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Dear Helena,
My grandmother considers herself to be a stickler for etiquette. Among other things, she always tells me not to put my elbows on the table. Is this a rule that should go the way of white gloves and finger bowls?—Chastised
Dear Chastised,
Granny is right. Keep your elbows out of sight—or you might find yourself inadvertently doing the following:
1. Appearing to spread germs. Pamela Holland, business-etiquette coach and coauthor of Help! Was That a Career Limiting Move? (Brody Communications, 2001), says elbows on the table violate a hygiene taboo. “You don’t do it for the same reason you never put your purse on the table. Hygienically speaking, the table needs to stay as clean as possible. The more body parts on the table accompanying your food, the less hygienic it is.”
2. Looking like a Neanderthal. When you share a meal with someone, you’re supposed to divide your attention between their company and the food. If you’re hunkered down over your plate, you look too interested in your dinner. Holland says, “It seems rather primitive that your whole focus is on the food. You look like a caveman.”
3. Invading personal space. Some claim that the no-elbows rule developed in medieval times, when diners ate pressed so close together that if you put your elbows on the table, they’d probably end up in your neighbor’s dinner. Nowadays we have more room. But, especially at occasions where people don’t know each other well, putting elbows on the table can still make other diners feel cramped. Robert Shutt, an etiquette trainer who teaches seminars in savoir-faire to Ivy League undergrads, says, “Some people will think you don’t understand the importance of respecting other people’s personal space.”
But note that if you keep your elbows to yourself, it doesn’t mean you have to sit bolt upright. In fact, it’s OK to rest your forearms on the edge of the table. Shutt says, “Leaning forward demonstrates you’re interested in what the other person is saying.” Just don’t overdo it. His rule is, “If you’re supporting yourself on the table, imagine the table is removed. If you would fall, you’re too comfortable.”
There is one occasion when you can put your elbows on the table: If you’re on a date that’s going well, and you’re working up to holding your companion’s hand. Then it’s not invading the other person’s space, it’s flirting.
Have a Table Manners question? Email Helena. Read more Table Manners.
I think the necessity of not having elbows on the table stems from medieval times (not tipping an unstable table), and while the necessity is no longer there, it has become a tradition in western culture.
I for one am flexible with the rule. I mostly have my forearms on the table, but I won't begrudge the person who has his elbows on the table, especially if he is a good friend. I unconsciousl...+READ
I think the necessity of not having elbows on the table stems from medieval times (not tipping an unstable table), and while the necessity is no longer there, it has become a tradition in western culture.
I for one am flexible with the rule. I mostly have my forearms on the table, but I won't begrudge the person who has his elbows on the table, especially if he is a good friend. I unconsciousl do it too on occasion. I'm not being runde or impolite, I'm just being comfortable.
Sounds like the reason nowadays for the rule smacks more of a control issue than anything else. Some say elbows are dirty and it is a hygiene issue. Please! People put books, iPods, cell phones, their small purses on the table even in the most formal of occasions. Looking like a neanderthal? A little too dramatic, don't you think? The invading personal space reason sounds more acceptable to me. Some tables, like at outdoor cafes, are really small and if you were with a group then some might feel uncomfortable with your face right next to theirs.-COLLAPSE
Doesn't it really all go back to Leonardo DaVinci's painting "The Last Supper?" Who was the only person in the painting with their elbows on the table?
Judas. And nobody wants to be a Judas.
I may be the only one to the left with this but when with family and close friends, I say be the cavewoman/man that you want to be, that's how I show my appreciation for food, you know, with my elbows all on your soup and stuff :)
From the Europen perspective: You never keep your hands in your lap. You keep both forearms on the table. Elbows are not the issue.
When you have the kind of internal inconsistency in your statement of the rule as is shown above, I have a hard time buying the notion that the rule is anything other than an artificial class distinction type of restriction. Why is it unygienic to put your elbows on the table but perfectly okay to put your forearms on the table? Why is it acceptable to put your elbow on the table when you're...+READ
When you have the kind of internal inconsistency in your statement of the rule as is shown above, I have a hard time buying the notion that the rule is anything other than an artificial class distinction type of restriction. Why is it unygienic to put your elbows on the table but perfectly okay to put your forearms on the table? Why is it acceptable to put your elbow on the table when you're flirting -- do all hygiene cocerns flee when love is involved? I say lighten up and discard some of those etiquette notions that have no basis in anything other than snootiness.-COLLAPSE
This elbow off the table might be an English custom. I was dining with a French friend a while back and the situation about elbows on the table came up (... somehow, don't remember how...) He said in France, it's proper to keep your hands in sight (either forearms or elbow resting on the table.) Supposedly, keeping your hands under the table (or out of view) makes you suspicious... I think of the...+READ
This elbow off the table might be an English custom. I was dining with a French friend a while back and the situation about elbows on the table came up (... somehow, don't remember how...) He said in France, it's proper to keep your hands in sight (either forearms or elbow resting on the table.) Supposedly, keeping your hands under the table (or out of view) makes you suspicious... I think of the Han Solo / Greedo exchange in the Tatooine cantina in Star Wars IV. ... Plus! At a French bistro, you rarely see a bread plate. Bread goes right on the table, no problem! (I guess that's what those crumbers are for.)-COLLAPSE
This elbow off the table might be an English custom. I was dining with a French friend a while back and the situation about elbows on the table came up (... somehow, don't remember how...) He said in France, it's proper to keep your hands in sight (either forearms or elbow resting on the table.) Supposedly, keeping your hands under the table (or out of view) makes you suspicious... I think of the...+READ
This elbow off the table might be an English custom. I was dining with a French friend a while back and the situation about elbows on the table came up (... somehow, don't remember how...) He said in France, it's proper to keep your hands in sight (either forearms or elbow resting on the table.) Supposedly, keeping your hands under the table (or out of view) makes you suspicious... I think of the Han Solo / Greedo exchange in the Tatooine cantina in Star Wars IV. ... Plus! At a French bistro, you rarely see a bread plate. Bread goes right on the table, no problem! (I guess that's what those crumbers are for.)-COLLAPSE
I was taught that elbows are allowed on the table before and between courses, or when only bread is being eaten. I follow that rule and have observed that many others seem to do so as well.
A quick and unscientific google search of etiquette sites shows that some agree with this, while others say that elbows must never be allowed on the table. A third variation allows them only after all the...+READ
I was taught that elbows are allowed on the table before and between courses, or when only bread is being eaten. I follow that rule and have observed that many others seem to do so as well.
A quick and unscientific google search of etiquette sites shows that some agree with this, while others say that elbows must never be allowed on the table. A third variation allows them only after all the food has been eaten and the table cleared.
I say, in an informal situation follow your instincts. At a more formal dinner, observe the more socially astute in the crowd and follow their lead.-COLLAPSE
I'm an elbows agnostic, raised to keep'em off but not a fanatic about it. I do find myself with both elbow and forearm on the table while conversing before or after a meal or between courses, and once in a while at home, in private, a drumstick or rib or neckbone requires close enough attention to cause me to lean on an elbow or two, but yes, it is a little sloppy. But seeing someone do that does...+READ
I'm an elbows agnostic, raised to keep'em off but not a fanatic about it. I do find myself with both elbow and forearm on the table while conversing before or after a meal or between courses, and once in a while at home, in private, a drumstick or rib or neckbone requires close enough attention to cause me to lean on an elbow or two, but yes, it is a little sloppy. But seeing someone do that does not really offend me.
Highly audible eating noises of any kind, on the other hand, offend me hugely; I understand that there are cultures where such sounds are complimentary to the cook and/or host, and are considered good manners. I will not visit those places.-COLLAPSE
Actually, in Chinese culture, you eat out of a bowl that you hold in your hand, OFF of the table. It's considered bad manner to leave the bowl on the table without it being in contact with your hand. So, elbows can't touch the table.
In the western tradition I've always been told that you never pick up your bowl, or plate when you eat, and that you don't even touch it with the helping hand.
...+READ
Actually, in Chinese culture, you eat out of a bowl that you hold in your hand, OFF of the table. It's considered bad manner to leave the bowl on the table without it being in contact with your hand. So, elbows can't touch the table.
In the western tradition I've always been told that you never pick up your bowl, or plate when you eat, and that you don't even touch it with the helping hand.
So, often in mixed company of western and Asian eaters, I find myself either eating off of a plate with chopsticks or fork, but at which time my left hand doesn't touch the plate, OR, I eat with chopsticks, out of a bowl that I either hold up (elbow drooped straight down, not sticking out, never on the table) or leave on table, but held with the left hand as a gesture (elbow drooped straight down again, not on table, not sticking outward)-COLLAPSE
If one is using chopsticks and rice bowl, how on earth one would manage without resting the elbows or forearms on the table? One would get tired very fast.
Obviously, this elbows-on-the-table rule was made back long time ago for whatever reason and haven't accounted for different cultures.
I think the reason for the hand-in-lap difference between Americans and Europeans (at least the British, I can't speak for our continental co-diners) is that Americans cut up their food then use the fork in the right hand to eat it. Here, we use our knife and fork throughout the meal, with the fork in the left hand, unless we are left-handed, but in either case, we use both pieces of cutlery...+READ
I think the reason for the hand-in-lap difference between Americans and Europeans (at least the British, I can't speak for our continental co-diners) is that Americans cut up their food then use the fork in the right hand to eat it. Here, we use our knife and fork throughout the meal, with the fork in the left hand, unless we are left-handed, but in either case, we use both pieces of cutlery (what do you call it? flatware?) simultaneously.
We also try to balance everything, including peas, on the back of the fork. This is not, I appreciate, very efficient, but it's how we do things.-COLLAPSE
KETCHUP said "But another thing: You can always pick out the Americans at a dinner because they tend to keep at least one hand on their lap when eating. That's not done either in Old Europe. Why do you?"
You're right, in America we do think It's Really Good Manners to have the hand that is not in direct contact with the comestibles to rest in the lap. I speculate it's because it shows how...+READ
KETCHUP said "But another thing: You can always pick out the Americans at a dinner because they tend to keep at least one hand on their lap when eating. That's not done either in Old Europe. Why do you?"
You're right, in America we do think It's Really Good Manners to have the hand that is not in direct contact with the comestibles to rest in the lap. I speculate it's because it shows how diligently we are not putting out elbows on the table.
Also, some European countries have the unspoken assumption that a hand out of sight might be doing something unmentionable. Americans do not share that assumption, so there's no reason for us to keep the hand on display all the time.-COLLAPSE
I think there are so many variables that it is nearly impossible to declare this a hard and fast rule. If you are in a casual setting, leaning an elbow on the table may appear more sociable to your companion. I tend to GENTLY sit one elbow on the table and rest my chin on it...again, done GENTLY, as to appear delicate, not resting one's whole body weight on your arms and the table. throwing both...+READ
I think there are so many variables that it is nearly impossible to declare this a hard and fast rule. If you are in a casual setting, leaning an elbow on the table may appear more sociable to your companion. I tend to GENTLY sit one elbow on the table and rest my chin on it...again, done GENTLY, as to appear delicate, not resting one's whole body weight on your arms and the table. throwing both elbows on the table in a formal setting would be far less welcome. Even the amount of diners with me comes into play. I don't put my elbows on the table ever in a group setting, because it shuts me off from those next to me. But with my sweetheart, I may rest them on the table and lean forward slightly to show him I am interested in what he is saying. It's all in the delivery.-COLLAPSE
Luckily I know my elbows from my assh***. Which would you prefer to see resting on the table?
Try eating fried chicken or BBQ without having elbows come into play!
This is a loaded question. It is apparent from the responses that the "no elbows on the table" phenomenon is based on the upper (uppity) class where they do such things as place their napkins on their laps and their pinky's in the air. Those of us in a lesser station of life are just filthy pigs who must lean all over the table just to shovel in our grub. This is a historical, class, issue. I...+READ
This is a loaded question. It is apparent from the responses that the "no elbows on the table" phenomenon is based on the upper (uppity) class where they do such things as place their napkins on their laps and their pinky's in the air. Those of us in a lesser station of life are just filthy pigs who must lean all over the table just to shovel in our grub. This is a historical, class, issue. I say, that if you are eating at a place where such nonsense is expected, then do it. Otherwise, at most casual and "lower class" (i.e. Chowhound friendly) places, it would seem tome to be completely appropriate to put a (clean) elbow on the table if you want. I guess my standards are just not what they should be.-COLLAPSE
In Greece it is considered good manners to lean your elbows on the table.They say it shows a zest for food and life. They have an expression: "he doesn't lean on the table" to denote no passion for life.
That makes a lot of sense.
Monday, great point. That reason explains why the rule is associated with breeding and good manners - only the swells had servants at every meal.
My mom, who is very young, said
1. No elbows on the table
2. Don't let the tines of your fork scrape against your teeth as you eat (a huge peeve of mine right now).
3. Don't talk with mouth full (duh!)--and people do this one way too much!
My dad, also a younger gent alway gave me a hard time for not picking up a drink with my hands and just sucking it from the straw on the table.
Placing your elbows on the table makes it nearly impossible for a server to clear your plate or place one in front of you. I've always understood that to be the main reason for the rule.
I work in San Francisco's Financial District where most of us are theoretically well-educated and somewhat cultured. Unfortunately that is an illusion.
Most people around here munch on finger foods walking down the street or balance fast-food burgers in one hand, a cell phone in the other, and steer their cars with their knees. Those who do have their lunches in restaurants do so while poking...+READ
I work in San Francisco's Financial District where most of us are theoretically well-educated and somewhat cultured. Unfortunately that is an illusion.
Most people around here munch on finger foods walking down the street or balance fast-food burgers in one hand, a cell phone in the other, and steer their cars with their knees. Those who do have their lunches in restaurants do so while poking and prodding their Blackberries, shouting with mouths half-full into cell phones, or they hunker down over their plates with lips and noses inches from their food.
Maybe life is more refined on the East Coast. Out here in the Wild West we do things the Medieval way.
As for European tourists visiting San Francisco ... well ... they stick close to the hotels that are accustomed to serving more cultured people than us wild Barbary Coast San Franciscans.
And for me? I munch on Chinese steamed pork buns at my desk.
I love them (and yes, my elbows are everywhere!)-COLLAPSE
Hamlet, Hamlet strong and able get your elbows off the table. This is not a horses stable but a first class dining table.
"My mother used to sign this every time she caught the infamous pointer on the table".
Is there a problem with comfort? If it's a casual dinner party and my guest cuddles into the table, I take it as a sign that they feel happy and well-fed. I suppose if I upped the ante and created an all-frills affair, I might be a little perterbed if my guests didn't at least try to bring out their best manners. The more forks at a place setting, the better my posture...
Hygiene? Hogwash. One's elbows are far more clean than one's hands. Just think of all the things you touch with your hands that you don't touch with your elbows. Money and door handles are just a couple obvious examples.
Never heard hygiene as being a reason for this rule. If you aren't supposed to put your elbows on the table or your hands in your lap, where exactly *do* you put your hands?
As to rule 1, hygiene, most of us are eating off of a plate and not directly off of the table, therfore hygiene is not a concern, plus if you're allowed to have your forearms on the table, that negates the whole germ thing anyway.
As far as grandma goes, if you're in her house you do things her way. When you entertain, you set the rules.
I have a large chest. If I don't support myself on the table at least part of the time, I get backaches from leaning forward to eat.
Same on this side of the Atlantic. There's more to it: with your elbows, you hide yourself from the others or you mask the view of your dinner companions around the table.
But another thing: You can always pick out the Americans at a dinner because they tend to keep at least one hand on their lap when eating. That's not done either in Old Europe. Why do you?