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Foodies Fetishize Their Own
Dear Helena,
I was thinking today about the terrible situation of sharks, which as I’m sure you know are now an endangered species thanks to burgeoning demand from all the newly rich Chinese, and lack of government enforcement of their harvesting. I was wondering what I’d do if I was out to dinner with someone who ordered shark fin soup—what is the correct etiquette in this situation? To say nothing as someone right in front of you contributes to the demise of this species, or to speak up? —Ocean Lover
Dear Ocean Lover,
Consumption of shark fin soup is on the rise, but it’s still a pricey delicacy, so this particular dilemma won’t be one you encounter often. But these days, due to issues like overfishing, the inhumane treatment of farm animals, and fossil-fuel-intensive industrial agriculture, many foods are ethically suspect. So whether it’s shark fin soup, foie gras, or just out-of-season strawberries jetted in from New Zealand, what should you do if a friend orders a dish you despise?
Chowhounds are divided on how best to educate others about food politics, but most agree on one thing: No lecturing at the dinner table. It’s especially irksome to your companions if you launch into a tirade right before ordering, a time when blood sugar is low and tempers can flare. Even if you persuade your friend to switch his order this time, he’s unlikely to forgo shark fin soup for good.
A more subtle approach is to pretend you want the same thing, and then ask the waiter for information, says Polly Legendre, culinary director of CleanFish, a broker of sustainable seafood. When your friend says, “Oh, the salmon teriyaki looks good,” simply agree, and then ask the waiter whether the fish is farmed or wild. If the waiter doesn’t know, or says it’s farmed (or whatever the equivalent ecologically incorrect answer is for the food in question), you can change your order. That way you draw attention to the issue subtly, without directly admonishing anybody.
If your friend doesn’t take the hint, just let him enjoy his politically incorrect dish. After all, at this point, the damage is done. As Alison Barratt, associate public relations manager at the Monterey Bay Aquarium in Northern California, says, “It would be different if you were standing by in a fishing boat while they were killing it.”
If you really want to address the topic with your friend, do so at a later date. As when discussing any sticky subject, it helps to use “I” statements. Isa Chandra Moskowitz, a vegan cookbook author, says this is the approach she’s found most effective when trying to convert her nonvegan friends, as in, “I used to eat meat too, but then I found out this, this, and this.” It works much better, she says, than “forcing them to watch video footage.”
Ultimately, however, people will make their own decisions about what to eat and what not to eat, and they will give you cues as to how open they are to change. The best practice is to answer questions they might have when they see you leading by example.
If anyone thinks they are going to change the world--in even the tinest way--by what they eat, then they are prime candidates for Florida property and bridges in Manhattan (that go to Brooklyn especially). If anyone ever mentioned suffering animals after I order a steak (which I only do once or twice a year, to tell the truth), I'm sure I'd call the waiter back and say, "Gimme two of what I just...+READ
If anyone thinks they are going to change the world--in even the tinest way--by what they eat, then they are prime candidates for Florida property and bridges in Manhattan (that go to Brooklyn especially). If anyone ever mentioned suffering animals after I order a steak (which I only do once or twice a year, to tell the truth), I'm sure I'd call the waiter back and say, "Gimme two of what I just ordered." Generally, as I mentioned, I don't eat much meat, but when I meat an outspoken vegetarian (or even an inspoken one) I always vow to eat a little more meat that week to make up for it. And I do wonder why they don't feel sorry for the poor plants.-COLLAPSE
I hope this "column" gets replaced with someone worth reading soon.
Man, lot's of vitriol on this topic. As for me, I'd probably eat kittens and puppies if it tasted good and was available...But I'd have an "organic", locally grown salad with it, and I'd ride my bicycle to the solar-powered restaurant to keep my carbon-footprint low.
"Salad is murder."
"Squash: It's what's rotting in your colon."
And other quotes from the Vegetable Liberation Front
I find the term "dittohead" to be very offensive. Please take it back.
That should read,
I did, and you deleted that post.
Id, and you deleted that post.
Regarding deleted posts, we're a moderated site, and we do remove content that's critical of other posters or verges on personal attacks. If you'd like to discuss this, we'd ask that you take it to our CHOW Feedback board rather than dragging this thread off-topic.
Best,
Deborah at CHOW
I've dined with many more obnoxious defensive self-righteous carnivores who use phrases like "rabbit food", than holier-than-thou self-righteous vegans who make comments about my lamb chops. So, I have no problem with the occasional informational session from the vegans.
They don't like posts that assert any facts about commercial agriculture.
I have no problem with them selling advertizing, but a couple of back and forth posts that I did not think even bent the rules seem to have disappeared.
dinwiddie:
There's usually little point in trying to discuss anything serious on this site. It only exists to help CBS sell advertising to foodies.
Me thinks some of the response to this topic have disappeared.
As a Vegetable Rights Activist, I appreciate not being lectured at over my dining choices. Of course, living with a near-vegetarian, I always have someone to finish off the leftovers.
I do carry the little tri-fold "safe fish" card from the Monterrey Bay Aquarium in my purse - it's handed out on the Oregon Coast also - but rarely refer to it, as I'm not fond of cooked fish.
You know how a lot of vegetarian restaurants insist on making disgusting faux-meat creations?
I want to start an all-meat restaurant where all "vegetables" will be formed from meat. First up, shark-fin french fries!
saacnmama, I'm glad you agree. I am an unapologetic carnivore, but respect the dietary wishs of others. Everyone has to make their own decision as to how and they will live their life. I also admire someone who decides that they want to be a vegetarian for ethical reasons, and stick to their principles by doing so. More power to them, and I am always glad and careful to try to respect their...+READ
saacnmama, I'm glad you agree. I am an unapologetic carnivore, but respect the dietary wishs of others. Everyone has to make their own decision as to how and they will live their life. I also admire someone who decides that they want to be a vegetarian for ethical reasons, and stick to their principles by doing so. More power to them, and I am always glad and careful to try to respect their dietary restrictions when we eat together. Trying to sneak in some meat into their meal is childish and petty.
Additionally, I find people who harangue others over their dietary choices to be boorish. It is no more acceptable to harangue someone because they are a vegetarian than it is to harangue someone because they keep Kosher. (and I have relatives who keep Kosher, which means that I am extremely careful about how we deal with food when they are at our house, paper plates, carry out from the local Kosher restaurant, etc.) On the other hand, I find it offensive when someone is militantly vegetarian and decides to harangue me because I like steak, or foie gras, etc. To them I simply respond, if God didn't want me to be a carnivore, he wouldn't have given me canine teeth. I know it is a flip comment, but I don't feel that they deserve any more respect than that if they can't respect my right to make my own choices.
Recently I attended my niece's wedding, a pot luck vegetarian meal for 250 and enjoyed it greatly. Everyone had a good time, and even those of us who are avowed carnivores agreed that the food was delicious.-COLLAPSE
dinwiddie, while I agree it's important to support the type of restaurants you describe, other economic impacts are important too. By supporting (ordering) foods typically sourced in more sustainable ways (otherwise known as increasing the demand) in a restaurant not run for the sake of ethics, you encourage the restaurant to supply more.
I haven't done a broad, scientific survey to find out...+READ
dinwiddie, while I agree it's important to support the type of restaurants you describe, other economic impacts are important too. By supporting (ordering) foods typically sourced in more sustainable ways (otherwise known as increasing the demand) in a restaurant not run for the sake of ethics, you encourage the restaurant to supply more.
I haven't done a broad, scientific survey to find out who harangues more, veg or carnivores, but I know I have been asked why I'm a vegetarian, told that I'm "inspirational" or present "a challenge to live according to [the speaker's] own principles" quite a few times. The questions are getting a bit embarrassing--while I'm aware of the problems of the Blue Revolution, my original decision to go veg (and keep eating fish for a long while) was based on "Diet for a Small Planet" and other aged tomes. I need to update my knowledge, I know. Right now my strongest reason for avoiding meat, in all honesty, is habit, 23 yrs in the making. On the other side, my brotherin law mooed at me at holiday meals for several years--even though I made no attempt to change anyone else's habit, and still snuck some Yorkshire pudding onto my plate.
NICOLE FRIEDMANN--daughter of Rich and Shari, once of Oxford Ohio? Is that you?-COLLAPSE
Mandalay, I couldn't agree more about the soy faux foods. If I wanted to eat a burger, I would. I eat things that are fresh and flavorful--and not masquarading as something else.
If the writer (real or made up) feels that strongly about the issue, they should be sure to patronize restaurants that use sustainable methods, dont serve fish that are being depleted, don't serve "politically incorrect" food, etc. Otherwise, your personal dietary views are your personal views, and should remain that, personal.
For every bowl of shark fin soup you don't order, I will order three.
This turned into a vegetarian vs carnivore debate, because that IS a hot topic, and falls into the area of debate concerning self-righteousness, just as eating "politicall incorrect" food does. The more sensible among us here have pointed out that not ALL sharks are endangered; not all vegetarians are self-righteous; and commenting about what someone is eating or ordering in a restaurant while...+READ
This turned into a vegetarian vs carnivore debate, because that IS a hot topic, and falls into the area of debate concerning self-righteousness, just as eating "politicall incorrect" food does. The more sensible among us here have pointed out that not ALL sharks are endangered; not all vegetarians are self-righteous; and commenting about what someone is eating or ordering in a restaurant while they are doing so is rude. Unless you are with (or part of) a group that enjoys a spirited debate like this, please keep your opinions to your self. STFU and eat YOUR food.-COLLAPSE
Howza 'bout choosing a restaurant with the diners in mind? If I'm going out to eat with my vegetarian friends, we go to an Indian or veg restaurant. If I'm going out to eat with my friends who have celiac disease we're sure as hell not going to an Italian restaurant. The act of eating together is about connection and commonality, not pedagogy. If shark's fin soup offends thee (and it should)...+READ
Howza 'bout choosing a restaurant with the diners in mind? If I'm going out to eat with my vegetarian friends, we go to an Indian or veg restaurant. If I'm going out to eat with my friends who have celiac disease we're sure as hell not going to an Italian restaurant. The act of eating together is about connection and commonality, not pedagogy. If shark's fin soup offends thee (and it should) choose a different restaurant with a different cuisine.-COLLAPSE
"Let's not order the shark/veal/shrooms, I just read an article/heard on NPR/saw a special on CNN about the way the shark/veal/shrooms are caught/raised/farmed and I don't think I can stomach it."
Talk about passive aggressive. Why do *you* get to decide what we will ant won't order?
I don't get why this is an issue. I am either eating out with close friends, in which case we will either all...+READ
"Let's not order the shark/veal/shrooms, I just read an article/heard on NPR/saw a special on CNN about the way the shark/veal/shrooms are caught/raised/farmed and I don't think I can stomach it."
Talk about passive aggressive. Why do *you* get to decide what we will ant won't order?
I don't get why this is an issue. I am either eating out with close friends, in which case we will either all argue passionately pro or con on the object of shark fins or whatever, or I am eating out with people that I don't know as well, like a work situation. I would never dream of foisting my opinion about something so touchy to someone I didn't know extremely well. And if a casual friend tried to guide my choices with something as ham-fisted as the above idea, I would order the shark fin soup just to be annoying.-COLLAPSE
How DID this turn into a vegetarian vs. omnivore debate in the first place? How many vegan/vegetarians order FISH in a restaurant in the first place? I know, I know, two of my best friends are this kind of vegetarian - but still. When I WAS a vegetarian, which I was for twenty years, I wouldn't have ordered it and neither would most of my vegie friends.
Having said that, keep in mind that if...+READ
How DID this turn into a vegetarian vs. omnivore debate in the first place? How many vegan/vegetarians order FISH in a restaurant in the first place? I know, I know, two of my best friends are this kind of vegetarian - but still. When I WAS a vegetarian, which I was for twenty years, I wouldn't have ordered it and neither would most of my vegie friends.
Having said that, keep in mind that if you're posting here you probably have stronger interest in food and food news than the average person. Not everyone is aware of the specifics of the current overfishing crisis. I had a table of friends politely freak out at me back in the late seventies when I ordered turtle soup at a restaurant in Puerto Vallarta and while I was certainly a little embarrassed at first I was glad they did, because I honestly had not known they were being overfished. I guess the key word here is POLITELY - yes, Virginia, it IS possible to converse without lecturing. I mean, these are friends of yours, right? If they love eating fish, then they will be much more strongly motivated than a vegetarian to make sure their favorite fishes aren't hunted to extinction.
In any case it seems to be placing the onus on the wrong party. Really it would be more important to have this converation with the restaurant manager. They aren't going to know this is important to their customer unless their customers tell them.-COLLAPSE
Vorpal: Maybe I'm reading too much into comments, but the consensus does seem to be "I don't want to hear about your ethical concerns." Again, I'm with you that these things shouldn't be said at the dinner table, and that no one should badger others about their views, but I do think there's room for discussing that stuff in a non-confrontational way.
I've had lots of people ask me about being...+READ
Vorpal: Maybe I'm reading too much into comments, but the consensus does seem to be "I don't want to hear about your ethical concerns." Again, I'm with you that these things shouldn't be said at the dinner table, and that no one should badger others about their views, but I do think there's room for discussing that stuff in a non-confrontational way.
I've had lots of people ask me about being veg while at dinner. Some people do it in an earnest, interested way; others do it so they can lecture me about my choice and how smug I must be. Obviously, the latter isn't pleasant, but I have absolutely no problem with the former.-COLLAPSE
Laura: I believe that it generally used to be quite deplorable, and now probably still is in some cases. The calves were kept, if I recall correctly, in dark crates elevated above the ground (superstition indicated that the meat would taste better this way) and were fed only milk with iron removed from it (thus resulting in the creamy white / grey flesh). You can imagine the physical and...+READ
Laura: I believe that it generally used to be quite deplorable, and now probably still is in some cases. The calves were kept, if I recall correctly, in dark crates elevated above the ground (superstition indicated that the meat would taste better this way) and were fed only milk with iron removed from it (thus resulting in the creamy white / grey flesh). You can imagine the physical and psychological impact that this had on the calves.
These days, I believe most veal is grain fed and while they are probably still prohibited from excess movement, they are no longer locked up in the dark.-COLLAPSE
Some people real righteous lecturing about veal.
Are the living conditions of cows/veal treated any worse than chickens/poulty in pens?
Actually, jscrow, the fin iteself by the time its added to the soup is practically tasteless; like a lot of the really expensive foods in Chinese cusine its more for the texture, medicinal properties and lest face it, status due to expense that is so popular. the soub is deliecios but the things that makes it so are the things like the chicken ham, black musrooms etc, not the fin itself. That's...+READ
Actually, jscrow, the fin iteself by the time its added to the soup is practically tasteless; like a lot of the really expensive foods in Chinese cusine its more for the texture, medicinal properties and lest face it, status due to expense that is so popular. the soub is deliecios but the things that makes it so are the things like the chicken ham, black musrooms etc, not the fin itself. That's why it's possible for people in places like hing knog to get away with selling fake fins made of karya gum (a vegetable substance similar to gum arabic); the fins have next to not taste to themseves so if you can mock the gooeyness, you can fool a lot of diners.-COLLAPSE
Flinging around the term "politically correct" proves nothing; it is no more than an imputation of insincere motives, i.e. "You're just saying that because it's the orthodoxy." Far more effective to address the actual issues.
Haranguing people at the dinner table? Rude. If you think it is your job to educate people in social situations, people probably think you are a bore. And it doesn't...+READ
Flinging around the term "politically correct" proves nothing; it is no more than an imputation of insincere motives, i.e. "You're just saying that because it's the orthodoxy." Far more effective to address the actual issues.
Haranguing people at the dinner table? Rude. If you think it is your job to educate people in social situations, people probably think you are a bore. And it doesn't work; it makes people defensive. Again, debate the issues. If your friends can't tolerate debate maybe you don't want to be friends with them. Or maybe peace is important enough for you to go along. But criticizing people's choices while you are at the table is not going to start a useful debate most of the time.-COLLAPSE
Would not ordering or eating the shark fin soup have saved any sharks? No. So order up and enjoy, from what I hear the stuff is delicious.
Conversation at a local meat market -
Me: Do you have ground veal?
Them: No. We don't support an industry that abuses animals like that.
Me: You know, there actually many sources to humanely raised veal calves these days.
Them: ....I know. But we still can't sell it...
You know what? I was annoyed that I couldn't get the veal. I was annoyed because it was other people's perceptions of the veal...+READ
Conversation at a local meat market -
Me: Do you have ground veal?
Them: No. We don't support an industry that abuses animals like that.
Me: You know, there actually many sources to humanely raised veal calves these days.
Them: ....I know. But we still can't sell it...
You know what? I was annoyed that I couldn't get the veal. I was annoyed because it was other people's perceptions of the veal industry preventing me from getting it. BUT I was also happy that changes have been made by some in the industry which now allows me to buy humanely raised veal.
It's gotta happen somehow and it's gotta start somewhere.
No lectures at the dinner table please but I still want to know where my fish comes from and it it's wild caught or not. And that involves both ethical AND chow standards.-COLLAPSE
There is a perfectly good time to impose your morals on other at the dinner table -- when YOU would violate YOUR morals by eating whatever is proffered by your dining partner.
If you're asked to partake in part of an offending dish, a simple "No thank you, I try not to eat shark/veal/mushrooms because of the way the shark/baby cow/shroom is caught/raised/farmed." Usually, a dining partner who...+READ
There is a perfectly good time to impose your morals on other at the dinner table -- when YOU would violate YOUR morals by eating whatever is proffered by your dining partner.
If you're asked to partake in part of an offending dish, a simple "No thank you, I try not to eat shark/veal/mushrooms because of the way the shark/baby cow/shroom is caught/raised/farmed." Usually, a dining partner who wants more information about the immoral that is their plate will ask "Really? Why?" then, of course, you may enlighten, not lecture.
If you habitually dine with the same person and they have a penchant for the immoral shark/veal/mushroom, when you see the item on the menu, pre-empt with "Let's not order the shark/veal/shrooms, I just read an article/heard on NPR/saw a special on CNN about the way the shark/veal/shrooms are caught/raised/farmed and I don't think I can stomach it." and leave it at that.
There's no reason to lecture, belittle or harangue a dinner partner, unless you don't want to be their dinner partner for much longer!-COLLAPSE
Those who criticize their dining partners about what they choose to order due to politics or any reason for that matter often risk having their own table manners criticized. For example, there are people who will use the critic's own harangues as an opportunity to nag the critic about the critic's personal issues.
Years ago, I dated a girl who insisted on lecturing me about the follies of...+READ
Those who criticize their dining partners about what they choose to order due to politics or any reason for that matter often risk having their own table manners criticized. For example, there are people who will use the critic's own harangues as an opportunity to nag the critic about the critic's personal issues.
Years ago, I dated a girl who insisted on lecturing me about the follies of eating meat. She happened to smoke and was a heavy drinker. So I made her lectures an opportunity to nag her about her smoking and drinking. Alas, she did not get the habit and we eventually quit seeing each other.-COLLAPSE
Nicole, here are the facts:
About 100 million sharks per year are killed for shark fin soup. Some species of sharks are on the endangered species list because of the delicacy.
The actual process called "finning" is pretty terrible. As I said above, they cut the sharks fins off and then throw it back in the water, still alive. Since it can't swim, it can't breathe or defend itself. It drowns a...+READ
Nicole, here are the facts:
About 100 million sharks per year are killed for shark fin soup. Some species of sharks are on the endangered species list because of the delicacy.
The actual process called "finning" is pretty terrible. As I said above, they cut the sharks fins off and then throw it back in the water, still alive. Since it can't swim, it can't breathe or defend itself. It drowns a slow death or is attacked by other predatory animals. Wiping out tons of sharks disrupts the entire ocean's ecosystem.
So, looking at the facts, how are people only reacting emotionally?
For the record, I'm never okay with lecturing people on their choices, I just think it's a bigger issue than people may know.-COLLAPSE
What I find sad is that people are prone to react emotionally to issues like this rather than look at the facts. As two posters already stated, not all shark species are endangered! I do not mind having a discussion on food ethics with someone who is willing to look at the issue rationally. Feel free to ask me questions, even when I order something. I think we all can be too sensitive at times....+READ
What I find sad is that people are prone to react emotionally to issues like this rather than look at the facts. As two posters already stated, not all shark species are endangered! I do not mind having a discussion on food ethics with someone who is willing to look at the issue rationally. Feel free to ask me questions, even when I order something. I think we all can be too sensitive at times. Just be rational- that's all I ask!-COLLAPSE
I actually had one friedn try to lecture me that, given the number of people going hungry in the world and the impending food crises, not to mention obesity, actually caring about what I ate (in the sense of caring about how it tastes) was unconscionable, one should simply focus on providing you body with the minimum nutrients it needs to keep functiong and if it is bland of better yet tastes...+READ
I actually had one friedn try to lecture me that, given the number of people going hungry in the world and the impending food crises, not to mention obesity, actually caring about what I ate (in the sense of caring about how it tastes) was unconscionable, one should simply focus on providing you body with the minimum nutrients it needs to keep functiong and if it is bland of better yet tastes terrible, so much the better, at least you won't be tempted to overeat.-COLLAPSE
I agree with every poster that said "STFU". Questioning what I choose to eat is out of line, no matter what the situation. Here's an even better example -- if I order dessert and one of my fellow diners starts lecturing me on fattening foods, heart disease, obesity, cholesterol, diabetes, you name it... Guess what, I'll probably want to throw a pie in that moron's face. Or a fist.
As with most issues of manners and ethics, there's no simple answer. At dim sum recently with a friend, shortly after glancing at the menu, he stated, "I never order shark fin soup." Others at the table were welcome to follow up and ask why, add their own $0.02, or let it drop. We have an open and honest friendship, so this type of comment isn't out of line--but certainly in the company of...+READ
As with most issues of manners and ethics, there's no simple answer. At dim sum recently with a friend, shortly after glancing at the menu, he stated, "I never order shark fin soup." Others at the table were welcome to follow up and ask why, add their own $0.02, or let it drop. We have an open and honest friendship, so this type of comment isn't out of line--but certainly in the company of friends with whom you are less close or new acquaintances, I think it would be out of line.-COLLAPSE
Tatamagouche, word up. I agree with everything you said, and with what other posters have said about the flinging about of hostile acronyms. Civility and open dialogue are good, no? Meat eater, vegetarian, vegan, locavore and pizzavore...my friends run the gamut and generally they are all respectful of others' choices and opinions. If you can't talk about important issues without getting hostile,...+READ
Tatamagouche, word up. I agree with everything you said, and with what other posters have said about the flinging about of hostile acronyms. Civility and open dialogue are good, no? Meat eater, vegetarian, vegan, locavore and pizzavore...my friends run the gamut and generally they are all respectful of others' choices and opinions. If you can't talk about important issues without getting hostile, that's too bad-- and kindof sad.
The original question was "Is it appropriate to speak up?" (not, "What's the best way to harangue my fellow diners") It's a good question and I thought Helena's advice was on the mark. Basically, she said, no, except maybe you can kindof hint in subtle ways.
I think this works b/c the other person can either ignore it or, if they are genuinely interested, pick up the conversation. Maybe they care about the ethical implications of how they spend their money, maybe they don't. I wouldn't presume to know either way, and I think the asking the waiter trick is a good subtle way to introduce the topic without addressing it directly. And then if they don't pick it up, keep your thoughts to yourself.-COLLAPSE
To the 'question issuer':
I have to say, if someone said something like this to me in a restaurant, they would be lucky if I didn't drag them outside have words. It's one thing to have your political opinion, but attempting to humiliate someone in a restaurant because you heard ONE SPECIES of shark is endangered by chinese overeating, is not only pompous, it's offensive in the extreme.
...+READ
To the 'question issuer':
I have to say, if someone said something like this to me in a restaurant, they would be lucky if I didn't drag them outside have words. It's one thing to have your political opinion, but attempting to humiliate someone in a restaurant because you heard ONE SPECIES of shark is endangered by chinese overeating, is not only pompous, it's offensive in the extreme.
Reality Check:
The sharks we eat here are not the sharks they eat in china, australia or greenland for that matter.
To the author:
As to the recommended method of education, I consider it to be abusive to the waitstaff and passive aggressive on the whole. If you want to say something, come out and say it. What you are saying is this:
"OH NO, I don't want *thaaaaaat*, it's simply not politically correct, and really dear waiter, you should know better! For shame!"
It's also an extremely good way to end up with spit in your food at even the finest establishments. They see through your ploys as well as anyone.
I was discussing the issue of basa fish with my partner the other day and speaking on how the thai government was being both anti-competitive and ecologically unfriendly in their method of procurement and distribution. I told her outright when she came home that I had reservations about buying it even though it was cheap and delicious. I realize it might make her feel shitty, but I also explained there was no way she could have known, I do love the type of fish and we were certainly going to eat it.
Summary: Discretion is the better part of not being boorish. Some things are better left unsaid.-COLLAPSE
The fact that we're carnivores doesn't mean we can't use our brains and make ethical choices.
Agreed that there are appropriate and inappropriate places for discussing those choices.
I'm so tired of everyone calling everyone Nazis though. Talk about inappropriate.
gee phurstluv....tell us how you REALLY feel. ..
anyway, while I agree that there is no reason why two friends can't discuss a current issue like this, a launch of said topic should not take place at the dinner table after this friend has just ordered the item. The dinner table is no place for "converting" anyone, in any regard. I'm a veg and I don't care what anyone else eats, and vice versa.
...+READ
gee phurstluv....tell us how you REALLY feel. ..
anyway, while I agree that there is no reason why two friends can't discuss a current issue like this, a launch of said topic should not take place at the dinner table after this friend has just ordered the item. The dinner table is no place for "converting" anyone, in any regard. I'm a veg and I don't care what anyone else eats, and vice versa.
Don't even get me started on this: "As when discussing any sticky subject, it helps to use “I” statements. Isa Chandra Moskowitz, a vegan cookbook author, says this is the approach she’s found most effective when trying to convert her nonvegan friends"
Who the heck sets out to "convert" their friends ? Are these the same people who break out the Amway products or scientology texts when their buddies come over ? You're a friend, not a salesman.
BTW it has to be said, same goes for those who look down their friends for their "uneducated" wine choices or love of a fast food burger. Glass houses....
A little more live and let live (which is not the same thing as turning a blind eye)....can go a long way here.-COLLAPSE
Totally agree, the food nazi should STFU. We are carnivores for a reason, b/c that is the healthy diet for humans, don't get me started on the neo-nazi Vegans who eat only processed foods. It's all so ridiculous. If is soooo bothers you, like when I sit next to you and order a veal chop medium rare, then go out and volunteer at your local animal shelter or help that old hag that's hoarding 100...+READ
Totally agree, the food nazi should STFU. We are carnivores for a reason, b/c that is the healthy diet for humans, don't get me started on the neo-nazi Vegans who eat only processed foods. It's all so ridiculous. If is soooo bothers you, like when I sit next to you and order a veal chop medium rare, then go out and volunteer at your local animal shelter or help that old hag that's hoarding 100 cats, but leave my food alone. If you're truly worried about the shark population, study marine science and volunteer on a fishing boat for a summer or two in China, then come back and report about the poor widdle fishies.-COLLAPSE
Azizeh: Your comment had me in stitches! Thanks for a good laugh to brighten my day!
Piccola: I'm not sure where you got the notion that there should be no discussion about "ethical eating"; I didn't imply that, and I didn't get the impression that many other posters did, either.
Perhaps some of us are defensive for a reason, though: e.g. past experiences. Frankly, I must confess that the vast...+READ
Azizeh: Your comment had me in stitches! Thanks for a good laugh to brighten my day!
Piccola: I'm not sure where you got the notion that there should be no discussion about "ethical eating"; I didn't imply that, and I didn't get the impression that many other posters did, either.
Perhaps some of us are defensive for a reason, though: e.g. past experiences. Frankly, I must confess that the vast majority of my experiences with people with different "food morality" than myself have been fine and sometimes even quite interesting and enlightening (thus we have had ethical eating discussions, and very enjoyable ones at that), but I have had some negative encounters as well; I honestly don't feel at all inclined to sit around listening to someone try to guilt trip me into adopting their viewpoint. Yes, such a person should STFU, in my opinion. I don't want to hear it. I have reasons for my decisions but I don't feel the need to justify my food choices to another person. It's none of their business and I'd rather enjoy the food than sit around explaining why I feel that I have the right to enjoy it.-COLLAPSE
I agree there should be no ethics talk at the table. But I don't see why friends can't discuss -- discuss, not lecture about -- ethical eating in another setting. What if your friend doesn't know some fish isn't sustainably farmed?
People here are too quick to shout STFU. Sounds like you're all a little defensive. If you were comfortable with your decisions, you wouldn't mind explaining them.
Whoa, when did Dittoheads hijack this topic?
The 'letter' did address consumption of endangered species.
Confusingly, many above posters brought in the red herring of vegetarian/vegan eating preferences.
Not Eating endangered species and collapsing more of the worlds food chains is a good thing in the long run; it is common sense, not political correctness. Ironically Gloriousfood's remark...+READ
Whoa, when did Dittoheads hijack this topic?
The 'letter' did address consumption of endangered species.
Confusingly, many above posters brought in the red herring of vegetarian/vegan eating preferences.
Not Eating endangered species and collapsing more of the worlds food chains is a good thing in the long run; it is common sense, not political correctness. Ironically Gloriousfood's remark about 'eliminating' human beings is getting close to the root cause - we rapidly are breeding ourselves into lower standards of living. Enviro slogans like 'think global, act local' won't mitigate the insatiable demands of exploding human population.
Eat meat or not, just think more about the consequences, GTFU.
Soylent Green, anyone?
Oh, and thank you for stopping at two kids.-COLLAPSE
Personally, the only ethical boundary I place on food: no humans. Other than that, all discrepancy is just a matter of personal taste and cultural differences. People who are apt to cause an argument over another person's diet are also apt to cause arguments elsewhere, and I tend to avoid such imposing buffoons. Preference is inherently relative, and the only person's preferences we should be...+READ
Personally, the only ethical boundary I place on food: no humans. Other than that, all discrepancy is just a matter of personal taste and cultural differences. People who are apt to cause an argument over another person's diet are also apt to cause arguments elsewhere, and I tend to avoid such imposing buffoons. Preference is inherently relative, and the only person's preferences we should be concerned with are our own.
I tend to sympathize with vegetarians who are constantly pestered with questions and accusations from meat-eaters. I've seen vegetarians hassled by meat-eaters more than the reverse; but that's not to say there aren't any self-righteous vegetarians out there. If you choose to be a vegetarian: good for you. If you choose to be a meat-eater: good for you. I don't really give a shit about what you eat—it's a topic in which I hold zero interest.-COLLAPSE
I love how Helena has the fake letter writer say that sharks is one species. There are roughly 400 species of shark - some are endangered, some are not.
Proselytizing in any form on any topic is tiring. My standard response to anyone who tries to "educate me" is "How about if we all just eliminate the human species altogether, since WE are the cause of many of today's problems?"
"Waiter, do they cut the fins off the living sharks and then throw them back into the water to drown a terrible death? Oh, they do? Okay, I'll have the tuna instead."
If anyone has "political issues" - for any reason, of any kind, no matter what - with a dining companion's choice of foods from the menu, then they should be with another companion, in another restaurant, and thinking other thoughts.
My response to such a rude, pompous, and self-centered blowhard wouldn't merely be "STFU," it would "FU, get away from my table."
Do you realize how many Rice Crispys had to be killed to make my breakfast?
I think the issue here is one of manners, but also respect. Would I have issues if you ordered shark-fin soup? Yes. Would I say anything about it? No.
I'd expect the same from you, whether I ordered foie gras or the Tofurkey Surprise.
I was vegetarian for many years, and I've heard plenty of proselytizing from my fellow vegetarians and from meat-eaters alike. Both are annoying -- as much as the fakey approach suggested here.
"How is it raised? Oh, I'll have the basa instead." Cue eye roll. If I wanted to eat with my best friend's wife -- queen of aggressively passive aggression, who does this kind of thing all the time --...+READ
I was vegetarian for many years, and I've heard plenty of proselytizing from my fellow vegetarians and from meat-eaters alike. Both are annoying -- as much as the fakey approach suggested here.
"How is it raised? Oh, I'll have the basa instead." Cue eye roll. If I wanted to eat with my best friend's wife -- queen of aggressively passive aggression, who does this kind of thing all the time -- I'd call her up and ask her to dinner. I'd rather dine with friends who don't judge and comment on the moral turpitude of my every move.-COLLAPSE
Vegetarians and vegans who do so due to "international socio-economic impacts of raising meat" should read "The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Keith. Keith was a vegan for twenty years for much the same reasons and it ended up ruining her health. Yes, factory-farmed meat is gross but so are all the fake soy products. Bottom line--unless you're growing your own food or know who does,...+READ
Vegetarians and vegans who do so due to "international socio-economic impacts of raising meat" should read "The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Keith. Keith was a vegan for twenty years for much the same reasons and it ended up ruining her health. Yes, factory-farmed meat is gross but so are all the fake soy products. Bottom line--unless you're growing your own food or know who does, vegetarians/vegans are just as guilty of screwing up the earth as meat-eaters.
/hops off soapbox
And while I have never made comments to vegetarians about what they order I sure have had them comment to me. STFU, indeed.-COLLAPSE
I don't think anyone here (except for the character Helena made up) is calling for righteous indignation. Meat-eaters, if you don't like my order, stfu.
I agree with vorpal. STFUs are in order all around. A chorus of righteous indignation does nothing but ruin an otherwise pleasant bowl of shark fin or terrapin soup. Truly tasteless. Like arguing in a hospital room over a dying relative.
Why would one eat at an establishment that served Shark-fin soup on the menu? Seems to me you're barking up the wrong tree.
Another made up letter. I usually don't mind Helena's inventing situations to fit around common dilemmas, but making up a dilemma that doesn't exist is another matter entirely. Honestly, of the vegetarians you know, how many try proselytize? And of the carnivores/omnivores you know, how many try to push vegetarians into eating meat? I bet the percentage in the latter group is MUCH higher. People...+READ
Another made up letter. I usually don't mind Helena's inventing situations to fit around common dilemmas, but making up a dilemma that doesn't exist is another matter entirely. Honestly, of the vegetarians you know, how many try proselytize? And of the carnivores/omnivores you know, how many try to push vegetarians into eating meat? I bet the percentage in the latter group is MUCH higher. People make all kinds of life decisions based on values--sex on the first date, never cheat on a spouse, 'white lies' on a resumes--there are many personal decisions besides diet that are based on ethics, and in my experience, people who try to push their choices on others soon don't have the choice to be around those folks any more.
I've been vegetarian for 23 years, because of the international socio-economic impacts of raising meat. I don't try to convert people (unless I'm provoked by too many comments assuming that I'm fussing over widdle baby chickies or whatever, and then I will briefly summarize a couple recent illustrations of the problem), but would like to be left in peace to order as I choose.
With my son, I let him make his own choices, and figure we'll get to talking about political economy when he's a bit older. For the time being, if he were offered veal or liver pate or something produced in horrific (for the animal) circumstances, I would steer him away, but I just this morning bought a couple type of sausage to send to school with him, from the same butcher I took my parents to to pick out wurst when they were here.
The "damage is done" point is way off base. Much as I don't agree with trying to force companions into your worldview, I think this is a dangerous position to take when deciding on your own order. Yes, the fin is already in the walk-in, but the food industry, like any other, runs on principles of supply and demand, so your order, although it means nothing for the case currently on ice, does influence the future market.-COLLAPSE
umm...did I just see a recipe up there for tortilla stacks layered with shark and black beans????
This is as silly as Pam Anderson, the peta spokesperson and animal lover/activist preaching about banning fur and animal cruelty, etc - whilst parading around in her leather corsett - seriously, short of murder, people really need to back off this politically correct BS.
Ocean Lover should STFU, to be frank. I've never been involved in the issue of shark fin soup, but I do enjoy veal, foie gras, and salmon, and I'm not going to feel guilty about eating those foods several times a year.
If one of my vegetarian friends began to admonish me because I choose to eat meat, he or she would get one warning. After that, it would be the curtain call for our friendship.