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Dear Helena,
Sometimes I see women putting lipstick on after they finish eating at a restaurant and are sitting at the table. Even my grandma used to do it, and she had impeccable manners (I think!). Is it bad manners to do this? —Lipstick Memories
Dear Lipstick Memories,
When you’re having dinner with people, your attention should be on the food and on the conversation. That’s why it’s not OK to nibble on your lover’s ear, compose a tweet, or examine your reflection in your butter knife.
But after dinner, there’s a lull. The food is eaten; the conversation is winding down. People are starting to focus on other things: gathering their coats and planning what to do next. They’re fishing out mints and checking to see if the baby-sitter called. At this time it’s OK to refresh your lipstick.
In general, of course, you should save grooming for the bathroom, or at least for a secluded corner. But putting on lipstick is different from other grooming activities. It’s not unhygienic, like brushing your hair (you don’t want stray hairs floating about in a place where people eat), and it’s not gross, like picking at your cuticles or your teeth.
With most makeup, you might not want to broadcast the fact that you are wearing it. For instance, if you use foundation, you might prefer people to think you have a natural glow. But no one is embarrassed about wearing lipstick. In fact, it’s usually pretty obvious if you have it on, or if you’ve just applied it. Lynn Peril, a lipstick-lover and the author of Pink Think: Becoming a Woman in Many Uneasy Lessons, says: “People know you’re doing it, so why not do it in public?”
If you don’t need to visit the bathroom anyway, it can be annoying to make a special trip there just to put on lippy. And, if you’re dining à deux, you’ll have to leave your companion sitting alone for five minutes. If you apply your lipstick at the table, it will only take 30 seconds.
It’s essential that you do it quickly. No one wants to watch you primp and preen. A swipe of lipstick is OK, but fiddling around with a lip liner is not. You’ll need a mirror (unless you’re a skilled cosmetician), but instead of whipping out something backed with cracked plastic, consider doing as Peril recommends and use a “beautiful vintage powder compact.” And, if you need to blot the lipstick, don’t toss the stained Kleenex onto the table. Put it in your purse or pocket to dispose of later.
Finally, a word of warning: If you’ve had a few drinks, you might find this whole process too challenging. Clear or light lip gloss is the solution. You don’t need a mirror to apply it, and if you go wrong you won’t look like a clown.
Table Manners appears every Wednesday. Have a Table Manners question? Email Helena.
Hi,
As a European it always makes me react, but it seems to be OK here. I would advice American women who travel in Europe not to do it when abroad, though. It is considered a faux-pas; all kind of grooming belongs in the bath room. And you have a better chance of a successful application in a well-lit bathroom, too.
I don't think so. You do not apply lipstick at a dinner table. That is a faux-pas.
Exception:
You can't go to the ladies room or the bathroom is not up to standard and you are sitting alone at the table after your companion has left for the gentlemen's room and you do it discreetly when no one is watching.
First let me say that someone with good judgment and manners could pull off almost anything she wanted to at the table. Because she has good judgment and manners.
Second, I remember eating at a Very Elegant restaurant in Palm Springs. Tuxedoed waiters, silver domed dishes, rolling carts. The woman at the table next to me blatently executed a five minute lipstick ritual, avec mirror, while her...+READ
First let me say that someone with good judgment and manners could pull off almost anything she wanted to at the table. Because she has good judgment and manners.
Second, I remember eating at a Very Elegant restaurant in Palm Springs. Tuxedoed waiters, silver domed dishes, rolling carts. The woman at the table next to me blatently executed a five minute lipstick ritual, avec mirror, while her waiter assembled and ignited her souffle flambe. I knew I was watching some bizarre social ritual, but I don't know what it was. Something like, 'look at me, I'm so fancy, I find this whole souffle thing SO boring, I'll use the time to do my makeup.' It was a great big middle finger to the waiter, but he carried it of gracefully. Of course.
Anyway, I felt like I was watching an ape at the zoo.-COLLAPSE
What makes me annoyed is any mirror activity. If you need a mirror, the table is NOT the place. It makes you look vain. But I confess to the quick swipe, usually because my lips are dry like our professor above. I do it with my eyes down-turned and get it over with ASAP.
okay everybody let's pretend someone finished their meal, and in the lull, pulled out chap stick from his/her pocket and applied quickly to their lips, capped, returned to pocket, on with conversation. no biggie. is lipstick so very, very different?
applying chap stick is pretty basic personal hygene/appearance, no more disruptive than dabbing at the corner of the mouth with one's napkin. *men*...+READ
okay everybody let's pretend someone finished their meal, and in the lull, pulled out chap stick from his/her pocket and applied quickly to their lips, capped, returned to pocket, on with conversation. no biggie. is lipstick so very, very different?
applying chap stick is pretty basic personal hygene/appearance, no more disruptive than dabbing at the corner of the mouth with one's napkin. *men* can do this without getting a raised eyebrow. but people are freaking out because a woman wants to quickly reapply lipstick-- *please*!
it's infinitely more annoying to be the dining companion of a woman who must visit the ladies' thrice or more in the course of each and every meal, leaving you bored and wondering whether she has a bladder problem, an eating disorder, or worse. . .
i personally think the "beautiful antique compact" is a bit of a production. just buy a nice brand of lipstick, like clinique, that generally has a polished end of the tube for this very purpose, so you can use the cap as a small mirror. swipe lips, cap lipstick, pocketbook. ten whole seconds. you're beautiful and ready to go, your date's not bored & thinking that you have issues, everybody's happy.-COLLAPSE
This is a behavior that separates those who think they have manners from the ones who really do. And yes, I'm a GIANT SNOB. So sue me.
Etiquette books that I have say it's a definite no-no. Now that's not to say that discretely dabbing on a bit of gloss or chapstick with a finger (if your lips feel are peeling and flaking into your food) makes you a skank. But pulling out the tube and mirror...+READ
This is a behavior that separates those who think they have manners from the ones who really do. And yes, I'm a GIANT SNOB. So sue me.
Etiquette books that I have say it's a definite no-no. Now that's not to say that discretely dabbing on a bit of gloss or chapstick with a finger (if your lips feel are peeling and flaking into your food) makes you a skank. But pulling out the tube and mirror is just a way of calling attention to yourself and announcing to the world that your manners really came from the trailer park.
I hate to see what's socially acceptable in restaurants (and in other public places) twenty to thirty years from now. I realize our customs change with the times, but geez. We'll be debating the social acceptance of hand-jobs at secluded tables before we know it.-COLLAPSE
hsk, if you need to take deodorant with you into a restaurant, then manners are not your biggest problem.
oh for heaven's sake, calm down!
IF I wear any lipstick at all, it's not for your viewing pleasure. It's because my lips are dry and when they crack, it hurts! I pull out one of the freebie lipsticks I get when I buy skin care products and go. I put it on whenever I feel chapping in action--on the subway, after lecturing (I'm a prof), after any activity that wipes it off (that includes eating)....+READ
oh for heaven's sake, calm down!
IF I wear any lipstick at all, it's not for your viewing pleasure. It's because my lips are dry and when they crack, it hurts! I pull out one of the freebie lipsticks I get when I buy skin care products and go. I put it on whenever I feel chapping in action--on the subway, after lecturing (I'm a prof), after any activity that wipes it off (that includes eating). If you think it's a sexy invite to kiss, you're free to watch, but not to unilaterally take me up on supposed invite (I once had a fellow think I was inviting him to strip--never saw anyone undress, freeze, redress and flee so fast in my life!) If you don't like it, look at your messages or fingernails or something. I'll be done that fast, and you don't have to get in a twit.
BTW, I promise not to do that weird horse-lippy thing to make sure it's off my teeth.-COLLAPSE
A quick swipe is ok, I guess, in casual company. It still seems tacky to me and I know for sure my own grandmothers would have been aghast. But, in general, makeup maintenance belongs in the ladies room, not at the table.
If you wear sleeveless it's OK to reapply deodorant at the table. too. As long as it's quick..
I personally go to the ladies to apply my lip gloss, but on a date, if a gentleman sees his female dining partner apply lipstick or lip gloss, he MAY think it's an invitation to a KISS! :-)
For some reason, nearly all of my in-law relatives chew with their mouths open- loudly. I'd prefer a quick lipstick reapplication any time, even if they're men-, as opposed to the chewing, or worse, the inevitable loud sucking of air through the teeth afterward to free lodged food particles.
Personally, I think its gross. So easy to take a minute to walk across the room to the ladies room. I wouldn't be horrified if one of my friends did it at the table, although most of them wouldn't. I'd think it showed a lack of respect... either that or that we were dining at the McDonald's kiddy playroom or something.
That doesn't bother me. I knew a woman who would blow her nose at the table and leave the dirty kleenex behind the salt and pepper shakers.
Lipstick at the table is OK, but hair spraying and mascara are major no no's.
Dude here. I agree w/Matt Schantz. I don't care one way or the other. I 'd certainly rather see this than watch someone floss at the table. If however the lady in question begins to reapply her entire face (mascara, blush, etc) then I think she's being rude.
Oh and Diana..the only people I've ever seen apply each others' make up are drag queens. (Don't ask)
Hahahah pwnage! Yea, I agree with Vorpal here in that it's good she's not quoting random people that are supposed to have some sort of authority. Sure this topic isn't that useful but at least Helena is starting to actually voice her own opinion. She really should start talking about what she think rather than ask random community college student in LA about manners, etc.
I tip my hat to thee...+READ
Hahahah pwnage! Yea, I agree with Vorpal here in that it's good she's not quoting random people that are supposed to have some sort of authority. Sure this topic isn't that useful but at least Helena is starting to actually voice her own opinion. She really should start talking about what she think rather than ask random community college student in LA about manners, etc.
I tip my hat to thee helena, your column may just be readable yet.-COLLAPSE
Diana, did you even READ the full article before rattling off your hyperbolic dissent?
Helena will of course NOT say it's ok to "tweeze eyerow [sic] and nose hairs, pop whiteheads and style your hair" at the table. The only reason she says it's ok to quickly apply lipstick is because it can be done unobtrusively and is not unhygienic! Further, as Miss Needle says, etiquette books approve of...+READ
Diana, did you even READ the full article before rattling off your hyperbolic dissent?
Helena will of course NOT say it's ok to "tweeze eyerow [sic] and nose hairs, pop whiteheads and style your hair" at the table. The only reason she says it's ok to quickly apply lipstick is because it can be done unobtrusively and is not unhygienic! Further, as Miss Needle says, etiquette books approve of the practice.
Pwned-COLLAPSE
It's REALLY rude if you apply lipstick to the person sitting next to you. I have seen this done.
"Here, you need a little touch up, pucker! Ok, now, BLOT!"
It's even ruder if the person sitting next to you is a guy.
If done in a sultry manner, I approve.
I'm not a big fan of lipstick (rings on glasses etc.), but I don't care if others refresh theirs at the table. The only thing I find disturbing is when someone whips out a mirror and goes into advanced aesthetic maneuvers... oh, and anything involving hair. Blech.
For those who think it's rude, etiquette books say it's perfectly okay to apply lipstick at the table after the meal. That said, I personally don't do it because I'm not comfortable with it (and don't necessarily follow what the etiquette books say anyway) -- plus I wear those super-longwear lipsticks. Only apply once in the AM and never have to worry about it until I go to bed. The best...+READ
For those who think it's rude, etiquette books say it's perfectly okay to apply lipstick at the table after the meal. That said, I personally don't do it because I'm not comfortable with it (and don't necessarily follow what the etiquette books say anyway) -- plus I wear those super-longwear lipsticks. Only apply once in the AM and never have to worry about it until I go to bed. The best invention in the world!-COLLAPSE
sounds like the ladies care more than the men.
What, Helena? No quoting the opinion of a male tax accountant in Australia? (I'm kidding, everybody!)
As a guy, I couldn't care less if a woman did her lipstick at the table. Furthermore, I think it's funny how offensive some people find this, based on the comments here. Dramatic, much?
Of course you don't apply lipstick at the table. Pre or post food, it's rude. I don't do my mascara or eyeliner, either.
next thing, Helena's going to be saying it's ok to tweeze eyerow and nose hairs, pop whiteheads and style your hair.
Tell me, Helena, who taught you etiquette? Shame on them
I agree with sbkat. The key element is speed. You're just restoring a touch of color to cover over the splotchy lipstick left on your lips after a meal. If you want your lips to look perfect, head to the ladies'.
I also think it is inappropriate to apply lipstick, powder or whatever at the table. You should excuse yourself and use the restroom. The only exception being the elderly women who have a hard time walking.
As a dude, I have to assert that I firmly do not give a damn if women do this in the manner she detailed.
I agree with thenurse. I think it's rude, and, frankly, an unattractive thing to have to witness at a dinner table. Is it really that difficult to duck into the bathroom for a second and take care of your make-up needs?
I agree with mainsqueeze - I think it's rude.
“People know you’re doing it, so why not do it in public?”
Definitely don't agree with the above statement. Everyone knows we all pee and poo and have sex and pick our noses, etc, etc., but we surely don't (shouldn't) do that in public.
I think people need to check their vanity - refresh the lipstick before you arrive (in the car) and then again...+READ
I agree with mainsqueeze - I think it's rude.
“People know you’re doing it, so why not do it in public?”
Definitely don't agree with the above statement. Everyone knows we all pee and poo and have sex and pick our noses, etc, etc., but we surely don't (shouldn't) do that in public.
I think people need to check their vanity - refresh the lipstick before you arrive (in the car) and then again in the restroom later. Leave it and other things in your purse when at the table.-COLLAPSE
I think it's kind of rude, to be honest.
It's probably okay after a brunch with girlfriends or something but I wouldn't do it after dinner at my in-laws' or in formal situations.
I think it also depends on the company. If it's someone you're comfortable with seeing you put on makeup, the quick swipe is okay. But, strangers and business, I say make the trip to the loo.
I think it is okay to apply lipstick at the table. Men belch and burp after their meal, why can't we be more beautiful?
I agree Helena,
If you can get the lipstick on post meal, without leaving the table and a big to do, perfect. I prefer no mirror involved.
I watched (and learned) from my mother about this. Quick find in the purse, a light application, rub lips together while putting lipstick back flawlessly in your handbag, done. No blotting, unless you provide your own tissue, which also comes out when said...+READ
I agree Helena,
If you can get the lipstick on post meal, without leaving the table and a big to do, perfect. I prefer no mirror involved.
I watched (and learned) from my mother about this. Quick find in the purse, a light application, rub lips together while putting lipstick back flawlessly in your handbag, done. No blotting, unless you provide your own tissue, which also comes out when said tube does.
My mother still does it best - and she's 75!-COLLAPSE