Is it true that all discerning and sophisticated palates reside on the coasts? Is the Midwest really filled with folks who wouldn’t appreciate unusual or exotic dining? Midwestern-born Michael Bauer seems to think so.
The San Francisco Chronicle restaurant critic was taken to task recently in a letter from a reader who took issue with a recent review in which Bauer described a dish as being “bland enough to appeal to the Midwestern tourist.”
I think it is extremely arrogant to think people in the Midwest would not enjoy a meal that is ‘different or exotic.’ You do not have to live in San Francisco or New York to have a sophisticated appreciation of food from different countries.
Bauer brings up the issue on his blog, Between Meals, in a post titled “Defending the Midwestern Palate.”
Stereotypes are terrible things, but at times they have a basis in truth. I am from the Midwest, and I go back to Kansas, Oklahoma and Missouri at least once a year. Having dined extensively on both coasts and in the Midwest, I can tell you firsthand there is a difference…. There are some individuals with very sophisticated palates, but there isn’t a critical mass to sustain chefs and restaurateurs who have a focused, unique style… I think it still holds true that most trends start on either coast and move to the ‘flyover states.’
Not unexpectedly, his post provoked a lot of comments. Some of the points are well worth considering:
• It’s more of a big city/small town issue than coastal or landlocked; people in big cities are exposed to more and become more adventurous eaters (witness Chicago).
• San Francisco has a high population of singles and childless couples who eat out more often and thus can sustain a wide variety of dining options.
• How adventurous and sophisticated is San Francisco’s palate anyway, when the perennial favorite dish is Zuni’s roast chicken?
What do you think? Are midwestern palates lacking in adventurousness, even in this day and age? Is daring dining only for the coasts? And how sophisticated can San Francisco be when—in the words of one New York commenter—”Everyone wears jeans and sneakers!”
> It’s more of a big city/small town issues that coastal or landlocked; people in big cities are exposed to more and become more adventurous eaters (witness Chicago).
There are large cities in the Midwest without a good restaurant culture… so its more than just big city/small town issues.
• San Francisco has a high population of singles and childless couples who eat out more often and thus can sustain a wide variety of dining options.
People in Omaha seem to eat out quite a bit. They just prefer buffet restaurants… and seem to think people that eat sushi are stupid & crazy.
• How adventurous and sophisticated is San Francisco’s palate anyway, when the perennial favorite dish is Zuni’s roast chicken?
Not everyone in Thailand eats Frog Testicles.
I have known highly educated people from various Midwestern states who pretty much put Ketchup on everything they eat (including steaks)… and others who think anyone that wants to branch out beyond Meat & Potatoes is plain stupid… after all that is the gold standard.
Make of that what you will.
I think it’s more that folks in the midwest haven’t been exposed to as much variety. That’s changing; we’re becoming more ethnically diverse here, too, and that will make a difference in the food that’s available both in stores and restaurants.
In conversations with folks we talk about the different things we cook, and knowing that I like different flavors & seasonings, they often will ask me about things they’re intrigued by or have seen in recipes. Oftentimes they will try them and discover that not everything has to be meat and potatoes, salt and pepper.
Humm. I am from California & both my parents grew up in LA. My mom never had chinese or mexican food until she was in her 20’s. Neither of my parents are foodies – mom still thinks indian food has a lot of peanut sauces.
So it’s more than just location.
As someone from the Midwest (being born and raised in Iowa), I’m tired of everyone being grouped into one big lump and saying that all of us are fat and aren’t interested in different cuisines or good/chowish food. Yes, there are a lot of chains you can eat at. But there are also a wide variety of very good places to eat at, if you look a little harder. I am from Iowa, and we actually have some excellent sushi. Yes, hard to believe, but I have yet to have sushi in DC that is as consistently good as places in Iowa. Also, people from outside the midwest tend to overlook the places that make the midwest unique. Currently, in Des Moines, there are traditional mexican restaurants serving excellent food, an African place that makes a tasty lunch (and is even BYOB!), and a new Afghan place. This, coupled with some excellent steak houses (not chains, but real local places) make Des Moines an excellent place to eat out in.
Perhaps part of it is ignorance? When you look at a travel guide, many midwestern locations are omitted. At best, you may get some down home farm-ish place. But if you spoke with people from the area, you would find great food at all price levels, cooked and enjoyed by people who have been all over the world.
The phrase “fly over states” says it all. Most people making such comments have never been to many of the places they speak of, so how would they know?
Just my two cents.
I have a thin skin when it comes to this issue. I am from Des Moines and have traveled around the world and dined in Thailand, Italy, France, Morocco, etc. I’ve eat $300 meals in New York and Chicago. I used to bemoan the lack of ethnic restaurants in Des Moines, but now I am equally concerned about the absence of places that take advantage of local flavors. We’ve seen a marvelous influx of immigrants in recent years — did you know Iowa is the only state in the nation with a state funded Office of Refugee Services? — and it’s had a terrific impact on our dining choices, as DCLindsey pointed out in the above post.
But we also have some great bistros and steakhouses here. Johnny Apple, that consummate foodie, loved eating in Des Moines and thought that Bistro 43 and 801 Steak and Chop were among the best restaurants anywhere. We’ve seen an influx of west coast chains and people are drawn to them here, just like they are in California. But we also have a vibrant dining scene here. An insurance exec from the east coast told me a few weeks ago, after spending 12 days in Des Moines, “I haven’t had a bad meal since I got here.”
Here is my favorite midwestern taste-bud story. I live in a mid-sized city in Wisconsin, and a local coffee house owner told me he had to change the coffee-to-water ratio twice from the roaster’s recommendations because people kept complaining that the coffee was too strong. I’ve also attended a cooking class where the main postive adjective used to describe a meal was “mild.”
I have lived all over the country and the sensibility is definitely different here, there is no getting around that.
I always have to laugh when people in the Bay Area talk about “sophisticated” “coastal” culture. First off, where exactly is the coast? From the way a lot of San Franciscans talk, the East Coast basically consists of New York, and maybe Boston or DC in a pinch. Nobody ever mentions, say, South Carolina (which certainly deserve recognition for its barbeque tradition), or the fact that plenty of small California towns are decidedly lacking in diverse cuisine.
Secondly, what does it mean to have a “sophisticated” palate? Although I grew up in the Chicago area with reasonably adventurous parents, I was a picky eater as a kid. (I doubt my childhood disdain for mushrooms, peppers, raw onions, or extremely spicy foods had much to do with being a Midwesterner.) Later, I spent several years living first in rural Vermont and later in a midsized city (about the size of Boston) in Siberia. I tried plenty of unusual dishes in Eurasia, not because I was trying to build my restaurant resume, but because you eat what’s available — or what’s introduced to you. To my surprise, I found that I liked many of these foods (mmm lake weed!) If sophistication is a matter of having a diverse diet, then it’s understandable that a person who lives in a homogenous community — or an area in which assimilation is considered critical for socioeconomic mobility — might not have access to much of the diet the “coastal” crowd enjoys.
Certainly, my eating habits diversified when I moved to the ethnically diverse Bay Area. Not only were there more colorful little holes-in-the-walls to explore, but I had local acquaintences to introduce them to me. I also have the luxury of access to an incredible variety of produce, and some of the vegetables at Berkeley Bowl and the farmers’ markets have been too interesting looking not to try. I can’t imagine a better town for my palate, and I think I’m reasonably well-versed in certain cuisines. But grill me on how to make (or find) the tastiest mashed potatoes (without wasabi, thank-you), and I’ll certainly be at a loss.
I have to say that this certainly shouldn’t be a sweeping generalization. Chicago is of course in the Midwest and chefs such as Rick Bayless, Rick Tramonto, Grant Achatz, and Shawn McClain are creating meals that are far from “bland”. Homaru Canto of Moto is doing things other chefs haven’t even dreamed of (partly because I think he is a bit of a mad scientist…brilliant…but mad). These artists and their restaurants could not survive and for that case thrive in the Midwest without the support of the people and their palates.
I am a Chicago native who only moved to LA about 1.5 years ago, and I have to say that my BF and I had more disappointing meals in LA than we care to remember…particularly when compared to the high food quality and service standards we’d come to expect as serious foodies born and raised in the Chicago dining scene. LA is mired with so many mediocre restaurants that you have to do some digging to weed them out and find the good ones. In Chicago, you can throw a dart at a map of city’s restaurants and enjoy.
I won’t even bring up San Diego’s dining scene, which by comparison makes LA seem like San Francisco. Lemonfaire already did the honor of listing the many truly great chefs that historically and currently work in Chicago, but I must call out the fact that the #1 restaurant in the country last year, was…that’s right, Grant Achatz’s Alinea. The American El Bulli. My BF and I were fortunate enough to fly back home for my birthday and experience an amazing 10 courses by the brilliant Achatz. Michael C. of Providence’s cooking seems almost infantile by comparison.
Sorry to go off on a rant, but Michael Bauer clearly hasn’t spent enough time in my hometown (which is the capital of the Midwest).
It’s a basic fact that stereotypes are based on experience. That doesn’t mean there are not exceptions to every rule, just that most such generalizations are based on observations of the activities of a significant portion of a particular population. Obviously anyone posting here is by definition interested in and exposed to food (is this a generalization, a stereotype, or both?) and therefore gets defensive about such generalizations, but it is also true that most folks anywhere in this country are not posting on this board.
I live on the East Coast but have travelled extensively throughout the US on business for the past twenty years. Traveling and dining in the midwest (Chicago aside) used to be something I dreaded because virtually all food was basic, predictable and bland. You went to the steakhouse if you wanted good food, unless a town had a noted immigrant neighborhood (like the German section of Columbus, for example) and associated restaurants. But I also remember when Washington, DC was a culinary wasteland too. Again an exception to the “coast” rule.
It is also true that things have gotten considerably better on the culinary front in most major midwestern cities and across America in general, especially where there has been an influx of immigrants from Asia or Mexico/Central America. Even today, however, when you get away from the coasts, you have to look much harder to find good food. Yes it can be found, but having talked to many restauranteurs around the country, the ones in the midwest and in small towns throughout the country have had the hardest time introducing non-traditional foods. It’s getting easier for them as globalization and multiculturalism expand, but the stereotype still holds firm in many parts of this country.
I don’t think it’s a Midweat vs. coast states issue, although I also believe there is a reason why most see Midwesterners as having bland palates… However, I’ve encountered A LOT of bland dining in areas that are supposed to be daring.
I grew up in the Bronx so I was exposed to a fair amount of diverse cuisine in New York City. But it was still quite limited – basically Italian-American stuff, Puerto Rican (even this was mostly through going to my friends’ homes for dinner, as it was in the 80s) and the ubiquitous Chinese take-out joints. Oh, and the Chinese-Cuban places my parents love going to. When I got old enough to venture to Manhattan and the other outer boroughs by myself, I ate out plenty, and found places that weren’t anything to write home about, let alone return another time.
Manhattan was shocking, since it’s supposed to be a cutting-edge culinary mecca.
Ok, that “Submit Comment” button cut me off. To cut to the chase, I’ve still had to search high and low to find dining gems in NYC. I’ve had some wonderful meals in the most unexpected places – like the Thai curry in a Flushing, NY shopping mall. But I’ve eaten much more mediocre food in New York and DC, and wouldn’t say that their overall quality is better than the midwest’s. I know a lot of East Coast folks who always stick to their tried-and-true, and hate sushi and even fried calamari because that’s too “weird” for their palates.
Just musing out loud here, but I wonder how much of this is linked to class or political attitudes… which sometimes, but not always, correlate with region or urbanism?
I can say that my foodie radar doesn’t work so well when I am in Red State territory. I just don’t get it. I want to get to that kewl authentic mom-n-pop diner or roadhouse or BBQ, but invariably I fall on my face and wind up in some dirty dive where the best thing on the menu is Jell-o. And I loathe Jell-o. Maybe the same thing is true in reverse, that people just take awhile to “read” the lay of the land, foodwise?
My best experiences with country-type food have been in the Lancaster area, eating Amish-style food. But then I grew up doing that as a “local tourist,” so again, no translation issue.
Give me a break. Of course there are exceptions, but of course the generalization is true.
You want (semi) proof? The Midwest board has 7,000 topics. The Manhattan (NY) board has 53,689 topics.
That just means people in the midwest have other things to do. Furthermore, “Midwest” is an awfully broad topic. I live several hours from MSP, so I don’t see much need to participate in discussions of what there is to eat there.
That said, the least chowish people I’ve ever known were my ex-in-laws in the suburbs of Portland. All the opportunities they had at their fingertips and their idea of a good meal was broiled chuck steak with no seasoning.
I’m a Bay Arera native who lived in Chicago 2003-2006. I also traveled to a number of Midwest cities on business (Louisville, KC, Omaha, Twin Cities, Columbus, Indianapolis) during that period. While Chicago has many first-class restaurants and a bewildering variety of cuisines, it also has plenty of eateries that still serve jurassic horrors such as Chicken Kiev. There may be places in California where you can find Chicken Kiev, but I don’t know where they are, and I don’t want to know.
As for the other cities, in each case I got recommendations from locals for “the best restaurant in town.” I did have an excellent steak in Omaha (no surprise there), but nothing more than adequate meals anywhere else.
I have Chicago friends who often asked me to make dinner for them, because my repertoire was much wider than theirs…can you imagine a weekly dinner of BOILED Italian sausages? Yuk… I remember how surprised they were to taste insalata caprese for the first time — even though they grew fab tomatoes and basil, they’d never heard of it.
It’s true that ketchup splashed on southern fried shrimp leaves a lot to be desired for a seasoned gourmet. But the matter really has little to do with spicy or bland. Bland food can be sumptuous. Just to say…I’m thinking of a simple chicken soup served at a Crimean hunting camp a few years back. The meat had a flavor that only a true free ranging fowl can have. This soup had little more in it that chicken, leek, carrot, potato and parsley, yet it’s savor was finer and more authentic than many a would be gourmet temple would serve. Please don’t get me wrong. I’ve been grinding my own spices and chilli peppers for more years than I care to remember. Exotic foods thrill me when they are truly fine. It’s just that bland tastes aren’t the issue. I go along with the tghe social issue previously mentioned. the Amish cook well not only because they rely on the freshest produce possible, and also not only because they still cherish food as a gift of god. Anyone who knows their culture immediately recognizes a trait also seen in Southern France, Spain and elsewhere. They prepare food together and when they sit down to eat, the outside world stops for them. In Southern France the parking meters stop ticking between 12p.m. and 2p.m. That’s the way it should be here, work hard, play hard and eat heartily.
I think the lack of real food culture where I live in Wisconsin has a lot to do with how little diversity there is here. That is why, of course, Chicago has to be taken out of the equation — although while there is excellent food in Chi-town, the adjective most people use to describe Chicago food is “cheap.”
And I agree with a previous poster that while I endeavor to find “heart-of-the-Midwest” gems like the Stern’s do, what I most often end up with in mom and pop diners is commercial food that sometimes has so much MSG it gives me a headache.
Being a life-long midwesterner, but visiting other places the thing you have to realize is that here the food tends to be pretty good around colleges and places where there is a lot of diversity and a lot of money, but if you leave the college areas or the cities you’ll quickly find yourself in areas with only chain restaurants and a few diner type places you might want to avoid, this has a lot to do with a limited number of people in a given area and the fact that people don’t want to pay $$$ for a food experience. People here are practical and middle class, and so most of the midwestern foodies outside of the city are in the “home cooking” section.
Go to any rural area in the USA and you’ll find local recipes of surprising depth and sophistication. This is probably more true in the great arc of the South that sweeps down from Baltimore through the Carolinas, Miss, Louisiana and on into Texas. But it’s pretty true anywhare. I know a lady who lives in Inola, Oklahoma. Every year, come July, she drives to another town a hundred miles away just to buy a special variety of peaches from an orchard there. She bakes them into pies, covered with an ethereal cream sauce. But all this is changing. I suspect her kids don’t know the recipe. Why spend all day baking a pie when you can grab a pizza at Domino’s?
Brian, you need to get the recipe from her, or someone does, and write it down so one of these days when the kids (or their kids) realize what they’re missing and want it, they won’t have to *wish* someone had gotten it from her.
Very interesting topic. Having grown up in Wisconsin, living on the west coast for 10 years now, I used to say that there was no food culture there…true, there’s not food priority there, but there is a culture for good eats (long as you don’t have to pay too much for it). The great restaurants are fewer and farther between, but the food is equally as good as you would find on the coast. The key is, look for what’s local. the odds of finding great sushi aren’t as good as finding excellent german food. it’s about heritage, population, and appreciation. How can a place keep up with good california cuisine when the freshes produce is only available 4 months a year?
It’s definitely more of a rural vs urban situation. the franchises have made it very difficult for a restaurant to compete in a rural area…and there’s more demand in a city. That’s the real situation.
That being said, saying something is bland enough for a midwestern tourist may be a stereotype…but it’s an affective comment, everyone got the point even if that “midwestern tourist” they know lives just outside of portland
Guys, everything tends to revert back to economics and exotics in this discussion. What about home cooking? Of course the great restaurants of the past have long since closed due to labor costs. Great food requires work and I can remember spending 13 hours a day washing dishes, peeling potatoes and such at a restaurant where I filled in for a friend in 1970 in Garmisch-Partenkirchen in Bavaria. These great restaurants were reasonable in price exactly because labor costs and such were sensible. Today only expensive restaurants can afford a TRAINED EXPERIENCED kitchen crew and these only survive where their clients can afford to visit them regularly. But this has little to do with local home cuisine. Our crisis can be summed up briefly. I almost get the impression that more and more people spend more free time watching the cooking channel on TV than actually cooking!
I’m a Southerner transplanted in LA, and a foodie. My parents were educated and traveled. They read widely. My mother was making Indian and Japanese food at home in the 1970’s. My parents still visit organic/ethnic groceries as entertainment. And, they instilled in me a love of good southem food. Cornbread, greens, biscuits, and a good Caramel cake are sacraments. I think this is cultural, on a micro level. I’m a great home cook, to the point that my family doesn’t care for chain restaurants. We have a few family-owned regular hangouts in our area that we patronize. Other than that, it’s making our own food. I think it’s a matter of culture, family, and education. We are surrounded by people who eat at McDonald’s and Outback every day. We live in Southern California. No one needs to eat bland corporate chain food here, but they do. And I know that I can get sublime chile in New Mexico, BBQ in Memphis, etc. Local. That’s what to do. The tragedy is how many locals no longer eat local.
Interesting–my husband and I were just arguing about this tonight, which is why I’m still awake and even interested in the topic.
My husband is from suburban Chicago with roots in Wisconsin. In his words, he “eats to eat.” Food does not excite him. I think the real issue here is culture–your ancestry, where you were born, the culture represented in your home/hometown. He and his family are just very practical people who eat to eat. They’re not going to make much of a fuss about it. As a result, perhaps, they don’t require as much from their food.
I am from western Oklahoma and, while far from having a “sophisticated” palatte (who determines sophisticated anyway?), I do really like food. I don’t necessarily like all food and am not even interested in certain things, but my view is markedly different than my husband’s. Again–culture. My family enjoyed food. It was the center of every gathering. And that was part of our Mennonite/German culture.
That aside, I’d like to say all good food is not “exotic.” And “exotic” does not necessarily mean better. If you are in an exotic locale, then yes–because exotic, in that case, is local. But if you are in Omaha–eat a great steak, be grateful for it, and don’t complain about the other options. And if you should ever find yourself within driving distance to Corn, Oklahoma (which you probably never will), go to Tina’s Cafe and have some great Mennonite food. And tell me if bland, in this case, isn’t delicious.
I’m still fairly new to this site and I’m wondering–is it snobby-foodie or just enjoy-food-foodie? I can’t quite tell . . .
There’s a world of difference in between fried onions and golden deliciously crisp and sweet freshly fried onions. Put them on top of a grilled delmonico steak topped with mushroom sauce and you have one rendition of a German classic whose quality can range from boring to brilliant depending on the meat and the cook! I think most kids would instinctively prefer the rostbraten over a pound of beluga. Some Italian gourmet friends have also shown extreme delight on occassions that I’ve dined with them over a plate of pasta with a simple garlic and oil dressing. I do believe that it is the quality of the ingredients and their preparation that determines in the first line whether a dish qualifies for the etiquette gourmet or not. I heartily agree with amsc, a great steak and good company is a fine combo. Have you ever noticed that exotic dishes that seem so exciting at first, can seem mightily boring after you’ve tried them a few times? For me, I wonder even at the second visit if the restaurant and the dish hadn’t been much better the first time. Could it be that the novelty of the flavors made it seem much better at first?
to revsharkie
I am not saying anything bad about you or Midwesterners. So please don’t feel like you have to defend yourself. Firstly, I don’t really think anyone (well, not I in any case) is denigrating bland foods per se. I think to associate exotic foods with being “sophisticated” is rather silly. I personally don’t like bland foods, but that is what makes the world goes around. Also, caring too much about good food does not (necessarily) make one a better, or worse person, nor does it make one more, or less sophisticated. It just makes that person a foodie. And we were talking about 1/ the blandness of Midwestern foods, 2/ the variety of foods in the midwest, and 3/ do Midwesterners even care? And my answer is that the generalizations are true. Midwesterners have a bland palate because they are not exposed to the variety of cuisines that are seen in NYC. Again, this is IN GENERAL. Of course there are many Midwesterners who care about (quality) foods a great deal. Again, this doesn’t really say anything about a person. I myself would much rather have a great meal than a good meal (and a good meal over a mediocre meal). But it is to my taste, not anyone else’s. I don’t think just because something is exotic that it must be good. For instance, I don’t like whale sperm (that is NOT sperm whale). On the other hand, I think fugu is really sublime.
You said:
“That just means people in the midwest have other things to do. Furthermore, “Midwest” is an awfully broad topic. I live several hours from MSP, so I don’t see much need to participate in discussions of what there is to eat there.”
There is a lot more going on in Peoria than Manhattan? Yeah, right. How would you like to pay for this Brooklyn Bridge sir? Yes, “the Midwest” is broad, but it covers a lot more people. How many people live in the Midwest versus the 8 million or so residents of NYC? The lack of interest shows that Midwesterners (in general) just don’t care as much (or maybe there is no internet in the Midwest?).
Take care.
To Devil, you actually raise an interesting point on the size of a board. Yes, the NYC board might be bigger. But then again, after living in DC for less than a year, I feel like I have a decent sense of where to eat here. The board regurgetates many of the same places and discussions. And while DC is not know for being a huge foodie/chowish city by many people there are a lot of people and restaurants.
So, imagine in the Midwest, where, yes, there are less people, and much more spread out. Plus, the board captures an absurd amount of cities. In a small city, you are much more likely to be in the “know”, that is, have a lot more information about each restaurant. A weekly reviewer can cover much more ground. You neighbor/coworker is much more likely to have been to a great percentage of the places and better to compare and give you personalize advice.
I guess the reason this angers me is that I am so tired of people making fun of places/food/areas they have never been to. Devil, have you been to the Midwest? Outside of Chicago? Outside of a hotel in any place you have been? Asked locals? I even feel bad speaking for the “Midwest” as classified by this board, as it seems to include 1/4 of the population of the country.
DC, I’m delighted to hear what you have to say. The first time I tramped through the southern provinces of France with 20, much of the food we hit was the “fuel” of the worker’s restaurants we could afford. It was inexpensive, filling, but not particularly notable. Years later, I dined like a king on menu’s in the Tarn when I lived nearby and knew where to eat. But these small, inspired restaurants weree beginning to get into troubles a few years back ( as one owner confided in me ). As it would be, most of it’s customer’s feasted on it’s 65 franc menu, a pitcher of wine included. We’re talking of course about 13 dollars, with soups, salads, and desserts comparable to Michelin * restaurants I’ve dined at. It’s what the locals could readily afford on a steady basis. The owner moaned that while the introduction of the Euro pushed their costs up 30%, the public responded best to the 65 Franc menu. They had to economize on what they offered! That noticeably lowered their high quality.
Thinking it over a bit, bland meands tasteless and uninteresting. One of the unfortunate ‘hooks’ that fast food has on a bulk of Americans is exactly the taste enhancers they use, both natural and artificial. Did you know that a certain factory in NJ produces artificial beef fat aromas to make McDonald’s fries more appetizing? I’m not condoning the practise. Just making an example! I couldn’t say that the people who eat these hunkle junkle products are searching out bland flavors! Unfortunately, it’s what thrives on the market and what the majority can afford in today’s economic atmosphere. They might even come up with an artificial flavored fugu spray. Just the right stough to make Tilapia taste like the real thing!
Looking back to 29 years abroad, there have been good and bad places to eat where ever I was. It was just a question of finding them. Wherever there were more good restaurants, it seemed that the local economy was thriving and food traditions remained intact.
Dear DCLindsey,
I thought I made it quite clear that there is nothing to be “made fun of”. Saying midwestern foods are bland is like saying that guy is tall. He is tall to me, though to Shaq, he might not be.
New Yorkers have a high “food culture” since we eat out a lot here. There are fewer families, and also, many people have tiny apartments with tiny kitchens. There are also a gazillion really good restaurants here. It all adds up to an environment that is very conducive to eating out. The only thing I think is important is that there is a larger variety of good to great restaurants in NYC than anywhere else. Most crappy places go out of business rather quickly since the competition is so fierce. If you dispute these things, well, I’ll say let’s just agree to disagree since to me, it is quite clear to be almost not an opinion, but facts.
I have been in the midwest. I have relatives in Arkansas and Texas. I also grew up in a small town, not NYC. I didn’t eat a bagel until I went to college. So I am not talking out of my (hat).
Look at the demographics of the Midwest during the early 1900’s – good hearty German-American stock migrated to the Midwest for farming and brought with it what we now call “Midwestern skepticism”. Appetites were huge and cried out for meat and potatoes. Sure we had Polish and Italian and French migrating to the larger cities and influencing palates, but you can’t argue with cultural heritage of the Midwest – we’re a skeptical bunch and for the most part we are resistant to change.
I agree with Devil and his assessment that when you eat out on a regular basis you become cultured to the different tastes offered to you and New York has more independent restaurants on one city block than most Midwestern cities alone.
I stay away from the chains as much as possible and frequent restaurants that serve locally grown fare and bring a bit of excitement into our small culinary world. I suspect however that even those restaurants fear closure if they don’t adhere to the palate standards of the area.
I’m like many Midwesterners – I brisk at the comments from “outsiders” who say “what this town needs is…” and mentally say “well then if you don’t like it then why are you here?” I don’t think Midwesterners would dare tell someone from San Francisco that they needed to change their palates to adhere to their standards and are offended that anyone would do the same to them. It’s just not polite for crying out loud!
Does Indiana care if someone from the west coast thinks we’re bland and lacking in food adventure? probably not… so we’ll just continue to eat our brain sandwiches and deep fried hog testicles.
This whole issue could be supply and demand. between fast food, processed food, and prepackaged salts/spices…we’re 40 years into this experiment which relieves us from the “burden” of preparing our own food. if processed is what people are accustomed to, then why would they yearn for something more.
There are wal-mart dominated regions of the country where the demand for fresh, vibrant, flavorful food is just not as great. So then the restaurant either can’t afford to charge more for the fresh option or has no reason to.
I was out for a nice meal at a “white tablecloth” restaurant in small-town america and ordered a duck entree that came with a cherry sauce. When my plate arrived, I was almost certain that the sauce was from a can. That’s fine at a diner, but I don’t understand why a place with a nice wine list wouldn’t put more effort into a sauce. (lack of trained chefs maybe)
I ordered the duck because it came recommended. If the customers keep coming back happy, why would the restaurant think they have to change anything?
Just a note to anyone from the coasts who wants to have a coherent discussion with someone from the Midwest.
NEVER use the phrase “flyover states.”
It’s like waving a red flag in front of a bull. And it should be. It’s like saying that everything between the Catskills and the Sierra Nevada is merely an obstacle to overcome. And even if you think that, it’s definitely fighting words.
That being said, I’ll keep eating Maytag blue cheese and burnt ends BBQ and farmer’s market tomatoes and venison sausage and pan-fried chicken and sweet corn off the cob and povitica with pounds of almonds and butter. Oh, and vindaloo and duck confit and stir-fried noodles and pretty much any other ethic/sophisticated/continental meal you like.
As me where they can be found, and I can tell you. Better yet, invite me along. We’ll have a glass of wine, and I can tell you about my city and why I love to live here and why I would never leave it to move to NYC or LA or SF. It might not be the best confit (or oyster or vindaloo or whatever) you’ve ever had, but isn’t it supposed to be about more than competition?
well said heatherkay
Haha, Heatherkay hit the nail on the head. Making fun of the Midwest, even in a joke, can set us off.
Devil, I was not trying to say that the Midwest has the best of everything, just that it does have some excellent choices (and some okay choices, and some plain bad ones). Your comments about people in the Midwest not caring about food (hence less posts), or even the quite common put down of people in the Midwest that we are not up to other parts of the country in technology (no internet!). My point was just that the communities are smaller, thus are less likely to need a huge message board to communicate the good places to eat. You can sift through them yourself, much more easily. When I go to NYC, I do look to the boards to identify potential spots quickly. But in a smaller city, its not as necessary.
Dear DCLindsey,
I’d like you to find where I said that NYC has the best of everything or where I put down the Midwest at all. But the facts remain that NYC has better restaurants and New Yorkers participate more in Chowhound. Ergo, I believe there is more food culture here. I never said ALL Midwesterners (anything). But you know, when the weather is bad, Manhattan is really miserable since you can’t catch a taxi easily (and we don’t normally drive because traffic is a nightmare). We pay 5 times the rent for an apartment 1/10 the size of your house. But you know, there are pluses and minuses to every place. I envy… your ability to turn right on red.
Generalizations usually arise from truths. And they say nothing about any particular Midwesterner or any particular Midwestern restaurant. And I believe the ones expressed in this thread are generally true. I would be entirely wrong if I just assumed that a place I am going to in Omaha is crappy. But if I had to pick a random restaurant from Omaha and compare it to a random restaurant in Manhattan, I would bet that the Manhattan one is better. And I know I will be wrong once in a while, but in the long run, I’ll be right more often than not.
Those offended are just looking for insults I think. Should I be up in arms because you call us the right/left coasts? I could not care less (hmm… maybe if I tried really hard, I can reach a higher — or is it lower? — level of apathy) if you or anyone say that Manhattan is a polluted crime ridden cesspool.
Again, I never said that all Midwesterners do not care about high quality food. It is just that on average, y’all don’t care as much. You have about 8x as many people yet there are about 1/8 the number of topics. Yes I understand that you can just holler over the white picket fence, but that cannot explain away the entire discrepany.
Dear Heather,
I am not competing with anyone, but if there is a good restaurant right next to a bad one, you should know I am eating in the good one.
peace
Boys and girls,
This whole discussion started out on two very different tracks. One was ” I think it is extremely arrogant to think people in the Midwest would not enjoy a meal that is “different or exotic.” and the other was that midwestern folks preferred bland tastes. The counter argument is that Coastal big cities like New York and San Francisco have better restaurants.
My own impression is that New York has more varied restaurants than any other place I’ve ever visited ( never been to Singapore, Hong Kong or Tokyo ) Many are excellent, but many are just so so. Some are very bland for what they are supposed to be! Most of the cooks are recent emigrees, with Mexicans often doubling for the cooks of many nations! I’ve had good Turkish, suprisingly good Yugoslavian, mediocre Argentinian, and fairly disappointing Chinese in Brooklyn as well.
A simple point remains clear. New York is one of the few places that so many varied immigrants can find a culinary audience! And they are willing to work hard to survive and establish themselves in a new country.
New York also has an old tradition of appreciating ethnic bistros going back to Craig Claiborne’s New York Times reviews and beyond… Let’s not forget Luchows and all the great ethnic neighborhood restaurants of the past. This is typical of sea port cities to a certain extent. New York has been this plus a gateway to Europe and beyond, not to mention San Francisco. No wonder it’s super!
As each wave integrates, cooking styles change as well. The great one time familiar Cantonese restaurants found all throughout New York have become somewhat rare, just as there are only a few Cuban-Chinese left from the miriad that lined upper Broadway some 30 years back.
Now, I believe that all throughout the midwest there are bunches of people who have travelled far and wide and love ‘different or exotic’ food. I imagine they cook it at home as I do, because there just ain’t 8 million folks in subway distance to keep exotic restaurants going. And they don’t live in cramped apartments with urban cabin fever forcing them out the door.
They mail order to get Krupuk and Trasi and keep Kalustyan’s busy sending out packages. Yes there must be quite a number. What do you think?
One thing is true-New Yorkers never get tired of patting themselves on the back. I guess it’s necessary to endure the Hellhole everyday and tell themselves it’s Heaven.
Michael Bauer IS a midwesterner at heart and loves Bland food AND Spicy food. His ability to enjoy both worlds certainly got lost in this thread, which consists of potshots about different regions. Sheeez.
I agree bbq, and I’m not really taking potshots; at least, I hope it doesn’t seem that way. Bauer’s point about critical mass is very similar to my own perception. I’ve seen it elsewhere however, not only in the U.S.A. and there were good parts of Germany, Italy and even France where one was mostly better off eating at home. Some 30 years back, much the same was said about India and I never found the Indian or Pakastani food I ate in NY to even compare with restaurants I frequented way back in London. The reverse was true for Chinese at the time. The Chinese restaurants around the Sorbonne in Paris were even less inspiring. In fact, I can’t remember a truly memorable Chinese meal anywhere in France, and I tried finding some good stuff many times!
Food is after all very subjective and I work helping bunches of troubled kids who swear by ‘you know what’. To them, nothing is better and the more sprinkly, gooey things in their desserts the better. Who would like to think that they are eating poor stuff anyway? In my part of Pa, most of the locals I see have their hoagy shops put a ton of hot peppers on their foot long subway sandwiches. That’s Tandoori to them. Who can blame them as long as they are happy and healthy?
Dear davidmatthews,
You said:
–quote–
One thing is true-New Yorkers never get tired of patting themselves on the back.
–end quote–
Is this a generalization or is this an absolute truth?
Well Devil,
If you look back carefully, it was bbqboy who said this and not me. Some New Yorkers can get round shoulders from patting themselves a bit too much on the back, but then again, I was born and raised there. It’s a question of whetherb they get tired or not from doing it! I do like New York traditions and egoists are pretty evenly distributed about no matter where you live.
In my response, I agreed with him mostly on Bauer’s comment but I will amplify on a point of his and put it into properly into perspective. In my experience, because of NY’s great size, one can get more lonely there than almost anywhere else; bin there, done it. New York propagates a special form of wintertime blues. Especially at evening rush hour times, I’d make sure to find a frendly hangout instead of sardining it back to Brooklyn, my old home turf. When 10 pm hit, I often had a uncontrolably feeling that I was missing out on something and beelined back to one of my old hangouts in the village or wherever in Manhattan. I was a regular at Max’s Kansas City where I rarely ate, but the steaks and chops were phenomenal. I’d hit Chinatown in between 4 to 5 am in those youthful days, walk downstairs to ( if I remember right Wo Kee ) and have a shrimp egg foo yung and an order of roast pork. The university rarely saw me before 11 am and I slept mightily little. I can’t imagine NY being more relaxed since then.
Most New Yorkers slipped away for the weekends, I’d go fly fishing, and the truly inveterate never were able to stay away very long. My own capacity is now based on a European wife and 4 setters who feel happier in the country. I’m also a wild mushroom collector and hunt gamebirds to vary my menu. Can’t do that much in NYC these days.
My two kids live and work in NYC. Whenever I visit, I’m amazed at the diversity of the cuisine there. I’ve eaten the best Cevapçiçi since Munich in Astoria ( look it up, it’s a little Sarayevo bistro), the Thai in Astoria I tried put any Thai restaurant I tried in France to shame ( I did find one Thai resto on the outskirts of Nurenberg that was absolutely stunning ), and who would think that they could eat real lamachun on 86th St. in Brooklyn; really good lamachun at the Istanbul . The few stops I’ve made in Chinatown were a big disappointment compared to even 20 years back!
Yes, you do not find these bistros in smalltown America. But your focus is on restaurants and mine is on taste! Is it possible that business and regional cuisine are two different things? What happens in private homes? I don’t have a definitive answer, but ideally regional cuisine is a triad of home, bistro and grand cuisine.
Sorry David!
No reason to be sorry! As long as we’re not starving, food should be a fun topic; especially for foodies.
Tons of years back, I had a friend named Pasca who lived on the lower east side when it was still a fairly risky place to travel. Pasca is a second or third generation Roumanian who loved to cook at the time. Haven’t seen her in years. I’d pop up and inevitably during the evening, she insisted I eat something. When I’d say I’m okay, she’d offer me a breaded veal chop or such. Who could say no. She’s turn a veal chop into something most three star cooks would envy. It wasn’t that anything was particularly spicy. It was the perfection of the flavor of veal and a heavenly even golden crust that I haven’t been able to reproduce in the 36 years since. Everything else she made was quite as wonderful. The point is that she would turn the simplest thing into something scrumptous. Her dishes were mostly old standards, an excellent steak here and an apricot pie to boot.
Now I myself consider THAT one of the most important dimensions of “gourmet” dining – creating divine dishes with what you have on hand. Naturally, the fresher that is and more flavorful, so much the better. Diversity can be created by very few ingredients. In fact, aside from the foie gras, tripes and more varied lesser cuts, our supermarkets have infinitely more variety than the average French or Spanish one. Yet a good number there enjoy three course meals at home daily. How many of us do?
This is something I would like to hear about.
To play on stereotypes with a large amount of truth backing them:
1. Quality chefs in the Midwest seem much more likely to be urged to hone their crafts for families rather than to make the jump to culinary school.
2. San Francisco and New York City certainly aren’t turning heads with novel takes on German or Swedish cooking.
3. Well, who do you think is offering the chefs their raw materials? With the exception of private, local providers, the Midwest is almost wholly responsible for America’s agricultural/harvesting superpower status.
GhaleonQ…”the Midwest is almost wholly responsible for America’s agricultural/harvestng superpower status?”
Well, sure, if you mean wheat, corn and soybeans and mass-produced meat. But California is tops in most other things.
California’s climate ceratinly will make a difference if one wants fresh garden produce spring or fall. Can’t imagine pacific fish flopping about in the corn fields either. Yet some kitchen magicians are able to come up with incredibly varied delicious menus using much less. Just as a case in point. Austrian nobility, possessing the means to choose most anything at the height of their power, very often chose tafelspitz; which is nothing other than a cut of choice sirloin slowly simmered together with carrots, onion, parsnip, celery root and a few others found most anywhere in winter. Some of the Austrian savory strudels acommpanying these dishes are treats for the gods.
I’m not saying I don’t adore fresh fish and salad. Variety is the spice of life!
I’m from Oregon and we just recently moved to Nebraska. There really is a difference. The sushi is all based on imitation crab (or it’s not fresh). You could probably order some form of beef at any restaurant you visit here. The one thing I truly miss, however, is good pizza. Greasy cardboard with hamburger on it doesn’t really fly for me. I want to be able to order jerk chicken, kalamata olives and feta cheese on my pizza. Oh, and good ice cream. I really miss my tillamook mudslide.
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.