I like to pronounce the word as it was originally meant to be so I say "Fuh"
But everytime I ask my friends, "hey you want to go for fuh" I always end up saying "foe cause no one gets what I'm saying.
@Jaymes: THANK you. I hate hearing "brushetta." Nope, nope, there is a C in there.
Fugghedaboutit's friend is a douche. What matters in a restaurant is that you can correctly communicate the desired dish to the waiter. Why the hell would the waiter think I'm being culturally insensitive when I'm ALREADY AT A VIETNAMESE RESTAURANT WANTING THEIR FOOD?
Another good example is "gyro." I used to try to order gyros as "eeero" but you know what, almost every time I do the person...+READ
Fugghedaboutit's friend is a douche. What matters in a restaurant is that you can correctly communicate the desired dish to the waiter. Why the hell would the waiter think I'm being culturally insensitive when I'm ALREADY AT A VIETNAMESE RESTAURANT WANTING THEIR FOOD?
Another good example is "gyro." I used to try to order gyros as "eeero" but you know what, almost every time I do the person comes back and says "you mean a jyro?"-COLLAPSE
Just to add to eatzalot's comment, it is also pronounced as if you were asking the question: "Fuh?"
As in, "Pho? Are you serious? Pho?"
Oakland also has a Pho King. San Jose has Pho Kim Long. Both serve excellent beef noodle soups . . . however you want to pronounce it.
A tempest in a teapot. The most important relevant facts are (1) It's not actually spelled "PHO," the vowel is a modified O character used in Vietnam. (2) It is the French word _feu,_ as Jaymes mentioned above, from _pot au feu,_ "pot on the fire," the traditional French Sunday dinner dish, adapted in Vietnam to local ingredients -- that's why, unlike almost every other Pacific-Asian broth, it's...+READ
A tempest in a teapot. The most important relevant facts are (1) It's not actually spelled "PHO," the vowel is a modified O character used in Vietnam. (2) It is the French word _feu,_ as Jaymes mentioned above, from _pot au feu,_ "pot on the fire," the traditional French Sunday dinner dish, adapted in Vietnam to local ingredients -- that's why, unlike almost every other Pacific-Asian broth, it's conspicuously based on simmered beef, not pork and/or poultry. (3) Most Vietnamese pronounce it roughly like the French _feu,_ which, as you know if you've heard it from a native, has a vowel sound not used in English (except maybe "fuhgeddaboudit" with a good nasal NY accent); "fuh" is the nearest phonetic English. I believe the most useful tutorial article would begin with these fundamentals, therefore clearing, rather than clouding, the picture (just like a good broth).
I'm near what in recent decades has been the largest expatriate Vietnamese population in the US and I checked with a reputable, Vietnamese-born food expert from there, who confirmed all of this emphatically. She added that many restaurants, especially chains, use shortcuts like MSG or commercial stock base, and therefore give a distorted impression of what "pho" is all about.-COLLAPSE
ABC has a sitcom called Modern Family where they had an amusing back and forth about the pronunciation of pho. The gay couple takes their child to an Asian pediatrician, and, during the consult, one of them asks the doctor "So... is it 'foe' or 'fuh?" (while the significant other cringes in embarrassment) and the doctor's like "What?" "You know, the soup." The doctor just shakes her head and says...+READ
ABC has a sitcom called Modern Family where they had an amusing back and forth about the pronunciation of pho. The gay couple takes their child to an Asian pediatrician, and, during the consult, one of them asks the doctor "So... is it 'foe' or 'fuh?" (while the significant other cringes in embarrassment) and the doctor's like "What?" "You know, the soup." The doctor just shakes her head and says "Look, I don't what you're talking about, I'm from Denver."
It's not exactly verbatim, but that was the gist of it. Kind of amusing. The moment I heard 'foe' and 'fuh,' I knew there was a screenwriter somewhere reading Chowhound.-COLLAPSE
Sorry to add to the confusion...I have a 2 Vietnamese friends (brothers) at work and they pronounce it with a p sound sounds like what a content cat does,purr.Sad to say not real sure what region they are from but I know their home area either used to be part of Cambodia and is now Vietnam or vise versa.I have known them for many years but there is still a bit of a lanquage barrier.I must admit...+READ
Sorry to add to the confusion...I have a 2 Vietnamese friends (brothers) at work and they pronounce it with a p sound sounds like what a content cat does,purr.Sad to say not real sure what region they are from but I know their home area either used to be part of Cambodia and is now Vietnam or vise versa.I have known them for many years but there is still a bit of a lanquage barrier.I must admit though they speak much better english than i do vietnamese with the sole exception being a number of off color phrases they have taught to me,lol.-COLLAPSE
different way of pronouncing some of their letters that are hard to duplicate if you are not brought up into it.
gutteral ch - k sounds that make it hard to duplicate no mattter how hard you aspirating is not always enough.
especially true for Hebrew, Polish, German and related languages.
Asian languages is a different story with the Lack of a W in Korean and the most well know example is the...+READ
different way of pronouncing some of their letters that are hard to duplicate if you are not brought up into it.
gutteral ch - k sounds that make it hard to duplicate no mattter how hard you aspirating is not always enough.
especially true for Hebrew, Polish, German and related languages.
Asian languages is a different story with the Lack of a W in Korean and the most well know example is the lack of the L in Japanese.
practice helps though and you can learn a lot in a short time.-COLLAPSE
Dear Helena,
How about a discussion of the proper way to say "bruschetta"?
I mean, we can get the hard Italian "ch" sound correct when we say Chianti. And Zuchinni.
Why is it impossible with bruschetta?
A food writer for a major newspaper once tried mightily to get readers of his pieces to pronounde "focaccia" as "foe-KICK-ya."
The real Italians I asked about this all wanted to kick HIM. "Fo-KAHTCH-a", please.
Vietnamese, just like Korean, Japanese and English has several regional dialects so there is more than one "correct" way to pronounce anything but the textbooks will have proper way listed that is used in the major cities at least in the central region.
Every language has variation between areas but at least one standard pronunciation that is considered "proper".
fuh is ok, but think pha going down in tone and ending on a higher tone. Down up.
It's like saying "fahgettaboutit" but without the "gettaboutit". Also, it almost has an inquisitive tone. It'd be more like saying fah? and not fah. If that makes any sense. Probably not.
On a recent trip to Quebec Canada, my wife and i had a hearty laugh when we eventually discovered the meaning of "soupe tonkinese".... a delightful Canadian avoidance of the above problem. Perhaps a better way for us would be to do to the Vietnamese what we have done to all other cultures in this melting pot that is America - call it something like "golden bowl soup"?
I'd like to pipe in about mispronounciation of the Chinese term Feng Shui. I think it's supposed to sound like fUng soy. Not fEnG shway but when people say fEng Shway - I still know what they mean.
I am not French nor Vietnamese nor a serious student of food history, so I'm just repeating what I was told the last time I was in Vietnam.
If it isn't correct, well, sorry.
I was told that the correct pronunciation, "fuh," is due to the fact that it originated during the days of "Indochine," when the French occupied Vietnam. "Fuh," actually comes from "pot au feu," and is correctly pronounced...+READ
I am not French nor Vietnamese nor a serious student of food history, so I'm just repeating what I was told the last time I was in Vietnam.
If it isn't correct, well, sorry.
I was told that the correct pronunciation, "fuh," is due to the fact that it originated during the days of "Indochine," when the French occupied Vietnam. "Fuh," actually comes from "pot au feu," and is correctly pronounced like the "feu" in the dish from whence it originally comes.-COLLAPSE
Eating pho is fun. Saying 'foe' is more fun that say 'fa' or the proper pronunciation.
we could keep this going with "Gyro" !
I went to my favorite pho restaurant and asked the owner how to say it. He said, "fahg" (like "fog").
I agree with waxyjax, I've never heard any relative or family friend pronounce pho anywhere close to sounding like "foe". That said, I personally prefer it when non-Vietnamese speaking people make attempts to pronounce it closer to what it sounds like which would be "fuh".
Also, just to point out, it's not really erroneous for banh mi to be pronounced "bang me". There are Vietnamese accents (the...+READ
I agree with waxyjax, I've never heard any relative or family friend pronounce pho anywhere close to sounding like "foe". That said, I personally prefer it when non-Vietnamese speaking people make attempts to pronounce it closer to what it sounds like which would be "fuh".
Also, just to point out, it's not really erroneous for banh mi to be pronounced "bang me". There are Vietnamese accents (the Northern accent) that pronounces it pretty closely to that. See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_phonology#Analysis_of_final_ch.2C_nh if you're interested in phonology.
To reiterate alot of people's general opinions on the topic though, it's just cool that people are enjoying different kinds of food.-COLLAPSE
When I go into my es-student's restaurant, if I ask for foe with tendon, or #17 or poe with rare beef he doesn't care - he is running a restaurant NOT teaching language.
lets concentrate on the important stuff - eating well!
My Vietnamese friends have told me that you should pronounce it as if you're asking a woman if her coat is made of fur or not: "Fur?"
But I've tried that and get very amused looks from Vietnamese waiters, who say "You mean pho?" (pronounced "foe")
So as the article says, wing it, try not to look like an insensitive clod, and you're fine.
And yes, Mahbret, some of us try to pronounce things the...+READ
My Vietnamese friends have told me that you should pronounce it as if you're asking a woman if her coat is made of fur or not: "Fur?"
But I've tried that and get very amused looks from Vietnamese waiters, who say "You mean pho?" (pronounced "foe")
So as the article says, wing it, try not to look like an insensitive clod, and you're fine.
And yes, Mahbret, some of us try to pronounce things the way they're supposed to be pronounced.-COLLAPSE
I think this is a really funny conversation! she says LOL. I live three blocks from the local boundary between the west and Asia. You cross the street and you could easily survive without any English ( or Spanish-- this is L. A) . There is every kind of Asian restaurant imaginable. The first Vietnamese one I went to was called My Dung. To a native English speaker this was very disconcerting. A...+READ
I think this is a really funny conversation! she says LOL. I live three blocks from the local boundary between the west and Asia. You cross the street and you could easily survive without any English ( or Spanish-- this is L. A) . There is every kind of Asian restaurant imaginable. The first Vietnamese one I went to was called My Dung. To a native English speaker this was very disconcerting. A few years later I found an article about that restaurant and learned that it was pronounced something like Me Zhuong. I think it's nice for people to try to use words of another language and to ask for help with how to pronounce them as close to correct as one can wrap one's tongue and teeth and in the case of Vietnamese, throat ( to try for those dipthongs!) around! I used to think it was insulting to be automatically given a fork in some restaurants where the natives are given chopsticks. Now I've decided it's to save face for the costumer who might not know how to use them. Though I do draw the line with the one waitress who asked me if we wanted Panda Express. We said, no we want what you eat. Most of the Asian restaurants I go to are frequented by people of the same Asian culture as the restaurant. Anyway, as far as I've heard Pho sounds like Fuh. That is according to the women who work at the nail salon I go to, who are all Vietnamese. They speak and it sounds like bells to me. As for the question of how to eat it without splashing all over the place is to pick a noodle with the chopsticks and then place it in a ceramic spoon. It still might splash a little, but much better than all over. I'm not sure if that is culturally correct, but it works. Have Pho--N!!!-COLLAPSE
In Bellevue, WA, there's a restaurant named "What the Pho!"
Maybe that will help you remember it.
Isn't a better question - How can I eat it without spraying noodles and broth over my shirt so I can go back to work without looking like I went through the pho-carwash? :)
Austin has a Pho King too. I suspect that it's intentional because they had a construction sign up for months that said "Pho King. Coming soon."
People worry about "insulting" the waiter because they don't speak the language of the cuisine? How absurdly pedantic and insecure.
BobB, you just made my day. Thank you.
"Culturally insensitive?" How shocking. Is your friend's name Nanny?
Dear Fuhgeddaboudit,
Your friend sounds about as fun to be around as a case of scabies.
i'm vietnamese-american and can't speak for others, but can honestly say that for me hearing pho pronounced like "foe" with a very american accent sounds a bit jarring--though far from offensive. i don't consider it insensitive--it just sounds kinda goofy.
i have never heard the word pronounced as "foe" by any vietnamese person--i most certainly don't doubt the research for the article, but am...+READ
i'm vietnamese-american and can't speak for others, but can honestly say that for me hearing pho pronounced like "foe" with a very american accent sounds a bit jarring--though far from offensive. i don't consider it insensitive--it just sounds kinda goofy.
i have never heard the word pronounced as "foe" by any vietnamese person--i most certainly don't doubt the research for the article, but am just making the point that the majority of vietnamese you'll likely encounter won't pronounce it that way. bearing this in mind, my personal recommendation would be to err on the "fuh" side.
it's true that without applying vietnamese tonality (and for some accents, dipthong) it's never going to sound 100% authentic, but going for "fuh" will not sound as funny "foe".
but that's just one vietnamese-american's opinion ;)-COLLAPSE
@Thirtyeyes-- I've seen this place, gotten the laugh, but is the Pho good?
As far as I know Pho is pronounced as "Fuh" or as I like to tell people "It's like the F word but without the K." I think that something that no one has pointed out is that when people here something mispronounced they don't always point out because they're trying to be polite. Trust me. I'm Vietnamese American with a Vietnamese name and sometimes when I hear it mispronounced I just let it go.
Agreed with miznic--who cares how you pronounce it. Slurp away and no one will understand you anyway!
BTW, a Vietnamese friend explained the pronunciation of bahn mi as "bah'n meh". Kind of a sharp emphasis at the end of the "ah" sound, as if there were a silent "d" there. The "meh" part, at least, is easy enough ... but I don't bother trying to pronounce it correctly anyway, since most bahn mi...+READ
Agreed with miznic--who cares how you pronounce it. Slurp away and no one will understand you anyway!
BTW, a Vietnamese friend explained the pronunciation of bahn mi as "bah'n meh". Kind of a sharp emphasis at the end of the "ah" sound, as if there were a silent "d" there. The "meh" part, at least, is easy enough ... but I don't bother trying to pronounce it correctly anyway, since most bahn mi places don't sell anything else and I can just ask for "one with BBQ pork and one with beef, both extra spicy" or something similar :-)-COLLAPSE
Then you have made a pho pas. ;-)
What if I eat all the broth and leave half the noodles behind?
It's rare to hear a native Vietnamese speaker pronounce "Pho" as "Foe", but it does happen.
There are some very distinct Vietnamese tones that are spoken in more rural, areas of Vietnam, where the diacritics are pronounced differently than the more commonly heard tones of the South, Central, and North.
In these rare cases, the rising diacritics don't necessarily take on a rising tone, but...+READ
It's rare to hear a native Vietnamese speaker pronounce "Pho" as "Foe", but it does happen.
There are some very distinct Vietnamese tones that are spoken in more rural, areas of Vietnam, where the diacritics are pronounced differently than the more commonly heard tones of the South, Central, and North.
In these rare cases, the rising diacritics don't necessarily take on a rising tone, but rather, a fluctuating tone with a lowering finish. Even the diacritic that looks a question mark "?" that rests on top of the "O" in "Pho" (called dau hoi ) can often be pronounced flat, resulting in a pronunciation as "foe".
How do I know this? Because I work with large staff of native Vietnamese speakers who come from all parts of Vietnam. Working and speaking Vietnamese with them has taught me that although there are there are common Viet tones, there are also some unique ones that exist as well.
I've learned never to say "never".
But really, I say, don't think about it too much, it's not worth arguing.
If you get close to the pronunciation, that's great. If you botch it, don't sweat it. Lord knows I botch the pronunciation of everything outside of my native languages.
Just the fact that a non-Viet chooses to walk into a Vietnamese restaurant and is excited to experience the food is the biggest honor and compliment to the Viet culture and community.
Like my elders tell me-- Don't worry about getting the perfect pronunciation, just slurp it, and eat it all. Enjoy Vietnamese food. You won't get a spanking for mis-pronunciation, but you will be a big smack for only eating the noodles and leaving all the pho broth behind.-COLLAPSE
psh. I say get the bowl of pho in front of you, stop worrying, and slurp.
Good reflections on regional nuance and cultural respect.
However, I believe the heart of the matter would answer the original question quickly, yet I don't see it mentioned. The word, basically, isn't pronounced "foe" because it isn't in fact spelled "pho." The last character actually is a modified O (Vietnamese greatly extends the Roman alphabet via accent or diacritical marks). It's a...+READ
Good reflections on regional nuance and cultural respect.
However, I believe the heart of the matter would answer the original question quickly, yet I don't see it mentioned. The word, basically, isn't pronounced "foe" because it isn't in fact spelled "pho." The last character actually is a modified O (Vietnamese greatly extends the Roman alphabet via accent or diacritical marks). It's a simple confusion, not a cultural insensitivity, and it's promoted by the difficulty of rendering the special character in most Western typefaces.
This certainly belongs in FAQ files, because the same question has surfaced for decades.-COLLAPSE
San Diego has a place called "Pho King". Endless amusement. The owner actually intended it to be kind of like "Burger King".
If I don't know how to pronounce it, I do the old menu point. Works every time.