
Dear Helena,
Lately I have noticed that more and more people have been doing the kiss-on-the-lips thing when they greet you and say goodbye, particularly if it’s in a casual setting like somebody’s house for a dinner party. I’m not talking air kiss (which is awkward enough), but an actual peck on the actual lips. Am I a prude for thinking this is a little inappropriate? It seems too intimate or something. I’m a married woman, if that makes a difference. And I live in California. Maybe this is a California thing. Anyway, what the hell? —Kiss and Tell
Dear Kiss and Tell,
There are no clear rules on how you should physically greet or say goodbye to someone you know. Should you hug or should you kiss? One cheek or two? Often it depends on whom you’re greeting: male or female, gay or straight, a close friend or an acquaintance. Without clear protocols, people can get confused. Once, at the end of a drunken dinner party, a half-French friend of mine went to say goodbye to one of the other guests. “Shall we do a French kiss?” she said, meaning a kiss on each cheek. He started making out with her. (Happily, she didn’t mind.)
A peck on the lips is a highly unusual mode of greeting. But before I get to that, I want to address the question of hug versus cheek kiss. I prefer the latter as a standard greeting. With hugs, there is so much that can go wrong. Amy Pandya, a grad-student researcher in LA, says: “People here do the bend-at-the-waist hug. They lean over from afar and hug you round the shoulders. That seems fake to me. I’d prefer a hearty handshake to a half hug.” Or the hug may go on too long. Ten seconds is the max, says David Lebovitz, a cookbook author in Paris. I’m British, so I think three seconds of full-body contact is plenty (unless somebody died). This may sound harsh, but try hugging a friend and counting “one Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi,” and you’ll see what I mean.
In contrast, a cheek kiss is straightforward. You just swoop in and out. Make sure you make contact with the other person’s cheek. Physically touching someone when you meet and part is an act of trust and intimacy. Air kissing makes it look like you think the other person has germs.
It would be nice if gender didn’t influence people’s choice of greeting. Certainly it would be simpler. But men vary in their level of comfort with male-male physical contact. James Nestor, a San Francisco writer, says, “Girls hug girls, guys hug girls, guys don’t hug guys.” For Nestor, a handshake is preferred. Often men clasp hands, then hug each other’s shoulders with their free arm. Their joined hands form a barrier between them so their bodies can’t come too close. The man-hug typically ends with a pat on the back. As Mac McKenzie, a retired phone-company lineman in San Francisco, says: “It’s like the tap in tag-team wrestling. It shows it’s time to separate.”
But whatever gender is involved, lip kissing is unusual. Some people I talked to had encountered it, but not many. Since it’s so egregious, people don’t know what to make of it. If the lip-kisser is a close friend, you may take it as a sign of deep affection and put up with it. McKenzie says a few close friends lip-kiss him, and it’s OK, provided the kiss is a “dry peck, with no feeling that something else is being broadcast.” He wasn’t happy to receive a lip kiss from an acquaintance who “had an unkempt beard and licked his lips a lot.”
If someone regularly greets you with a lip kiss, you could try to preempt him or her by going for the cheek. If the person is a dear friend, throw in a hug too, and if it’s your long-lost cousin, extend the hug to 10 seconds. But lips are for lovers only.
Table Manners appears every Wednesday. Have a Table Manners question? Email Helena.
You are SO WRONG. Most European countries along with South American countries STRAIGHT men kiss men on lips when saying hello or goodbye. They sometimes go a little further than that when it comes to sports, especially football, soccer, rugby, etc. Turn on a few games and you will see everyone from Brits to Chillians, to Itallians, to Russians, and many other countries, {Canadians are even...+READ
You are SO WRONG. Most European countries along with South American countries STRAIGHT men kiss men on lips when saying hello or goodbye. They sometimes go a little further than that when it comes to sports, especially football, soccer, rugby, etc. Turn on a few games and you will see everyone from Brits to Chillians, to Itallians, to Russians, and many other countries, {Canadians are even starting} are kissing their teammates on the lips in times of scores and in bad instances too. (They also greet this way). There is grab ass, {NOT a smack} as us uptight Americans stick to. I have seen them get a little more handsy as well, but a manto man kiss as a greeting, celebration, whate ver, is becoming more and more common amoungst the world.
You people answering questiolns need to get your facts right before answering people. Whether it's your goal or not, your mis-information spreads hate and if one of your readers was a homophobic beater/killer, you might get straight people killed, {which he/she shouldn't bother gays either. The countries I listed are only a couple....there are at least 50 more with the same practices ongoing or just getting to be accepted. Funny how the country that was founded so people could be themselves without penalty is going to be one of the last ones to accept people for who they are. Two straight Russian men {friends} were killed a little over a yearf ago while on vacation in the supposed accepting of all countries, the USA. It was because they were seen kissing on the lips when greeting each other, their wives standing next to them.
IF YOU ARE GOING TO ANSWER A QUESTION, ESPECIALLY OF THIS NATURE, [obviously people are seeing it more often by the number of questions I've seen referencing it} MAKE SURE YOU RESEARCH IT BEFORE YOU ANSWER. You may be responsible for deathor injury if you don't. And I promise you, you will be as guilty as the actor if they reference your web site or if they find it on their computer. {Just a little free advice, since you supposedly answer questions knowledgably, where we know you didn't this one}. Easy....watch just one of each game I mentioned, iwith teams from the countries I told you and you will see 's here to stay and Americans need to be Americans ans learn to accept people different than themselves. I DON'T KNOW HOW I STUMBLED ON THIS, BUT GLAD I DID.-COLLAPSE
What's the "appropriate" way of greeting or saying goodbye to someone when it comes to a "lip" kiss vs. a "cheek" kiss? I was told it's the Jewish culture when my boyfriend had a couple over to meet me and the female gave him a kiss (peck) on the lips when they left. He didn't see nothing wrong with it. It's not my "culture" to kiss people goodbye on the lips. Cheeks are always acceptable and...+READ
What's the "appropriate" way of greeting or saying goodbye to someone when it comes to a "lip" kiss vs. a "cheek" kiss? I was told it's the Jewish culture when my boyfriend had a couple over to meet me and the female gave him a kiss (peck) on the lips when they left. He didn't see nothing wrong with it. It's not my "culture" to kiss people goodbye on the lips. Cheeks are always acceptable and safe in regard to erring on the cautious side. I was offended because I think that lips are exclusive for your mate/boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife and/or family such as children, parents, etc. What are your thoughts? I don't think dear friends are wrong for their genuine warmth and belief, however I do feel that I'm not wrong for my belief that that should not take place neither and if I'm uncomfortable with it, then he should make sure it doesn't happen again....with any "friends".-COLLAPSE
"Lips are for lovers only"? 10-second rule for hugs? Really? What a bland, cold, and insincere world this would be if my friends and I followed those "rules." As with all healthy relationships, it's a matter of consensus. Yes make it a cheek kiss if on the lips isn't for you. But don't make dear, simpatico friends wrong for their genuine warmth.
can i ask a question here? in the case that lip kissing as a way of saying goodbye or greeting between dear friends (a man and a woman, but not lovers), do people peck on the lips just once? is pecking 3 or 4 times normal??
There's nothing wrong with two men kissing each other on the lips. I am a heterosexual married man who has a very close friend who is, also, heterosexual and married. We NEVER greet or depart from each other without exchanging a kiss on the lips and we never end a phone conversation without an "I love you" back and forth. I suppose in today's jardon you would say we are experiencing a "bromance"....+READ
There's nothing wrong with two men kissing each other on the lips. I am a heterosexual married man who has a very close friend who is, also, heterosexual and married. We NEVER greet or depart from each other without exchanging a kiss on the lips and we never end a phone conversation without an "I love you" back and forth. I suppose in today's jardon you would say we are experiencing a "bromance". By the way, both of our wives are accepting of our behaviour and think it's wonderful how we two men feel about each other. Just to set the record straight, we have never had sex with each other.-COLLAPSE
I hope I'll get a response form this and I hope it'll be a man woh has a flesh and blood brother that he kisses on the lips. I hope he can post a video of him and his brother quick pecking on the lips on this site. I beleve even two flesh and blood brothers can do that at a table or wherever, in private or like at dinner with others like is being discussed and not be gay.
i'm with aggiegrrrl - I come from a family of lip kissers as well and it was never an issue. I do find most people in north america are more uptight when it comes to physical contact - be it a hug or a kiss - so I tend to play it by ear. Just b/w us tho, I must confess that I hold a special place in my heart for those friends that do lip kiss or give proper hugs since it's my natural inclination...+READ
i'm with aggiegrrrl - I come from a family of lip kissers as well and it was never an issue. I do find most people in north america are more uptight when it comes to physical contact - be it a hug or a kiss - so I tend to play it by ear. Just b/w us tho, I must confess that I hold a special place in my heart for those friends that do lip kiss or give proper hugs since it's my natural inclination as well.
Rule of thumb: I err on the side of caution and follow the other person's lead.-COLLAPSE
What happened to the friendly kiss-on-the-cheek? Maybe people got so worked-up about not having a date they thought the host could fill in. Otherwise, people don't like the kiss-on-the-cheek dinner party thing. If you don't like it, do a handshake instead.
guess it depends on what cheek or lips the kiss is on
i know i know look at my screen name
Since this column ran I have started doing the lip kiss greeting, uncontrollably, like a tourettic response. Maybe it's Freudian, as I'm so afraid somebody else is going to do it, that I just do it. Then I'm immediately embarrassed, questioning whether it was just a desperate attempt for physical contact, like groping somebody on a bus. I am sorry to all the friends who may be getting a lip kiss...+READ
Since this column ran I have started doing the lip kiss greeting, uncontrollably, like a tourettic response. Maybe it's Freudian, as I'm so afraid somebody else is going to do it, that I just do it. Then I'm immediately embarrassed, questioning whether it was just a desperate attempt for physical contact, like groping somebody on a bus. I am sorry to all the friends who may be getting a lip kiss greeting from me in the future. I NEED HELP.-COLLAPSE
This has been a very interesting discussion thread to read. I just joined a new healthcare organization where a friendly hug is the norm for both genders. I am very comfortable with that, it seems to build good teamsmanship.
In other situations, I am comfortable with most of the above greetings except that I would be very uncomfortable with a lip or cheek kiss from another male at any time,...+READ
This has been a very interesting discussion thread to read. I just joined a new healthcare organization where a friendly hug is the norm for both genders. I am very comfortable with that, it seems to build good teamsmanship.
In other situations, I am comfortable with most of the above greetings except that I would be very uncomfortable with a lip or cheek kiss from another male at any time, and male to male hugs are brief and always involve the back pat. Also, honestly, if a female gave me a lip kiss greeting, I would be inclined to view it as a sensual, if not necessarily, sexual contact.-COLLAPSE
Funny that I was just having the discussion the other day...wondering if I was weird for kissing on the lips.
I grew up in a family where everyone greeted everyone, family and friends, and said goodbyes with lip smoochies so this is comfortable for me. My long-time friends expect it but new friends?I don't push it on them.
My thought is don't expect it but be prepared for it and realize...+READ
Funny that I was just having the discussion the other day...wondering if I was weird for kissing on the lips.
I grew up in a family where everyone greeted everyone, family and friends, and said goodbyes with lip smoochies so this is comfortable for me. My long-time friends expect it but new friends?I don't push it on them.
My thought is don't expect it but be prepared for it and realize that it is just a sign of affection; not a come-on.-COLLAPSE
How much tongue is involved?
At this stage, I think ass-grabs are still in the "friends-plus" category, at least in most circles. :) Maybe we should all start sidling up to acquaintances from behind, fondle them a bit and whisper "guess who" in their ears? (lol)
As for topics, well, yeah, but this is "Chow" not "Chowhound" - not sure how that works out that way but it seems the norm...
an ass-grab?
No, I really think we need a whole new lexicon of gestures for greeting and parting - the hug and handshake have their place but are sooo tired and overused. A good meal with good friends, as I see it, could just as easily call for a high five, a chest bump, or an ass-grab. The quick parting lip-kiss is an important element here too, lets not forgo it just to keep everyone in their comfort zone.
Let's leave kissing on the lips for our romantic other. Air kissing, cheek kissing, hugs and friendly pats should suffice for friends.
Awkward greeting moments are bound to arise when amoung friends of different cultures, but it's all done in good spirit so who cares? ....but I do draw the line at lip kissing amoung friends. I don't think that it's a cultural norm anywhere, is it?
Topic is spot on- this often happens at dinner parties, so its worth discussing. I think the norms depend on where you live. In the US, a normal social greeting is a kiss on the cheek. A kiss on the lips is very intimate but not necessarily sexual, so not a reason to be offended.. Outside of the US, it's often a guessing game what to do. The Dutch kiss three times, alternating cheeks (must...+READ
Topic is spot on- this often happens at dinner parties, so its worth discussing. I think the norms depend on where you live. In the US, a normal social greeting is a kiss on the cheek. A kiss on the lips is very intimate but not necessarily sexual, so not a reason to be offended.. Outside of the US, it's often a guessing game what to do. The Dutch kiss three times, alternating cheeks (must remember this when greeting Dutch friends) while most expats kiss twice (once on either cheek). I have noticed that later in the evening, some of the men move the cheek kisses in to the corners of the mouth- very naughty! Its a bit like dancing. The person who moves in for the kiss is leading, until the recipient decides whether or not to follow.-COLLAPSE
I think the only person I've ever lip-kissed with (except my SO) was probably my mom. A few weeks ago, I was about to give my sister-in-law's husband a kiss on the cheek. Well, something happened with the cheek turning and we accidentally we lip-kissed. Both of us said, "oops" and felt a bit awkward. But no big deal, really.
I'm a (gay) guy, and I'll generally go in for a heartfelt hug (even with my straight male friends, who don't seem to be uncomfortable with it) provided I've met someone more than once and don't entirely dislike them. If he or she tries to move in for a cheek kiss or lip kiss, I'll happily reciprocate, but I don't typically initiate them.
Why can't 2 guys hug? There's nothing awkward about that. Also, I love the completely useful evidence. Let's cite some student in LA and an ice cream maker in Paris; yes, they'll be the evidence for my column: they are so qualified to talk on this subject.
When I lived in Brazil, I had the hardest time with the kissing thing. There were different rules for when you kissed once, twice, three times. As near as I could tell, twice was normal, three times for people you were close to, and once for people you were really close to or otherwise greeting casually. I don't think I ever guessed right in the entire time I was there.
I do lip kiss certain friends but would never expect that from someone I hardly know. If they went in for a lip landing, I would turn my head a bit so it would land on my cheek. My 30 yr. old daughter manages a sports bar, and I have gotten to know the staff and patrons fairly well. They always greet me with a lip kiss, but they see me as a mother figure, and most don't have their mom's around,...+READ
I do lip kiss certain friends but would never expect that from someone I hardly know. If they went in for a lip landing, I would turn my head a bit so it would land on my cheek. My 30 yr. old daughter manages a sports bar, and I have gotten to know the staff and patrons fairly well. They always greet me with a lip kiss, but they see me as a mother figure, and most don't have their mom's around, so I don't mind that. As a matter of fact both of my daughters friends do that. I said something, and they laughed and said that I was such a "mom" that all their friends wanted to adopt me. That's a compliment in my book.-COLLAPSE
i think bottom line is who your with.
what i mean by that is, most people have 2 groups of friends and they should use good judgement as to which group gets this treatment
if you agree or not with the kissing thing i think you all will at least agree with the fact that you and your friends should know each other well enough to feel them out as to if it is ok or not and IF in doubt don't
I have a couple friends who do the quick lip kiss thing. As long as nobody has anything in their mouths I don't see the big deal.
And I usually hate on Helena but I think this is pretty relevant. MUCH more so than the autographing/twittering/dry-humping threads.
Well, this kissing, or the way of kissing, is really cultural, isn't it?
That lip kissing between friends, even good friends, is always akward with each one trying to find the right amount of contact.
The simple rule , IMHO, is that it is just a ritual and should be treated as such and adapted to the local ways but with a little nonchalance. For instance here in Italy we normally go for a hug...+READ
Well, this kissing, or the way of kissing, is really cultural, isn't it?
That lip kissing between friends, even good friends, is always akward with each one trying to find the right amount of contact.
The simple rule , IMHO, is that it is just a ritual and should be treated as such and adapted to the local ways but with a little nonchalance. For instance here in Italy we normally go for a hug and a quasi-kiss on both cheeks. It actually is more like cheek-touching than kissing. But we have some ( American) friends who think that to be like the natives they have to stamp big kisses with their lips on people's cheeks. Frankly that's a bit to much, especially considering that he, not her, is the most enthusiastic. But I don't want to disappoint them so I let them keep their illusion ( and dry up my face furtively...)-COLLAPSE
Whenever my uncle comes to NY for a visit, he tries to give me a lip kiss as a hello and goodbye. Lip kisses are for my boyfriend, not my uncle. And he even tries to bypass my "turn to give him my cheek" move!
Totally agreed linguafood! more hugs and kisses for these people...
I think the topic is appropriate, because whenever you deal with food you are dealing with people ( unless you are a loner who only eats delivery pizza inside your apartment, although nothing says you couldn't hug - or kiss - the delivery guy).
Also, the whole variation on hugs, kisses, half hugs, hand shakes, is a very...+READ
Totally agreed linguafood! more hugs and kisses for these people...
I think the topic is appropriate, because whenever you deal with food you are dealing with people ( unless you are a loner who only eats delivery pizza inside your apartment, although nothing says you couldn't hug - or kiss - the delivery guy).
Also, the whole variation on hugs, kisses, half hugs, hand shakes, is a very cultural thing. I kiss all my friends from South America and Europe on the cheeks, including the guys. But I never felt I could do this with my friends from US.
And I reserve the really long affectionate hugs to really close friends and family members I enjoy.-COLLAPSE
Being a European, the whole kissy and hugging thing is not news. However, most greetings involve kissing the cheek. Two of my (male!) friends, both of which are in relationships, have moved on to the lip-kiss greeting. At first, I found it a rather ballsy move, but since I like them both, I don't mind. As a general rule, though, I'd take the hug and cheek kiss over the lip thing. I like to choose...+READ
Being a European, the whole kissy and hugging thing is not news. However, most greetings involve kissing the cheek. Two of my (male!) friends, both of which are in relationships, have moved on to the lip-kiss greeting. At first, I found it a rather ballsy move, but since I like them both, I don't mind. As a general rule, though, I'd take the hug and cheek kiss over the lip thing. I like to choose whom I kiss on the mouth.
I am also starting to think that the Helena Haters around here need more hugs AND kisses in their lives.-COLLAPSE
"Once, at the end of a drunken dinner party, a half-French friend of mine went to say goodbye to one of the other guests. “Shall we do a French kiss?” she said, meaning a kiss on each cheek. He started making out with her. (Happily, she didn’t mind.)"
Helena, pleeeease invite me to your next party!
Personally, I neither want to be hugged nor kissed.
I think 2 straight men do that pat on the back thing so it won't look like they're making out. Depending who it is I will do the cheeks-together air-kiss. I will NEVER lip-kiss unless she (or he!) initiates it first.
andytee: A dry peck..I like that description, it's perfect!
Oh, hell no!
Lip-kissing? Friends and casual aquaintences?
I reiterate, Oh, Hell to the No. Not by anyone but my Husband. Full stop.
Even if someone tried to do it to me, I would be going for the cheek and would maneuver out of the way at the last moment. Luckily, I don't know anyone who would even conceive of doing such a thing. Disgusting!
Yes please, stop the Helena-hating. It's called Table Manners, which (in my mind) should include more than just "food topics." If you don't like it, why are you reading it?
Stop the Helena-hating. If anything, she has awesome parties, as evidenced by the following:
"“Shall we do a French kiss?” she said, meaning a kiss on each cheek. He started making out with her. (Happily, she didn’t mind.)"
I am in favor of more casual lip kissing as a greeting. Not sloppy, a dry peck. It's nice.
That's all.
Helena, this is the best you can do for topics? Wow. I agree with PlatypusJ, time for you to hang it up.
Seriously?!
If you're out of food topics, you should look for another job.